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View Full Version : Building a Legend of Zelda style dungeon.



Agrippa
2013-10-27, 05:56 PM
I've taken this to two other sites before coming here. Hopfully I'll get more helpful replies.

Taking inspiration from post 12 in the "Things I'm no longer allowed to do in Exalted" (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=14476) thread I'd like to ask something. How would you devise a Zelda game like dungeon for a tabletop game, D&D style or otherwise? Complete with platforms to climb and jump as well weakened walls, ceilings and floors, ripe for the strategic deployment of explosives. Maybe even ways to make some of the boss monsters like Trinexx (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Trinexx), Arrghus (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Arrghus), the Helmasaur King (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Helmasaur_King), Kholdstare (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Kholdstare) and Vitreous (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Vitreous) into more party suitible foes.

DigoDragon
2013-10-28, 08:14 AM
Do you mean like the classic old school Zelda games on NES/SNES? It's fairly easy. Those dungeons are basically interconnected rooms forming a maze-like pattern. Just play the games for a while (or watch a play-through) for some inspiration. It should come to you quickly.

The best way to show weakened walls is to describe them in hints when you give a description of the room. For example, you could say "To the north of this room, you notice a section of the wall is heavily cracked, as if the wall is crumbling from decay." This should clue the PCs in to using explosives (or a big hammer if you allow alternatives).

It's all in the description. :smallsmile:

As for boss monsters, just look for similar things in the system you're using and play around with it. For example, in D&D 3.5, I used the Gargantuan animal template on a spider to make my Gohma boss. I gave it some decent DR and added a tidbit that it's giant eye didn't have the DR (-4 to aim at it).

lytokk
2013-10-28, 12:53 PM
I'd think that most of the LoZ levels could be easily translated into dungeons for most any games. Only things to remember are that rooms need to have enemies and puzzles. Since some of the puzzles could take up an entire room, it may help to have props to set up on a map (IE block puzzles).

The standard "the door is locked until the party defeats all the bad guys" could be replaced with a simple search check to locate the lever to open the door, low enough DC to not be hard to find, but high enough so that it wouldn't have been easily spotted mid combat.

Locked doors are a challenge since a skill monkey could just pick the lock, but you could get away with having oddly shaped mechanisms or pieces of the doors counterweight system missing that are found in another part of the dungeon.

Also, remember Link can survive a much higher fall that most PCs could. And he can always break pots to regenerate health and magic.

Water temples are still going to be the bane of the player's existence.

inexorabletruth
2013-10-28, 02:34 PM
Well… I'd start with a world map. You seem to prefer "A Link to the Past" which is a fairly extensive and detailed map. I did a quick google search and found this (http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/categories/A_Link_to_the_Past/Manual_Scans/Other/media/z3map.jpg). Now that you have a map, you have your layout, locations of dungeons, and terrain.

As for what kind of obstacles you would experience once inside a dungeon, that's fairly simple, but you will need to pick a game platform before going any further. I play D&D 3.5, so my next step would be to crack open the old Dungeon Master's Guide and look up "Dungeon Terrain" found on page 59. Special floors, like platforms are detailed on pg. 60. Walls are found on pg. 59. Ceilings elements and floors are found throughout the chapter. Explosives would be under traps on page 67.

About the monsters, you may have to get creative with your homebrew here, but there are similar monsters.

Visually, the Trinexx makes me think of a Horrid (https://eberron-hok.obsidianportal.com/wikis/horrid-animal-template) Multi-Headed (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20020621a) Turtle. Use the Horrid template from Eberron and Multi-Headed template from MMM1. Snapping Turtle can be found in Stormwrack, on pg 168

Visually, the Arrghus looks a lot like a Flumph… but that's an older edition, so lets see what templates we can do to create this creature. I'd use a Director from Lords of Madness, pg. 137 as a foundation for this one.

There are lots of creatures that could fit the bill for Helmasaur King, but the first one that comes to mind is a Spiked Felldrake, from Draconomicon, pg. 161 (add a breath weapon, of course).

Kholdstare just begs to be a Beholder Mage. Fluff it as being covered in ice, and focus your attack strategy on magic attacks that cause opponents to lose their turn.

Vitrious is easily another Beholder subtype. But for it's mini-eyes, I found a homebrew monster (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Floating_Eye_(3.5e_Monster)) you may be interested in. They even have lightning attacks… because homebrews have everything. I haven't checked to see if it's balanced, or even a good build. Sorry, you'll have to do some of the research yourself. :smalltongue:

Xefas
2013-10-28, 07:19 PM
How would you devise a Zelda game like dungeon for a tabletop game, D&D style or otherwise?

The party arrives in a dark room, lit almost entirely by a single flame in a torch bracket adjacent to the entrance. On the far side, illuminated by many tiny pinpricks of radiance, is a second door, and an unlit brazier.

This room is a cosmic gulf, ten thousand terameters in length, its many cobblestones an endless swirling eddy of countless planetoids. The torch? The empyrean galactic heart of the heavenly vault, source of all life in the cosmos. The brazier? The titanic supine form of this world's creator, a corpse lain upon the barrier between this universe and the door beyond time, where the End Beast devours every moment our lives feed it, awaiting the tail of the time-line when all is returned to darkness.

You are but men, armed only with the spacefaring vessel, the SS Hookshot, and the reincarnated Mythic Hearts (http://mythenderrpg.com/) of those champions who fell before you, or were led astray, or became the very Gods that your people struck down long ago.

Take the torch. Cross the room. Light the brazier. Open the door. Defeat the boss.

Become the Heroes of Time.

Axinian
2013-10-28, 07:43 PM
Its somewhat difficult in my experience actually, at least if you're trying to make dungeons resembling anything beyond the first 2 games or so. This is because a lot of the challenges presented in the games rely on arbitrary restrictions that don't really apply in D&D. Often times this manifests in surfaces that cannot be climbed or bypassed by Link, but if you were allowed total freedom you easily could scale it. In the case of puzzles, PCs often come up with solutions that break the puzzle apart. PCs will find ways around doors that supposedly require a key.

So basically you need to design dungeons without those arbitrary restrictions... which is just a normal D&D dungeon. So yeah.

Ghost Nappa
2013-10-28, 07:45 PM
Generic Dungeons LoZ Dungeons:
Forest
Mountain and/or Volcano
Lake and/or Ocean
Inside of a Giant Creature (like a Whale)
Shadow or Darkness
Eerie Hyper-religious area of super plot importance and +6 Magic Swords
Illusion places
Time-manipulation ruins
Evil Castles

Generic LoZ Loot things:
Bombs
Bows and Arrows
Slingshots
Shields
Money
Boots (Iron, Hover, etc.)
Armor, Clothes, etc.
Boomerangs
Small Magical Musical Instruments (Ocarina, Flute, Harp)
Handheld chain wall grabber (Hookshot, Clawshot)
Health Buffs (Heart Containers)
Magic Jumping Things (Roc's Feather)
Magic Running Things (ALttP Charging Boots)
Magic Shooting Things (Wands)
Magic Swimming Things (Raft, Water Tunic, Zora Armor)
Magic Scouting Things (The Beetle)
Magic Teleporting Things (Ooccoo, Farore's Wind,
Magic Smashing Things (Hammers, Ball and Chain)
Magic Spells (Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, Farore's Wind)
Bottles (to kidnap fairies)


Important NPCs:
Damsel in Distress who can't do things by herself but has important jobs politically and stunning and creating openings in boss fights.

Quirky Hometown Friends (Groose, Mido & Kokiri, Beth & Friends, etc.)

Craftsmen who improve gear (+DMG, +Ammo, + Durability, etc.)

invinible
2013-10-28, 10:48 PM
I think this link (http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/what-legend-of-zelda-can-take-us-about-dungeon-design/) explains what you are going for the best.

erikun
2013-10-28, 11:41 PM
You might want to take a look at some earlier adventure games, with Zork coming to mind. Legend of Zelda was not the first game to do the whole "make your want through a dungeon" idea, and while some of these games can be quite limiting when compared to a PnP RPG, there are some pretty good ideas on how to make solutions for the typical "get out of a room" situation.

TheThan
2013-10-29, 02:18 AM
I've heard of people calling their Dm out on copying Legend of Zelda dungeons before.

So I suggest that any dungeon you create be based entirely on your own designs. It's OK to take inspiration from legend of Zelda, but I don't recommend copying it directly.

AMFV
2013-10-29, 03:14 AM
The big thing is not to get completely hung up on one solution. Since it isn't an RPG, normally I like to have at least three possible solutions to any problem, and then I roll with it if the players come up with something I didn't foresee. Since it's more fun to progress than to sit in a room trying to figure out how to go forward.

The main thing is to have a pretty focused theme too, that's a pretty much standard thing for the Zelda dungeons. In D&D this could be done with templates in other games you could use other methodologies.

Again just make sure there are more solutions, since things that are obvious to you may not always be obvious to your players.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-30, 12:11 AM
Depends on what you actually want out of your dungeon. Replicating the feeling of solving a Zelda dungeon is...difficult...due to the different constraints on problem solving Zelda has. PCs would not tolerate the kind of creative limitations necessary to make a Zelda dungeon work, unless they understand going into it what they can and can't do.

My advice for the best thing to replicate that feeling: Give the players tools. Either at chargen or through the dungeon or through the plot/questgiver/whatever - give them tools that let them mechanically solve certain problems. This works best at a lower level, when the number of ways players have to leverage 'outside' resources is small, helped by the dungeon being remote enough that they can't start getting silly in terms of getting additional help. Tools don't have to be specific or legendary items - even things like grappling hooks, climbing pins, torches have uses, and if the party is well prepared, they'll have them (and if not, you can make sure they're well prepared OOCly, or provide resupply some other way - like failed adventurers who had the right idea but not the combat chops).

Other archetypal "Zelda" things to do:

Put "doors" in the dungeon that are locked by things found later in the dungeon. For example, have certain areas of the dungeon overgrown with a hostile magical weed, which makes them all by impassable - until you find the Fire Gauntlets. Or certain tunnels that have been caved in by loose stone, again impassable until you defeat the miniboss and get the Stonebreak Hammer. The article warns against this but I'm less worried; if the dungeon is properly populated with monsters, most players will know better than to rush on ahead without the party.

Start small with the tools that you give the player. Give them "test cases" that require them to learn to use the tool, and what the tool can be used for - and then ramp things up. Okay, you used the Gauntlets of Fire to clear out the Killweed; now there's a Killweed root infesting the next room and you need to take it out to proceed. How do you get close enough without being overwhelmed? Combine tools and geometry to make this work. Maybe you need to selective collapse sections of a maze to allow yourself through.

You have an advantage in that you have multiple people and multiple skill sets. For example, the rogue with the grappling hook might be needed to scout above, while the fighter and magic caster take directions from the rogue to solve the puzzle. Or maybe the mage needs to decipher scripts while the other party members physically trigger mechanisms (requiring a combination of acrobatics and raw strength).

Dungeon-wide puzzles: things like providing power, water, light, etc, to an otherwise non-functioning dungeon are probably the best model for this (that's not overly cheesy, like the water temple), but also destroying certain monsters can have this effect. Once the sub-boss is dead, whatever effect they were having on the place diminishes (and you usually get a neat toy out of it).

Oh, and give players somewhere to rest. Zelda games let you restock resources reasonably frequently, and for good reasons: the dungeons can be punishing if you screw up, and unlike Zelda, DnD players don't act like they have unlimited continues (well, not all the time). When they get beaten, give them options to fall back. This can be tense and threatening, especially if you have wandering/respawning monsters, and it should be - but they should never feel afraid to try things and expend resources because those resources are effectively irreplaceable.

Hrm. This is an interesting design puzzle. Gimme a few days and I should be able to come up with a good model for a 3rd level dungeon...though I should note that there's some degree to which any Zelda-esque dungeon must be tailored to a party.

Alejandro
2013-10-30, 09:36 AM
Make sure there is an impossible to kill chicken.

Frosty
2013-10-30, 02:15 PM
Depends on what you actually want out of your dungeon. Replicating the feeling of solving a Zelda dungeon is...difficult...due to the different constraints on problem solving Zelda has. PCs would not tolerate the kind of creative limitations necessary to make a Zelda dungeon work, unless they understand going into it what they can and can't do.

My advice for the best thing to replicate that feeling: Give the players tools. Either at chargen or through the dungeon or through the plot/questgiver/whatever - give them tools that let them mechanically solve certain problems. This works best at a lower level, when the number of ways players have to leverage 'outside' resources is small, helped by the dungeon being remote enough that they can't start getting silly in terms of getting additional help. Tools don't have to be specific or legendary items - even things like grappling hooks, climbing pins, torches have uses, and if the party is well prepared, they'll have them (and if not, you can make sure they're well prepared OOCly, or provide resupply some other way - like failed adventurers who had the right idea but not the combat chops).

Other archetypal "Zelda" things to do:

Put "doors" in the dungeon that are locked by things found later in the dungeon. For example, have certain areas of the dungeon overgrown with a hostile magical weed, which makes them all by impassable - until you find the Fire Gauntlets. Or certain tunnels that have been caved in by loose stone, again impassable until you defeat the miniboss and get the Stonebreak Hammer. The article warns against this but I'm less worried; if the dungeon is properly populated with monsters, most players will know better than to rush on ahead without the party.

Start small with the tools that you give the player. Give them "test cases" that require them to learn to use the tool, and what the tool can be used for - and then ramp things up. Okay, you used the Gauntlets of Fire to clear out the Killweed; now there's a Killweed root infesting the next room and you need to take it out to proceed. How do you get close enough without being overwhelmed? Combine tools and geometry to make this work. Maybe you need to selective collapse sections of a maze to allow yourself through.

You have an advantage in that you have multiple people and multiple skill sets. For example, the rogue with the grappling hook might be needed to scout above, while the fighter and magic caster take directions from the rogue to solve the puzzle. Or maybe the mage needs to decipher scripts while the other party members physically trigger mechanisms (requiring a combination of acrobatics and raw strength).

Dungeon-wide puzzles: things like providing power, water, light, etc, to an otherwise non-functioning dungeon are probably the best model for this (that's not overly cheesy, like the water temple), but also destroying certain monsters can have this effect. Once the sub-boss is dead, whatever effect they were having on the place diminishes (and you usually get a neat toy out of it). Pretty much this. Give them a Metroidvania experience.