Ranger/Druid/Monk Class Feature Shuffle

[Captnq]

I have a weird build in mind but I need to know the RAW of this.

Okay, follow my logic.

Ranger drops combat style for wild shape
WILD SHAPE (Class Feature)
- Unearthed Arcana (3.5)
Replaces: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.
Benefit: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).

So, can we not assume that anything that would require a druid to give up wild shape, a Wild Shape Ranger could also give up to gain?

Ranger drops wild shape for monk/ranger stuff
DRUID
- Unearthed Arcana (3.5)
Replaces:Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).
Benefit: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).

So now I'm a ranger who Monk AC, barbarian fast movement and monk fast movement.

Well, the question is, Can This Work?

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that you're only allowed to make a trade if you gained the class feature from the listed class. Also, the druid trades away all versions of wild shape, and the ranger only gets two types to trade away.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Druid has to trade all versions of Wild Shape for that ACF (sizes tiny and smaller, large and bigger, plants, elementals). A Wild Shape Ranger does not get enough Wild Shape to pay for that ACF. It doesn't work.

[Captnq]

RAI, I agree.

RAW is what I'm talking here. Strickly TO, as it is written.

It states: "Benefit: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only),"

"AS DRUID" are the key words here.

So if a druid is giving something up, here I am, giving up the very thing a druid has because I have it AS A DRUID DOES.

Now, the price for this is:

Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).

Well, What are ALL versions?

By RAI we can conclude that they mean ALL versions a Druid has. But by RAW, it means ALL versions the character possesses. So if a druid had only one form of wildshape, he would lose ALL versions.

And if a Druid had more then all versions, would he lose the extra versions? I would say so, because it says ALL. SO, the number of versions does not matter, as long as you have no wild shape at all, after the trans0action is concluded.

And since this is a Class feature for a class feature, it IS a class feature gained.

It would be worth noting that the way it is worded, you could not gain wild shape by any other means later, since this ACF gets rid of ALL versions. That would include future and past versions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

RAW, that ACF is only available to members of the Druid class, and its benefits only apply to Druid class levels.

[Captnq]

RAW, that ACF is only available to members of the Druid class, and its benefits only apply to Druid class levels.

Originally, I thought that as well. But it is an alternate CLASS FEATURE, not a Level substitution.

For example, Anyone who has the class feature Evasion can switch it out for Feign Death or Spell Reflection. This proves that the Alternate class feature is not class specific.

But please, I welcome all arguments. I need something iron clad here, one way or the other. It certainly is simpler to say No and would make the calculations easier, but I must explore all permutations.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Originally, I thought that as well. But it is an alternate CLASS FEATURE, not a Level substitution.

For example, Anyone who has the class feature Evasion can switch it out for Feign Death or Spell Reflection. This proves that the Alternate class feature is not class specific.

But please, I welcome all arguments. I need something iron clad here, one way or the other. It certainly is simpler to say No and would make the calculations easier, but I must explore all permutations.

Spell Reflection specifies, "Class: Monk, ranger, rogue, or scout." Any member of one of those classes can trade their Evasion class feature for Spell Reflection, but if you gain Evasion from a class not listed you are not eligible to take Spell Reflection. Alternate class features are always class specific, even if they're available to multiple classes. The Druid ACF you're after is specific to the Druid class, just like Spell Reflection is specific to those classes it has listed.

[Captnq]

Sigh. I... see I'm not getting through here.

I'm looking for something that says, "Yes, you can." or "No, You can't." I don't care WHICH, I just need one or the other.

Here:


STANDARD
CLASS OPTIONS
The rogue has the best suite of character options for surviving
the dungeon environment, including the ability
to deal with traps and locks, skill at skulking about, and
advantages when striking from concealment. However, all
the standard classes in the Player’s Handbook have abilities
or strengths that are useful in a dungeon.
The following entries discuss choices you can make
during character creation to improve your dungeoneering
party. Each standard class entry also contains one
or more alternative class features (introduced in Player’s
Handbook II) to customize your character to the dungeon
environment.



Alternative Class Feature: Trapkiller
You have a knack for avoiding and disabling traps. Your
keen instincts help you avoid danger, while your great
strength enables you to disrupt dangerous devices.
Level: 3rd.
Replaces: If you select this alternative class feature, you
do not gain the trap sense ability.
Benefi t: Beginning at 3rd level, you gain trapfinding
(see the rogue class feature, PH 50), except that you can
use Survival instead of Search to locate


Now, I'll save you the spam. Besides you need to give up a barbarian class feature, I can't find anything that says this is barbarian only. You'd think they'd mention that sort of thing. You know, It's only for a specific class.

True, RAI may indicate it, but I need something clear. I can point to hosts of things that only listed a few classes but were used in other classes.

I need a page. I need a quote. I don't need conjecture. I need that paragraph that says, "Only the class it is under can take this ACF." Or something of that nature.

Your arguement is:

It lists a number of base classes that can use this, therefore, only those base classes can use it.

However, WotC has demonstrated time and time again that when new supliments come out, they encourage old material to be updated to be used with the new. So, this is not a RAW argument, but a RAI one.

And a good one at that. No question about that. However, as I have pointed out, SOME books list the ACF with Class: X, and some do not. So I can assume those that DON'T list a class can go with any class and those that do are limited?

I don't like that. It's messy. It should be one way or the other.

But I have looked at Cityscape, Complete Mage, Drow of the under dark, Dungeonscape, Masters of the Wild...

Now see, there is a glimmer of hope in Exemplars of evil.

BLASPHEMOUS
INCANTATION
Not all evil deities or fi endish
powers are concerned
with undead. Some grant their
mortal servants the ability to channel their
unholy will in the form of a blasphemous
incantation.
Class: Cleric.
Level: 1st (cleric).

See? There is NO DOUBT that this MUST BE the 1st level of the CLERIC CLASS. Problem solved, right?

AVORED OF
THE FIENDS
Cultists of archdevils and
demon princes are uncommon and secretive,
but they are a potent force for evil
in the world. On occasion, when a servant
proves his devotion to his vile masters, he
undergoes a profound transformation.
Class: Favored soul (Complete
Divine page 6).
Level: 3rd.

Why doesn't Level read "Level: 3rd (Favored Soul)"?

now that I'm looking at it, Feign death has it.
Level: 2nd (monk or rogue) or 9th (ranger).

but
INSPIRE HATRED
Level: 9th.
and
INVISIBLE FIST
Level: 2nd.

Missing.

See, if it happened just once, I could say, oh, editor typo, but it happens twice. If it was just under feign death, I could say, "Oh, needed to specify which level for each class" But BLASPHEMOUS INCANTATION only has ONE class, so why specify for THAT one "Level: 1st (cleric)"?

So, I will re-iterate. I'm looking for a sentence, a paragraph, a something that indicates that ACFs are only to be used with the intended class listed. I have plenty of RAI evidence. But I need something incontrovertible.

If I don't find it, then I will have no choice but to assume it is allowed, even if it is a most round about fashion and highly cheesy. My concerns are not about if it makes sense, but if is clearly allowed or not allowed. If the situation is gray, then both points of view must be included in the final product. It's a great deal more headache for me, but I have rather high standards.

[eggynack]

"You can use any one of these variant classes in place of the standard class of the same name." Does that work? Also, the druid thing itself says, "The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter," rather than, "You might choose," which indicates that you've gotta use a druid.

[Cog]

Sigh. I... see I'm not getting through here.
When the question is, "Does this work?" and the answer given is,"Not the way you want," it doesn't always mean you've been misunderstood. Sometimes it just means that it does not, in fact, work the way you want.


So, I will re-iterate. I'm looking for a sentence, a paragraph, a something that indicates that ACFs are only to be used with the intended class listed. I have plenty of RAI evidence. But I need something incontrovertible.
The Unearthed Arcana swaps aren't ACFs, by RAW. They are variant classes. Just as other classes will often refer back to Rogue to describe how Sneak Attack works, these classes refer you to other classes to describe how their features work; however, they are classes unto themselves, not just lists of trades you can make.

[avr]

BTW, "If I don't find it, then I will have no choice but to assume it is allowed" when you are refusing to see the examples given to you reads as a little silly.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, you actually have to have the class to take alternate class features for said class.

[shaikujin]

Something similar has been brought up before in the past. It was called ACF chaining then (you can google for acf chaining).

Though the main issue is that by what little RAW there is on this, you can only swap out the class features if your character belongs to that class (and of course, must still have those features available to swap).