No magic?!?

[Godrednu]

What are some ways that you can help the group out if you are completely cut off from using all of your powers? For example, flanking....

Thanks!!

[AgentofHellfire]

Welllllll...

The first thing I can think of is skills. If you were playing a more Cha-based class, you've probably got a reasonable Bluff mod, and you might've taken cross-class ranks in other social skills.

Beyond that, though...does "no magic" include "no magic items"?

[Godrednu]

.

Beyond that, though...does "no magic" include "no magic items"?

No, I suppose not. Hadn't thought of that I guess.

[Kurald Galain]

What are some ways that you can help the group out if you are completely cut off from using all of your powers?

Seriously? No way!

[Ashdate]

If whacking the DM with the PHB doesn't work, try the Aid Another action. It's a melee basic attack versus AC 10; if it succeeds, one ally of your choice gets a +2 bonus to their next attack roll or defenses.

[Mando Knight]

If whacking the DM with the PHB doesn't work, try the Aid Another action. It's a melee basic attack versus AC 10; if it succeeds, one ally of your choice gets a +2 bonus to their next attack roll or defenses.

Which should be to whack the DM with another PHB. :smallwink:

[Raimun]

You mean if you have already used up all of your Encounter, Utility and Daily powers?

If that happens, you should have a really strong melee basic attack in your pocket. For example, if you are a charger Striker all of your charges could do 50+ of damage with the right magic items.

But if you can't do even that? I guess you are going down.

[Godrednu]

Okay, let me explain a bit. I am the DM. My group is living in a world where magic is malfunctioning. There is a chance that, off and on, certain power sources will be cut off to them. I am looking for ways each of them will still be able to contribute if his/hers happens to be cut off at the time. This is definitely not an all or nothing senario with magic. It is a percentile that I will roll out, but like I said, if it happens to be, say, the divine power source that is cut off and I have a cleric in the group, I want to make sure they will still be able to contribute until their power comes back. I don't want anyone in my game to feel useless.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, let me explain a bit. I am the DM. My group is living in a world where magic is malfunctioning. There is a chance that, off and on, certain power sources will be cut off to them.
Three words. Don't. Do. That.

You are making characters useless, and this doesn't fit in the spirit or the design of 4E, unless you simply want to force everyone to make a martial character. Seriously, a character who can't use his powers is utterly crippled, and I can't imagine playing that to be fun for anyone.

[NecroRebel]

Have everyone choose powers both from their class and from another class with a different power source. Whenever the power source from their main class is blocked off, the character instead has to use the other set of powers. Basically, rather than magic screwing up and becoming unusable, the wires get crossed and the same techniques result in different effects.

Basically, if you want to make it so that nobody ever feels useless, you have to make sure that everybody always has a full complement of powers. This means either not doing this plotline, or just giving everyone a different set of powers than normal. Taking away their powers is just a bad plan.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, let me explain a bit. I am the DM. My group is living in a world where magic is malfunctioning. There is a chance that, off and on, certain power sources will be cut off to them. I am looking for ways each of them will still be able to contribute if his/hers happens to be cut off at the time. This is definitely not an all or nothing senario with magic. It is a percentile that I will roll out, but like I said, if it happens to be, say, the divine power source that is cut off and I have a cleric in the group, I want to make sure they will still be able to contribute until their power comes back. I don't want anyone in my game to feel useless.

A possible solution: create secondary sheets for every character. Same scores, same weapons, but martial. Pick a martial class that the score spread they have is decent but not perfect (e.g. one whose primary stat is the character's secondary). On the encounter where their regular power source is not available, hand them the sheet and tell them that their cleric/wizard/etc. is now relying on weapons only, and that these are the new powers he can use.

To make this work, you will need to stop any player from creating primary martial characters, though. This workaround will only work if it doesn't penalise your players too much, and if it does so equally. If one of your characters never looses his powers, the others will complain, and rightly so.

Grey Wolf

[Tegu8788]

Kurald said it first, I'm just seconding it.

Everyone makes a hybrid!



Honestly, it's the only way that I see that working out, unless the lack of power only lasts for 1 round, maybe 2. Since everyone but the martial characters have their power source keyword in almost every single power, even their at-wills would be gone.

If you really wanted to do it, I'd limit how long the void occurs, and let them still use their at-wills. You can say they have enough absorbed energy in their bodies to still pull of such a simple power.

[Ashdate]

A slightly easier alternative might be to use consumable items. Just make sure they're plentiful, and high level.

[Kane0]

Okay, let me explain a bit. I am the DM. My group is living in a world where magic is malfunctioning. There is a chance that, off and on, certain power sources will be cut off to them. I am looking for ways each of them will still be able to contribute if his/hers happens to be cut off at the time. This is definitely not an all or nothing senario with magic. It is a percentile that I will roll out, but like I said, if it happens to be, say, the divine power source that is cut off and I have a cleric in the group, I want to make sure they will still be able to contribute until their power comes back. I don't want anyone in my game to feel useless.

As long as you're only turning off 1 at a time (Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal, Psionic) you should be ok. If you manage it properly.

It's a fine line. People don't want to feel useless. The DM doesnt want useless players. The DM needs to provide challenge, not a roadblock.

Try out some of these:
- Ensure your players aren't predominantly one power source. One of each is best, no more than 2.
- Let them keep their at wills or some other limited from of their powers as reliable and usable even when 'turned off'.
- Give them alternate things to do, and make sure to give them creative freedom (even when their powers arent off!)
- Make sure they arent on their own, so they will have support and can provide support
- Skill checks arent affected, let them use them.
- Items aren't affected, give them enough to use.
- Don't take away access to healing surges and the like unless you have all already agreed on it.
- Be fair and consistent. If you are going to take away arcane magic, then make sure the same thing can happen to martial exploits, divine magic, primal abilities, and psionic powers. If one member isn't safe from this, none of them should be, and in close to equal measure. This makes it a party burden rather than a player burden and worst case scenario everyone will say 'lets not do this anymore' rather than having one or two players up and leave.
- Don't make loss of power trivial or bend to player pressure too much. Don't let them pick up alternate powers or some other solution that doesnt hinder them, but let them work for ways to retain a few choice powers or ignore the loss of powers for a limited time. This is meant to be a challenge, don't let them find a way to ignore it without properly earning it.
- Make it a big deal to solve this problem, both temporarily and permanently. Powers are a siginificant part of a character, regaining the ability to freely use your powers again should feel good and be rewarded as such.

Don't decide not to go through with this because we say so, but because your players aren't enjoying it. And be absolutely sure they really feel that way and aren't just whining.

[DHKase]

This could be a little difficult depending on how long the disruption lasts. If its a round, it shouldn't be to bad, if it's something that's supposed to stretch on for the entire encounter, or an entire day, then you'll probably have to get a little creative with the encounter design. Someone previously suggested allowing them to use their skills, and that's probably a good way to go. My DM, for instance, was quite fond of using terrain powers in every encounter to keep things dynamic (i.e dungeoneering check to notice a crumbling column then a strength check or weapon attack to collapse it and so on). On the upside, this will get your players to start thinking outside the box to find solutions to the problems, but on the downside this will require a lot more thought and flexibility on your side to arbitrate how their solutions pan out.

[ghost_warlock]

I remember playing in a 2e game where the DM pulled a similar tactic with our arcane and divine characters.

Game didn't last more than a session or two. Just saying...

[tcrudisi]

Okay, let me explain a bit. I am the DM. My group is living in a world where magic is malfunctioning. There is a chance that, off and on, certain power sources will be cut off to them. I am looking for ways each of them will still be able to contribute if his/hers happens to be cut off at the time. This is definitely not an all or nothing senario with magic. It is a percentile that I will roll out, but like I said, if it happens to be, say, the divine power source that is cut off and I have a cleric in the group, I want to make sure they will still be able to contribute until their power comes back. I don't want anyone in my game to feel useless.

I'm not going to tell you not to do it. Others have done that and explained why not. However, I'm not going to tell you to scrap your story idea either; instead, I want to focus on how to make the story work while still being engaging for the players.

One way is that it doesn't strip every power. Perhaps there are 2 levels of anti-magic. In one, it only prevents dailies. In the other, it prevents encounter powers and dailies (in the case of psionics, it stops power points from being used). This at least allows players to keep their at-wills. It's boring, but it's something. And suddenly at-wills become a lot more important.

Also, what about introducing a new "magic item"? One that allows the players the ability to transform a power from one source to another. So perhaps they find a magical shard that allows them to make their Fireball a martial power. This also has side quest written all over it. They hear rumors of a wizard who can continue to cast his fireballs when arcane magic is not working. They go to investigate why and discover that there's a way to change power sources. Does it only work for one power or all of one player's powers? Is it evil? Eh, you figure out the details. :p But it allows the players an option to bypass the suckitude.

[Sol]

You'd also run into issues with existing content like the Power of Arcana feat allowing divine classes to bypass your restriction, as well as rewarding extremely common multiclass powerswaps (like barbarians swapping for Rain of Blows, or Fighters swapping for Hurricane of Blades) over less common, unique creations, single-classing, or combinations that stay in-power source.

[ghost_warlock]

You'd also run into issues with existing content like the Power of Arcana feat allowing divine classes to bypass your restriction, as well as rewarding extremely common multiclass powerswaps (like barbarians swapping for Rain of Blows, or Fighters swapping for Hurricane of Blades) over less common, unique creations, single-classing, or combinations that stay in-power source.

For that matter, how do you rule on powers that are inherently ambiguous? For instance, I don't think anyone will argue that many druid powers are magical effects, but what about other primal classes? Is it magical when a vanilla barbarian uses Rage Strike? How about Storm of Blades?

[obryn]

90%+ of a 4e character's mechanical foundation is their Powers. By taking away, say, Martial powers, Joe Fighter is Joe Ordinary Dude and incapable of being a Fighter.

Don't take them away; it's a quick way to bore your players.

-O

[Boci]

90%+ of a 4e character's mechanical foundation is their Powers. By taking away, say, Martial powers, Joe Fighter is Joe Ordinary Dude and incapable of being a Fighter.

Don't take them away; it's a quick way to bore your players.

-O

Nitpick: I'm pretty sure a defender is the worst example of what happens to a class when you take away their powers, because they will still be able to mark (albeit not as well). Compare that to a controller or leader, who are entirely dependent on their powers to fulfill their role.

As for the "bore your players" bit, depends on the players and how it is handled. Certainly something to consider carefully, and to approach with care, but it can work in the right group and the right DM.

[Mando Knight]

Nitpick: I'm pretty sure a defender is the worst example of what happens to a class when you take away their powers, because they will still be able to mark (albeit not as well). Compare that to a controller or leader, who are entirely dependent on their powers to fulfill their role.

Fighters would be able to mark and punish just as well as they could without powers, but the others' marks and punishment mechanics are generally defined through powers, and the Paladin and Swordmage in particular basically lose their teeth. ...And the Warden. And the Battlemind.

[Angel Bob]

I'm having some PTSD flashbacks of a DM who tried to pull an Anti-Magic Field in a 4E campaign. We'd all put a lot of work into our (mostly Arcane) characters and were having a lot of fun with them; then some jackass necromancer we'd never heard of wrapped the entire realm in an Anti-Magic Field.

We came up with several schemes to try and eliminate this necromancer without the use of our Arcane powers. Most of them involved recruiting NPCs with a non-Arcane power source. Before we could get started on this, we had an encounter with some undead. Four hours later, we'd taken out maybe 1/3 of each monster's hit points. The campaign ended almost immediately out of sheer disinterest.

DO NOT DO THIS THING. It is a f@#king STUPID idea.

[Breccia]

In the campaign I am running, I wrote out a list of ten things I wanted to be in this section at some point. Number six was anti-magic field.

Then I crossed it off, because the party consists of four martials and one sorcerer. It would have been grossly unfair for a "standard" AM Field. Or I would do what you're doing, finding a way for her to still contribute. But if you find yourself "forced" to do something, that's not as much fun.

So instead, I did this: the room had a massive crystal that was trying to curse mind-control everyone. The PCs were shielded by their magic items, so were immune to the curse, but their magic items were all shut off for that fight. That way, the fight was equally dampening to everyone.

(It also prevented them from blowing all their magic item dailies on the fight just before the drider and his war trolls).

EDIT: The fight was also a level n-1 fight with a variety of terrain features for cover, concealment and bottlenecks. They got through it with clever use of class mechanics and suffered only minor injuries. It went well.

[Tegu8788]

Other possibilities. Have it be a trap. It blankets the area, and whoever loses their powers spend a few turns disarming the trap. It sucks all the energy. And in 4/n players with that power source it explodes, draining a surge for everyone within burst n*1d8. This gives the person who can't fight a meaningful thing to do, and makes them useful to the team while incapacitated. The more with the power, that's drained, the more important it is they deal with it.


That, or allow them to make a free check with their skill to use the power anyway, despite the anti-field, or to shut it down. Maybe if they can de active the field or the trap, they get a +5 to their next attack, maybe recharge an encounter power, using all the stored energy to overpower somebody.

[Sol]

I understand the thematic concepts in play here. In the best fantasy epics we see our heroes cast down, struggling, and rising back up / pushing through near intolerable situations.

But actually playing as those characters really sucks. Especially if you're surrounded by peers who are not going through a faith/magical/spiritual crisis that dampens your powers. Especially if the DM fails to adequately adjust combats to account for the reduced power of the party. It's just not as interesting of a concept to play through as it looks like on paper.

[Kurald Galain]

Other possibilities. Have it be a trap. It blankets the area, and whoever loses their powers spend a few turns disarming the trap. It sucks all the energy. And in 4/n players with that power source it explodes, draining a surge for everyone within burst n*1d8. This gives the person who can't fight a meaningful thing to do, and makes them useful to the team while incapacitated.

I wouldn't consider that meaningful or useful, myself. The default for 4E is for skill checks and e.g. Healing Word in combat to be minor actions so that players can still use their standard action on something else.

[Godrednu]

The plan was to keep letting them use skills. I hadn't though of letting them use at-wills, but I will consider it. It sounds like a lot of you are in agreement that it would be doable if it only lasted a round or two. This is also doable. Magic items will not be affected. However martial power, just like every other power source would be affected. I would basically just say that there is magic in all of us including martial classes and it is to that magic that we reach to perform our powers so it affects everyone the same. I had thought about the idea of making a magical item that would nullify the effects of the malfunctioning magic, with certain specifications of course.

Another different idea was that the malfunctioning magic affect their world, but not them. For instance, in their next fight I was going to have an area of blackness consume the battlefield so that in affect, everyone was blinded. I thought it suitable since creatures they are fighting have tremorsense. Regardless, that's one example of having affect the world, but not them.

[Gavran]

Just as a personal note, if I'm playing a Martial class and you spring this as a surprise to me and tell me I've lost "the magic within" I'm going to be very annoyed, because I (and I imagine 99% of others) don't envision their Martial characters as relying on anything other than skill. You'd be committing the worst sin of altering character details without player permission. That's only if this was a surprise though (and it would be pretty frustrating if it was a surprise regardless of power source.)

I like the idea of it not having an effect on the PCs (they are exceptional, after all, and that could even be why they're 'chosen' or what have you) but if you really want this to be a game mechanic, I think having it completely block power use, even for a single round, would be a bad plan. Instead, I would suggest that as magic is in its death throes it goes into a "flux" state, which you could represent as both attack penalties and bonuses, which I think would be more palatable. (Though it's worth nothing that missing is still the most boring thing that can happen in combat.)

The most important thing I can say though, is talk to your players about the possibility of them not having access to everything on their character sheet. That's a very important assumption and while you absolutely can break it, your players need to know what they're getting into.

[Kurald Galain]

Just as a personal note, if I'm playing a Martial class and you spring this as a surprise to me and tell me I've lost "the magic within" I'm going to be very annoyed, because I (and I imagine 99% of others) don't envision their Martial characters as relying on anything other than skill.
Indeed. Martial characters explicitly aren't magical, and for that matter neither are the essassin and the barbarian.

[Kane0]

I just noticed how... entitled we sound.

And I'm not even that old, which scares me.

[VeliciaL]

I'm not sure it's really entitled, fourth edition just doesn't work well with these kinds of mechanics. This is really the wrong system to be trying this sort of thing with, IMHO.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure it's really entitled, fourth edition just doesn't work well with these kinds of mechanics. This is really the wrong system to be trying this sort of thing with, IMHO.

Yes. It's a simple matter of (1) other players get to make complicated decisions in combat, whereas (2) you can't, for reasons beyond your control, and (3) combat takes a long time. So that's a long time where you'll be bored while the rest of the table is having fun; that's not really about entitlement.

[ghost_warlock]

Tell players that they can't use their standard action attacks and they'll start whipping out their phones to text or play Angry Birds. When their turn comes up and you ask what they're going to do, there's a good chance they'll say they can't do anything and will pretty much drop out of the combat. Table talk increases and people have to start shouting over the chatter to explain to the DM what they're doing.

If that's what you're going for, sure, it's a great idea.

[Kane0]

What are your players like, Godrednu? That might give us some more insight here.

[Shatteredtower]

When their turn comes up and you ask what they're going to do, there's a good chance they'll say they can't do anything and will pretty much drop out of the combat.

That's just wilful stupidity, best sorted out early. Players that won't do anything because they lack their favourite options aren't worth the trouble.

Sure, restricting the use of attack powers should be done sparingly and preferably within certain limitations, but prohibited? That's just wasted opportunity. Aside from aiding another's attack or drawing opportunity attacks against targets the defender has marked, you've got the entire gamut of social skills, the opportunity to get a better reading of your situation (knowledge, insight, and perception checks), and the option to try interacting with the rest of your environment (aka the "What does this button do?" approach).

Of course, it's critical for a DM to be ready to allow something to be achieved with all of these options before leaving players without their favourite toy, and the difficulty of finding and employing such options should not be out of their reach. Better still, such alternatives should include several options to counteract whatever is preventing the use of precious powers. "Safe" spaces that can be located or, better yet, created. Devices that can be deactivated, destroyed, manipulated to work in the party's favour. Prices that can be paid to overcome the adversity, though healing surges are not a suitable currency for this purpose.

(The standard status effects aren't a fair exchange either, unless you restrict them with some condition. For example, a bargain that leaves a character weakened until the end of its next turn after using a daily power is fair. A conditional penalty or very mild vulnerability can also be fair, but the dazed or stunned effect is almost always excessive.)

Any checks that might be required should have difficulty determined by the action investment. Minor or free action checks should range from moderate to hard DC. Standard action checks should usually call for an easy check, moderate at most, and even automatic success in some cases.

Another thing worth keeping in mind before you do something like this: The results should be seen as a party problem, one that others can intervene to resolve. Team building is the best, arguably the only, reason for denying a party access to any particular power source. This should be everyone's problem, and everyone should have the option to help address it.

There is room for players to have fun with this, but you may need to give them more guidance than usual. A little bit of advance warning before you drop this sort of thing on them would also be appreciated, though it's still best to first introduce the subject with clues supplied in game. Maybe have a few battles in which certain powers are mechanically unaffected at first, but display some indication that something about them is not quite right. It can be a sensory effect triggered by the spell's use, or just the feeling that a spell was more difficult to cast.

Players getting something out of the world and story is more important than getting anything out of powers and skills. Just make sure there's something for them to get out of an adjustment like this.

[Alejandro]

If I was to be a player in said game, I would immediately make a Slayer and focus all my energy on having really good melee basic attacks.

Agree, though, that it's a bad idea. It's like having a Star Wars game with blasters and lightsabers that randomly don't work.

[Kane0]

It's like having a Star Wars game with blasters and lightsabers that randomly don't work.


Thats when you break out the Force powers and Thermal Detonators.

[Knaight]

I just noticed how... entitled we sound.

And I'm not even that old, which scares me.

I really don't see how thinking that if you are going to play a game you should enjoy it is entitled. It would be one thing if we were, say, trying to demand that WotC keep releasing 4e material after Next came out because we wanted more, but as is I really don't see it.

Plus, 4e is not a game that handles this well in the first place, so there's that. Although there are probably ways which work to some extent - for instance, having to give up one encounter power at random before starting a fight.

[Laserlight]

If I design a character whose point is to be, say, a smooth talking con man, and then you tell me that 20% of the time he'll be mute, well, you've just taken 20% of the enjoyment out of the game. If I want to play a hard charging barbarian, and you say "oh wait, you can't move for this fight", then you've denied me the opportunity to do what I do.

Now if you tell your players in advance that this is what you want to do, and they're all cool with it, then fine. But realize that your plan is basically "take away their reason for existing, part of the time".
If you said "I will make it suck less by giving them backup/hybrid powers", then why bother taking their powers in the first place?

[Kane0]

I really don't see how thinking that if you are going to play a game you should enjoy it is entitled. It would be one thing if we were, say, trying to demand that WotC keep releasing 4e material after Next came out because we wanted more, but as is I really don't see it.

Plus, 4e is not a game that handles this well in the first place, so there's that. Although there are probably ways which work to some extent - for instance, having to give up one encounter power at random before starting a fight.

My thoughts were more along the line of people not thinking out of the box. A lot of people I've gamed with are amazing players until they get stuck on what the book says they should have. WBL was the biggest issue in our 3rd ed games, and powers could well be the same here.
DMs have a much easier time in 4e changing challenges and encounters than in other D&D versions, so allowing for the lack of powers should be easy.
Taking away powers may shut down aspects and probably the majority of your character, but that does not mean they are useless and/or the game will be unfun. If there was no challenge, the rewards would be worthless. This is just a different kind of challenge. Kind of like a handicap I guess. The thing is that the reward has to be worth the challenge, and the challenge manageable.

Of course if you spring this on players who aren't prior notified then it's a moot point and a **** move. One should tell their players they will be up against Pun-pun before they encounter him, unless they are masochistic like that.

Shatteredtower seems better at explaining this than I am, and seems to be conveying roughly the same idea.

[Tegu8788]

Kane0, I think what we are trying to say is, if you want to, do it.


But there is overwhelming evidence that it is most likely to turn very, very poorly.


Say I suggested to you that we go play a game of basketball. We get there, it's a pick up game, and we end up on different teams. You get the ball, it's wide open, but then someone calls for a time out.

At which point, you are put in a fat suit, your hands are tied into boxing gloves, and one foot is chained on a five foot link to the center of the court. And then I tell you to stop whining, that you are being entitled, and to just be glad I let you come play.


This is essentially what you are proposing. You are changing the rules in such a drastic way, that one person is unable to do much of anything but stand around, gimped to the point of ineffectiveness. And I know if I was the DM, I would then have my monsters pile on the guy that can't fight back.

This sounds like a recipe to single out a player and make his game miserable. Not a character, a player. The reason there are rules in this game, in large part, is to protect the players. Any group of children can make up glorious stories together. But rules are needed for "I hit you," "No you didn't," "Yeah I did!" This style removes someone's ability to do everything that sets them apart. Even utilities are gone.

MBA, RBA, Charge, Bullrush, Total Defense, and Second Wind, plus whatever Racial power they have, is all they are left with. I can't imagine that anyone who isn't a high Str or Dex character will be able to do much of anything. Casters, completely inept. Many Essentials characters, completely inept.


If your group, before building their characters, agrees to this kinda thing, then bless them. But without a lot of overly complicated ways to compensate, this is not gonna end well I highly suspect.

[Kane0]

I knew I shouldn't have used the word entitled.

How about this analogy, as this is more how i see it.
The group is playing cards. At one point the house determines one player has to show his cards for this hand. That player is at a distinct disadvantage, but can still play. Come round the next hand the house picks another player to show his cards for that hand, and the first player can go back to hiding his.
Now the house knows that this changes things so he throws in a few extra cards into the deck that offer alternatives and bypasses, if the players are lucky and resourceful, as an equalizer.

You are right though, without proper management it will in all likelihood end badly and there needs to be consensus beforehand.

[Tegu8788]

I see how you are thinking, but taking away powers isn't making people show their hands. It's taking away their cards, while forcing them to still fill the pot.

Now, if you then gave them a brand new hand, for just the turn, that would allow a lucky and resourceful player to figure things out.

If you are willing to fully compensate players for what you take away, then that softens the blow to the point of making it a fun twist. If things change temporarily without changing power levels, then that is no longer a problem.

Just don't take a level 20 party, and randomly make them weaker than a level 1.

[Kane0]

Okay cool, were on the same page.

So what are our solutions? Besides 'dont', so far I got:
- making loss of powers temporary. No longer than a couple rounds
- not taking away all powers. Perhaps leave at wills
- have powers switched out instead of removed
- make loss of powers affect eeryone equally. The BBEG warpriest suffers the same as the pc cleric.
- have some way of ignoring or resisting the effects. Might be an item, might be a power, might be a save ends. Make sure it doesnt trivialise it all.
- ensure access to non-power related things to do. Consumable items, environmental factors, non-combatants to handle, etc
- adjust fight difficulty for change in capabilities

[Kurald Galain]

How about this analogy, as this is more how i see it.
The group is playing cards. At one point the house determines one player has to show his cards for this hand. That player is at a distinct disadvantage, but can still play.
As Tegu already pointed out, your metaphor is off. What you're missing here is that, as the game is designed, a character's at-will powers are already much stronger than anything else they could be trying in combat (and, of course, encounter and daily powers are substantially stronger than that). If some of the players can use their full scale of powerful attacks and one player can only do bull rush, aid another, or use consumables, then that latter player might as well not be there for all the impact he's going to have.

So the first issue you'd need to address is that some characters are completely crippled while others are at full strength.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So what are our solutions? Besides 'dont', so far I got:

Have the players create characters with two classes, a primary and a secondary, which must be from different power sources (they keep STR, WIS, etc. the same, but they can pick different feats for each. Equipment can be different, but they should still be subject to weight constraints and action economy to switch weapons. Not sure how to handle armour). Don't limit which sources they can pick. The justification for martial to stop working needs a reasonable explanation, but I would suggest "the magic fields become so intense everyone is now surrounded by a magic shield impenetrable by physical means" or some such.

And when the world is behaving, let them use whichever power from either sheet they want. That way, you compensate for the times when must only pick from one of them.

Grey Wolf

[MLH]

I see how you are thinking, but taking away powers isn't making people show their hands. It's taking away their cards, while forcing them to still fill the pot.
Actually let's be entirely accurate: it's taking away all the highest cards and leaving them with, say, 2s to 4s.

Continuing that analogy, saying "you don't get your powers but you can still flank and aid another" is like saying "you don't get 5s through aces but can still get four of a kind."

[Eurus]

Actually let's be entirely accurate: it's taking away all the highest cards and leaving them with, say, 2s to 4s.

Continuing that analogy, saying "you don't get your powers but you can still flank and aid another" is like saying "you don't get 5s through aces but can still get four of a kind."

This metaphor is getting a little tortured.

Anyway, generally speaking, I'm not the kind of guy to say "don't do it" because as long as your players are aware and accepting the concept -- which they hopefully are, because springing things like that on people is pretty uncool -- you can do whatever you want.

But it's definitely something that should be thought through. Here's my idea: as you've written it out, it's too severe and too unpredictable to allow much strategy or workaround. You're mostly stuck just sitting around until it wears off, maybe trying to flank or aid for a really minor bonus that's not very effective and boring to use.

It'd be better, I think, if it wasn't random. Use it sparingly, but precisely. Treat it like a hazard for specific encounters/areas, and build the encounters/areas to account for it. Maybe in one encounter, powers switch off in a specific rotation, like Divine>Arcane>Psionic>Martial, for one round each. Or maybe a powerful boss gets to control the flow, and switches off each round whatever power source was the most threatening to him last round (but can't keep the same one for more than one round in a row).

But include specific things that the players can do during this time, like environmental hazards that can be directed -- explosive gas spores, wild magic fountains that grant unpredictable effects, monsters that have a noticeable weakness to simple tactics like throwing sand in their eyes, whatever, just have at least one (and ideally more than one) answer when someone inevitably asks "so what do I do now?" That way it becomes part of the strategy for that round.

Also, if you really want to include martial, I suggest making it obvious that it's either your very life-energy and strength being disrupted, or some magical interference hindering your movements, not "your magic sword-fu is negated", because as mentioned that's a bit of an issue fluff-wise, but again, it's up to you and your players. I personally wouldn't mind if it was made clear beforehand that this is a setting where what we think of as "magic" is an omnipresent energy inherent in all people and things, and when a master warrior swings a blade or uses his kung fu he's channeling the energy of his soul into the attack and making it an extension of his killing/protecting will just as a sorcerer turns his will into lightning and fire -- but some people would mind.

[BlckDv]

So, lots of why you should not do it already covered, I'll go down my list of "If you do do it anyway"

1. This SHOULD NOT be out of the blue. If you suddenly start a fight and declare 'Surprise; Psionic powers are out." You'll have serious issues with most parties. Make the fact that this can happen clear in campaign prep, along with how long it lasts (rounds? minutes?) and what things are affected (Powers from one type from list X at a time, Feats with a Power type pre-req, etc.). If you allow all material; make sure you are clear in advance with how dual-power source classes like the Executioneer Assassin are impacted. Likewise with elements like Paragon Path Powers and Epic Destinies; players should be able to tell what will work if you don't want a lot of meta-level debate.

2. This should be fair. Have Monsters loose access to powers as well, and if these impacts are random, you as DM should not be able to prep monsters to avoid the power type that will go down for a given fight.

3. Point out options PCs may want to consider that will have higher value than a normal campaign; such as Melee Training, Items that give Standard Action Attacks, Multiclassing that gives a power from a 2nd power source, etc.

4. Don't force it. If Martial is not affected and you end up with an all Martial party, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

5. Try to focus on out of combat impacts; If flying castles crash down or fonts of holy water become mundane those can be good roleplay items and adventure hooks. For combat maybe even have "intensity" levels such as when it first hits it only disrupts Daily powers, so player shave a chance to try and end a combat as things start to go wonky, then a few rounds later it cuts off Encounter powers, etc. This gives the players some feeling of control, and lets you have total disruption events without sudden loss of PC choices; some monsters already have powers that limit access to daily or Encounter powers, so this is more balanced.

6. Consider working in skill challenges. Perhaps an ability to feel a disruption coming; or an ability to focus on holding back a disruption in a small area for a brief time, etc.

Hope that helps!

[Yakk]

Another approach is to play with the world building component.

Pick a few power sources. These are the only power sources in your game.

Say, Divine, Arcane and Martial.

Add semi-gonzo houserule mechanics on them:
* Martial characters can recharge a single Encounter power of their choice as a Standard Action.
* Arcane characters can recharge all of their Encounter powers as a Standard Action.
* Divine encounter powers all have Recharge 6.
* Martial characters learn 2 Daily powers instead of 1. They can use either of those powers, which expends the other. Martial daily powers only recover when you gain a level (extended rests do nothing).
* Arcane Daily powers require an hour of recovery each.
* Divine Daily powers recharge automatically at the time of day aligned with the Divine house your powers come from. There are 4 Divine houses: Dawn, Noon, Dusk and Midnight. Each god belongs to one of these houses.
* Arcane is the house of Eclipse. During an Eclipse, Arcane encounter powers are usable at-will, and Arcane daily powers are usable per encounter. Note that Eclipses usually last a few minutes.
* Arcane energies rise and fall somewhat randomly. In order to use an Encounter or Daily Arcane power, you have to make an Arcana skill check against an unpredictable DC (modified by the level of the power). On a failure, you use an at-will instead.

Now the 3 power sources have somewhat different feels. I tried to make Martial the worst off slightly, and Arcana the best off, other than the chance that your power just doesn't work.

Even then, you'd have to do lots of work to keep things somewhat on keel.

[Laserlight]

So what are our solutions? Besides 'dont', so far I got:
- making loss of powers temporary. No longer than a couple rounds
- not taking away all powers. Perhaps leave at wills
- have powers switched out instead of removed
- make loss of powers affect eeryone equally. The BBEG warpriest suffers the same as the pc cleric.
- have some way of ignoring or resisting the effects. Might be an item, might be a power, might be a save ends. Make sure it doesnt trivialise it all.
- adjust fight difficulty for change in capabilities

Occasionally you get an Arcane Surge or some such, and your power level goes UP. Pick spells as if you were N levels higher. Let's say you're at level 10; some fights you'll be at level 8, some fights you'll be effectively 12.

[OracleofWuffing]

Let them keep their powers, but powers from the related power source take a -1 or -2 to hit penalty that doesn't stack with other things. Depending on how the party make up goes, the levels you're playing, and how frequently battles where this happens occur, let them spend a surge or skill check to fight unhindered by that penalty for an encounter.

[Shatteredtower]

If I was to be a player in said game, I would immediately make a Slayer and focus all my energy on having really good melee basic attacks.

That's when I borrow an idea from the original Dragonlance modules and 1E Astral combat to pit you against an alien landscape where your Intelligence modifier replace your Strength modifer for such purposes, and effects that rely on Dexterity use your Wisdom score instead.

Well, no, this is when I'd tell you this table isn't for you. If you can't trust the DM enough to be fair with unorthodox challenges, you should already know that. Why waste your time trying to be spiteful?


Agree, though, that it's a bad idea. It's like having a Star Wars game with blasters and lightsabers that randomly don't work.

No, it's like playing a fantasy game that treats magic as something fey, unpredictable, and dangerous, where there is always a price. So the mechanics assume that the archdevils are helpless to do anything about your infernal warlock's theft of their power, just as it assumes that divine classes own the powers they use, rather than lease them. So what? The mechanics aren't the game any more than a violin is music.

Sure, if there's an obstacle in the way of using a power, it should point to some option to turn that in your favour. Maybe the technique an enemy uses to shut down your warlock powers leaves them vulnerable to a contest of wills. While you may need to spend a minor action and pass moderate difficulty on an Intimidate check just to use a power, succeeding on the hard DC might boost the benefits offered by your warlock's curse to cause damage every time an ally hits the target before your next turn starts, rather than once per round. (Perhaps the ally would have to make a check as well.) The more complex the procedure to use a power, the bigger the payoff should be. That's also true in cases where you won't be able to use certain powers at all for a set amount of time. There has to be room for them to do something spectacular, both in your preparations and in your response to their ideas.

Your DM is not your adversary. Experiments such as this don't change that.

[Laserlight]

Your DM is not your adversary.

"Not SUPPOSED to be", at least.

[Alejandro]

That's when I borrow an idea from the original Dragonlance modules and 1E Astral combat to pit you against an alien landscape where your Intelligence modifier replace your Strength modifer for such purposes, and effects that rely on Dexterity use your Wisdom score instead.

Well, no, this is when I'd tell you this table isn't for you. If you can't trust the DM enough to be fair with unorthodox challenges, you should already know that. Why waste your time trying to be spiteful?



No, it's like playing a fantasy game that treats magic as something fey, unpredictable, and dangerous, where there is always a price. So the mechanics assume that the archdevils are helpless to do anything about your infernal warlock's theft of their power, just as it assumes that divine classes own the powers they use, rather than lease them. So what? The mechanics aren't the game any more than a violin is music.

Sure, if there's an obstacle in the way of using a power, it should point to some option to turn that in your favour. Maybe the technique an enemy uses to shut down your warlock powers leaves them vulnerable to a contest of wills. While you may need to spend a minor action and pass moderate difficulty on an Intimidate check just to use a power, succeeding on the hard DC might boost the benefits offered by your warlock's curse to cause damage every time an ally hits the target before your next turn starts, rather than once per round. (Perhaps the ally would have to make a check as well.) The more complex the procedure to use a power, the bigger the payoff should be. That's also true in cases where you won't be able to use certain powers at all for a set amount of time. There has to be room for them to do something spectacular, both in your preparations and in your response to their ideas.

Your DM is not your adversary. Experiments such as this don't change that.

If the DM did a 'random power sources don't work' scenario as has been described, and a player reacted by having their next PC be a slayer that didn't rely on power sources (adapting to the DM's world) and the DM then did a 'INT score is the new STR' they would rapidly lose players. That's no fun. Also, if the DM's world where power sources randomly don't work exists as such, why then would such Slayer-style characters not naturally become dominant?

[Yakk]

A dex based slayer (who takes melee training to attack with dex) would end up being immune to even that methinks? (My displacer-beast mounted pixie knight I've built works that way)

While I don't take much truck with "if power sources stopped working, and there is a mechanical trick that avoids relying on them, wouldn't that character dominate", as it presumes that PC classes are things that random beings in the world take and advance as (my default 4e assumption is that PCs are unique, and monster type stats are closer emulation of NPC (at least in-combat) capabilities than PC in-combat capabilities are).

But the fact that entire players become nearly useless over hours of play time seems overly ham handed.

[Leewei]

My advice?

The PCs are unaffected. Everyone else is screwed up, but the PCs are championing divine or arcane magic, and so the powers that be have invested them with the ability to use their powers without chance of failure. If they fall, that's it for the powers they represent.

To make things interesting, some major NPCs might be able to throw down with Save-ends Encounter Powers that recharge when bloodied, which cause PCs within a close burst to lose the ability to use EPs or DPs sourced by a specific realm. The players get a taste of what they're in for, should they fail, then go back up against the enemy with a vengeance when their powers kick in again.

Another possibility -- make auras or specific terrain types that interfere with some realms. Creatures occupying tiles of Dead Mana enjoy superior cover against Arcane attacks, for instance.

[Godrednu]

Well, thanks for all the help everyone. This was a very interesting conversation and I enjoyed reading it very much. I have decided what I am going to do. I took advice from a majority of you and will take it from here on out. Thanks again!!