Let's get Filosofical...

[visigani]

Just what *are* dragons?

[Slipperychicken]

Mythical creatures typically portrayed as flying, fire-breathing lizards?

[Red Fel]

Delicious.

[A.A.King]

Our lords and masters

[AMFV]

Green, seething fire breathing monsters. They have red eyes, lion's heads, and wings dark as night. They have gleaming teeth and are usually at least fifty feet in height. They have lashing tails, scaly feet, and are known to tear steeples down, and crack streets.

[Diovid]

It depends. It sounds like you adhere to a realist position where different 'things' can be seperated in 'nature' based on some 'essence' or some 'properties' which differs those 'things' from other 'things'. Your question then is, what is the 'essence' or what are the 'properties' of those things we call 'dragons', correct?

[Maginomicon]

Our soon-to-be exes.

@OP Could you be more specific as to what kind of context we're supposed to work with here?

[Big Fau]

Spellcasters with better BAB and HP.

[hymer]

Incarnations of greed.

[Pokonic]

Spellcasters with better BAB and HP.

Spellcasters with natural weapons and with the ability to fly as a non-magical ability.

[Hyena]

...and was he a dragon, that shapeshifted into a wizard, or was he a wizard that shapeshifted into a dragon?

[Zero grim]

Less skillful then rogues

[Lord Raziere]

awesome and something that should be playable in their own roleplaying game.

[Morcleon]

A fictional creature created in ancient legends that has been brought back in modern times as the idea of a mythical beast. :smallbiggrin:

[Malak'ai]

Just what *are* dragons?

Beings that know how to spell...

[Captnq]

Well... I think of them this way...

If I were to research a spell that let me cast a 9th level version of Hoard Gullet that I would maximize, widen, empower, and extend, I would give it to the biggest couple of dragons I could find and have them cast it. Then, while the king was away on business, I would have them dig under a castle and eat everything they could find, swallowing everything whole.

When the king returned and asked what happened to the foundation of his home, I would calmly inform him that it had become-


(You don't want do. Trust me)

a dungeon in dragons

(don't say I didn't warn you.)

[Demonic_Spoon]

Dragons were the first species in the world, back when it was non-organic. Everything they ate, became organic and magical, when it was shat out. From that ****, mortal races were born and from that magic, they have gained souls.

Dragons can survive on a diet of rocks you know...

[Seclora]

Dragons are the superior beings. they have more HD, more attacks, magic, spell-like abilities, damage reduction, spell resistance, natural immunities, a flight speed as fast as a sprinting barbarian(with the run feat), and a supernatural breath weapon.
And as if that weren't enough, they are also as smart, on average, as 8 bears who have somehow had their intellegence combined in such a way as to create a single bear with an intellegence of 16, rather than just 8 bear brains with 2 Int each.

[Norin]

Minor bumps in the road towards my hoards of treasure.

[TuggyNE]

Dragons are half of the name of the game. Which must mean they're pretty important, no?

[Captnq]

Just what *are* dragons?
NOT WORTH EXPERIENCE POINTS ALIVE!!!


(an oldie but goodie.)

[Kalmageddon]

Possibly the strongest creature in the game if the GM plays smart and customize their feats a little.

[ArqArturo]

“Puff, the Magic Dragon, lived by the sea, and frolicked in the Autumn Mist in a land called Honah Lee, little Jacky Paper loved that rascal Puff, and gave him strings and sealing wax and other fancy stuff.”

Seriouly, the dragon is one of those creatures that should be rare enough to be legend, strong enough to make hills run to the hills, breathe fire hot enough to melt stone, have scales so tough that even magic can't go through it, have a roar so strong loud your ears bleed and makes it seem as if the sky is falling and the earth is cracking.

And yet, it only is nothing but a big meaty bag of XP and gold.

[visigani]

For example... are dragons the "elementals" of the prime material plane? If an earth elemental is the fundamental creature of the elemental plane of earth... is that what dragons are to the prime material plane?

[The Grue]

That's a really neat idea for a setting mythology, actually...

[Daftendirekt]

Flying, scaled, death-breathing cats with magic.

Seriously, even the Draconomicon says they're more like cats than reptiles.

[AzureKnight]

dragons prove with the existance of half dragons, in dnd there are a lotta people ok with beastiality lol.

[Red Fel]

For example... are dragons the "elementals" of the prime material plane? If an earth elemental is the fundamental creature of the elemental plane of earth... is that what dragons are to the prime material plane?

I... Don't think the Prime actually has anything that would be considered an Elemental. The nature of the Prime is specifically that it is so many things overlapping and intermixing. I doubt it's fundamentally anything except itself.

Dragons are... Dragons. They're their own type. They are uniquely draconic. There is no non-dragon which is quite as dragony as a dragon.

They are that to which other things may aspire. Dragon Disciples, Dragon Devotees, Dragonwrought Kobolds, Half-dragons, Spellscales, Dragonborn, and so forth... They have bits of dragon-ness to them. But dragons are something apart from the rest of everything else.

Dragons are dragons, chief. Just go with it.

[Hamste]

Big versions of Kobolds.

[CyberThread]

Dragons if you look at this diagram

http://origami.island-three.net/diagrams/dragon_diag3.gif

You can tell by this diagram, that dragons are clearly, animated objects

[Agent 451]

Awesome costumes that come out to dance every year near the end of January to mid February.

http://dragondanceperformance.com/images/Chinese_New+Year_traditions.jpg

[visigani]

I... Don't think the Prime actually has anything that would be considered an Elemental. The nature of the Prime is specifically that it is so many things overlapping and intermixing. I doubt it's fundamentally anything except itself.

Dragons are... Dragons. They're their own type. They are uniquely draconic. There is no non-dragon which is quite as dragony as a dragon.

They are that to which other things may aspire. Dragon Disciples, Dragon Devotees, Dragonwrought Kobolds, Half-dragons, Spellscales, Dragonborn, and so forth... They have bits of dragon-ness to them. But dragons are something apart from the rest of everything else.

Dragons are dragons, chief. Just go with it.

If there was anything in the prime material plane that could be considered "fundamental" dragons would be it.

In fact, notice how there's a distinct *absence* of dragons discussed in terms of anywhere other than the prime material plane?

Sure, you might find a dragon here or there, but no where are they considered as ubiquitous as the prime material plane.

There are entire races of halflings warped by the outer planes... but not so the dragons.

Elves? Dwarves? You name it. But dragons? There's a good chance a flight of prismatic dragons couldn band together and go wreck the ever living ****e out of Asmodeus.

Or just join the blood war and change the balance of power in the universe.

[lunar2]

If there was anything in the prime material plane that could be considered "fundamental" dragons would be it.

In fact, notice how there's a distinct *absence* of dragons discussed in terms of anywhere other than the prime material plane?

Sure, you might find a dragon here or there, but no where are they considered as ubiquitous as the prime material plane.

There are entire races of halflings warped by the outer planes... but not so the dragons.

Elves? Dwarves? You name it. But dragons? There's a good chance a flight of prismatic dragons couldn band together and go wreck the ever living ****e out of Asmodeus.

Or just join the blood war and change the balance of power in the universe.

well, incarnum dragons are native to the outer planes. so yeah, there are dragons warped by the planes, as well.

[Raven777]

If there was anything in the prime material plane that could be considered "fundamental" dragons would be it.

In fact, notice how there's a distinct *absence* of dragons discussed in terms of anywhere other than the prime material plane?

Sure, you might find a dragon here or there, but no where are they considered as ubiquitous as the prime material plane.

There are entire races of halflings warped by the outer planes... but not so the dragons.

Elves? Dwarves? You name it. But dragons? There's a good chance a flight of prismatic dragons couldn band together and go wreck the ever living ****e out of Asmodeus.

Or just join the blood war and change the balance of power in the universe.

*Cough*... Shadow Dragons... *cough*... Primal Dragons... *cough*...

[Red Fel]

If there was anything in the prime material plane that could be considered "fundamental" dragons would be it.

In fact, notice how there's a distinct *absence* of dragons discussed in terms of anywhere other than the prime material plane?

Sure, you might find a dragon here or there, but no where are they considered as ubiquitous as the prime material plane.

There are entire races of halflings warped by the outer planes... but not so the dragons.

Elves? Dwarves? You name it. But dragons? There's a good chance a flight of prismatic dragons couldn band together and go wreck the ever living ****e out of Asmodeus.

Or just join the blood war and change the balance of power in the universe.

Not true. I seem to recall dragons being described as quite active in one of the wild planes (Bytopia, maybe? I don't have my book in front of me). And let's not forget that Bahamut makes his home in Celestia, with his golden menagerie, and Tiamat in the other place.

The fact is, tons of things are ubiquitous in the Prime that aren't so in other parts of the planes. Just about the only things that are ubiquitous elseplanes are Outsiders. Dragons are hardly unique in that regard.

[avr]

If dragons are the elementals of the Prime Material Plane, then people are made of dragon-stuff. I'm not totally sure that works.

Also dragons are often smart and elementals are really, really dumb.

Now, dragons as the genies of the Prime, that might work.

[gurgleflep]

Giant winged lizards that guard my treasure until I decide they are unworthy of doing so :smallamused:

[AuraTwilight]

Uh, there's literally breeds of dragons for every Outer or Inner plane, Visigani.

[Pickford]

visigani:

Just what *are* dragons?

Obviously they're the top enforcer of the Big Bad. :D
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon

[Slipperychicken]

The SRD has an answer. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType)

Here's a RAW definiton of "dragon".

Dragon Type

A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.

[ben-zayb]

If there was anything in the prime material plane that could be considered "fundamental" dragons would be it.

In fact, notice how there's a distinct *absence* of dragons discussed in terms of anywhere other than the prime material plane?

Sure, you might find a dragon here or there, but no where are they considered as ubiquitous as the prime material plane.I suggest reading the Draconomicon for all the fun dragony stuff. It also teaches people that there are planar dragons.


Dragons are everything.
All that once was and all that will be!
They control Time and Space!
Love and Death!
They can see into your mind!
They can see into your SOUL!

[visigani]

I suggest reading the Draconomicon for all the fun dragony stuff. It also teaches people that there are planar dragons.


Dragons are everything.
All that once was and all that will be!
They control Time and Space!
Love and Death!
They can see into your mind!
They can see into your SOUL!

Ahhh, so you wanna be a prick about it? Cool.

But you kind of missed the point. More likely you caught it, but with your intense need to be as absolutely snotty as possible like a good little troll you conveniently snipped that bit out:


There are entire races of halflings warped by the outer planes... but not so the dragons.

Elves? Dwarves? You name it.

In virtually every instance where you have a humanoid race that has a extraplanar origin the plane in question altered *them*.

You read it over and over again in the dragonomicon you so stupidly quoted... "Native to", "Native to", "Native to".

They are, almost to the last, the embodiment of the plane of their origin. Which was the point I was making to begin with.

Next time, maybe think a little before you run your mouth.

[Raezeman]

my first choice for a pet.

[Red Fel]

Ahhh, so you wanna be a prick about it? Cool.

But you kind of missed the point. More likely you caught it, but with your intense need to be as absolutely snotty as possible like a good little troll you conveniently snipped that bit out:



In virtually every instance where you have a humanoid race that has a extraplanar origin the plane in question altered *them*.

You read it over and over again in the dragonomicon you so stupidly quoted... "Native to", "Native to", "Native to".

They are, almost to the last, the embodiment of the plane of their origin. Which was the point I was making to begin with.

Next time, maybe think a little before you run your mouth.

Visigani, no need for name calling.

If this is going to be another thread where you "announce" your headcanon as if it were actual canon, and then start insulting anyone who says otherwise if not outright ignoring them, I strongly advise you to reconsider that decision.

[Angelalex242]

Dragons:

They're friends and allies (and mounts when I get really high level, and possibly even lovers if I'm in a Half Dragon Creating Mood...) if they happen to look like metal. (Yay for Eragon and/or Chronicles of Pern Ripoff Paladins!)
They guard my future treasure if they happen to look like colors. (Sorry, Chromatic Dragons, but unless I've got a sanctify the wicked spell lying around, you guys are dragonburgers that haven't been chopped yet)

[Brookshw]

The race created by Io, originatal creator of understood existence? Really Freaking powerful arrogant things that we're vermin next to? At least as far as true dragons go. Now apparently they come in fun sized kobold shapes for whatever reason.:smallconfused:

[Razanir]

Big versions of Kobolds.

Children of Pun-Pun

[Segev]

If you want to compare Dragons to Outsiders, they're not Elementals; they're the "fiends/angels of the Prime." They are the top dog supernatural beings of the Prime by nature.

As ever, a high-level PC-classed individual of just about any race (but the less LA and racial HD, the better, as a general rule) can out-strip them, but they're the 'default' top-of-the-magical-and-physical-food-chain.

Yes, dragons exist on other planes; they tend to be roughly on par with the mid-to-upper-eschelons of the Fiend-equivalents of such planes.

[ben-zayb]

As have already been pointed out, you're giving some vague concept with a definition twisted to fit your idea. My advice is to try searching for the actual definition of fundamental, figure out what "fundamental to plane X" really implies in the context of D&D, and ponder for a moment to realize why fundamental isn't a synonym for embodiment.

But for a moment, for the sake of sound logical argument, let's assume that your definitions/statements actually make a modicum of sense.

Ahhh, so you wanna be a prick about it? Cool.

But you kind of missed the point. More likely you caught it, but with your intense need to be as absolutely snotty as possible like a good little troll you conveniently snipped that bit out:



In virtually every instance where you have a humanoid race that has a extraplanar origin the plane in question altered *them*.

You read it over and over again in the dragonomicon you so stupidly quoted... "Native to", "Native to", "Native to".

They are, almost to the last, the embodiment of the plane of their origin. Which was the point I was making to begin with.

Next time, maybe think a little before you run your mouth.
So, let me get this straight... feel free to correct me by the way. :smallwink:
Premise 1 (c/o you): Dragons are supposedly the *elementals*/*embodiments*/*fundamentals* of their plane of origin. (see quoted statement above)
Premise 2 (c/o you): The Prime Material plane have chromatic and metallic dragons (among other kind of dragons) that are "Native to" the P.M. plane.
Premise 3 (c/o me): There also exist other kind of dragons as Planar Dragons, which as I stupidly quoted (that's very original, by the way, keep that up), are "Native to" each of their respective Outer Planes

Your Conclusion/Point/etc.: Dragons are the embodiment of the material plane by virtue of a subset of the dragonkind being native to the material plane... :smallbiggrin:

What's that term again? Is it called non-sequitur? When your conclusion is in direct contradiction with one of the premise, I suggest reeevaluating your position.

Let me present simpler reasons (easier to intellectually digest :smallwink:) for the prevalence of Dragons in the material plane:
the material plane simply host an extremely diverse population in terms of types/subtypes/monsters/subraces
dragons, by far, are the posterboys/girls/animals for high-fantasy fiction culture
the primary setting in general is the Prime Material plane
the game where P.M. plane is the primary setting and where heroes fight monsters/villains is called... wait for it... Dungeons & Dragons

[AmberVael]

While I have actually used the elemental dragon premise myself and found it to be pretty cool (I'm very tempted to go off on a very long spiel about that setting here, but I'll restrain myself unless specifically asked), the default setting of D&D clearly doesn't do so. First, there are actual elementals. Second, the most exemplary and elemental of creatures for the other planes are the Outsiders... angels for the heavens, demons for abyss, yadda yadda yadda. Dragons can't really compete with that, so they're probably something else, yeah?

Also, the Material plane doesn't really have a major theme to have an elemental or outsider for. That's intentional- it is the point of convergence, the center and the melting pot of the intersecting planes. But if I had to pick something to be the material plane elemental? It wouldn't be dragons. I'd pick giants.



Dragons are everything.
All that once was and all that will be!
They control Time and Space!
Love and Death!
They can see into your mind!
They can see into your SOUL!

Really? T-the dragons can do all that?
Heh, no.

[lunar2]

dragons are smart dinosaurs that breath fire.

[Deadline]

Ahhh, so you wanna be a prick about it? Cool.


Just what *are* dragons?

Apparently, they are this week's excuse for visigani to start a flame war. And then promptly get outmaneuvered by ben-zayb.

Next time, start a Monkday thread when you want to say all the mad words.

That said, I do like me some dragons. One of the more entertaining ideas I've seen for their introduction into a setting is the concept of the Dragonfall. That is, "meteorites" (dragon eggs) fall to the surface from space on a very infrequent cycle. The dragons hatch, ravage the land, and as they finally mature to a stage where they are ready to procreate, they fly up into space where they lay their eggs and then die (kind of like the spawning of the salmon).

[ArqArturo]

That said, I do like me some dragons. One of the more entertaining ideas I've seen for their introduction into a setting is the concept of the Dragonfall. That is, "meteorites" (dragon eggs) fall to the surface from space on a very infrequent cycle. The dragons hatch, ravage the land, and as they finally mature to a stage where they are ready to procreate, they fly up into space where they lay their eggs and then die (kind of like the spawning of the salmon).

Space dragons?.

[Ailowynn]

I like the "incarnations of greed" one...


(Also, I may be missing something, but I do believe that "philisophical" is spelled with a ph, not an f).

[Brookshw]

I like the "incarnations of greed" one...


(Also, I may be missing something, but I do believe that "philisophical" is spelled with a ph, not an f).

Not if you're George Bernard Shaw, he did have a point about not tying ourselves to antiquated spelling when English evolved beyond the (then) standard. V's spelling actually uses the patterns he suggested (fish - phish?) Learning pronunciation is a massive challenge when you look at the language as written. Consider the different stresses placed on the "e" in "she" and "the" for a simple example. English is more broken than 3.5 could ever hope to be.

[ben-zayb]

Apparently, they are this week's excuse for visigani to start a flame war. And then promptly get outmaneuvered by ben-zayb.Oh no, namedropping is bad! Next thing you know, someone'll cry foul because I'm allegedly a fan favorite

[BrokenChord]

I question why somebody would ask the forums what dragons are when they have such a strong-minded and unwilling-to-be-argued definition of what a dragon is...

Anyway, I'd say that overall, I think they're danged good gishes from a mechanical standpoint, and they make some absolutely awesome fights for all optimization levels if they're played intelligently, so they really warrant space in many campaigns. One questions how they became so intelligent without opposable thumbs, though... That's fantasy for you, I guess.

[TuggyNE]

I question why somebody would ask the forums what dragons are when they have such a strong-minded and unwilling-to-be-argued definition of what a dragon is...

Anyway, I'd say that overall, I think they're danged good gishes from a mechanical standpoint, and they make some absolutely awesome fights for all optimization levels if they're played intelligently, so they really warrant space in many campaigns. One questions how they became so intelligent without opposable thumbs, though... That's fantasy for you, I guess.

They exercised their cheeseforging genes a little too much, and their netmaking genes not enough.

Oh wait, wrong thread. Carry on, citizens.

[Curmudgeon]

Just what *are* dragons?
Filo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filo) (also spelled phyllo, fillo) dough is certainly available in Sofia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofia) — it's a staple of Greek and Balkan cuisines — but I'm not sure how that applies to your question. Are you planning some exotic pastry dish that requires Bulgarian dragons? :smallconfused:

[137beth]

These gusy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding) in disguise.

[nyjastul69]

Dragons are RAWR!