Psion Question

[DwarfInTheFlask]

This is not the same author, borrowing his pc and his account to ask the question.

Now I was reading about the Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster Feats of 3.5.

Is there anyway to get the Psion or Erudite to use those feats to get the same supposed loophole or giving them a spellbook and access to the Wiz/Sorcerer spell list?

I know the Erudite has the Spell to Power Variant, what would this do for that class substitution?

[DMVerdandi]

This is not the same author, borrowing his pc and his account to ask the question.

Now I was reading about the Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster Feats of 3.5.

Is there anyway to get the Psion or Erudite to use those feats to get the same supposed loophole or giving them a spellbook and access to the Wiz/Sorcerer spell list?

I know the Erudite has the Spell to Power Variant, what would this do for that class substitution?

Umm, no?
I don't understand why that would interact with anything. The problem with it all is that there is no way to increase that caster level without possibly taking a prestige class. Secondly, you don't add the spellbook to your powers list.
And thirdly, you only have 0 level slots.


Erudite powers naturally come from the psion list, as it is a variant psion.
With Spell to power, it can add spells to that list as powers. It isn't cheese and it actually works pretty well, depending on if you use the erudite as intended (Which gives it 11 UPD. That way it ends up like a wilder with a whole lot more variety.)

Of course,any tier 1 can be cheesed out, but erudite, played conservatively is pretty cool.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Well I cannot say the Erudite has any one way it is intended to run as the Complete Psionics books entry was all kinds of confusing due to the wording and the table being off from one another.

Well I have seen arguments for the feats giving you the ability to scribe spells into your spellbook because borrowed spells require a Spellcheck and these feats do not call for that, it states you do so as a wizard which means you have scribed these three 0 level spells as if you had the wizard's spell list.

If you had access to only the level 0 spells of the Wizards spell list you still have access to the Wizards spell list. I don't know of any class who uses only a piece of any full spell list as their normal class feature no caster I can name has only a level or two of any spell list. Either they have access to the spell list or not. There is no grey area.

If you prepare them as a Wizard doesn't that mean you prepare them as if you where a wizard? Wouldn't that give you Wizard Spell slots? It doesn't say that of course but in the wording it says "You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or wizard (your choice, so long as you have a score of at least 10 in the ability that controls the spellcasting for that class)."
Now a Wizard and Sorcerer have different 0 level spell progressions.
This means you cast them as one or the other. Meaning it is giving you their spell slots to cast them A Wizard has 3 at lvl 1, and a Sorcerer 4 at level 1

So this could be giving you spell slots right?
Magical Training Feat (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/magical-training--1834/)

[Xuldarinar]

I feel i do have to clarify this. Below is a table reflecting actual erudite level, and unique powers per day.


Table 1-1: Erudite Unique Power/Day
-|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1
2nd|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2
3rd|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2|2
4th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3
5th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3
6th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4
7th|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4
8th|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|5
9th|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|5
10th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
11th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
12th|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7
13th|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7
14th|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|8
15th|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|8|8
16th|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9
17th|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9|9
18th|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10
19th|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10
20th|11|11|11|11|11|11|11|11|11

Now, lets say your build is you only get up to erudite 5, and the rest of your build is off of that. Even if your manifester level is 20, your are only getting 3 unique powers per day at each power level. I believe this to be the intent, as nowhere does it say Unique powers is advanced by +1 level of existing manifesting class.

As a result, theurgic builds: Erudite 3/Something else 3/a theurgic PrC x/so on. Really, you only have 2 unique powers per day, per power level.


And back to the fundamental question: No. In part because versatile spellcaster and magical training don't really interact, at least if you select to cast as a wizard. With StP erudite, at best you'll be able to turn your assortment of 0 level spells into powers… although, I wonder.. can you successfully copy down a spell you are not high enough to cast it? Of course at that point, why not just convert it directly into a power?

[DwarfInTheFlask]

My question is more if the magical training works, wouldn't it by the way its worded allow you to cast spells as a wizard, meaning give you wizard spell slots? This would be slots outside of your normal resources.

So if you where an Erudite that means you have a UPD and Wizard Spell Slots.
So you could of course copy the spells from the book to Powers but that does not remove the spells from the spell book.

So you could cast the spell to power variant of the same spell and then next turn cast a that spell using a Wizard spell slot.

Basically couldn't this be used to bypass that UPD or at least give you a little more flexability since I know at low level of Erudite you're dang near useless with a 1 power per day and you don't exactly know the best powers and you have no access to any 0 level powers or anything either.

[Psyren]

I feel i do have to clarify this. Below is a table reflecting actual erudite level, and unique powers per day.

This is highly unlikely to be the intended interpretation. 99 UPD is not a meaningful limit under any circumstance, nor even 44. If you have more UPD than a Psion has total powers known, there is no reason at all to ever be a Psion.



If you had access to only the level 0 spells of the Wizards spell list you still have access to the Wizards spell list. I don't know of any class who uses only a piece of any full spell list as their normal class feature no caster I can name has only a level or two of any spell list. Either they have access to the spell list or not. There is no grey area.

There are in fact several of these. Suel Arcanamach for instance can choose from among any sor/wiz spell but only from abjuration, divination, transmutation and illusion schools, and Fist of Zuoken can choose any Psywar power but only up to 5th level.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I am asking if this could be used. I mean if the Magical Training is as I read it this feat along makes the Wizard useless.

You could be a Psion and also casting spells like a wizard
A Warblade with 1 feat gain full wizard spell slot progression.

I say this because it allows you to scribe yourself three spells. You cannot scribe spells outside of your spell lists, this means the three spells MUST come from YOUR spell list the Wizard/Sorc spell list. You cannot cast spells without spell slots, unless they where SLA, which this does not list them as.

So it gives you the Wizard/Sorc Spell List, it also gives you spell slots. It gives you the ability to scribe spells and a spell book.

Now the only argument might come from that it doesn't give you any more spell slots then the 3 level 0 spell slots as many times per day as 3 or 4 (Wizard or Sorcerer)

But the wording is not restrictive. In fact with the mention of If you choose to cast spells as a sorcerer, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Cha modifier. You know two 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list. If you choose to cast spells as a wizard, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Int modifier. That could be argued to say its adding two more spells to your 3 if you choose to be a sorcerer.

[Xuldarinar]

This is highly unlikely to be the intended interpretation. 99 UPD is not a meaningful limit under any circumstance, nor even 44. If you have more UPD than a Psion has total powers known, there is no reason at all to ever be a Psion.

This is only in a comparison between Erudite 20 and Psion 20 however. Psions would certainly make for better characters if you intend to multiclass at all, using the RaW interpretation. RaI-wise I understand the dispute perfectly, but the RaW is still pretty much black and white.



Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of psionic powers of each level per day from his repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

[Psyren]

I know what the RAW is, no need to quote it at me. Yes, WotC stupidly declared text trumps table without making sure their text actually made sense; I'm talking about the way things should be, not the way they are. And no, it's not just at 20 - you eclipse a Psion's powers known as early as level 7, and it only gets worse from there.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

A Wizard knows more spells then a sorcerer and does throughout their progression. Yes they cast fewer spells via table but INT is a better score for spells to key off then Charisma. With a High INT a Wizard bypasses a Sorcerer and a Sorcerer needs a decent INT for skills. So why play a Sorcerer when a Wizard learns more spells, cast likely cast more spells off Ability Score bonuses then a Sorcerer?

[Psyren]

The simple reason to play a Sorcerer is that you don't have to prepare your spells in advance. Neither the Erudite nor the Psion face this restriction, so the comparison doesn't work. (And if you use one of several cheesy tricks to make your Wizard spontaneous, then there is indeed no reason to be a sorcerer.)

[DwarfInTheFlask]

My point was that your argument is not very strong because the Psion and Erudite are both Tier 2 without StP so there is no reason to play the Erudite when you can play the Psion but I do not hear you argue for there needing to be a nitch for the Erudite.

Erudite is the Wizard where the Psion is the Sorcerer, Erudite can do it better but it takes longer to acquire as much power. To even be able to make use of the RAW UPD you need to invest a lot of time, money, and exp into getting spells and powers to fill those slots.

A power is locked in once used, at lvl 1 an Erudite has 1 power it can use per day and 2 from its pp list. Typically this ends up around 5 with race and INT bonuses. So they can make use of this 1 power 5 times per day. A wizard and any other spell caster can make much more use of themselves then this, casting multiple types of spells and even making use of things like Scrolls and such at low level.

My question is if I was reading Magical Training at least somewhat correctly. That it gives you 3 level 0 spells from the Sorcer/Wizard spell list, that by understanding of the magical system that means it gives access to both scribing spells into your personal spell book, access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, and would have to grant you spell slots to cast them as it comes down to Casts as Sorcerer or Wizard and uses the same ability scores to run them.

If tagged onto an Erudite I could see that getting ride of the weak opening level of the Erudite and even if you run the 11 powers per day at lvl 20 it would give you a full wizard gestalt like spell list at lvl 20.
As a Psion it would do the same but not give the bonus cross over of casting spells as powers as a StP Erudite could (Memorizing a spell from a book does not erase said spell from book)

[Psyren]

My point was that your argument is not very strong because the Psion and Erudite are both Tier 2 without StP so there is no reason to play the Erudite when you can play the Psion but I do not hear you argue for there needing to be a nitch for the Erudite.

I disagree, there's plenty of reason to be an Erudite - not only do they get an extra feat over a Psion (free Psicrystal, which every Psion wants), they also save a lot of feats on Expanded Knowledge that a Psion would normally feel obligated to buy. Barring Chirurgery shenanigans, a Psion who wants Metamorphosis, Schism and Fly is going to need to burn at least two feats to get them all, while the Erudite gets away with spending zero, and even gets them all at the same time the Psion would. The gp cost to do so is a joke, and the XP cost doesn't matter because XP is a river. So again, plenty of reason to be an Erudite built right into the class even without giving them oodles of UPD. There is simply no reasonable circumstance under which you would need 90+ or even 30+ different powers in a given day.

I agree that 1 UPD at 1st-level +1 every 2 levels after that is too few, but I disagree that the solution is to make UPD an utterly pointless limitation in response. My preferred solution is to give them 2 UPD at first-level, +1 each subsequent level up to 21 (i.e. the Ardent PK progression.) It's still less than a Psion's PK, but it's enough so that you don't feel totally hamstrung at low levels while still being an actual limitation at high levels.

[Segev]

Honestly, I've always found the "Unique Powers per Day" limitation to be ... well, clumsy. It's clearly purely about trying to balance an overpowered idea: the psion who can learn powers as easily as a wizard learns spells. This is overpowered because Psionics are not spells and the idea of "storing" them in spellbooks and "preparing" them ahead of time doesn't jive with their flavor. They inherently are spontaneous.

As an aside, the Psion was originally the "psionic wizard" despite its spontaneous nature; the Wilder was supposed to be the "psionic sorcerer." This didn't work out all that well, but it was the intent.

I think a better solution might have been to try to expand the "manifesting powers from another repertoire" rules. Something that made it so that a psion - perhaps with a feat, perhaps with a PrC - could access or even shuffle between power crystals, and use their powers more often. As is, the protection against cheese makes it so that a psion has the choice of using the power crystal normally, or of spending time and his own power points to manifest the power, and STILL expend the crystal.

But the Erudite just doesn't work, fluff-wise, and is clumsy mechanically. And it's not just because its write-up is poorly done.

[Psyren]

As is, the protection against cheese makes it so that a psion has the choice of using the power crystal normally, or of spending time and his own power points to manifest the power, and STILL expend the crystal.

While this method does flush the stone anyway, it still has advantages - namely, you can apply your own ML, ability scores and even metapsionic feats to the power within the stone (CPsi 105.) This even lets you augment powers within stones. So a stone becomes more like a single-shot stave.

[Segev]

While this method does flush the stone anyway, it still has advantages - namely, you can apply your own ML, ability scores and even metapsionic feats to the power within the stone (CPsi 105.) This even lets you augment powers within stones. So a stone becomes more like a single-shot stave.

At the expense of more time to manifest it (got to make contact, etc.) and the power points to expend on said manifestation. In general, I can't see this being worth it.

I think you even have to expend the exp if the power has such a cost, making that cost 2x-paid. Once by you, once by the stone's maker.

I suppose it could be useful with a stone of Psychic Chiurgery, use it to give it to yourself. Then you can go find other psions with powers you want and contact their minds, treat yourself as knowing the pwoer you take from them, and then give it to yourself with PC.

Still ludicrously pricey.

[Psyren]

At the expense of more time to manifest it (got to make contact, etc.) and the power points to expend on said manifestation. In general, I can't see this being worth it.

In combat, it's not - but stones are generally for utility use anyway. For instance, Aura Alteration is not something you're likely to need in your head all the time, but having it in stone form and having access to this option opens up new strategies for using it. Similarly, Psychometry is unlikely to see regular use for many psions, but you can solve a lot of murders just by augmenting it high enough, and this method lets you do that.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I think we all agree Erudite was not handled well.
This was seen as a way to bypass the weakness of thr 11 per day at twenty ruling.

But this could be used with any class like factotum or warblade