Is there a PF Assassin guide somewhere?

[Frosty]

One of my friends is dead set on going Drow Rogue 5/Assassin 10/?? (prolly rogue) 5 in an Evil campaign. I can't find a guide to the PF assassin anywhere. Can anyone point me to one or give me advise so I can help my friend?

[Psyren]

There isn't a whole lot of depth to the PF Assassin, because it doesn't get spells. So I don't think a handbook would be likely; the advice would boil down to "be a (melee) rogue, and try to get a death attack in on the first round of combat because you're unlikely to get a second one before the fight ends."

The Red Mantis Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/red-mantis-assassin) is much closer to the 3.5 version and would be worth a handbook since their list is so variable, but I don't know if there is one.

[grarrrg]

There isn't a whole lot of depth to the PF Assassin, because it doesn't get spells. So I don't think a handbook would be likely; the advice would boil down to "be a (melee) rogue, and try to get a death attack in on the first round of combat because you're unlikely to get a second one before the fight ends."

The Red Mantis Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/red-mantis-assassin) is much closer to the 3.5 version and would be worth a handbook since their list is so variable, but I don't know if there is one.

Mainly what he said.

The upsides of Assassin are few.
It's pre-reqs are SUPER easy, so virtually anyone can qualify.
It gets full Sneak Attack, and Reg and Imp. Uncanny Dodge.
And eventually gets Hide in Plain Sight.

I can see it as a decent way for a Rogue (or Ninja) who traded away Uncanny Dodge for an Archetype to get it back.
It's other main use is for 'quicker' entry into Arcane Trickster.


The main downside to Red Mantis Assassin is the Pre-reqs, and the fact that you are pretty much set on using one weapon (Sawtooth Sabre).
But it's abilities are overall much better than 'plain' Assassin.

[Frosty]

Red Mantis Assassin seems cool, but my friend really like the regular Assassin class (he's gonna play an evil Batman. Have spider climb active. Study for 3 rounds. Drop down and do a quiet assassination, then climb back outta there) and be doesn't want Spells for some reason.

Is there any reliable way to get Death Attack more than once per combat?

[Psyren]

How's he getting Spider Climb without spells?

There are two big obstacles stopping you from DA more than 1/fight - first, it takes 3 rounds when combat rarely makes it to 5, and second, the target can't recognize you as an enemy the entire time, which is hard to do during a fight. At 9th level, the PF Assassin can do a death attack without studying but only 1/day, and it's still subject to the second restriction.

[Frosty]

1) Drow. There's a racial feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/spider-step-drow) to get Spider Climb 1/day as an SLA.

2) He plans on finding a way to go invisible during a fight (maybe a friendly spellcaster). He says that since the enemies can't see him, they can't recognize him as a threat for the 3 rounds. Of course, even if this works, I'm not convinced that the action economy is worth it.

[Keneth]

The PF assassin was such a huge disappointment to me that I removed the entire class and replaced with my own homebrewed base class that gets nice things. Then again, Pathfinder was never big on prestige classes, so it's no surprise the vast majority of them suck. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

1) Drow. There's a racial feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/spider-step-drow) to get Spider Climb 1/day as an SLA.

2) He plans on finding a way to go invisible during a fight (maybe a friendly spellcaster). He says that since the enemies can't see him, they can't recognize him as a threat for the 3 rounds. Of course, even if this works, I'm not convinced that the action economy is worth it.

1) Ick, no way that's worth a feat to me. But, his character I guess.

2) It's definitely not. He could attack for all 3 of those rounds and likely bring the target down instead. Optimized, he should be able to drop any target with at most 2 rounds worth of attacks, freeing up the third. And Death Attack definitely isn't worth giving up Advanced Talents for. I would simply be a straight rogue (or better yet, a Ninja) and call myself an assassin.


The PF assassin was such a huge disappointment to me that I removed the entire class and replaced with my own homebrewed base class that gets nice things. Then again, Pathfinder was never big on prestige classes, so it's no surprise the vast majority of them suck. :smallbiggrin:

There are some nice ones for casters - but for most of those, the base class has more than enough toys on its own, so they are weaker by comparison. I've always wanted to play a Diviner/Harrower for example.

[Frosty]

He likes flavor over optimizing for this, and he is dead set on Death Attack (again, the whole Batman thing. Swoop in silently, kill, get out) and won't go straight rogue or Ninja.

I mean, his level 1 feat is Weapon Finesse (which is good). His level 3 feat is Spider Step (instead of TWF). His level 5 feat is probably some sort of Extra Rogue Talent so he can do Sleight of Hand better (there's a talent to hide your weapon in plain sight) so he can apply death attack easier. He really wants to be able to just walk up to a person, weapon hidden with sleigh of hand, then KERSTAB DEATH ATTACK and then leave. I'm not sure he's ever going to take TWF (7th level feat probably Ability Focus: Death Attack).

So yeah, I gotta optimize around this.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually is there any PF prestige class that could be considered a straight upgrade to the intended entry class (I know it is somewhat nebolous, but I am sure we can make pretty accurate guesses)? Most of them get some cool tricks, but they usually tradea lot (which is fine from a design standpoint, but in many cases I find it just weakens the character overall).

In fact this gives me an idea for a houserule, would it be overpowered to let non-casting classes progress stuff like Rogue talents or the like, probably at lower speed, like say a rogue who goes into assassin gets a rogue talent every 4 Assassin levels in addition to their normal class abilities.

[Psyren]

Could you at least convince him to UMD a Spider Climb wand and save the feat? That way he can at least get ability focus or whatever else earlier in his build.

Anyhow... the only way I can see death attack being relevant more than once in a fight is if the fight is dragging on for awhile. Which basically means that everyone else is playing suboptimally too. You can't even just add more critters to the combat because then he will have to spend even more time studying the newcomers. It's just a mess really.


Actually is there any PF prestige class that could be considered a straight upgrade to the intended entry class (I know it is somewhat nebolous, but I am sure we can make pretty accurate guesses)? Most of them get some cool tricks, but they usually tradea lot (which is fine from a design standpoint, but in many cases I find it just weakens the character overall).

I wouldn't call any of them "straight upgrades" - PF PrCs usually push you towards a very specific concept. You'll be very good at that concept but weaker when it isn't called for, so the idea is to pick something that you know will be relevant or that fits your character thematically.

For instance, Collegiate Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/magaambyan-arcanist) has lots of advantages for a wizard - you get to add Druid spells and Good Domain spells to your spellbook for free, you get to reshuffle your Spell Mastery spells and even cast them spontaneously, and the class is easy to qualify for and doesn't cost you any CL. But it's not necessarily better than Wiz 20.



In fact this gives me an idea for a houserule, would it be overpowered to let non-casting classes progress stuff like Rogue talents or the like, probably at lower speed, like say a rogue who goes into assassin gets a rogue talent every 4 Assassin levels in addition to their normal class abilities.

Not at all, I would definitely allow this. Without Advanced Talents and spellcasting, Assassin is very weak.

[grarrrg]

Can you try talking him into Master Spy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-spy) instead?
It's more 'stealth/sneaky' flavored than outright killing, but it DOES get +4d6 Sneak Attack AND Death Attack.

Ninja > Master Spy is plenty better for what he wants than Rogue > Assassin.

[Psyren]

Their death attack is 9 levels later though. Ouch!

[Frosty]

Yeah he's not waiting THAT long for Death Attack. Or else he'd just go Rogue 20, who gets to Death Attack with every sneak attack.

Okay, Mastery Spy DOES seems interesting though...thanks to one thing:
At 8th level, a master spy learns the art of killing or paralyzing a foe with a careful strike. This ability functions as the assassin’s death attack ability. If the master spy has levels in another class that grants the death attack ability, these levels stack with her master spy level to determine the DC of her death attack, even if she has not yet reached 8th level as a master spy.
This means that after taking 2 levels of assassin (although my friend might take 9 or all 10 anyways because he's like that), he could switch to Master Spy. The save DC for will awesome. At level 20, it'll be 10 + Int Mod + 15 (assassin levels + Mastery Spy levels) + 2 (ability focus).

DC will likely be around 30 or so. 30 fort save or die is pretty decent.

And he's not taking UMD. He dumped CHA.

[Psyren]

And he's not taking UMD. He dumped CHA.

Honestly that's not a big deal - with the +3 bonus from rogue you'll have a decent shot even with a negative Cha mod. There are way too many useful spells out there to rely on potions for all of them.

[Frosty]

+3 from rogue? you mean class skill bonus?

[Drelua]

Does he know about the Master Ninja Trick Assassinate? It's basically Death Attack, but with a save DC that progresses more slowly. Between that and Invisible Blade, he should have no problem being Batman, and he could get his UMD high enough to auto-succeed with a wand effortlessly.

[RaviStrife]

Actually, I was just working on a character that will lead into this.

Here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=689782) a link for your perusal. It's only built up until level 5, but I think it would make an absolutely sick assassin as soon as he goes evil.

My primary concern in building the character was ways of regaining stealth when things go south. Both talents are directed at this by picking up as many uses of Vanish as a SLA as possible. This provides 4 times daily use of invisibility as a swift action, no verbal or somatic components required.

I'm also considering making Smoke pellets for use as smoke bombs. You only need concealment to hide, so you could literally drop a pellet at your feet, hide in the smoke as part of your movement, and suddenly you've regained stealth. Extra points if you play this as your dramatic exit.

Elven racial provides darkvision by swapping out lowlight vision, as well as extra uses for your SLA -Vanish. Normally the ability would be capped at 2 times daily.

I would imagine a background in alchemy would be a given, considering you're basically obligated to use poison as a Assassin.
Hopefully this at least gives you a direction to start out in. Good luck!

[grarrrg]

This means that after taking 2 levels of assassin (although my friend might take 9 or all 10 anyways because he's like that), he could switch to Master Spy. The save DC for will awesome. At level 20, it'll be 10 + Int Mod + 15 (assassin levels + Mastery Spy levels) + 2 (ability focus).

DC will likely be around 30 or so. 30 fort save or die is pretty decent.

And he's not taking UMD. He dumped CHA.

I actually didn't notice that Death Attack from Master Spy 'stacked' before it actually got the ability...this is looking nicer and nicer as it goes. 5 levels of Rogue with 15 of "Master Assassin" means a 25+INT DC for Death Attack...not too shabby.

Rogue 5 / Assassin 2 / "Master Assassin" 13
End result would be at least 5 levels each of Assassin and Master Spy.

I guess there are 2 questions:
Uncanny Dodge from Rogue? or skip it?
5 levels of Assassin will get Imp Uncanny Dodge anyway, so is it worth it to A: Have Imp Uncanny at level 7, with a higher "effective Rogue level" for flanking defense, or B: Trade Rogue Uncanny Dodge away for an Archetype bonus?

Next question is how good are Assassin levels 5-10, vs. Master Spy 5-10?
Sadly, the 'really good' abilities are mutually exclusive :smallfrown:
Assassin gets Hide in Plain Sight at level 8, and Swift Death at 9 (he's almost certainly going to want Swift Death). The 10th level of Assassin is kind of a let down though, flavor-fully it's pretty awesome, but mechanically...eh.

Master Spy gets constant Mind Blank at 9, can be pretty sweet.

Oh, well, I guess all-in-all Rogue 5/Assassin 10/Master Spy 5 isn't all that bad.

Still pushing for Ninja over Rogue though.


Does he know about the Master Ninja Trick Assassinate? It's basically Death Attack, but with a save DC that progresses more slowly.

Upside: It only requires 1 round of study
Downside: You only have 1 round to make the attempt. The DC scales kinda slow (compared to stacking 'Master Assassin' levels), and if the target makes their Save, they become Immune to Assassinates for 1 day.

[Frosty]

I can't decide whether to convince my friend take 9 levels of Assassin and 6 Master Spy or 10 Mastery Spy and 5 Assassin.

[grarrrg]

There are 3 archetypes that trade Uncanny Dodge that are worth looking at, and ALL of them are compatible with Ninja (if necessary).

Bandit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/bandit): Gets full actions during a Surprise Round.

Sanctified Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/sanctified-rogue): +1 Sacred bonus to Fort and Will.
(note: in the case of Evil characters this should probably be a Profane bonus, and/or there is nothing preventing Evil characters from taking this archetype. do with this what you will)

Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout): During a Charge the target is considered Flat-Footed.

[Frosty]

Sanctified Rogue is weak. The other two look good. I'll recommend those to my friend.

[grarrrg]

Sanctified Rogue is weak. The other two look good. I'll recommend those to my friend.

Yeah, but he's only going to have 5 Rogue/Ninja levels anyway, and Sacred is an uncommon type of bonus to his two weaker Saves, so it isn't horrible.

[Frosty]

Being able to act fully in the surprise round makes Death Attacks even easier to land. And of course getting SA on the charge is also nice for general damage.

Sigh, he's not eve going TWF. He's just going to wield one weapon and be an utility rogue, taking the minor and major magic rogue talents. Well, we'll see how he fares. He's definitely gonna take Assassin and Master Spy now that I told him how Death Attack stacks.

[grarrrg]

Sigh, he's not eve going TWF. He's just going to wield one weapon and be an utility rogue, taking the minor and major magic rogue talents. Well, we'll see how he fares. He's definitely gonna take Assassin and Master Spy now that I told him how Death Attack stacks.

Well...it's a start.
And he can still always 2-hand something if/when needed.

[Frosty]

Well...it's a start.
And he can still always 2-hand something if/when needed.
2 hand what? Also, he's got like 10 Str.

[grarrrg]

2 hand what? Also, he's got like 10 Str.

I don't think his ability scores have come up yet...

In that case...Carry on.

[Spore]

Tell him to be a Ninja 18/Assassin 1/Shadow Dancer 1 to be effective. Hide in Plain Sight, Ninja Tricks, Ki Pool, Poison Use, all that nifty stuff. Actually screw that, be Ninja 5/SD 1/Ninja 14 instead. Or dip 1 level of rogue for trap finding.

[grarrrg]

Tell him to be a Ninja 18/Assassin 1/Shadow Dancer 1 to be effective. Hide in Plain Sight, Ninja Tricks, Ki Pool, Poison Use, all that nifty stuff. Actually screw that, be Ninja 5/SD 1/Ninja 14 instead. Or dip 1 level of rogue for trap finding.

Yes, thank you, we covered that.
Repeatedly.
And about 6 other options better than Assassin.
His friend _DEMANDS_ Assassin.

Best case scenario is he takes 5 levels of Ninja and never looks back.

[Cerlis]

the "problem" with death attack is the notion to use it in combat. He should be going ahead of the team and taking out single people by himself and with people he expects he could encounter trouble wait for the team.

death attacks are for assassinations. not combat.

In combat you use sneak attack.

[Frosty]

Yes, thank you, we covered that.
Repeatedly.
And about 6 other options better than Assassin.
His friend _DEMANDS_ Assassin.

Best case scenario is he takes 5 levels of Ninja and never looks back.My friend also wants Rogue talents, not Ninja tricks (for the SLAs apparently. He wants to be self-sufficient). However, I did talk him into relying on ITEMS for spider climb instead of spending a feat for it.

Cerlis is spot on. He wants to be able to clear small groups of guards by himself, without being detected, so the rest of us clunky folks can get into position for a mission easier. In combat, he says he's gonna rely on others for damage. However, the rest of the party is a controller/debuffer style Wizard, and an Oracle of some sort (forgot what mystery. Not melee inclined), who are not known for their damage output.

Me, I'm a Summoner who's going to eventually let my Eidolon deal 36d8 damage with an Improved Vital Strike slam, but if I'm the only big damage dealer, then I worry...

[grarrrg]

My friend also wants Rogue talents, not Ninja tricks (for the SLAs apparently. He wants to be self-sufficient). However, I did talk him into relying on ITEMS for spider climb instead of spending a feat for it.

?
There's a Ninja Trick called "Rogue Talent".
It let's you take a Rogue Talent in place of a Ninja Trick.
It can be taken multiple times.

There is also a Rogue Talent called "Ninja Trick".
It let's you take a Ninja Trick in place of a Rogue Talent.
It can be taken multiple times.

Recommend using one, to get the other, to get the first again, to get the second again, to..........


*THWACK!*
Err...where was I?

Alternate Spider Climb option, grab the Ninja Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) "Wall Climber" you now have a permanent 20ft. Climb Speed (vertical surfaces only, not horizontal).

[Frosty]

Are you SURE they can be taken multiple times?

*check* oh cool you CAN

[Psyren]

The one you can't take multiple times is the one that gives you a Combat Feat.

[The Random NPC]

IIRC, Ninja's are prevented from taking Rogue tricks with the same name as a Ninja trick, but Rogue's are not prevented from taking Ninja tricks in any way.

[Psyren]

IIRC, Ninja's are prevented from taking Rogue tricks with the same name as a Ninja trick, but Rogue's are not prevented from taking Ninja tricks in any way.

Many Ninja Tricks use ki however, which is both a talent tax for a Rogue and makes them MAD.

[Frosty]

Wall climber does not take any Ki points, but he might just use equipment anyways like slippers of spider climb.

[The Random NPC]

Many Ninja Tricks use ki however, which is both a talent tax for a Rogue and makes them MAD.

The biggest benefit is that you can double up on some of the tricks, like the one that gives a feat.

[Frosty]

my friend will only take 5 levels of rogue. That gives 2 Rogue talents. He's already spending feats to GET more rogue talents, so he won't be using the talents to get feat :smallbiggrin: