Iaijutsu-fying Truenaming - possible issues?

[Flickerdart]

Truenaming sucks. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269) But then again, so do skills - Epic DCs let you partially replicate 1-3 level spells if you eat your vegetables and say please and thank you. One skill that doesn't suck as much as most skills is Iaijutsu Focus, which lets Charisma-oriented characters put the screws on nasties.

So would it really upset anything if utterances were given away for free? The one obvious problem (Gate) would be mitigated by what I think was designer intent anyway, that it's only supposed to be the portal version of Gate and not the calling version. And obviously one still needs to invest ranks into Truespeak and cash moneys into competence bonuses in order to actually use the abilities (I'm imagining a sort of 3.0 Bard-style thing where putting ranks into Perform automatically gave you new stuff).

Or, conversely, would any class actually want to use these things even if they were free? I'm seeing Factotums and maybe various shades of Rogue taking a liking to this, but every other Int-based class has better things to do.

[Psyren]

This is effectively a free Truenamer gestalt for everyone. Which... while it wouldn't necessarily break anything (well, it would if you don't bring the Laws over with the Utterances), doesn't really help the game either. I would see it as Lucid Dreaming 2.0 - another skill toy for TO to play with, but not one that most players would think of or most DMs would be thrilled about allowing.

[avr]

One other class with a decent Int which might take an interest is a warblade.

While spending enough cash on items to stay effective on PCs or their opponents would be a pain, I think the DCs for some area effects (Lexicon of the Perfected Map? Something like that.) stay constant. As such it could be a useful backup tool even for non-Int based classes.

I don't think it'd break anything though if that's what you're asking.

[The Shadowmind]

Truenamer has lots of nice tricks, but they are just that tricks not enough to make a full class out of.
(un)Dispelling, Flight/anti-flight, healing, (see) invisibility, and other buffs/debuffs, Identify without cost, etc.

If it didn't have the dumb rules that go along with it and wasn't limited by a small selection of the utterances to choose from it would likely be a T4-T3 class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's a neat idea. I can certainly see myself grabbing it for any high-Int character. (Especially if you paired it with a DC fix, but that's another matter).

To make it a bit more reasonable, why not require utterances to be purchased skill trick style? Pay1 skill point, learn one utterance.

[Alienist]

Truenaming sucks because ... getting +2 to skills per level is really hard

[Emperor Tippy]

I just make each utterance a feat that can be taken and has a level requirement. Conjunctive gate strips out the calling function and requires at least 18 HD to take.

Another feat makes the Truename skill a class skill and can only be taken at first or third level.

Tends to solve the problem.

If you want to play a Truenamer then you take the fighter variant that adds the Utterance feats to the list you choose your bonus feats from.

The "Truenamer" still isn't good but it is somewhat decent and the true name system as a whole works much better and sees a lot more use.

[Psyren]

Truenaming sucks because ... getting +2 to skills per level is really hard

Difficulty was never the problem, hell Item Familiars are right there in the SRD for all to see. But the amount of coddling they need from the DM compared to other classes can indeed be a turn-off, and even after you've done all that and the checks are guaranteed success they really don't do all that much.

[Valwyn]

If you want to play a Truenamer then you take the fighter variant that adds the Utterance feats to the list you choose your bonus feats from.

I know this isn't the point of the thread, but where is this from?

[Emperor Tippy]

I know this isn't the point of the thread, but where is this from?

Tippy's list of homebrew?

It's my homebrewed quick fix to the Truenamer.

[Valwyn]

D'oh! :smallsigh:
Should have read that more carefully. Thanks for the answer.

[eggynack]

I haven't done a thorough search yet, but if I recall correctly, there's a good list of utterances that help out wizards. Thus, truenaming might actually be pretty good on a wizard. I don't know if it'd be worth the price, because you'd need to spend a fair bit of your spell finding money to do this, but I can imagine some pretty strong wizard//truenamer synergy existing.

[Emperor Tippy]

I haven't done a thorough search yet, but if I recall correctly, there's a good list of utterances that help out wizards. Thus, truenaming might actually be pretty good on a wizard. I don't know if it'd be worth the price, because you'd need to spend a fair bit of your spell finding money to do this, but I can imagine some pretty strong wizard//truenamer synergy existing.

I tend to spend the skill points to max it on high level wizards. Truename Dispel is one of the best spells in the game. If you know that you are going to be facing a specific enemy then you investigate and get their name and then you get to strip off all of their buffs with no CL check, no save, no SR, and no carrying about "can only be dispelled in X way" (it can even rip off Epic Spell buffs or debuffs) and when you don't, you should know the parties Truenames. That means you can rip off all of those nasty debilitating conditions that were dumped on you with no problem and without touching your buffs.

Unname is also great for disposing of those pesky artifacts and any other items that you want to be positively sure aren't coming back.

[Karnith]

I haven't done a thorough search yet, but if I recall correctly, there's a good list of utterances that help out wizards. Thus, truenaming might actually be pretty good on a wizard. I don't know if it'd be worth the price, because you'd need to spend a fair bit of your spell finding money to do this, but I can imagine some pretty strong wizard//truenamer synergy existing.
Some utterances that stick out as being cool to use on yourself are Caster Lens, which gives you +2 CL for three rounds, Magic Contraction (reversed), which gets you Empower Spell to every spell you cast for 5 rounds, Silent Caster, which gets you Silent Spell to your spells for 1 round, and Spell Rebirth, which gets you back an effect that was dismissed or dispelled in the past round.

[Chronos]

Quoth Emperor Tippy:

Another feat makes the Truename skill a class skill and can only be taken at first or third level.
This is already in the Tome of Magic, except that it can be taken whenever you want, and it also pays you back for any cross-class ranks you've ever bought.

And yes, getting +2 per level to a skill is easy... for most skills. That's because most skills are the same across all the books, and thus have an entire edition supporting them. Want a big boost to Jump? Just cast the Jump spell, or be a thri-kreen, or whatever. Want a big boost to Bluff? Glibness, Serene Visage, Voice of the Dragon, Beguiling Influence. But since Truespeech only shows up at all in two books (thank you, Complete Champion), the only things that work with it are those that say "any skill", and that's not all that many.

[Segev]

Were I to support such an alteration, here's how I'd probably try to implement it:

Having training in the Truenaming skill enables you to attempt any of the Utterances et al that Truenaming allows.
The various laws about concurrent activation, increased DC with each re-use, etc. remain in effect.
Anybody can use them, though, as long as they're trained.
Truenamers still have their list of "utterances known" and the like.
Truenamers, like anybody else trained in the skill, can use any utterance and the like that they wish and for which they can make the DC.
Truenamers, however, may add their class level as a bonus to the activation of any of their "known Utterances (etc.)"
"Known utterances" and the like would also have the law that prevents multiple concurrent activations lifted.