Telekinetic Thrust/Sneak Attack ?

[JW86]

As a newbie, I am wondering - would these stack?

I.E. my character has 18+5d6 sneak attack damage with the feat craven, and an ML of 11. If I was to send 11 daggers flying into an enemy from a hidden position, what would happen?

Actually, my character has levels in Assassin - how would this stack with death attack? - I think death attack is melee only (don't have books to hand).

[Lord Vukodlak]

As a newbie, I am wondering - would these stack?

I.E. my character has 18+5d6 sneak attack damage with the feat craven, and an ML of 11. If I was to send 11 daggers flying into an enemy from a hidden position, what would happen?

Actually, my character has levels in Assassin - how would this stack with death attack? - I think death attack is melee only (don't have books to hand).
Its a volley so the sneak attack would only apply on the first attack roll.

[Crake]

Its a volley so the sneak attack would only apply on the first attack roll.

unless you found a way to make the power manifest as a full round action.

[Lord Vukodlak]

unless you found a way to make the power manifest as a full round action.

Err no that's not going to change anything.

[Boci]

Err no that's not going to change anything.

The Rules Compendium stated that an any method to make multiples attacks not from a full round action would only benefit once from sneak attack damage, so barring that trick of words where-by the RC is invalidated by the PRemium's reprint, I think it does.

[Psyren]

unless you found a way to make the power manifest as a full round action.

If WotC had any sense at all they would make Rules Compendium OGL. There's no purpose at all to making their rules segregated by the availability/price of one book.

In any case, the volley rules are moot - per Hide, you can only fire one shot before needing to Hide again (at a -20 penalty.) If you don't, your other shots will not be from a "hidden position" and you won't get SA. You need total concealment (e.g. invisibility) to make this work so that you don't need to hide again.

[Boci]

If WotC had any sense at all they would make Rules Compendium OGL. There's no purpose at all to making their rules segregated by the availability/price of one book.

In any case, the volley rules are moot - per Hide, you can only fire one shot before needing to Hide again (at a -20 penalty.) If you don't, your other shots will not be from a "hidden position" and you won't get SA. You need total concealment (e.g. invisibility) to make this work so that you don't need to hide again.

Put won't the target still be flat footed? They haven't acted yet.

[Taveena]

What about the Hide While Attacking rule, as opposed to the Sniping rule? I mean, as long as you have cover (or HIPS), then you can pew pew for the whole round.

[Psyren]

Put won't the target still be flat footed? They haven't acted yet.

There's two kinds of flat-footed - "haven't acted yet" (i.e. first round of combat), and "attacked by hidden attacker." (RC 92.) I was referring to the latter.

[Boci]

There's two kinds of flat-footed - "haven't acted yet" (i.e. first round of combat), and "attacked by hidden attacker." (RC 92.) I was referring to the latter.

Okay, but for the former it will still work right? Or even during the surprise round, if you have hustle for an extra move action (assuming there is a way to turn the manifestation of telekinetic thrust into a full round action).

[Psyren]

Okay, but for the former it will still work right? Or even during the surprise round, if you have hustle for an extra move action (assuming there is a way to turn the manifestation of telekinetic thrust into a full round action).

Yeah, if they haven't acted yet they'll be flat-footed until they do.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The Rules Compendium stated that an any method to make multiples attacks not from a full round action would only benefit once from sneak attack damage, so barring that trick of words where-by the RC is invalidated by the PRemium's reprint, I think it does.

In RC Looking under spell results and "Multiple Hits" it says the extra damage only applies to the first attack. The line about "other than a full-round action" is abstinence. But really we all know they're talking about a full-attack as being the exception.

[Boci]

In RC Looking under spell results and "Multiple Hits" it says the extra damage only applies to the first attack. The line about "other than a full-round action" is abstinence. But really we all know they're talking about a full-attack as being the exception.

Okay, I was going off this:



Rules Compendium states that the default rule is: If you make multiple attacks, and you don't take a full-round action to do it, then only one benefits from precision damage.

There are specific exceptions to this. However, they are explicitly noted. Greater Manyshot is an example.

If, however, a Sorceror were to empower a Scorching Ray, the spell would require a full round action. In such a case, it should qualify for precision damage on all shots. This is because the Rules Compendium supercedes the text in Complete Arcane.

[Psyren]

The RC reading is really up to your DM. I happen to agree with Vukodlak that it was meant to apply to full-attacks rather than artificially extending your casting/manifesting time to a full-round action (which is supposed to be a drawback, not a benefit) but I can see why others rule it the way they do. It's just one more example of poor editing/opaque intent for the community to disagree about.

[Boci]

The RC reading is really up to your DM. I happen to agree with Vukodlak that it was meant to apply to full-attacks rather than artificially extending your casting/manifesting time to a full-round action (which is supposed to be a drawback, not a benefit) but I can see why others rule it the way they do. It's just one more example of poor editing/opaque intent for the community to disagree about.

Can you quote the text? Personally I'd decide on a case by case basis. So I'd probably allow a rogish to apply SA to all scorching rays, but would be less likely for this combo.

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, if they haven't acted yet they'll be flat-footed until they do.
If that's the case then the attack has to either be in a surprise round, or the first regular round of combat and at a higher initiative count. In the surprise round you won't have a full-round action available, so you can't get a volley attack exception. There's a very small window in which it's possible to get off a volley attack against a flat-footed foe.

[Boci]

If that's the case then the attack has to either be in a surprise round, or the first regular round of combat and at a higher initiative count. In the surprise round you won't have a full-round action available, so you can't get a volley attack exception.

Can't you manifest hustle for an extra move action?

[Psyren]

Can you quote the text? Personally I'd decide on a case by case basis. So I'd probably allow a rogish to apply SA to all scorching rays, but would be less likely for this combo.

Sure thing! RC 42, "Precision Damage":

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group."

Because it says "full-round action" rather than "full-attack," many folks consider other full-round actions like metamagicked sorcerer spells to apply SA to every hit. Again, I don't allow it, but it does seem to be strict RAW.

EDIT:


Can't you manifest hustle for an extra move action?

Yes, because you can take free actions during the surprise round.

"You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. "

Thus you can manifest Hustle, and now you have a standard + move to use in the surprise round. This is another reason why Psychic Rogues are powerful skillmonkeys despite having lower sneak attack than their mundane cousins.

[Curmudgeon]

Can't you manifest hustle for an extra move action?
Yes, but that still won't help. A standard action plus a move action isn't the same as a full-round action. You can take a standard action and a move action if you have a full-round action available, but you can't "assemble" a full-round action. A surprise round only allows a standard action.