Tales of Maj'Eyal

[Cogwheel]

Tales of Maj'Eyal, linked here (http://te4.org/download) and available for Windows, Mac and Linux, is a game you should be playing.

...What, you want more? Goodness, people are so picky these days. Well, alright, then.

Tales of Maj'Eyal 4, formerly Tales of Middle Earth before it was more or less reworked from the ground up, is a roguelike RPG on the T-Engine. Those of you who don't know what a roguelike is, read on. If roguelikes scare you, keep reading anyway. This game caters to not scaring you off. Promise.

The rest of the post will be organised into sections depending on what you're looking for.

A term that gets slapped onto every other game nowadays. All jokes aside, the term stems from resembling the original of the genre, Rogue. Which is a bit silly, since it's like calling every FPS a Doomlike. The gist of it is this.

It's an RPG - usually, we're seeing some variations lately - with a great deal of complexity and depth, a significant amount of random generation in content, and high difficulty, featuring permadeath. As in, if you die, that's it. Boom, your character's gone.

I know, that sounds terrible. You'll get used to it, though! Especially with this game, for reasons I'll outline later. Apart from that, though, you'll soon learn to (after a few minutes of frothing outrage at your monitor) use it as an excuse to try the next thing. Most roguelikes - looking at you, Nethack and ADOM - are very archaic in design, but this is not particularly the case here.

As I see it, the chief appeals are the challenge, making you think at all times, and the sheer amount of stuff in the game. I wouldn't recommend the genre to everyone, but ToME is one of about two exceptions.


Already know the genre? Here's what makes it different, and what it has to offer. Firstly, ToME is rather more... civilised, though I suppose that's a harsh term. Coherent, fairly simple UI, no mechanics or quests that require a wiki to figure out (barring unlocks, anyway), not generally all that arbitrary, and it has difficulty settings if you like.

Lives are the second thing that sets it apart. In adventurer mode, you start with... what, four lives? Then you gain up to about eight as you level. Aside from two items in the game that give one-time revives. Should you die, you're then taken to a separate area, where you can buff back up, rest, and either go back, or be placed outside the zone where you die, or just quit. Nothing wrong with using this, though. The game is designed around it. However, if you want a challenge, there's Roguelike, where you only have one life.

Third, you have unlocks. There are countless classes, a few races, and some special trees (plus one feature that carries over between all your future games) that can be unlocked. Even when you don't win, you probably made some progress, and it's an excuse to keep trying new things. Unless you just want me to tell you how to cheat out an unlock. I can do that too.

Fourth, random monsters. Rares and uniques, specifically. Basically, you get occasional monsters that are the same thing with better stats, and class skills. Sometimes from more than one class. Outside of dungeon bosses, these are some of the more significant challenges. That, or it's a grey mold with rogue levels, and you just laugh and obliterate it.

Fifth, a map and fixed dungeons. ToME is bigger than most roguelikes, perhaps the biggest around. There's an overworld - two of them, really - with a few events, and a great number of dungeons (many of them optional) as well as towns. Dungeons vary in content, but have a fixed length (in terms of numbers of floor) and range of enemies, as well as a boss at the end. That said, there's still room for differences, and many early to midgame dungeons now have two significantly different variations that can come up. Oh, there are also quests. So there's that.

Sixth, class design. Classes in ToME are really distinct, with all manner of different abilities, and there's plenty of room for differing builds (though some builds and classes will be better than others) and experimentation. Beyond that, the classes are just very unusual in what you can do. Do you want to split the timeline in three, play in each, then continue in your favourite one of them? Retcon an enemy out of existence? Put an opponent to sleep, then invade their dreams? Turn yourself into lightning for a quick speed boost? You can do all that and more.

Seventh, items. There are basically no consumables here. Items, too, are mostly randomised outside of artifacts (which are usually boss drops). Think Diablo, in that sense. You also have a number of inscriptions, which are rechargeable effects that you can use. Healing, regeneration, shields, curing status effects, phase door, heat beam, speed boost and the like all fall under this, and you'll learn to love these inscriptions.

Eighth, it has online capabilities. This mostly means that you can chat on the channel, events sometimes happen, and there's another thing shown below.

Ninth, it's prettier than most. Graphics are pretty fancy by roguelike standards, but can be made ASCII if you prefer. It also brings its own soundtrack, which I am... not equipped to judge, having heard it in its entirety enough times to turn it off by now.

Tenth and last, for the sake of full disclosure: The game's free, but you will sometimes be asked if you want to donate. This will probably bother some people. For what it's worth, donating nets you a class, the option to turn permadeath off, a special tile for your character if you like, and the ability to pass items between your characters if you like, with strings attached. It's kind of nice, though as a donator, I rarely use the features it got me, so it's hardly essential.


Did I miss anything? Probably, but this is getting really long.



Explore the map at first. Just so you know where everything is.

The alchemist class is good. No, I mean really so good. Don't forget you can switch control to the golem (click the paper doll for it near the top of the screen) and level it from there, though!

My recommended dungeon order for the tier 1 dungeons - and you want to do them all for loot and XP purposes - is Trollmire/Norgos' Lair (whichever order)->Heart of the Gloom->Ruins of Kor'Pul->Scintillating Caves/Rhaloren Camp (again, both terrible, pick your own order). If you're a Shalore or something and start in one of the last two dungeons, leave.

The Derth arena is only available until you hit level 12. Do it before, it's really useful for the 2 generic talent points.

For very easy unlocks, keep an arcane artifact (yellow or orange text, not pink) and give it to the apprentice mage outside Derth. Also, explore around in the fields north of Last Hope till an event comes up (level 8+ recommended).

Use the starting Archmage quest to practice Phase Door. Or die a bunch. It's hard if you don't have it down.

Having trouble with The Shade in Ruins of Kor'Pul? Dig through to it with a pickaxe!




...That should be it. Hopefully at least someone will pick this game up. I'll answer all questions as quickly as I'm able to. I've beaten the game a couple times, so feel free to ask for build tips, though I hardly know every class. If you got this far, thanks for reading, and have fun facing off against the RNG!

[Antonok]

Well what the hell. I'm open to try any game. No gurantees on if I'll play it long/my comp will play it though.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I've won twice, although I was using the most OP classes to beat it. Summoners are pretty OP since they can just spam meat shields in front of them. Oozamancers never have to worry about equilibrium thanks to mucus. I was an absolute tank that could spam my low cooldown attacks.

[Cogwheel]

Well what the hell. I'm open to try any game. No gurantees on if I'll play it long/my comp will play it though.

Good luck! If it runs League, it'll run ToME. The lag is, sadly, normal. It's not a very optimised game.


I've won twice, although I was using the most OP classes to beat it. Summoners are pretty OP since they can just spam meat shields in front of them. Oozamancers never have to worry about equilibrium thanks to mucus. I was an absolute tank that could spam my low cooldown attacks.

Oozemancers are one of the most hilariously broken classes I've seen, and still easily rank in the top 3. Summoners... there are better classes, but especially as Yeeks, they're very good. I never finished a game as one, though. It's the only class in the game that can bore me.

[Wookieetank]

Played a few times, die horribly quickly, and decided I should go try to beat dredmor for the first time ever (stil working on that one ><)

[Cogwheel]

Played a few times, die horribly quickly, and decided I should go try to beat dredmor for the first time ever (stil working on that one ><)

Good luck! If you want advice, though, I'd be happy to give some. Bumpy starts are pretty typical.

[Rolaran]

Just got into this game. Roguelikes have always been a pet genre for me (I'm pretty sure that in high school I lost more hours to Nethack than to some of my actual classes), and this one raises the bar. Way more user friendly than I'm used to seeing in a classic roguelike, while being no less murderous. There's also a fairly in-depth (if a little generic) plot. And, I like the emphasis on having a handful of cooldown abilities rather than a vast array of consumables; this makes the character development more about designing a viable tactical build, and less about amassing enough healing/buffing potions to drink your way through the tough fights.

Some advice (spoilers avoided):

Another hilariously powerful class (that needs to be unlocked, but it's one of the more straightforward unlocks to do) is the Cursed. The fluff: a murderer so supernaturally full of hatred that it spills out like an aura, driving people mad. The crunch: layer an aura or three, then run around the map crushing your foes, while foes in the to-be-crushed category get a mountain of debuffs. For extra OP, be sure to take the Rampage skill tree: the effects of this are best described as "Become the Incredible Hulk, if the Hulk were also the Flash."

Oh, and the opening dungeon for dwarves gives you an NPC companion. When you notice that things he kills don't grant you XP, you may be tempted to arrange for an "accident" (or maybe that's just old Dwarf Fortress instincts kicking in). This is not recommended. You'll be getting additional XP as you go that more than compensates, and the boss of that dungeon hits like a truck- most classes will have a far easier time with him to hide behind.

[Cogwheel]

There's also a fairly in-depth (if a little generic) plot.

I knew I forgot something!

...Guess that says a thing or two about the plot, huh.


handful of cooldown abilities

You have very large hands.


"Become the Incredible Hulk, if the Hulk were also the Flash."

ANGERFLASH is amazing. Probably not as broken as alchemists, though? Solipsists, Alchemists and Oozemancers are likely the top three.


Dwarves

Very much this. Useful man to have around.

Relatedly, the XP penalties aren't quite as bad as they look. You lose out on a couple levels, and only Cornac and Yeek will hit the level cap before the final boss without some tricks, but you won't actually be 20% behind on levels for a 20% XP penalty, usually. Somehow. Now, if you start looking at races with 40% XP penalties, then it gets a bit nasty.

[Wookieetank]

Good luck! If you want advice, though, I'd be happy to give some. Bumpy starts are pretty typical.

Yup yup. Floor 2 in Dredmor used to be terrifying, now its floor 8 and 9. Depending on free time will try to fire this up again soon(tm).

[ObadiahtheSlim]

You'll be getting additional XP as you go that more than compensates, and the boss of that dungeon hits like a truck- most classes will have a far easier time with him to hide behind.
How it works is you get a level up every time you use the stairs if you hadn't already gotten a level. It's nigh impossible to get enough XP from enemy kills so don't sweat it. Just take the free levels.

[Cogwheel]

How it works is you get a level up every time you use the stairs if you hadn't already gotten a level. It's nigh impossible to get enough XP from enemy kills so don't sweat it. Just take the free levels.

Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, there's this too.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

While dwarves do get a nice bonus dungeon, I kind of prefer Thalore for my physical or mental power classes. Sure they have a pretty harsh XP penalty, but that generic tree is too nice. The damage/resistance bonus from the first one is an early game life saver and the third makes the scary orc corruptors less scary.

[Cogwheel]

While dwarves do get a nice bonus dungeon, I kind of prefer Thalore for my physical or mental power classes. Sure they have a pretty harsh XP penalty, but that generic tree is too nice. The damage/resistance bonus from the first one is an early game life saver and the third makes the scary orc corruptors less scary.

Dwarves do get a crazy huge save bonus, though.

That said, I honestly end up playing Cornac, Higher or Yeek most of the time. Never did touch Shalore. That said, I dislike elves in all things, which is part of the reason.

Oh, plenty of undead, too. Ghoul Sun Paladin is good times.

[Wookieetank]

Dwarves do get a crazy huge save bonus, though.

That said, I honestly end up playing Cornac, Higher or Yeek most of the time. Never did touch Shalore. That said, I dislike pointy eared tree hugging hippies of questionable parentage born out of wedlock in all things, which is part of the reason.

Oh, plenty of undead, too. Ghoul Sun Paladin is good times.

Get your terms straight! :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Cogwheel]

Get your terms straight! :smallwink::smalltongue:

I was trying to be nice to the people here who like them.


I actually would like to try S/Thalore eventually. Their racial abilities intrigue me. Just completed a Necromancer run, though, so I won't be booting it up again for a short while.

[Knaight]

It's downloading now on my end. I might be back later with commentary.

[Cogwheel]

It's downloading now on my end. I might be back later with commentary.

Looking forward to it! You'll find it less hateful than ADOM, though, so it might be too easy for you?

[Knaight]

Looking forward to it! You'll find it less hateful than ADOM, though, so it might be too easy for you?

I couldn't stand ADOM (mostly due to the obtuseness), and am finding this works better. Even if there are some oddities that have popped up regarding functionality.

It certainly has the roguelike feel - I'm using that mode, and have found out a few things the hard way. Such as how bad of an idea it actually is to open doors that are stuck.

[Cogwheel]

I couldn't stand ADOM (mostly due to the obtuseness), and am finding this works better. Even if there are some oddities that have popped up regarding functionality.

It certainly has the roguelike feel - I'm using that mode, and have found out a few things the hard way. Such as how bad of an idea it actually is to open doors that are stuck.

Oh, yes. Those are basically vaults.

Do bear in mind that roguelike mode is not what the game is actually balanced for. I thought I remembered you being really big on ADOM, though... sorry, dodgy memory.

[Rolaran]

Yeah. Pretty much any time the game stops you and asks if you're sure you want to open that door, you could replace the text with "How lucky and/or reckless are you feeling right now?" I recently lost a promising alchemist when one of those contained a full-sized fire wyrm. Since my main source of damage at that point was incendiary gem bombs, the fight was... one-sided.

For what it's worth, there's no shame in leaving those for later. You don't lose anything for leaving them shut and coming back with a few more levels- in fact...

...the way the game treats loot, vaults are one of the few places where clearing the whole level isn't necessary for maximum loot. Normally when you leave a dungeon floor, any loot that's on the ground gets "cleaned up" and disappears, so clearing an entire floor before moving on or back results in the most loot (at slightly greater risk). But vaults are exempt, so you don't miss out on treasure by leaving a vault shut, or only completing half of it. Also, you can drop stuff in a vault for safe keeping, if you're having encumbrance issues.

[Knaight]

Yeah. Pretty much any time the game stops you and asks if you're sure you want to open that door, you could replace the text with "How lucky and/or reckless are you feeling right now?" I recently lost a promising alchemist when one of those contained a full-sized fire wyrm. Since my main source of damage at that point was incendiary gem bombs, the fight was... one-sided.


I got a packed grid of giants. As in, easily 40, all of which were higher level than I was, including some a cut above the rest of the giants in the area, along with a boss for good measure. It...ended poorly for my dwarf, though I nearly escaped with the rod of recall. Had I fired it off a turn earlier, I probably could have gotten out of there. Now I know.

[Cogwheel]

I got a packed grid of giants. As in, easily 40, all of which were higher level than I was, including some a cut above the rest of the giants in the area, along with a boss for good measure. It...ended poorly for my dwarf, though I nearly escaped with the rod of recall. Had I fired it off a turn earlier, I probably could have gotten out of there. Now I know.

1: This is literally the worst pre-Dreadfell vault. I know the one.

2: Was it Daikara? Daikara is an awful place. I've taken to calling it Daikatana Mountain for a reason.

[Knaight]

1: This is literally the worst pre-Dreadfell vault. I know the one.

2: Was it Daikara? Daikara is an awful place. I've taken to calling it Daikatana Mountain for a reason.

Yup. I actually like Daikara, but then, I was running some sort of oddball Dwarfish Berserker with a defensive focus, along with a nice little attack to blind everyone in an area, so things worked out well. Even if I was a good six levels short of the giants.

[Eldaran]

I love this game so much, been playing it for years. The Paradox Mage is my favorite class in any game ever made, I just adore the way they work.

Has anyone completed the game on Nightmare (or even Insanity) difficulty? I did one complete run on nightmare, but it was literally terrifying near the end because every fight was so hard. Also played a lot of Infinite Dungeon, my best there is in the 60s somewhere.

[Cogwheel]

Yup. I actually like Daikara, but then, I was running some sort of oddball Dwarfish Berserker with a defensive focus, along with a nice little attack to blind everyone in an area, so things worked out well. Even if I was a good six levels short of the giants.

Did you do all the T1 stuff/did you visit the slaver compound and assassin tunnels?

For that matter, did you clear out everything else for T2, or rush Daikara?


I love this game so much, been playing it for years. The Paradox Mage is my favorite class in any game ever made, I just adore the way they work.

Same! I dearly wish they were more effective for the effort they required, though.


Has anyone completed the game on Nightmare (or even Insanity) difficulty? I did one complete run on nightmare, but it was literally terrifying near the end because every fight was so hard. Also played a lot of Infinite Dungeon, my best there is in the 60s somewhere.

N... no. Thirteen normal runs, but nothing like that. Well done.

[nooblade]

Yes this game interests me, but I fail at the strategy of it, especially against random enemies who have class abilities and against end.

I think in typical roguelikes the idea is something like "you need !s of cure critical wounds before confusion and bleeding attacks arrive, you need resist paralysis before carrion crawlers set in" and you slowly progress to superpower loot. That was my experience with Angband and ADoM anyway. One other point that sets ToME apart is that there are only one or two consumables in the whole game and the rest are runes or infusions or something. It's frustrating when I want this or that ability because I think it would make the next part easier but it isn't available in towns or dropped. Then sometimes I'll find something funny like the Helm of Garkul selling for 16 gold in Zigur and breeze through several next parts of the game.

So anyway, with that and random class powered enemies, my sense of what I need by a particular point is off too. I suspect at higher difficulties you have to be ready for everything at once? That might alleviate my main disinterest with this game--lots of it is autoexplore nonchallenge until you reach a point like Daikara or DF where it's a struggle to survive.

One thing that isn't set apart from other roguelikes however--digging can be overpowered if you use it correctly. In most of the environments you can make your own tunnels and fight large groups of monsters one at a time in them. Curve the tunnels around if you don't want nonadjacent dragons and things to use ranged attacks.

[Cogwheel]

Yes this game interests me, but I fail at the strategy of it, especially against random enemies who have class abilities and against end.

I think in typical roguelikes the idea is something like "you need !s of cure critical wounds before confusion and bleeding attacks arrive, you need resist paralysis before carrion crawlers set in" and you slowly progress to superpower loot. That was my experience with Angband and ADoM anyway. One other point that sets ToME apart is that there are only one or two consumables in the whole game and the rest are runes or infusions or something. It's frustrating when I want this or that ability because I think it would make the next part easier but it isn't available in towns or dropped. Then sometimes I'll find something funny like the Helm of Garkul selling for 16 gold in Zigur and breeze through several next parts of the game.

So anyway, with that and random class powered enemies, my sense of what I need by a particular point is off too. I suspect at higher difficulties you have to be ready for everything at once? That might alleviate my main disinterest with this game--lots of it is autoexplore nonchallenge until you reach a point like Daikara or DF where it's a struggle to survive.

One thing that isn't set apart from other roguelikes however--digging can be overpowered if you use it correctly. In most of the environments you can make your own tunnels and fight large groups of monsters one at a time in them. Curve the tunnels around if you don't want nonadjacent dragons and things to use ranged attacks.

Digging can indeed be very nice. Not that I use it more than... once in the game? Anyway, it's loot-dependent somewhat, but there are no specific things you need. I actually appreciate not having a Nethack-esque checklist of "Do you have X? If not, you already lost, you just don't know it yet" to deal with. I can see how it would be disorienting, though.

Essentially, it comes down to tactics. Now, lightning resist is helpful for Daikara, blight resist for dealing with corruptors and so forth, naturally, but I never really gear up for a specific place. At most, I prepare as much as "I should have an alternative damage type by this point". Or see invisible before Dreadfell, more to the point.

I don't know about higher difficulties, but later in the game, at least, you mostly want a motley assortment of whatever elemental resistances you picked up, some see invisible (unless you're an alchemist), decent defenses all around, and so forth. Naturally, you will want ways to clear status effects and a good bit of confusion/stun resist, as those two status effects are the two biggest killers.

Really, though, it's a game of tactics. I've had bad loot runs, and in all but the worst cases, you can make do with what you get. Well, barring some very loot-dependent classes, anyway (such as the early game Brawler, somewhat ironically).

[factotum]

Just got it downloaded and ran into an immediate problem--won't display the mouse cursor. Had to switch it off and use the system cursor instead. Bit of a worry, hope that's the only bug I run into!

[Cogwheel]

Just got it downloaded and ran into an immediate problem--won't display the mouse cursor. Had to switch it off and use the system cursor instead. Bit of a worry, hope that's the only bug I run into!

Hmm, that's strange. Sometimes it doesn't register key presses, but tabbing out and back in fixes that. Don't know what to tell you, sorry.

[Rolaran]

Exciting news for fans of Steam: This just got Greenlit. :smallsmile:

[Cogwheel]

Exciting news for fans of Steam: This just got Greenlit. :smallsmile:

Oh, nice! Never thought they'd make it, after all this time.

If nothing else, it's easier to donate now. Less cumbersome, which would be nice, had I not already done so. And... Steam Workshop? I can hope.

[Knaight]

Did you do all the T1 stuff/did you visit the slaver compound and assassin tunnels?

For that matter, did you clear out everything else for T2, or rush Daikara?


I hit Daikara early - level 8. Other than the vault, it was easy enough to handle.

[Cogwheel]

I hit Daikara early - level 8. Other than the vault, it was easy enough to handle.

...

You, sir, are the most terrifying madman I have witnessed all week.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Some builds will find it easier than others.

[Mewtarthio]

So long as you don't get the volcano version, at least. I don't think anyone has an easy time of the volcano version.

[BladeofObliviom]

Huh. Tried it out, and eventually got through Trollmire after a few deaths (even the Bonus Boss). Then I usually go outside and proceed to get ambushed by adventurers who are each about twice my level.

Ouchie. Plus I'm a masochist who's playing on Roguelike mode, so there's that.

[Cogwheel]

So long as you don't get the volcano version, at least. I don't think anyone has an easy time of the volcano version.

I have literally never seen this version. I really want to! I'm starting to forget Daikara has an alternative version, though. Same for Rhaloren Camp.


Huh. Tried it out, and eventually got through Trollmire after a few deaths (even the Bonus Boss). Then I usually go outside and proceed to get ambushed by adventurers who are each about twice my level.

Ouchie. Plus I'm a masochist who's playing on Roguelike mode, so there's that.

Easier Roguelike might be a good compromise while you learn?

Depending on when their power spikes early on and what tricks they have, some classes can take the bonus boss on immediately. For others, I would advise waiting until after another dungeon or two.

[BladeofObliviom]

Easier Roguelike might be a good compromise while you learn?

Depending on when their power spikes early on and what tricks they have, some classes can take the bonus boss on immediately. For others, I would advise waiting until after another dungeon or two.

Actually, I'm doing okay as it turns out. Just had really bad luck on the first couple runs where I finished Trollmire and had adventurers nearby. In the "Very Old Halfling Ruins" right now, and mostly slaughtering my way through without too much trouble.

[Cogwheel]

Actually, I'm doing okay as it turns out. Just had really bad luck on the first couple runs where I finished Trollmire and had adventurers nearby.

Adventurers can contain casters. As such, they never really stop being risky. At first, yeah, avoid. Avoid hard.


In the "Very Old Halfling Ruins" right now, and mostly slaughtering my way through without too much trouble.

Ahahahaha Subject Z time.

Godspeed.


(For real though I would not recommend that place until after finishing T2. Be very careful with the boss if you're squishy.)

[TaRix]

I'm just terrible at this one, even though I've actually cleared the adventure mode once. (Think it was with a rampaging cursed wood-elf) I can never get the builds quite right. Even if the points are in the right places, they're not there at the right time. Or I've got the wrong rune/infusions for the situation. Or I pick a fight with the wrong monster.

I'll probably take another stab at it again later, kinda burned myself out after finally unlocking the class the rogue unlocks (with one extra-hard hit or somesuch)

Then I tried the infinite dungeon with a temporal warden a few times and then settled for a lowly arena ranking.

My inner munchkin just doesn't measure up.

[BladeofObliviom]

Adventurers can contain casters. As such, they never really stop being risky. At first, yeah, avoid. Avoid hard.

Ahahahaha Subject Z time.

Godspeed.

(For real though I would not recommend that place until after finishing T2. Be very careful with the boss if you're squishy.)

Heh, I'd already killed the guy by the time I read this post, in spite of being only level 11.

Didn't manage to save the Yeek though. :smallfrown:

(And then I got killed by more adventurers anyway, so it all evens out. :smalltongue:)

[Pseudo_Nym]

I remember this game! Never managed to beat it, and I've beaten both ADOM and Nethack. It just didn't seem... fair, to me, not like most roguelikes. Maybe it's because of my fondness for the squishier types, but it felt like you could die so suddenly, without warning. ADOM and Nethack were fair, if incredibly sadistic. Every one of my countless deaths taught me something. Except for the one with the poison-spiked pit trap. ToME, all I remember learning is "never walk around corners, there might be a monster with class levels." But it's been a while; maybe I'll give it another go.

Furthest I ever got was with a Corruptor. Very straightforward class, that. But a lot tougher than the Archmage or Necromancer, and with a low cooldown spell that drains life from enemies to heal. Made it past Dreadfell, roguelike mode. Actually got far enough to max a stat, which I didn't know could happen. Always kinda resented that they were the class I was best with, since they're so unashamedly Evil.

[nooblade]

My inner munchkin just doesn't measure up.

Yeah, that's the feeling I get too.

I was starting to play this, but then found that I actually wanted to play Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King instead. Something about the quasi D&D 3.0 rules just feels right. I wish the developer would quit working on other stuff and finish it.. No updates since I'd played it last year. But it's still fun.

[BladeofObliviom]

I remember this game! Never managed to beat it, and I've beaten both ADOM and Nethack. It just didn't seem... fair, to me, not like most roguelikes. Maybe it's because of my fondness for the squishier types, but it felt like you could die so suddenly, without warning. ADOM and Nethack were fair, if incredibly sadistic. Every one of my countless deaths taught me something. Except for the one with the poison-spiked pit trap. ToME, all I remember learning is "never walk around corners, there might be a monster with class levels." But it's been a while; maybe I'll give it another go.

You know, what's funny is that I don't find the actual dungeons to be all that hard as long as you're very careful and don't aggro too many monsters at once (or get blindsided by a boss or caster that you didn't see before).

Those random adventurers spawning all over the overworld, though? They're always stronger than you are individually and come in packs. :smalleek:

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Just have escape options. As long as you have escape options you can usually survive to fight another time. Even when you get ambushed on the overworld, a movement infusion is usually enough to get away from even the worst groups.

[Cogwheel]

You know, what's funny is that I don't find the actual dungeons to be all that hard as long as you're very careful and don't aggro too many monsters at once (or get blindsided by a boss or caster that you didn't see before).

Those random adventurers spawning all over the overworld, though? They're always stronger than you are individually and come in packs. :smalleek:

You learn to be very careful. Though in fairness, you can safely 1~2-shot them by midgame or so. They don't scale quite as hard as you do, because equipment.


I remember this game! Never managed to beat it, and I've beaten both ADOM and Nethack. It just didn't seem... fair, to me, not like most roguelikes. Maybe it's because of my fondness for the squishier types, but it felt like you could die so suddenly, without warning. ADOM and Nethack were fair, if incredibly sadistic. Every one of my countless deaths taught me something. Except for the one with the poison-spiked pit trap. ToME, all I remember learning is "never walk around corners, there might be a monster with class levels." But it's been a while; maybe I'll give it another go.

Build Constitution more? I don't know, I would say ADOM and Nethack are less fair, if anything. I get what you mean with random rares, and used to feel that way, but it stopped happening? I'm not sure why. Could be constitution, or more caution, or learning to keep defensive measures around and always resting up before moving on.


Furthest I ever got was with a Corruptor. Very straightforward class, that. But a lot tougher than the Archmage or Necromancer, and with a low cooldown spell that drains life from enemies to heal. Made it past Dreadfell, roguelike mode. Actually got far enough to max a stat, which I didn't know could happen. Always kinda resented that they were the class I was best with, since they're so unashamedly Evil.

Archmages and necromancers are actually much tougher. Corruptors get more HP and the drain, but mages get way more escapes. Phase Door and Teleport are huge. Distortion Shield isn't half bad, and archmages also have Time Shield, a heal, and the entire Aegis tree, so it gets kind of ludicrous.

I think you mean comically evil, by the way. I always found it hilarious, though they don't quite go as far as Necromancers, what with the spell that summons bunnies, taunts everything to attack them, and gathers their souls.


Heh, I'd already killed the guy by the time I read this post, in spite of being only level 11.

Didn't manage to save the Yeek though. :smallfrown:

(And then I got killed by more adventurers anyway, so it all evens out. :smalltongue:)

Really. Maybe he's different at low levels? I just know he can randomly teleport in and hit you six times, which is... interesting, as a squishy character. As for saving the yeek, that will...

Unlock the Yeek race if you save it as anything but a halfling, and give that character confusion resist/mental save. Saving the Wayist as a Yeek yourself will unlock a new class.


I'm just terrible at this one, even though I've actually cleared the adventure mode once. (Think it was with a rampaging cursed wood-elf) I can never get the builds quite right. Even if the points are in the right places, they're not there at the right time. Or I've got the wrong rune/infusions for the situation. Or I pick a fight with the wrong monster.

Practice is good for this stuff. If you want build advice, I can help with that on a good few classes. That said, I wing it somewhat myself and tend to make a few daft mistakes - take my winning Necromancer run, for instance, no Thick Skin or Impending Doom, and I liched out without runes on hand - but you can generally get away with it.


I'll probably take another stab at it again later, kinda burned myself out after finally unlocking the class the rogue unlocks (with one extra-hard hit or somesuch)

600 damage. Marauders are such a pain to unlock, and so bad. The good news is that it's easier if you build a strength rogue, crit-shadowstrike someone by level 8 or so with a giant two-hander, and then abandon your abomination of a rogue.


Then I tried the infinite dungeon with a temporal warden a few times and then settled for a lowly arena ranking.

My inner munchkin just doesn't measure up.

Ah, temporal warden. Never liked them, myself. You're either a mediocre dual-wielder, or a hyper-effective archer, but archers are dull as dishwater.

Arena is fun, though! I just find it a bit too binary. Either your class clicks with the mode, or it has no chance at all.


Just have escape options. As long as you have escape options you can usually survive to fight another time. Even when you get ambushed on the overworld, a movement infusion is usually enough to get away from even the worst groups.


Very true. Cannot overstate the power of defensive and movement abilities. Mind you, one can make up for the other up to a point (have I mentioned that ghoul sun paladins are hilarious?).

[TaRix]

Yes, archmages get plenty. That's almost my problem with them--I get a little bit of a tree or two too many and get watered down to where they get into too much danger, and eventually one of the escape methods goes sour.

[Cogwheel]

Yes, archmages get plenty. That's almost my problem with them--I get a little bit of a tree or two too many and get watered down to where they get into too much danger, and eventually one of the escape methods goes sour.

Handy guide: Arcane Reconstruction, Phase Door, Teleport and Distortion Shield are good things to 5 eventually, less urgently for Teleport since it's less 'get me here, specifically' and more 'anywhere but here' in application. Shielding/Arcane Shield/Aegis are lovely, but less urgent. Past that, you just want Time Shield for the most part, on the class talent side. And shielding runes, plus maybe a healing infusion besides AR if you like?

Obviously if you're a generalist or arcane/aether archmage, Disruption Shield is hilarious, but I won't pretend it's core on everyone.

[Pseudo_Nym]

With the Corruptor, actually, Constitution was my highest stat. Magic followed. And I still felt like my deaths were too sudden, without warning. I didn't need escape options - I could already survive just about anything, if I lived long enough actually see it. Every so often I wouldn't. So I'd die, and I'd not know what to do differently next time.

But that was a year or three ago, and my memory's not perfect. I won't complain further without giving it another chance.

[Cogwheel]

With the Corruptor, actually, Constitution was my highest stat. Magic followed. And I still felt like my deaths were too sudden, without warning. I didn't need escape options - I could already survive just about anything, if I lived long enough actually see it. Every so often I wouldn't. So I'd die, and I'd not know what to do differently next time.

But that was a year or three ago, and my memory's not perfect. I won't complain further without giving it another chance.

Oh, the game's changed a lot since, so that's probably it. Most pertinently, rares have to respect their level and general power somewhat with skills. You can't, say, have a random ghoul with 36 ranks in Skullcracker.

[Rolaran]

Speaking of changes to the game, I just found the beta notes (http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?p=162768#p162768) for the next patch of the game (not live yet, didn't see a release date). Archers and Brawlers get some nice buffs, lots of the visual effects are getting improvements, but one line in particular stands out as my new favorite patch note:
Yeeks can not dominate themselves.

[BladeofObliviom]

Damn. Tried out the Summoner. It wasn't working out too well until I figured out that Meditate wasn't just halving my damage, but also that of the summons. Suddenly things started going a lot better, until I got ganked by a random Orc Pyromancer in the Old Forest.

[Cogwheel]

Damn. Tried out the Summoner. It wasn't working out too well until I figured out that Meditate wasn't just halving my damage, but also that of the summons. Suddenly things started going a lot better, until I got ganked by a random Orc Pyromancer in the Old Forest.

...That is really unlucky. I mean, I once got a rare 35-ish Uruivellas in the Old Forest, so obviously sometimes it can do dumb things, but still.

Also yes, Summoners are fairly effective once you figure them out. Dull, but effective.


Speaking of changes to the game, I just found the beta notes (http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?p=162768#p162768) for the next patch of the game (not live yet, didn't see a release date). Archers and Brawlers get some nice buffs, lots of the visual effects are getting improvements, but one line in particular stands out as my new favorite patch note:


Never thought the day would come! This is quite nice, and I'm fond of the performance improvements, too.

The ghoul and alchemist changes promise to be hilarious. Thanks for sharing.

[Ailurus]

played this way too much a few years back when it was still LotR themed (ToME 2 I believe). Never did manage to beat it, but managed to get a few characters down to about level 80 or so of the final dungeon. Liking a lot of the changes, especially the skill trees. And the mouse interface doesn't hurt either.

Starting out with a Higher Bulwark, and its going OK. Or was until Daikara (got there at level 12) where I happened across an area that opened up, then I got frozen in place by something and then it was SO MUCH LIGHTNING. Managed to survive and fall back (thanks to the racial healing ability), but now I'm afraid to poke my head around corners there anymore.

[Cogwheel]

played this way too much a few years back when it was still LotR themed (ToME 2 I believe). Never did manage to beat it, but managed to get a few characters down to about level 80 or so of the final dungeon. Liking a lot of the changes, especially the skill trees. And the mouse interface doesn't hurt either.

Starting out with a Higher Bulwark, and its going OK. Or was until Daikara (got there at level 12) where I happened across an area that opened up, then I got frozen in place by something and then it was SO MUCH LIGHTNING. Managed to survive and fall back (thanks to the racial healing ability), but now I'm afraid to poke my head around corners there anymore.

Eesh, yes. Level 12 is much too early (then again, I appear to be more conservative than others in the thread). Daikara is also where Bulwarks start to suffer, since they can be frozen regularly, meet large amounts of ranged enemies, and the whole 'impervious to physical attacks' thing starts to mean waaay less.

Higher might also not be the best pick for that race? I'll be honest, though, I never got very far with Bulwarks.

Edit: That and Daikara is a Bad Place in general. Protip, do not enter the portal on area 3 of it unless you hate yourself/are coming back a while later.

[Todasmile]

Eesh, yes. Level 12 is much too early (then again, I appear to be more conservative than others in the thread). Daikara is also where Bulwarks start to suffer, since they can be frozen regularly, meet large amounts of ranged enemies, and the whole 'impervious to physical attacks' thing starts to mean waaay less.

Higher might also not be the best pick for that race? I'll be honest, though, I never got very far with Bulwarks.

Edit: That and Daikara is a Bad Place in general. Protip, do not enter the portal on area 3 of it unless you hate yourself/are coming back a while later.

Just don't enter Daikara, period. Finish all the dungeons you can.

Then quit.

[Cogwheel]

Just don't enter Daikara, period. Finish all the dungeons you can.

Then quit.

These are professional tips for expert tomers. Heed them well.

[Worira]

Personally I'd say enter Daikara but not... uh... the other one. Don't go to whatever that one is. With the darkness and the wizards and the lightnings.

[Cogwheel]

Personally I'd say enter Daikara but not... uh... the other one. Don't go to whatever that one is. With the darkness and the wizards and the lightnings.

Tempest Peak.

Similarly, when you're asked if you want to enter a tunnel at about level 20, the answer is no.

[Todasmile]

Just had a game as a Cursed. It was going great, I was beginning to work up to that point where Cursed are really strong, and stuff was working out.

Found a TIER FOUR randart Battleaxe in the Underground Tunnels.

Didn't even get to use it before the Assassin Lord killed me.

I would have killed him in one hit.

[Cogwheel]

Just had a game as a Cursed. It was going great, I was beginning to work up to that point where Cursed are really strong, and stuff was working out.

Found a TIER FOUR randart Battleaxe in the Underground Tunnels.

Didn't even get to use it before the Assassin Lord killed me.

I would have killed him in one hit.

...Oh dear. That's a shame. Tunnel/sandworm lair/maze chests are a bit crazy, though. I'm not sure what situation you'd be in where you find an axe in a chest and he immediately kills you, but anyway.

What was your build? I may or may not be able to suggest a few tweaks.

[Todasmile]

...Oh dear. That's a shame. Tunnel/sandworm lair/maze chests are a bit crazy, though. I'm not sure what situation you'd be in where you find an axe in a chest and he immediately kills you, but anyway.

What was your build? I may or may not be able to suggest a few tweaks.

I just didn't have enough strength to wield it. I think I was 33 and it needed 35?

I went something like:

5/5/0/0 in Slaughter
1/0/0/0 in Endless Hunt
1/0/0/0/ in Strife
1/1/0/0 in Gloom
1/0/0/0 in Rampage

For Generics, I was

2/3/1/0 in Cursed Form
1/1/0/0 in that one cursing one for items
And I had a point in Tough Skin, 3 in Armor Training, 2 in Accuracy, 1 or 2 in Weapons mastery.

I typically focus Willpower and pump up Gloom and Fear on my Cursed. This time I was trying something a little different. Mainly did 1/1/1 Strength/Will/Constitution, with a few bursts of Willpower for unlocking Glooms or something.

[Rolaran]

1/0/0/0 in Rampage
Well there's yer prablem.

In all seriousness, given how squirrely Rampage based "Incredible HulkFlash" builds can get, I'm actually legitimately impressed with someone intentionally trying to take the class in a different, less cheesy direction. Kudos.

...Having said that, the Generic tree that curses items? Inhales a lot of points before it becomes useful. In my experience, taking it makes the class quite a bit tougher- it has its rewards, but greatly increases the micromanagement required to get anything out of it. Taking it normally offsets the goofiness that is Rampage. If you take it and eschew Rampage, you're gonna have a bad time.

(That, and the Antimagic trees are crazy good for Cursed, but also eats up a lot of points. Since you don't get enough Gen points to get the best of both, I'd normally recommend leaving Curses alone entirely to fill Antimagic abilities faster.)

[Cogwheel]

Well there's yer prablem.

In all seriousness, given how squirrely Rampage based "Incredible HulkFlash" builds can get, I'm actually legitimately impressed with someone intentionally trying to take the class in a different, less cheesy direction. Kudos.

...Having said that, the Generic tree that curses items? Inhales a lot of points before it becomes useful. In my experience, taking it makes the class quite a bit tougher- it has its rewards, but greatly increases the micromanagement required to get anything out of it. Taking it normally offsets the goofiness that is Rampage. If you take it and eschew Rampage, you're gonna have a bad time.

(That, and the Antimagic trees are crazy good for Cursed, but also eats up a lot of points. Since you don't get enough Gen points to get the best of both, I'd normally recommend leaving Curses alone entirely to fill Antimagic abilities faster.)


Basically everything he said. Well, except the antimagic stuff? I mean, it's good, but once you mop up Tempest Peak, you get the Fungus tree, which... imagine if you had a regeneration infusion running for the entire rest of the game, because that's what it eventually results in.

Aura of Silence so you can deal with the Tempest Peak boss, though, that's a good one. And Antimagic Shield does have lovely Rampage synergy.

Incidentally, if you want to run Rampage Cursed, make sure you play a Cornac and pretty much just rush strength. Get to 5/5/5/0 as soon as possible.

[Todasmile]

Currently, I'm trying to unlock a fun class, but I've done all of the easy ones. Wyrmic, Reaver, Summoner, Cursed, Temporal Warden, Archmage...

I'm not too keen on mage types, which might explain why I don't play Archmage much, but AFAIK all that are left are casters of some kind. Either way, does anyone have any advice on getting something else unlocked?

[Cogwheel]

Currently, I'm trying to unlock a fun class, but I've done all of the easy ones. Wyrmic, Reaver, Summoner, Cursed, Temporal Warden, Archmage...

I'm not too keen on mage types, which might explain why I don't play Archmage much, but AFAIK all that are left are casters of some kind. Either way, does anyone have any advice on getting something else unlocked?

Should you get to the... let's say post-Dreadfell part of the game to avoid spoilers, there's the Sun Paladin, which is pretty melee. Doomed too, they're technically casters but hit people and tank a bunch. I can give instructions for both if you like.

I still recommend getting to the rift as a Warden to unlock Paradox Mages? They're casters, sure, but kind of amazing in the crazy stuff you get to do. A few other unlocks follow.

Finish the Ring of Blood by actually playing the arena minigame. A bit tricky and luck-based, but you'll learn.

Kind of a melee/caster hybrid? Basically you can be a fake caster or you can kill people with mindblades. Oooor you can smack them with a pair of two-handers. Save the Yeek Wayist in the halfling ruins with a Yeek for this.

Like a rogue, but angrier, using more strength, and maybe not as good? Unlock this by dealing 600 in a single hit as a Rogue or Shadowblade. That's not total damage from components. That's one hit. I suggest rushing strength and wielding a two-hander, then landing a giant Shadowstrike to unlock this by level 10 or so. Ditch that abomination of a rogue after.

Clear the Sludgenest, which has a random chance of appearing when you hit 30. Guaranteed if Thalore. Shouldn't actually be done at 30. Yeah, this may take a while. It's basically nature/acid damage, shenanigans and mindblades.

Crazy psionic nonsense and being broken. Is at least fairly tanky. Again, dungeon, chance of appearing when 20, guaranteed for Yeek. A bit of a pain? But doable. Just beat both dreams there.

That's it, I think, except for some caster-y stuff I didn't mention.

[Todasmile]

Should you get to the... let's say post-Dreadfell part of the game to avoid spoilers, there's the Sun Paladin, which is pretty melee. Doomed too, they're technically casters but hit people and tank a bunch. I can give instructions for both if you like.

I still recommend getting to the rift as a Warden to unlock Paradox Mages? They're casters, sure, but kind of amazing in the crazy stuff you get to do. A few other unlocks follow.

Finish the Ring of Blood by actually playing the arena minigame. A bit tricky and luck-based, but you'll learn.

Kind of a melee/caster hybrid? Basically you can be a fake caster or you can kill people with mindblades. Oooor you can smack them with a pair of two-handers. Save the Yeek Wayist in the halfling ruins with a Yeek for this.

Like a rogue, but angrier, using more strength, and maybe not as good? Unlock this by dealing 600 in a single hit as a Rogue or Shadowblade. That's not total damage from components. That's one hit. I suggest rushing strength and wielding a two-hander, then landing a giant Shadowstrike to unlock this by level 10 or so. Ditch that abomination of a rogue after.

Clear the Sludgenest, which has a random chance of appearing when you hit 30. Guaranteed if Thalore. Shouldn't actually be done at 30. Yeah, this may take a while. It's basically nature/acid damage, shenanigans and mindblades.

Crazy psionic nonsense and being broken. Is at least fairly tanky. Again, dungeon, chance of appearing when 20, guaranteed for Yeek. A bit of a pain? But doable. Just beat both dreams there.

That's it, I think, except for some caster-y stuff I didn't mention.

Thanks. Forgot that I had unlocked Brawler. Fun class, but like most fighters, completely outclassed. Hah.

I find my biggest obstacle is just getting to the later game - I can beat every dungeon up to Old Forest easily, Maze with a bit of work, Sand Tunnels if lucky, Daikara if I'm playing something that can take it easy, like a Bulwark or something, but then what do you do? I tend to want to get my levels up even before Daikara, but I can't find anything to level with.

It basically goes T1 Zones (All of them, to about level 12) + Cursed Lumberjack, Old Forest, Maze, Sand, Daikara, then poof.

No clue what to do next.

[Cogwheel]

Thanks. Forgot that I had unlocked Brawler. Fun class, but like most fighters, completely outclassed. Hah.

I find my biggest obstacle is just getting to the later game - I can beat every dungeon up to Old Forest easily, Maze with a bit of work, Sand Tunnels if lucky, Daikara if I'm playing something that can take it easy, like a Bulwark or something, but then what do you do? I tend to want to get my levels up even before Daikara, but I can't find anything to level with.

It basically goes T1 Zones (All of them, to about level 12) + Cursed Lumberjack, Old Forest, Maze, Sand, Daikara, then poof.

No clue what to do next.

First of all, I would not call Daikara easy for a bulwark. In fact, it's where they start to have trouble. Second, fighters are mostly a bit outclassed by casters, I'll give you that, but antimagic/fungus evens it out a lot, just because fungus-tanking is so completely stupid.

With a bit of practice, you should be able to get to the point where you really only need to worry after Daikara. That said, past that... Ruined Dungeon, Golem Graveyard, Tempest Peak (beat the elementals in Derth, then go to Zigur or Angolwen), Lake of Nur, in whatever order. You probably want something to give water breathing or at least Vargh Redemption, for that last one. Old Halfling Ruins are good too, just watch out for the boss if you're squishy.

Brawlers aren't bad, per se, but they have a really rocky start and are, ironically, extremely gear-dependent for a while. At any rate, once you have those wrapped up, you want Dreadfell. Well, no, you don't. No one wants Dreadfell, but it's your next stop anyway.

Besides that, try to incorporate the Slaver Compound into your T2 rotation, and don't go to the Mark of the Spellblaze unless it's with the explicit aim of grabbing the unlock. More trouble than it's worth.

[lord_khaine]

I have played this a bit, and got to agree, no sane person ever wants Dreadfell..
Funny enough, i only think its a couple of times i took this in the fair way, mostly i enters it as early as possible, find the master, run like a little girl, and then comes back 5 levels later to kick his ass :P

[Knaight]

Tempest Peak.

Similarly, when you're asked if you want to enter a tunnel at about level 20, the answer is no.

Oh yes, that one. I lost my last archer (level 14 Thalore with anti-mage abilities) to it, compliments of giants and an air elemental. It really is a nasty place.

[BladeofObliviom]

So, um, weird question.

I just cleared Dreadfell for the first time, and


Got ambushed by a whole crapload of Orcs. After slaughtering them, I got an achievement called "Against All Odds", which suggests that maybe I wasn't supposed to win. Especially because the plot seemed to actually exist now with that whole staff thing, and there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go from here.

Plus Cog mentioned something about a Post-Dreadfell part of the game, which makes me feel like there's something I'm missing.

[Soralin]

So, um, weird question.

I just cleared Dreadfell for the first time, and


Got ambushed by a whole crapload of Orcs. After slaughtering them, I got an achievement called "Against All Odds", which suggests that maybe I wasn't supposed to win. Especially because the plot seemed to actually exist now with that whole staff thing, and there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go from here.

Plus Cog mentioned something about a Post-Dreadfell part of the game, which makes me feel like there's something I'm missing.

I think it's mentioned in your quest log:
Go talk to the guy at the center of the town Last Hope, the closest city to Dreadfell

[Ailurus]

Well, finally decided to hang up my Bulwarks since hitting the Old Forest or Daikara pretty much doomed them. Too many mobile ranged enemies so there was no way for Rush to keep up with them. Plus, pinned = totally doomed, and no way to deal with large groups except for finding a chokepoint or hoping to just outlast them.

Running with a Wyrmic now (one of the unlocks my Bulwarks did manage to get), and so far (just reaching the t2 dungeons) things seem much more promising. The fungus tree is indeed amazing, plenty of AoE talents which should be useful later, and this time I get to be the one dropping all the fire and lightning. Stupid crystals and giants. Wish some of the cooldowns were a bit shorter, but (so far at least) its viable to drop the attacks on the monsters, then (if someone is still alive) run away fixing health and equilibrium while waiting for them to recharge.

[Todasmile]

Well, finally decided to hang up my Bulwarks since hitting the Old Forest or Daikara pretty much doomed them. Too many mobile ranged enemies so there was no way for Rush to keep up with them. Plus, pinned = totally doomed, and no way to deal with large groups except for finding a chokepoint or hoping to just outlast them.

Running with a Wyrmic now (one of the unlocks my Bulwarks did manage to get), and so far (just reaching the t2 dungeons) things seem much more promising. The fungus tree is indeed amazing, plenty of AoE talents which should be useful later, and this time I get to be the one dropping all the fire and lightning. Stupid crystals and giants. Wish some of the cooldowns were a bit shorter, but (so far at least) its viable to drop the attacks on the monsters, then (if someone is still alive) run away fixing health and equilibrium while waiting for them to recharge.

What always ticks me off a bit about Wyrmics is the way that they have all of these options and stuff, but they always end in a breath attack. One which always scales with Strength.

[BladeofObliviom]

I think it's mentioned in your quest log:
Go talk to the guy at the center of the town Last Hope, the closest city to Dreadfell

Oh, that makes sense! I'd misread the quest log as saying to go to Derth somehow, which confused me when there wasn't anything new there.

[Cogwheel]

So, um, weird question.

I just cleared Dreadfell for the first time, and


Got ambushed by a whole crapload of Orcs. After slaughtering them, I got an achievement called "Against All Odds", which suggests that maybe I wasn't supposed to win. Especially because the plot seemed to actually exist now with that whole staff thing, and there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go from here.

Plus Cog mentioned something about a Post-Dreadfell part of the game, which makes me feel like there's something I'm missing.


Congratulations on beating Dreadfell. As for the other stuff...

Yeah, you're supposed to lose, but it's quite possible to win depending on your class. This only changes the achievement, a few dialogues, and obviously the XP/loot. The plot itself will get railroaded soon enough. If you lose, you don't actually lose a life for that.

Hit up Last Hope, as another said, and move on from there. Once you eventually reach the Gates of Morning, remember two things. First, talk to what's-her-name there for the spider cave quest. It's the easiest quest there, and you get the Sun Paladin quest.

Second, no, you aren't meant to take the prides on yet. Please don't.

[Worira]

You do lose a life if you kill all the orcs and then die, though.

[Todasmile]

Why did I have to get a Rune of Reflection on an Antimagic character? WHY?

[Cogwheel]

Why did I have to get a Rune of Reflection on an Antimagic character? WHY?

It's not a huge loss? You have the infusions of never dying ever, or will soon. King of regen.

Rune of Reflection is a bit of a tossup on most of my rune characters anyway, I find, unless I'm running an archmage. The reflection is lovely, but I find that even after magic-scaling, it... tends to be a much flimsier shield than most runes I come across.

Basically, there are worse drops to be taunted with as antimagic.


You do lose a life if you kill all the orcs and then die, though.

For killing the boss and then dying, I believe. Killing the orcs is fine. But yeah, this.

[Todasmile]

It's not a huge loss? You have the infusions of never dying ever, or will soon. King of regen.

Rune of Reflection is a bit of a tossup on most of my rune characters anyway, I find, unless I'm running an archmage. The reflection is lovely, but I find that even after magic-scaling, it... tends to be a much flimsier shield than most runes I come across.

Basically, there are worse drops to be taunted with as antimagic.

I have literally seen a RoR like three times before. It's less "Wow, what a great drop" and more something like three artifact bows dropping as a mage.

[Worira]

For killing the boss and then dying, I believe. Killing the orcs is fine. But yeah, this.

Well, I mean, the boss is an orc. But yes, I think you can also kill only the boss, die to the others, and lose a life.

[nooblade]

Well Incursion is still buggy oftentimes soo...

I think I might try a shaloren berserker. I expect the criticals and critical damage to go well with some abilities, and also timeless extending that invulnerable skill may be fun. And I haven't had success yet with an antimagic warrior so I don't mind losing AM. Maybe.

That or just a halfling archmage. Since I don't have a winner yet maybe I should embrace the cheese. Does wildfire's self-damage reduction still let you use it with harmony's global speed boost?

Anyone have success with the rogue-like classes in this roguelike?

[Cogwheel]

Well Incursion is still buggy oftentimes soo...

I think I might try a shaloren berserker. I expect the criticals and critical damage to go well with some abilities, and also timeless extending that invulnerable skill may be fun. And I haven't had success yet with an antimagic warrior so I don't mind losing AM. Maybe.

That or just a halfling archmage. Since I don't have a winner yet maybe I should embrace the cheese. Does wildfire's self-damage reduction still let you use it with harmony's global speed boost?

Anyone have success with the rogue-like classes in this roguelike?


Rogues are hard and I don't really touch them, but they're effective.

Shaloren berserkers are difficult, but definitely exist, purely for that invulnerability+Timeless trick you mentioned. Again, though, it's not antimagic you want. Antimagic is good? But it's mostly a gateway to fungus.

Any archmage is good, but halflings are fantastic, yes. Halfling corrupters may be even better. Basically, they get some silly huge crit chance.

Lastly, it's reduction, meaning it's still non-zero. So yes, harmony absolutely does work with it. You might not have the generic points to blow on harmony as a non-Cornac archmage, though? Uncertain. And the category point to unlock it, too.

[Knaight]

Apropos of nothing, I just felt that I would mention that troll poetry is the single best use of lore I have seen in this game. To the point where an excerpt from the poem would fit in the opening post as an enticement for new players.

[Cogwheel]

Apropos of nothing, I just felt that I would mention that troll poetry is the single best use of lore I have seen in this game. To the point where an excerpt from the poem would fit in the opening post as an enticement for new players.

What, no mention of Rolf and Weisman, and their inexplicably omnipresent letters?

[BladeofObliviom]

So, um, before going off to continue the main plot, I hit level 30 a little bit after that ambush, and recieved a notification about a mysterious lush forest to the north.

Anyway, I'm quite a curious person, so I figured "why not?"

Oh god was I wrong.


The Sludgenest might actually be the worst dungeon I've seen in my life. Tough enemies? Yup. Tough Enemies that PROPAGATE EXPONENTIALLY?! Yup. Propagating Tough enemies that have ranged poison attacks? Yup. Ranged Poisonous Tough Propagating Enemies that turn off your abilities and stop cooldowns dead with the aforementioned poisons? You betcha!

These same enemies SPAWN FROM THE GODDAMNED WALLS AS THEY DAMNED WELL PLEASE?! Arafagadhaglhs!

[Cogwheel]

So, um, before going off to continue the main plot, I hit level 30 a little bit after that ambush, and recieved a notification about a mysterious lush forest to the north.

Anyway, I'm quite a curious person, so I figured "why not?"

Oh god was I wrong.


The Sludgenest might actually be the worst dungeon I've seen in my life. Tough enemies? Yup. Tough Enemies that PROPAGATE EXPONENTIALLY?! Yup. Propagating Tough enemies that have ranged poison attacks? Yup. Ranged Poisonous Tough Propagating Enemies that turn off your abilities and stop cooldowns dead with the aforementioned poisons? You betcha!

These same enemies SPAWN FROM THE GODDAMNED WALLS AS THEY DAMNED WELL PLEASE?! Arafagadhaglhs!


It becomes merely an easy farmfest if you come back later with poison resist or at least just nature/acid resist. And just not being level 30. It's not actually a level 30 dungeon unless you're a thalore or skeleton or something?

Nasty place otherwise, but do come back at some point when you're a good bit more powerful. It leads to a very nice unlock.

[Knaight]

Anyway, I'm quite a curious person, so I figured "why not?"

Curiosity seems to be an interesting thing in this game - it gets me killed often enough. Most recently, I just had to mess with the pedestals, which turned out to be a really bad idea. Turns out level 8 characters are horribly outclassed by level 46 bosses. Who knew?


What, no mention of Rolf and Weisman, and their inexplicably omnipresent letters?
I like those two well enough, but Troll Poetry still wins here.

[BladeofObliviom]

It becomes merely an easy farmfest if you come back later with poison resist or at least just nature/acid resist. And just not being level 30. It's not actually a level 30 dungeon unless you're a thalore or skeleton or something?

Nasty place otherwise, but do come back at some point when you're a good bit more powerful. It leads to a very nice unlock.

Yeah, I came back after grinding up on another dungeon or two (All my hate for Daikara, by the way. It wasn't as bad as you guys all made it sound, but still, yuck.) and managed to get through, though things were still a little dicey and I only just barely managed to squeeze my way out without getting killed in a manner most unpleasant.

Managed to gank the boss, though, who was actually pretty easy in comparison to the exponentially-growing slime hordes. Crimson Oozes are the worst, by the way, since they have a lot of health and split almost every turn. If you don't have AOE attacks, you're basically screwed.


Curiosity seems to be an interesting thing in this game - it gets me killed often enough. Most recently, I just had to mess with the pedestals, which turned out to be a really bad idea. Turns out level 8 characters are horribly outclassed by level 46 bosses. Who knew?

Are you talking about the BRINGER OF DOOM! in Reknor?

Because somehow I actually managed to kill that thing without experiencing yet another stupid permadeath. :smallcool:

[Cogwheel]

Yeah, I came back after grinding up on another dungeon or two (All my hate for Daikara, by the way. It wasn't as bad as you guys all made it sound, but still, yuck.)

Exaggerating Daikatana Mountain is funny, though.



Managed to gank the boss, though, who was actually pretty easy in comparison to the exponentially-growing slime hordes. Crimson Oozes are the worst, by the way, since they have a lot of health and split almost every turn. If you don't have AOE attacks, you're basically screwed.

I would sooner hate the poison ones, or brittle clear, but to each their own.




Are you talking about the HIDE YE SPOILERS in YE ARTE INCORRECTE?

Actually, they can come up wherever from T2 on, I think. There's a lot of variance in their level? But generally if you're 18ish or up, it'll be difficult but feasible.

[nooblade]

I like those two well enough, but Troll Poetry still wins here.

Back when ToME looked mostly different, there were some really neat lore funny books. I wish I could remember the names... They had the D&D wizard names in the title like "Mordenkainen's Useless Manual". One joke went like, "Uncle always said laughter was the best medicine. Too bad he died of tuberculosis."

[Knaight]

Are you talking about the BRINGER OF DOOM! in Reknor?

Because somehow I actually managed to kill that thing without experiencing yet another stupid permadeath. :smallcool:

I don't remember what it was called, but it was in the Old Forest. I broke three pedestals, killed three humanoids, and suddenly this horrific thing of doom with 30 times my HP popped up and killed me. Then I made the mistake of thinking I could sneak around it to finish the area, which didn't work so well.

Judging by the comments on variable level, I think I was just unlucky. Granted, I was level 8 or so, and it was 46, so it's not like there was any chance of escaping this.

EDIT: Just checked the death log. It was a Bringer of Doom.

[Mewtarthio]

The Bringer of Doom is pretty unpredictable. For starters, it's a dual-classed randboss. There are a number of places where you fight such things, and they can never be taken lightly. There's no way to tell what sort of powers it'll bring to the table until it shows up. Furthermore, the BoD is based off a random demon. Sometimes, like what happened to you, it'll be some level 40+ elite monster that'd chill your blood even without the randboss upgrade. Other times, it'll be a wretchling (albeit a very dangerous one).

I recommend not touching the pedestals unless you've got some very good escape options.

[Cogwheel]

The Bringer of Doom is pretty unpredictable. For starters, it's a dual-classed randboss. There are a number of places where you fight such things, and they can never be taken lightly. There's no way to tell what sort of powers it'll bring to the table until it shows up. Furthermore, the BoD is based off a random demon. Sometimes, like what happened to you, it'll be some level 40+ elite monster that'd chill your blood even without the randboss upgrade. Other times, it'll be a wretchling (albeit a very dangerous one).

I recommend not touching the pedestals unless you've got some very good escape options.

But I poke them literally 100% of the time.

I am not a clever man.

[Knaight]

But I poke them literally 100% of the time.

I am not a clever man.

You could try my Vault escape mechanism. Basically, you set up a rod of recall, then open the Vault with about two turns left before being pulled out. If you can handle what's there, you can come back later. If you can't, you just need to live long enough for rod of recall to kick in.

I suspect that cracking pedestal 3 with 10 turns prior to rod recall would work similarly, though I haven't actually tested this.

[lord_khaine]

Oh.. that is actually a very tricky idea :smalltongue:

But else, what is the deal with Solipsist? I think its a bit hard to determine where to go with them, or what they should do.

[Mewtarthio]

But else, what is the deal with Solipsist? I think its a bit hard to determine where to go with them, or what they should do.

Astral Projections can only deal very limited amounts of damage. Know what doesn't care about damage output? Sleep + Inner Demons. Know what else? Racial summoning and Dominant Will. Enjoy.

Note that this will get a bit of a nerf in the next release (along with summoning in general) when monsters start explicitly hunting down the summoner after dealing with your minions, but Dominant Will will get boosted to cover elites as well, so it balances out in my opinion.

[BladeofObliviom]

I don't remember what it was called, but it was in the Old Forest. I broke three pedestals, killed three humanoids, and suddenly this horrific thing of doom with 30 times my HP popped up and killed me. Then I made the mistake of thinking I could sneak around it to finish the area, which didn't work so well.

Judging by the comments on variable level, I think I was just unlucky. Granted, I was level 8 or so, and it was 46, so it's not like there was any chance of escaping this.

EDIT: Just checked the death log. It was a Bringer of Doom.

Man, Old Forest at level 8? You are much ballsier than I am. I usually do Old Forest second to last of the T2 dungeons because of those giant ant swarms, and I don't even attempt T2 until after I've already cleared all of the T1 dungeons. :smalleek:


The Bringer of Doom is pretty unpredictable. For starters, it's a dual-classed randboss. There are a number of places where you fight such things, and they can never be taken lightly. There's no way to tell what sort of powers it'll bring to the table until it shows up. Furthermore, the BoD is based off a random demon. Sometimes, like what happened to you, it'll be some level 40+ elite monster that'd chill your blood even without the randboss upgrade. Other times, it'll be a wretchling (albeit a very dangerous one).

I recommend not touching the pedestals unless you've got some very good escape options.


I guess it was a little presumptuous of me to assume that it was always in Reknor. I thought it was deliberate placement because the dungeon is quite literally the game's equivalent of Moria. Filled with Orcs and Trolls as the main enemies, plus it's the bridge between East and West plotwise.

My Bringer of Doom was a ridiculously powerful monster that strongly resembled a Skeletal Balrog, so I assumed it was just part of the allusion.



You could try my Vault escape mechanism. Basically, you set up a rod of recall, then open the Vault with about two turns left before being pulled out. If you can handle what's there, you can come back later. If you can't, you just need to live long enough for rod of recall to kick in.

I suspect that cracking pedestal 3 with 10 turns prior to rod recall would work similarly, though I haven't actually tested this.

Why did I never think of this. This is brilliant.

[Knaight]

Man, Old Forest at level 8? You are much ballsier than I am. I usually do Old Forest second to last of the T2 dungeons because of those giant ant swarms, and I don't even attempt T2 until after I've already cleared all of the T1 dungeons. :smalleek:
Level 6 actually. I had leveled twice in there before the Pedestal Incident. Level 8 is for Daikara.


Why did I never think of this. This is brilliant.

It didn't occur to me until my 5th vault or so, and I suspect it only occurred to me because I have a habit of picking fights that are somewhat more dangerous than is probably sensible.

[Cogwheel]

Astral Projections can only deal very limited amounts of damage. Know what doesn't care about damage output? Sleep + Inner Demons. Know what else? Racial summoning and Dominant Will. Enjoy.

Note that this will get a bit of a nerf in the next release (along with summoning in general) when monsters start explicitly hunting down the summoner after dealing with your minions, but Dominant Will will get boosted to cover elites as well, so it balances out in my opinion.

They're also pretty decent as straight mind damage blasters, fairly good tanks and so on, depending on what you spec for. Sandman/Restless whatever/Nightmare/Inner Demons are all pretty necessary, though. Basically, Solipsists are wonderful little gamebreakers all around.


Man, Old Forest at level 8? You are much ballsier than I am. I usually do Old Forest second to last of the T2 dungeons because of those giant ant swarms, and I don't even attempt T2 until after I've already cleared all of the T1 dungeons. :smalleek:

How are the ants threatening, of all the things there? With you on clearing T1, though.



I guess it was a little presumptuous of me to assume that it was always in Reknor. I thought it was deliberate placement because the dungeon is quite literally the game's equivalent of Moria. Filled with Orcs and Trolls as the main enemies, plus it's the bridge between East and West plotwise.

My Bringer of Doom was a ridiculously powerful monster that strongly resembled a Skeletal Balrog, so I assumed it was just part of the allusion.


That sounds like an Uruivellas? But those aren't skeletal. Maybe a Forge-Giant, if you were profoundly unlucky.


Why did I never think of this. This is brilliant.

Agreed, though I suspect I will never think to use it.


Level 6 actually. I had leveled twice in there before the Pedestal Incident. Level 8 is for Daikara.

Haha what.

Why would you do that.

Finish ye T1s.

[BladeofObliviom]

How are the ants threatening, of all the things there? With you on clearing T1, though.

The ants aren't really that bad, it's just that there are suddenly dozens of them, most have ranged attacks, and some of them have status effects. They'll surround and kill you dead if you stumble close by mistake as a squishy.

Plus, my awful luck combined with the fact that there are tons of enemies at once usually means there's at least one Rare with class levels in there, and because of same awful luck it's usually a summoner or something.


That sounds like an Uruivellas? But those aren't skeletal. Maybe a Forge-Giant, if you were profoundly unlucky.


It's not an Uruivellas, since I've actually seen one of those before. I've never run into that particular demon type before or after, though, and thanks to the lack of any kind of enemy information aside from bosses on the wiki and greater internet, I couldn't identify it. Heck, I couldn't even find out what a forge-giant looks like to compare it to my memory.

I kind of wish I'd taken a screenshot now.

[Knaight]

Haha what.

Why would you do that.

Finish ye T1s.

It's newness, mostly. I haven't been at the game long enough to see all that much of it, and with the quests pointing towards those nearly immediately, they're the obvious option when it comes to not retreading ground. I suspect I'll fall into the pattern of going through all the T1s, then all the T2s eventually. As of now, though, going through more aggressively meets my purposes.

[Todasmile]

Okay.

So Rampage Cursed are a bit crazy.

(Yeeks, Tempest, AND Stone unlocked on the same run. I would have gotten even further if I hadn't tried to do Dark Crypt out of sheer hubris.)

Also of note: Yeek Summoners. Hilarious. Can't believe I just got killed in two hits by Bill at level 10.

[Cogwheel]

Okay.

So Rampage Cursed are a bit crazy.

(Yeeks, Tempest, AND Stone unlocked on the same run. I would have gotten even further if I hadn't tried to do Dark Crypt out of sheer hubris.)

Also of note: Yeek Summoners. Hilarious. Can't believe I just got killed in two hits by Bill at level 10.

Yeeeeeeees, join us on the cheese side.



It's not an Uruivellas, since I've actually seen one of those before. I've never run into that particular demon type before or after, though, and thanks to the lack of any kind of enemy information aside from bosses on the wiki and greater internet, I couldn't identify it. Heck, I couldn't even find out what a forge-giant looks like to compare it to my memory.

I kind of wish I'd taken a screenshot now.


Hrm. I'll screenshot a Forge-Giant for you if I see one, I guess.

[nooblade]

One day, if I ever get any good at this game, I'd want to try a yeek wyrmic. And the shaloren berserker. And a halfling arnorithil. And...

But for super cheese? AFAIK the best cheese is a dwarf alchemist. I think I unlocked wildfire and ice on the same near-winner alchemist I had running a year or so ago.

[Todasmile]

Playing Yeek Summoner. Made it as far as my Rampage Cursed. Unlocked both Mindslayer and Solipsist, feeling pretty accomplished. Decide that since I'm basically unstoppable at this point, and I've unlocked two classes, might as well go for broke.

Go to Dreadfell. Haven't even done Daikara. Never do Daikara.

Rampaging through the first five floors. Grand Arrival Drakes are summoning enough monsters and have enough AoE damage that it doesn't matter what I'm fighting; obliterated in two seconds. Get to sixth floor. There's a unique. I don't care what it is, I just summon a bunch of stuff. I start taking a few too many spikes of damage, so I retreat to the previous floor. No sense taking risks, right?

Get to the previous floor. HP really low. Pop a regen rune. Die instantly.

Look at the chat log.

My own dragons attacking me. It was a Fear Cursed. They all had Paranoia. Literally the only thing I've ever encountered that could possibly stop me at that point.

Using my own insane power against me.

This game.

[Cogwheel]

...Welp. Look a bit closer next time, I guess. Never heard of that effect, but then, I don't play minion types.

Give Solipsists a go next, maybe?


Oh, and I should point out that all jokes aside, Daikara is necessary to advance the plot for the 'go to Dreadfell' quest.


Edit: The only areas I seriously, consistently avoid are the Mark of the Spellblaze and the Solipsist area.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

You don't have to do the T2 quest. I had to bail out of The Maze because there was a nasty unique there that I just could not kill. I came back at level 30 after I'd finished everything else.

[Mewtarthio]

Yep. If you feel particularly insane, you can even do Dreadfell before clearing any of the dungeons. You'll even get an achievement for your trouble.

[Cogwheel]

Yep. If you feel particularly insane, you can even do Dreadfell before clearing any of the dungeons. You'll even get an achievement for your trouble.

H... how do you know this?

[Mewtarthio]

H... how do you know this?

Code diving. I'm not that crazy. :smallwink:

[Cogwheel]

Code diving. I'm not that crazy. :smallwink:

I'll just point in the general direction of ADOM and nod meaningfully, yes?

[BladeofObliviom]

I suppose you could do it by just not killing any bosses prior to Dreadfell and grinding on unfortunate adventurers. It wouldn't exactly be easy, but at least you wouldn't be jumping into that hell-dungeon at level 1.

Apparently there's also a similar achievement for High Tempest Urkis being the first boss you kill, which is equally awful. Especially because that means doing Tempest Peak without a Rod of Recall, which in turn means that you either kill Urkis or you die. You can't escape! :smalleek:

[Wookieetank]

I'll just point in the general direction of ADOM and nod meaningfully, yes?

Bwa hahahahahahaha :smallbiggrin: I'll +1 Cog on this one.

Got back to this recently with a caster type (forget which) and managed to clear the first area of some forest. Cleared most of the second before a bear got me. With the dreary weather we're having should fire this up for a bit tonight.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I suppose you could do it by just not killing any bosses prior to Dreadfell and grinding on unfortunate adventurers. It wouldn't exactly be easy, but at least you wouldn't be jumping into that hell-dungeon at level 1.

Apparently there's also a similar achievement for High Tempest Urkis being the first boss you kill, which is equally awful. Especially because that means doing Tempest Peak without a Rod of Recall, which in turn means that you either kill Urkis or you die. You can't escape! :smalleek:

Couldn't an Anti-Magic leave Tempest Peak?

[Cogwheel]

Couldn't an Anti-Magic leave Tempest Peak?

This is correct. I always found that one hilarious. Mages get "oh, we can teleport you in, but there's no way back down, godspeed".

Zigur? "Oh, yeah, I know this one road."

[nooblade]

I'll just point in the general direction of ADOM and nod meaningfully, yes?

I resent that! So far I've spent less time on ADoM than this AND gotten a (normal) win for my troubles there.

IMHO ADoM has more repetitive simple stuff... No more spoilers. Of course the challenges are more insane, Brimstone man is basically the same as going into Dreadfell at level 1, but then there are winners for them, it's amazing.

The thing that frustrates me most about ToME is that you can read tooltips in the game and interpret it differently from how it actually is. For example, take the berserker's stunning blow: the stun power is based on physical power, needs enough accuracy to overcome the target's defense (I forget exactly what this equation is), and forces the target to make a physical save. Another example is warshout... I don't know how it works exactly but it forces the target to make a mental save based on your strength or physical power. So I won't know if I could confuse something until I try, really.

Also some talent numbers change based on raw points, while others change from the multiplier. And then there's the "will increase with your spellpower" bit that doesn't explain how much. Some talents don't even give you that much, merely a "chance to blind target" without saying if it scales with talent level or not.

I guess that's not such a terrible thing though. You can be more prepared to play by having backup plans like teleportation runes for those "anywhere but here" moments. I think the thing that keeps me from winning is more like wanting to try the different combinations of things to figure out what the heck the enemies are doing that is so terrible.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

You really need escape options. You don't have ADOMs automatic +Speed buff when you are low HP in coward tactics. You also don't get ADOM's easy controlled teleports either (scum ID for blink dogs).

My Solipsist is doing well with a movement infusion, telekenetic leap (from item) and dream walk. Unless I get several unlucky stuns or freezes in a row, I can always escape.

[Knaight]

I just now discovered the use of category points to get better at what you can already do. I love it already - and Cornac humans just jumped way up in my estimation.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

So apparently Bane of Confusion isn't removed by Mental Shielding since it is Magical/Bane and not Mental. Lost a life to that since it shut down all my escape options. :smallsigh:

[lord_khaine]

Else, regardig the super skills, what are peoples favorites there?

[Mewtarthio]

Cauterize. It's really good. Obviously, there are some prodigies that are better for certain classes (like Mental Tyranny for Doomed or Eternal Guard for Bulwarks), but anyone with the Magic to qualify should get Cauterize at some point. Unless, maybe, you're going for the Eternal Guard + Spectral Shield + Stone Warden combo.

[Cogwheel]

I just now discovered the use of category points to get better at what you can already do. I love it already - and Cornac humans just jumped way up in my estimation.

I rarely do this, except for Shadows on Doomed. But yeah, Cornac are great.

Prodigies... well, let's see. The no-brainers for some builds (Mental Tyranny, Temporal Form) are getting nerfed in the next patch, and hard. As of the beta, I pick...

Oh, huh. Cauterize is good. I just sort of always ignored it. Let's see... may as well categorise this. Excluding Cauterize for this purpose.


Favourite: Irresistible Sun.
Best utility: Probably around Draconic Body/Spine of the World/Draconic Will
Best situationally: Meteoric Crash, Secrets of Telos, Superpower, Aether Permeation
Funniest: You Shall Be My Weapon, Lucky Day, Spell Feedback (the most spiteful prodigy)

Secret Stone Warden Gamebreaker Tier: Eternal Guard, Spectral Shield

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Eye of the Tiger is a pretty useful prodigy.

[Cogwheel]

Eye of the Tiger is a pretty useful prodigy.

Never ran it! Would've been nice on my crit-focused Doomed, but I had other stuff to grab.

128% mental crit pre-Luck of the Little Folk is great, by the way.

[Knaight]

On a completely unrelated note, the Old Forest apparently has an alternate version which is basically the normal Old Forest merged with the Scintillating caves. It's a nice area, even if it has entirely too many magic users and entirely too many dens of ludicrous numbers of snakes and canines. Then it has its boss.

I hate that thing. I hate that thing so much. I thought whatshisfaceroot was annoying enough, but at least whatshisfaceroot has the decency not to pin you down long range with some mental ability, then start spamming damage fields on you.

[Cogwheel]

On a completely unrelated note, the Old Forest apparently has an alternate version which is basically the normal Old Forest merged with the Scintillating caves. It's a nice area, even if it has entirely too many magic users and entirely too many dens of ludicrous numbers of snakes and canines. Then it has its boss.

I hate that thing. I hate that thing so much. I thought whatshisfaceroot was annoying enough, but at least whatshisfaceroot has the decency not to pin you down long range with some mental ability, then start spamming damage fields on you.

Wrathroot is basically harmless. Shardskin is... yeah.

When I see crystal forest, I just back off and do a few others first. The beta nerfs him, rest assured..

[Knaight]

Wrathroot is basically harmless. Shardskin is... yeah.
I did manage to kill him eventually, but it involved a lot of hit and run, and even then I only managed it because I have a rather ludicrous set of items, starting with some beautiful arrows. I've been getting good items in general this playthrough - including a tier 5 maul which does 66-99 damage, 15 darkness damage on top of it, silence immunity, 32% bonus damage on humanoids, so on and so forth. It's "voratun greatmaul 'borizalidar'", and it is a thing of beauty, particularly given that I found it in the Sandworm lair, at level 17. Sadly, I found it as an archer.

[Cogwheel]

I did manage to kill him eventually, but it involved a lot of hit and run, and even then I only managed it because I have a rather ludicrous set of items, starting with some beautiful arrows. I've been getting good items in general this playthrough - including a tier 5 maul which does 66-99 damage, 15 darkness damage on top of it, silence immunity, 32% bonus damage on humanoids, so on and so forth. It's "voratun greatmaul 'borizalidar'", and it is a thing of beauty, particularly given that I found it in the Sandworm lair, at level 17. Sadly, I found it as an archer.

Rule 1 of Sandworm Lair/Maze/Tunnel chest loot: It will be voratun, and you will find it as the wrong class.

[Rolaran]

Rule 1 of Sandworm Lair/Maze/Tunnel chest loot: It will be voratun, and you will find it as the wrong class.

Yep. Found not one, but two voratun shields in the Maze one time. Was a Reaver.

On a side note, "Borizalidar" is a magnificent name for a weapon. I literally can't read it without singing it to the tune of the appropriate Soul Eater jingle.

[Knaight]

On a side note, "Borizalidar" is a magnificent name for a weapon. I literally can't read it without singing it to the tune of the appropriate Soul Eater jingle.

It really is. The weapon was good enough to suit it too, as opposed to other cases where I've seen some excellent names attached to abject crap.

Unrelated: Meditation and I do not get along. I keep forgetting that I have it on, then damage keeps being weak for some reason, boss fights take eighty turns, and I realize that Meditation's been there getting in the way. On the other hand, the rest of the Wyrmic class and I get along just fine.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I just rolled a skeletal archmage. I get the Spellhunt Remnants in Trollmire. Then a rare drops a decent staff randart. Oh wait, nevermind it's Infused by arcane disrupting forces :smallfurious:

[Cogwheel]

I just rolled a skeletal archmage. I get the Spellhunt Remnants in Trollmire. Then a rare drops a decent staff randart. Oh wait, nevermind it's Infused by arcane disrupting forces :smallfurious:

Arcane disrupting staff? Amazing. At least the Remnants sell for a bunch.

I'm nearing my last two lives on my level 30 archer, meanwhile, and... getting kind of tired of it. Only so much archery I can stomach. Pondering either a greatsword or staff Arcane Blade next.

[Todasmile]

Say, do the Spellhunt Remnants ever become, like, really awesome? Because I fed them a T3 artifact and, while they were probably the best gloves I had, they still weren't as amazing as I would have thought.

[Worira]

At t5, they're pretty much the best gloves in the game for antimagic characters. And you only feed them artifacts that would be worthless for you anyway.

[lord_khaine]

I'm nearing my last two lives on my level 30 archer, meanwhile, and... getting kind of tired of it. Only so much archery I can stomach. Pondering either a greatsword or staff Arcane Blade next.

Well, a greatsword wielding Arcane blade has been one of the characters i have gotten the furthest with, and had the most fun so far :)

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Then a rare drops a decent staff randart. Oh wait, nevermind it's Infused by arcane disrupting forces :smallfurious:
I just got a second one in Sandworm Lair. The RNG is really not playing nice.:smallsigh:

[Todasmile]

I'm nearing my last two lives on my level 30 archer, meanwhile, and... getting kind of tired of it. Only so much archery I can stomach. Pondering either a greatsword or staff Arcane Blade next.

This actually got me wondering: How many people here normally play on Roguelike?

[Cogwheel]

This actually got me wondering: How many people here normally play on Roguelike?

Not me. Though I should give it a try one of these days.

...Hmm. Wonder if I could beat Easier Roguelike on the first try, for two modes I generally don't touch. Generally, though, if I want a one-life experience, I boot up Dredmor or Stone Soup.

[BladeofObliviom]

This actually got me wondering: How many people here normally play on Roguelike?

I do! Though I haven't actually finished the game, so take that as you will. :smalltongue:

The closest I've ever gotten was with a Halfling Summoner who made it to about Level 40 before I got too arrogant and was murdered by high-level Orcs. :smalltongue:

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Try Thalnor Summoner. Blight resistance is nice and you end up with something like 25% resist all from thick skin + racial generics. Exp mod does mean your summons won't be as good when you finally hit Dreadfell

[Worira]

I don't play Roguelike, although I do have a few wins with no deaths.

[nooblade]

I found out something I should've known long ago just now--the luck stat has nothing to do with what items drop. Goodbye Prox's lucky halfling foot, you only have small effects on combat.

Anyway, wiki pages on Guides->Survival and game mechanics are super useful. http://te4.org/wiki/Special:Categories


This actually got me wondering: How many people here normally play on Roguelike?

I will normally delete a character who dies because OCD. Might as well play on Roguelike.

My furthest was with some alchemist (shalore?) who died many times trying to figure out the thing after all the orcs.

And I have a question for people... Anyone have success with invisibility?

[Cogwheel]

I found out something I should've known long ago just now--the luck stat has nothing to do with what items drop. Goodbye Prox's lucky halfling foot, you only have small effects on combat.

Anyway, wiki pages on Guides->Survival and game mechanics are super useful. http://te4.org/wiki/Special:Categories



I will normally delete a character who dies because OCD. Might as well play on Roguelike.

My furthest was with some alchemist (shalore?) who died many times trying to figure out the thing after all the orcs.

And I have a question for people... Anyone have success with invisibility?

Invisiwhatnow? I don't do subtlety.

And yes, luck is mostly some defenses and crit stuff. Which makes the Lucky Day prodigy pretty funny.

[Ailurus]

The closest I've ever gotten was with a Halfling Summoner


Try Thalnor Summoner.

Played around some with the summoners, but got to say they're probably my least favorite class of all the ones I've tried so far. Not to say they're not effective, far from it (got me my first trip to the East, and unlocked about 10 things before I gave up on him), but it just wasn't fun in the long run. At the beginning it was great (especially when my horde of drakes overran Daikara), but by the end it was just "oh, look, enemies. summon drakes, back off, let them have fun. Fire resistant enemies? Summon a minotaur first, then summon more drakes"

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Oozemancers are a bit more fun and nearly as strong. You end up with 3 strong attacks that are on short cooldowns, plus lots of other fun stuff. Keep in mind that they are forced to be Anti-Magic.

[Knaight]

I've been playing a Dwarven Archer (Slinger) recently, and the thing is absolutely ridiculous. A nearly full set of good artifacts gets you pretty far, and being able to use shields with a sling is just glorious. However, it's also brought in some game mechanics that are completely unexplained. So: Anyone know how size works? Behemoth Hide improves it.

[Todasmile]

I've been playing a Dwarven Archer (Slinger) recently, and the thing is absolutely ridiculous. A nearly full set of good artifacts gets you pretty far, and being able to use shields with a sling is just glorious. However, it's also brought in some game mechanics that are completely unexplained. So: Anyone know how size works? Behemoth Hide improves it.

Size is unimportant but for a few occasions. Halflings, Grappling Brawlers, a few specific talents.

[Cogwheel]

Oozemancers are a bit more fun and nearly as strong. You end up with 3 strong attacks that are on short cooldowns, plus lots of other fun stuff. Keep in mind that they are forced to be Anti-Magic.

I would say they're even more powerful? They just require slightly more effort. Oozemancers are one of the top 3 classes in my mind, though.


Played around some with the summoners, but got to say they're probably my least favorite class of all the ones I've tried so far. Not to say they're not effective, far from it (got me my first trip to the East, and unlocked about 10 things before I gave up on him), but it just wasn't fun in the long run. At the beginning it was great (especially when my horde of drakes overran Daikara), but by the end it was just "oh, look, enemies. summon drakes, back off, let them have fun. Fire resistant enemies? Summon a minotaur first, then summon more drakes"

I could never finish a summoner run. They're really effective, but... sort of the caster equivalent of archers? Simple and effective with little to learn, but so mind-bogglingly dull. Pity, really.

[BladeofObliviom]

Why are archers dull? I'm just curious. I've only played one, but I never got particularly bored. At least for me, it mostly just felt like playing a slightly less squishy and slower Archmage.

I mean, you have a lot of attacks that hit at a distance and often have side effects like enemy slowdown, stunning, pinning to the ground, etc. You get a couple of AOE attacks that recharge fairly quickly. You should still get some way to boost mobility, since you don't have the Archmage's Phase Door power, but I never found playing an archer to be incredibly boring.

Summoners, though, I can see where you're coming from. I played one for 40 levels, I should know. :smalltongue:

[Cogwheel]

Why are archers dull? I'm just curious. I've only played one, but I never got particularly bored. At least for me, it mostly just felt like playing a slightly less squishy and slower Archmage.

I mean, you have a lot of attacks that hit at a distance and often have side effects like enemy slowdown, stunning, pinning to the ground, etc. You get a couple of AOE attacks that recharge fairly quickly. You should still get some way to boost mobility, since you don't have the Archmage's Phase Door power, but I never found playing an archer to be incredibly boring.

Summoners, though, I can see where you're coming from. I played one for 40 levels, I should know. :smalltongue:

I guess it's mostly that they have a lot of "shoot that there guy", repeatedly. That, and they shoot fast but deal limited damage compared to other ranged attack classes, so every little fight takes a fair bit longer to finish. It gets a bit tiresome.

Upcoming patch makes them a bit less boring. Still only managed to play as far as L30.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm.. so far the most interesting class i have played would properly be a paradox mage :)

Though Solipsist might have claimed that spot if there were not so confusing.

Stil.. got to admit i also do have a solid love for the Wyrmic.

[Theoboldi]

A question to the more experienced players around here. I've been interested in playing a Temporal Warden for some time now, but I'm not sure how to do it quite yet. Is it viable to dumb magic as one, and instead focus on dexterity, consitution and willpower, while only putting points into one of the weapon types and Temporal Combat?

[Worira]

It's probably the most viable way to play one, actually. They make great, albeit incredibly boring, archers.

[Theoboldi]

Thought so. I've tried archery on one of them in an earlier playthrough, and they seemed to be pretty good at it. Dimensional Step really helped staying out of melee. Not to mention that this seems to be one of the few builds that skeletons seem to really shine in, which makes me very happy.

Though I find it somewhat annoying that some really good artifact weapons are blocked away from them on the dual-wielding path by this method, since they lack magic and cunning. Very annoying.

[Cogwheel]

For what it's worth, they get what is arguably the best bow in the game by Daikara. Even better if you happen to have a Void Quiver. They're even duller than archers after the new tree archers will get next patch, though, which is sad.

As for skeletons, they shine in plenty of roles. Especially as rogues and archers, and... I guess marauders, as much as anything can be a good marauder? Possibly archmage too, since they have the biggest shield in the game, arguably.

Skeletons do have some fantastic abilities, on the whole. There's a reason they have a colossal XP penalty. The question is just what uses the abilities well enough to justify the penalty.

[nooblade]

The cheesiest skeletons are archmagi or arcane blades. Shield, shield, shield.

I guess I'll spoiler this whole character tale.

Well I tried for a wildfire archmage and discovered the joys of flameshock. That spell reduces enemy damage more than normal stunning and if you enhance it through arcane power (I had T3 spellpower at 61) or spellcraft then it's reliable. Did really well in Daikara thanks to that being skilled up.

My farportal was blocked off by a luminous horror arcane blade however. Even with fire damage penetration (they are normally immune), he kicked my butt several times. Other than that, very fortunate with randomness. Most of my escorts were anorithil or alchemist or temporal, so he got lots of magic stats and magic skills from them. Game was fairly generous with lots of +health items in shops and drops too had an awesome randart dragonbone staff from the sandworm lair too. A vault on level 1 of Dreadfell had fiery choker and I also had Spydre robes possibly from ruined dungeon (I went there late).

Died to some elven cultists at level 25. Trying to teleport away did not work, should've used probability travel or put on that invisibility rune or something. Oh, and roguelike mode so it's loldead. Certainly could've gone further than it did.

[Theoboldi]

Heh. My problem with skeletons probably stems from my insistant desire to put antimagic on every non-magical class. I really don't like having to give up the fungus tree. Though I haven't actually tried a skeleton archmage yet. I might actually do that after my current alchemist dies his inevitable death when I yet again try to tackle on Daikara way too early.

[Cogwheel]

The cheesiest skeletons are archmagi or arcane blades. Shield, shield, shield.

I guess I'll spoiler this whole character tale.

Well I tried for a wildfire archmage and discovered the joys of flameshock. That spell reduces enemy damage more than normal stunning and if you enhance it through arcane power (I had T3 spellpower at 61) or spellcraft then it's reliable. Did really well in Daikara thanks to that being skilled up.

My farportal was blocked off by a luminous horror arcane blade however. Even with fire damage penetration (they are normally immune), he kicked my butt several times. Other than that, very fortunate with randomness. Most of my escorts were anorithil or alchemist or temporal, so he got lots of magic stats and magic skills from them. Game was fairly generous with lots of +health items in shops and drops too had an awesome randart dragonbone staff from the sandworm lair too. A vault on level 1 of Dreadfell had fiery choker and I also had Spydre robes possibly from ruined dungeon (I went there late).

Died to some elven cultists at level 25. Trying to teleport away did not work, should've used probability travel or put on that invisibility rune or something. Oh, and roguelike mode so it's loldead. Certainly could've gone further than it did.

Well, nice going. Next time? Don't do Dark Crypt, kids. You'll probably like Wildfire too, when you get there. And a Luminous Horror anything tends to be awful, in fairness.

Theoboldi: I completely understand. Generally, if antimagic is an option, I will take it. Rogues are one of very, very few exceptions, as most of their artifacts are arcane.

Edit: Arguably berserkers and cursed too? There are a lot of nice arcane two-handers around. Of course, both of those want fungus, and there are great antimagic/nature two-hander artifacts too.

[BladeofObliviom]

Well, nice going. Next time? Don't do Dark Crypt, kids. You'll probably like Wildfire too, when you get there. And a Luminous Horror anything tends to be awful, in fairness.

Yeah, Dark Crypt is genuinely awful.


I've only survived it once, and I couldn't save Melinda. I did manage to stop the Ritual, barely, but the girl got murdered by Blight Damage.

It was completely my fault, too: I was playing a fungus-happy Yeek Oozemancer, and forgot that my ridiculous health regen didn't apply to her.

[Cogwheel]

Yeah, Dark Crypt is genuinely awful.


I've only survived it once, and I couldn't save Melinda. I did manage to stop the Ritual, barely, but the girl got murdered by Blight Damage.

It was completely my fault, too: I was playing a fungus-happy Yeek Oozemancer, and forgot that my ridiculous health regen didn't apply to her.


You only get a random artifact for saving (SPOILER), anyway. Arguably, getting the potential to pick the Bloodspring prodigy is more valuable.

[Beige Dragon]

Tried it on the recommendation of a friend, as i've been enjoying other rougelikes recently. Not a huge fan. The start of the game (Trollmire) is INCREDILY boreing. Its always either: Play a melee fighter, and kill anything incredibly easily by spamming vitality, even if I don't distribute any of my points, I can spam vitality to kill anything. Or, play a non-melee fighter: Get surrounded and barely scrape out of the area hardly alive. Then, with either, go to the town, sell loot, try the first dungeon, easily take everything out, including boss lots of levels ahead of me, open door to skeleton warrior, die. Rinse repeat with new character over and over again. Gets very very tedious.

[Cogwheel]

...Maybe that's something to do with your playstyle or being new to the game? I don't mean to be rude, I just barely recognise most of the issues you're referring to.

Still, if it's not to your liking, it might be best to cut your losses and pick another game you actually like.

[Beige Dragon]

...Maybe that's something to do with your playstyle or being new to the game? I don't mean to be rude, I just barely recognise most of the issues you're referring to.

Still, if it's not to your liking, it might be best to cut your losses and pick another game you actually like.

I dunno, I guess the game just doesn't click with my style. I don't mind you being rude, if its called for.

[nooblade]

It does seem to me that there's a bunch of tedium at the start of the game. I wish I could try the first bunch of dungeons compressed into maybe two places, and I think I will experiment with just skipping the rest of those places. That or just play on nightmare, some people think it's workable. Also the early levels are often non-decisions where you want one point in some things, ignore others, and pump up your useful skill, all based on what the class/race you picked is good at. More often you'll look at items and decide what to use, but that can be simple too. It's a big game, would be a task to change it now.

One bit of advice for you since you seem to be like me: try auto-explore ("Z" key) and maybe get used to hotkey-attacks autotargeting the boring enemies. It makes boring things go faster.

[Eurus]

I re-downloaded this game to give it a try again, a Higher Cursed. Got brutally two-shotted by an thief on level one of the trollmire. Tried again, a skeleton reaver. Forgot how nasty the bone golem can be. Ah, the memories. :smallamused:

[Cogwheel]

I re-downloaded this game to give it a try again, a Higher Cursed. Got brutally two-shotted by an thief on level one of the trollmire. Tried again, a skeleton reaver. Forgot how nasty the bone golem can be. Ah, the memories. :smallamused:

The bone golem is really nasty and the reaver early game is not a pleasant one.

Also why would you ever not make your Cursed a Cornac.


Oh, check your PMs in a moment.

[Knaight]

I guess it's mostly that they have a lot of "shoot that there guy", repeatedly. That, and they shoot fast but deal limited damage compared to other ranged attack classes, so every little fight takes a fair bit longer to finish. It gets a bit tiresome.

Upcoming patch makes them a bit less boring. Still only managed to play as far as L30.

I've found that things go pretty quickly, but then, my style consists entirely of cranking damage up to ludicrous levels. Level 5 Aim, level 5 Bow Mastery, Level 5 Steady Shot, and a category point behind Bow Mastery and Aim/Steady Shot does lots of damage plenty quickly.

That said, I'm enjoying the Temporal Warden more, with an unconventional build (probably, I don't really know what's conventional). Skeleton Temporal Warden is interesting.

[BladeofObliviom]

That said, I'm enjoying the Temporal Warden more, with an unconventional build (probably, I don't really know what's conventional). Skeleton Temporal Warden is interesting.

Skeleton Temporal Warden is surprisingly good, in spite of the xp penalty! You don't really need strength too much beyond a certain level with an archer build, and General Points are fairly plentiful for the Temporal Warden, so that ability that boosts Dexterity and Strength means you can split your stats a little bit better rather than suffering the hilarious MAD that Wardens usually get.

Plus Bone Shield makes you way, way less soft than other Warden Builds usually are, and Reassemble is a cheap healing ability that you pretty much don't get as a Temporal Warden without an infusion.

The free water breathing and immunities are just icing, really.

[nooblade]

The bone golem is really nasty and the reaver early game is not a pleasant one.

Actually I had a easy early game as a ghoul reaver. Corrupted strength is very good--you want one enemy adjacent to you and you want to cast a 1 turn spell every turn for the free attack. So even though you have a speed penalty you effectively take two actions.

You do a lot of damage going bone grab, rend, soul rot, bone spear, drain, soul rot, bone spear. Each spell you attack with both weapons. With ruin active at level you'll heal a bit too. And that's like level 4!

Also, for the purposes of corrupted strength, the light tree magic counts as spells for the free attack. I might want to make a cornac or something and use a movement infusion instead of leap though. Depends on how good gnaw is.

Takeaway for non-reavers -- don't stand next to reavers.

[Knaight]

Skeleton Temporal Warden is surprisingly good, in spite of the xp penalty! You don't really need strength too much beyond a certain level with an archer build, and General Points are fairly plentiful for the Temporal Warden, so that ability that boosts Dexterity and Strength means you can split your stats a little bit better rather than suffering the hilarious MAD that Wardens usually get.

Plus Bone Shield makes you way, way less soft than other Warden Builds usually are, and Reassemble is a cheap healing ability that you pretty much don't get as a Temporal Warden without an infusion.

The free water breathing and immunities are just icing, really.

That's pretty much what I've been finding. Bone Shield is good stuff, Reassemble is good stuff, etc. I've been a little strapped on general points though, but the character isn't exactly high level yet. It has been working though - I've only died once, and that was due to a fight that I got away from, reentered trying to win, fled from again, then came back to a third time, knowing full well about the abilities the enemy in question had regarding lock downs. Basically, I was being stupid and careless, and lost because of it, which I really have no issue with.

[Cogwheel]

Actually I had a easy early game as a ghoul reaver. Corrupted strength is very good--you want one enemy adjacent to you and you want to cast a 1 turn spell every turn for the free attack. So even though you have a speed penalty you effectively take two actions.

You do a lot of damage going bone grab, rend, soul rot, bone spear, drain, soul rot, bone spear. Each spell you attack with both weapons. With ruin active at level you'll heal a bit too. And that's like level 4!

Also, for the purposes of corrupted strength, the light tree magic counts as spells for the free attack. I might want to make a cornac or something and use a movement infusion instead of leap though. Depends on how good gnaw is.

Takeaway for non-reavers -- don't stand next to reavers.

Oh, certainly. I just meant the very early game, and specifically as a skeleton, where you're expected to deal with the bone golem at... what, level 2? It can get ugly.

Also, yeah light magic tree is great, and if you have even the slightest magic score, you should have it. Or if you're undead.

[Knaight]

I have to say, the danger of Adventuring Parties seems to be overstated around here. Yeah, they're annoying, but Zigur patrols have them outclassed, and Human Patrols are just ridiculous. I haven't even seen Halfling patrols, and I suspect they are yet worse.

[BladeofObliviom]

I have to say, the danger of Adventuring Parties seems to be overstated around here. Yeah, they're annoying, but Zigur patrols have them outclassed, and Human Patrols are just ridiculous. I haven't even seen Halfling patrols, and I suspect they are yet worse.

...Actually, I find Zigur Patrols to be fairly pathetic. I actually hunt them down for their loot sometimes. I can't say I've encountered Human or Halfling Patrols as hostile, though. Did you take off the Cloak of Deception while playing Undead or something?

Adventuring Parties, on the other hand, like to send casters at you in threes. If you aren't running Antimagic and don't have Epix Loot yet, you're usually fairly lucky to survive.

[Mewtarthio]

Allied Patrols will turn hostile if you forget your Cloak of Deception. They'll also act like Orc Patrols, relentlessly pursuing you across Maj'Eyal until they catch you and kill you. Also, if you do fight them, you'll find that the arena is the size of the Orc Patrol ambush arena, rather than the larger arena that most Maj'Eyal ambushes take place in. And there are more NPCs in an Allied Patrol than in an Adventurer Party or Zigur Patrol.

Luckily, they only attack if you forget your Cloak of Deception, and you can dive into the nearest zone entrance and re-equip it if you see them charging at you.

[BladeofObliviom]

Allied Patrols will turn hostile if you forget your Cloak of Deception. They'll also act like Orc Patrols, relentlessly pursuing you across Maj'Eyal until they catch you and kill you. Also, if you do fight them, you'll find that the arena is the size of the Orc Patrol ambush arena, rather than the larger arena that most Maj'Eyal ambushes take place in. And there are more NPCs in an Allied Patrol than in an Adventurer Party or Zigur Patrol.

Luckily, they only attack if you forget your Cloak of Deception, and you can dive into the nearest zone entrance and re-equip it if you see them charging at you.

Huh, that's kind of what I figured. Sounds nasty though.



So, guys! I got a really weird bug in one of my games. It's not game-breaking, but does take out quite a lot of the game's challenge.

One of my characters somehow picked up a seemingly permanent positive effect called "Protected by the Eidolon" or something like that, and now he's almost literally invincible. Nothing can deal damage to him except damage reflection, pretty much.

It happened with a Thaloren Cursed after I died due to a poor strategic choice in the Tranquil Meadow quest, but I came back to life because I drank the Blood of Life from an earlier dungeon.

So, really, I have two questions:

1) Who the hell is the Eidolon? The thumbnail has a picture of something that looks vaguely like the Transcendent One from Planescape: Torment, but I dunno if that's something from later in the plot or what.

2) What the hell? You know, in general. It feels like cheating to actually win the game this way, honestly. I charged through Dreadfell to test it out, very thoroughly, and got out literally without having lost a single point of health.

[nooblade]

That sounds sort of game-breaking. For that particular character at least.


Oh, certainly. I just meant the very early game, and specifically as a skeleton, where you're expected to deal with the bone golem at... what, level 2? It can get ugly.

I think on one or two characters I ignored the bone golem, left for Trollmire, and started normally there.

[Cogwheel]

Snip

The Eidolon is a nice man in space who will bring you back to life on Adventure mode. You can't die while on his plane.

But yeah that's a huge glitch.



Allied Patrols will turn hostile if you forget your Cloak of Deception. They'll also act like Orc Patrols, relentlessly pursuing you across Maj'Eyal until they catch you and kill you. Also, if you do fight them, you'll find that the arena is the size of the Orc Patrol ambush arena, rather than the larger arena that most Maj'Eyal ambushes take place in. And there are more NPCs in an Allied Patrol than in an Adventurer Party or Zigur Patrol.

Luckily, they only attack if you forget your Cloak of Deception, and you can dive into the nearest zone entrance and re-equip it if you see them charging at you.

You can switch cloaks on the world map, at least in the latest beta. And apparently Maj'Eyal's police force/army/whatever consists entirely of orcs?

Sort of a relief. And here I assumed they were just all massive racists.

[nooblade]

Hey! Listen! There's a version 1.0.5 out.

Looks like some UI improvements and balancing and fixing things. I might even like the reorganized game logs. And it sounds like some of you have been playing this for a while actually.

By the way, I'm trying this on an old modem. Does anyone know what port ID settings the online bits use?
--Learned something new today! "netstat -at". Ports are TCP 2257-2258.

[Cogwheel]

Hey! Listen! There's a version 1.0.5 out.

Looks like some UI improvements and balancing and fixing things. I might even like the reorganized game logs. And it sounds like some of you have been playing this for a while actually.

By the way, I'm trying this on an old modem. Does anyone know what port ID settings the online bits use?
--Learned something new today! "netstat -at". Ports are TCP 2257-2258.

Haven't a clue, sorry.

Thanks for the heads up, though. Rolaran linked the beta a while back, and I've been hammering away at that, but I'll grab this soon.

[Todasmile]

Does anyone know what the "infinite scaling" thing means?

[Cogwheel]

Does anyone know what the "infinite scaling" thing means?

No idea! Sounds rather alarming, though.

[Knaight]

Does anyone know what the "infinite scaling" thing means?

I'm guessing it means that skills are no longer capped at 5 points, but instead follow some sort of formula wherein the input value is restricted to any non-negative integer (even if, in practice, that number is effectively capped below 100). On the other hand, that seems like a really questionable idea. On the other-other hand, with ability restrictions being what they are the min-maxing is likely constrained decently.

[Cogwheel]

I'm guessing it means that skills are no longer capped at 5 points, but instead follow some sort of formula wherein the input value is restricted to any non-negative integer (even if, in practice, that number is effectively capped below 100). On the other hand, that seems like a really questionable idea. On the other-other hand, with ability restrictions being what they are the min-maxing is likely constrained decently.

In the beta, everything was still capped at 5 points, so... I don't know. Might be a modding thing?

Edit: Went and asked the IRC channel. It's altered scaling above rank 5. However, only monsters and Infinite Dungeon characters can go above rank 5 anyway, so it's moot for the average PC.

[BladeofObliviom]

It's likely referring to the effective talent level giving better increased benefits when higher than x1.00.

[Knaight]

In the beta, everything was still capped at 5 points, so... I don't know. Might be a modding thing?

Edit: Went and asked the IRC channel. It's altered scaling above rank 5. However, only monsters and Infinite Dungeon characters can go above rank 5 anyway, so it's moot for the average PC.

It doesn't seem moot when you're getting hit by it. Some sort of passive at, say, 8 or 9 that drags the damage of everything up could cause problems, particularly on a spell caster.


It's likely referring to the effective talent level giving better increased benefits when higher than x1.00.

This already happens, though only to certain traits.

[Cogwheel]

It doesn't seem moot when you're getting hit by it. Some sort of passive at, say, 8 or 9 that drags the damage of everything up could cause problems, particularly on a spell caster.



This already happens, though only to certain traits.

Okay, fair. Rares are scarier. That sure was necessary.

Then again, alchemist buffs. Sometimes these patches take odd directions.

[Todasmile]

Okay, fair. Rares are scarier. That sure was necessary.

Then again, alchemist buffs. Sometimes these patches take odd directions.

I love how the duration of Combo Points was increased but they are still no more useful than they ever were. A Striking Brawler was never going to have the combo reset anyways - the CD on Double Strikes is too low.

Although now I'm starting to wonder at the utility of a good high-level uppercut. I have seen the stun duration reach strangely high levels after one or two points of investment - a potential 15 or 16 round Stun and the high damage potential of Haymaker COULD make a more Combo-Point-oriented build more useful.

I'm also quite interested in the effects that the accuracy bonuses will have on certain talents and builds. For example, Perfect Strike isn't just an attack which will surely hit now - it's also a very decent increase to Critical Chance or Damage or something depending on your weapon.

[Cogwheel]

I love how the duration of Combo Points was increased but they are still no more useful than they ever were. A Striking Brawler was never going to have the combo reset anyways - the CD on Double Strikes is too low.

Although now I'm starting to wonder at the utility of a good high-level uppercut. I have seen the stun duration reach strangely high levels after one or two points of investment - a potential 15 or 16 round Stun and the high damage potential of Haymaker COULD make a more Combo-Point-oriented build more useful.

Dead honest, I do not have the faintest idea of how brawlers function.

[Todasmile]

Dead honest, I do not have the faintest idea of how brawlers function.

You die fifty times getting a character to level 10 and then die again to something else once you get there.

Then you go play an Alchemist.

[Cogwheel]

You die fifty times getting a character to level 10 and then die again to something else once you get there.

Then you go play an Alchemist.

Yeah, that's about the impression I got.

[nooblade]

Does anyone know what the "infinite scaling" thing means?

Short bit in the video said that talents go to 100? I think it's for the infinite dungeon, which I never play (hear it's pretty unfair).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X1HqYjPc1E

[Wookieetank]

Short bit in the video said that talents go to 100? I think it's for the infinite dungeon, which I never play (hear it's pretty unfair).


A roguelike that is unfair? That's absurd, whoever hear of such a thing... :smalltongue:

[Mewtarthio]

It's likely referring to the effective talent level giving better increased benefits when higher than x1.00.

Just the opposite, actually. "Infinite Scaling" means the talents are set to scale to arbitrarily high values. They are therefore given more reasonable diminishing returns. Talents that used to scale linearly now have a limit which they approach asymptotically. This has only a negligible effect for talent levels 1-5, but apparently it makes the deepest levels of the ID much more reasonable.

Not sure what reasonable people are doing in the deepest levels of the ID in the first place, but they're going to be happier there.

[Theoboldi]

You know, I really wish I knew how to build and play Mindslayers. They look so cool, yet I always get them killed off in the first dungeon.

On another note, I'm really liking some of graphical updates that came with the new version. Aiming alchemist bombs now looks like I'm preparing for an air-strike, which is rather fun. Not to mention that I really want to try that drolem thingy, whatever it is.
Also, saving doesn't interrupt gameplay as much anymore. Really like that.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

A tip for mindslayers. Invest heavily in those shield talents and invest heavily in +HP gear.

[Theoboldi]

A tip for mindslayers. Invest heavily in those shield talents and invest heavily in +HP gear.

I figured something along those lines. Though I'm still not quite enitrely sure what to put my general points into. All of this stuff looks useful. Sigh.

[Worira]

When I played my mindslayer, I focused everything on mindlash with conduit while triple-wielding mindstars. I gather they've nerfed that since, though.

EDIT: Oh, the shield talents are amazing, yes.

[Theoboldi]

When I played my mindslayer, I focused everything on mindlash with conduit while triple-wielding mindstars. I gather they've nerfed that since, though.

EDIT: Oh, the shield talents are amazing, yes.

I find it strangely enticing when a class only is actually good when you play it completly counter-intuitively to what its starting gear makes it look like. It's like a tiny puzzle that you have to figure out to play something really cool.

Too bad that the more visually awesome of the ways you can play one (two-handed weapon) seems rather sub-par, though. That's what brought me to the class in the first place. A non-magical, more defensive arcane blade? Yes please!

[Todasmile]

Is anyone else experiencing stability problems after the latest patch? No less than four times today has my game closed without warning.

[Cogwheel]

Is anyone else experiencing stability problems after the latest patch? No less than four times today has my game closed without warning.

You know, this was just what ToME did for such a long time, until the last two patches or so fixed it. Sorry to hear it's back.

[Reynard]

I hate Volcano Daikara, not for being hard, but for being laggy as all hell.

Has anyone here ever won as a Bulwark? If so, how? Getting insanely lucky on drops and grinding borderline excessive amounts of adventurer parties for XP?

[Cogwheel]

I hate Volcano Daikara, not for being hard, but for being laggy as all hell.

Has anyone here ever won as a Bulwark? If so, how? Getting insanely lucky on drops and grinding borderline excessive amounts of adventurer parties for XP?

I would assume a barrel of resistances. Steamroller might help too, later on? Or one of the block talents.

Also, most of the game is horribly laggy, so I kind of got used to it. Shouldn't be that way, though.

[Todasmile]

I would assume a barrel of resistances. Steamroller might help too, later on? Or one of the block talents.

Also, most of the game is horribly laggy, so I kind of got used to it. Shouldn't be that way, though.

Clearly, grab both of the Block prodigies, get the highest Block shield you can, Fungus up, and bore every enemy in the game to death.

[lord_khaine]

Any advice on actually saving that guy you need to keep alive for unlocking Mindblade?
He seems to blow up rather fast.

[lesser_minion]

Any advice on actually saving that guy you need to keep alive for unlocking Mindblade?
He seems to blow up rather fast.

If you're talking about trying to do it as a yeek, my understanding is that you don't have to do it immediately -- if you use the rod to get out of the ruins straight away, that fight won't start until you return at much higher level.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

When you enter halfling ruins, use the rod of recall right away. Grind up to level 20ish and come back. Proceed to 2shot the boss.

[Generic Mook]

I won a few times on roguelike, including nightmare. I haven't played in awhile. I'm too used to crawl's pacing.

Nightmare is brutal. It starts off slightly harder than normal, then halfway through the talent scaling goes off the rails. Most enemies can kill you in 1-2 turns, effects last for dozens of turns, and everyone is 30-50 levels higher than you.


I hate Volcano Daikara, not for being hard, but for being laggy as all hell.

Has anyone here ever won as a Bulwark? If so, how? Getting insanely lucky on drops and grinding borderline excessive amounts of adventurer parties for XP?

Daikara has always been laggy. It gets much, much worse in the final dungeon.

Max out battle tactics and shield talents. You're a tank that gets a free movement infusion every time you kill something.

[Cogwheel]

Clearly, grab both of the Block prodigies, get the highest Block shield you can, Fungus up, and bore every enemy in the game to death.

Hey, to be fair, the shield attack talents can hit really hard. Counterstrike-Assault will splatter a lot of enemies.


I won a few times on roguelike, including nightmare. I haven't played in awhile. I'm too used to crawl's pacing.

...You frighten me. I've got about 15 wins under my belt, but they're all Normal-Adventure.



Max out battle tactics and shield talents. You're a tank that gets a free movement infusion every time you kill something.

Solid advice. That sprint is really helpful.


Any advice on actually saving that guy you need to keep alive for unlocking Mindblade?
He seems to blow up rather fast.

Kill Subject Z really quickly and hope for the best? CC him?

Another useful trick is to Phase Door either Subject Z or the Yeek away really quickly.

[Knaight]

Kill Subject Z really quickly and hope for the best? CC him?

That's my plan this time. I've unlocked the Skeleton, both Celestial classes, and a number of other things, but the Yeek keeps getting killed before I can save him. In one case this was my own stupid fault (I read him as an enemy and killed him), in another it was compliments of Subject Z, in yet another I don't know what happened, but I might have registered as an enemy due to being a skeleton without a cloak of concealment on.

[Mewtarthio]

If you're coming in from the top of the dungeon, just play an Archmage and Teleport the Wayist away as soon as you open the door. That's by far the easiest way to save the Yeek.

Alternatively, play an Alchemist and level up Stone Touch so you can petrify Z on round one and pulverize him with an acid bomb on round two. It's nowhere near as reliable, but it's quite satisfying when it works.

[lord_khaine]

If you're talking about trying to do it as a yeek, my understanding is that you don't have to do it immediately -- if you use the rod to get out of the ruins straight away, that fight won't start until you return at much higher level.

Dam that sounds like a nice and simple suggestion, thank you for that :)

I guess i just need to find a nice simple pick for a Yeek that isnt to weak :P

[Knaight]

Whelp. Just got my level 37 archer killed for good, after a huge number of unlocks, achievements, etc. Apparently there are pedestals that react to the Orb of Command, and they bring problems. Also, the orc Pride that leads into the slime tunnels is a horrible, horrible place. Specifically, the barracks between levels.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

All the wilder classes work well enough as Yeek. Solipsist isn't bad either, just remember that if you sleep spell is contagious, you can accidently hurt friendlies and even make them aggro.

[lord_khaine]

Ok thanks, got to admit i was considering the easy solution myself, and just picking an Alchemist :P

But yeah orc prides are horrible places, i lost my highest level hero yet just trying to enter one of those dam forts.

[Cogwheel]

Whelp. Just got my level 37 archer killed for good, after a huge number of unlocks, achievements, etc. Apparently there are pedestals that react to the Orb of Command, and they bring problems. Also, the orc Pride that leads into the slime tunnels is a horrible, horrible place. Specifically, the barracks between levels.

You're meant to go there

After beating all the orc prides. It's the way into the final dungeon.

[Knaight]

You're meant to go there

After beating all the orc prides. It's the way into the final dungeon.

I took it at the second orc pride, and managed to handle things fairly well. Right up until the point where I inadvertently summoned something horrific. Though there were some close calls en-route, mostly on account of those awful barracks and the boss of the pride in question.

On an unrelated note, is there a way to pull achievements from a computer to an account? I have a bunch that don't show up, because I got them then made an account, which is somewhat irritating. Particularly as some of them are genuinely difficult to get (e.g. killing an enemy at 1 HP).


All the wilder classes work well enough as Yeek. Solipsist isn't bad either, just remember that if you sleep spell is contagious, you can accidently hurt friendlies and even make them aggro.
I tried a Yeek Anorithil, and that actually worked really well. You get Barrier pretty quickly, which is incredibly helpful, you get high damage multi-target attacks, and you get healing above and beyond that provided by infusions, which is also helpful when your HP total isn't exactly the most impressive of things.

[Cogwheel]

I took it at the second orc pride, and managed to handle things fairly well. Right up until the point where I inadvertently summoned something horrific. Though there were some close calls en-route, mostly on account of those awful barracks and the boss of the pride in question.

The slime tunnels aren't too bad outside of summons, no.


On an unrelated note, is there a way to pull achievements from a computer to an account? I have a bunch that don't show up, because I got them then made an account, which is somewhat irritating. Particularly as some of them are genuinely difficult to get (e.g. killing an enemy at 1 HP).

No clue. Never cared about achievements, myself. I will point out, though, that the 1 HP one is really easy to get with a heroism infusion or Blurred Mortality.


I tried a Yeek Anorithil, and that actually worked really well. You get Barrier pretty quickly, which is incredibly helpful, you get high damage multi-target attacks, and you get healing above and beyond that provided by infusions, which is also helpful when your HP total isn't exactly the most impressive of things.

...Huh. Never did think of that. I'll have to remember that trick.

[Knaight]

No clue. Never cared about achievements, myself. I will point out, though, that the 1 HP one is really easy to get with a heroism infusion or Blurred Mortality.

Is it 1 HP, or under 1 HP? If it's the second, yeah, no biggie.

[Todasmile]

Just finished a run as a Dwarf Mindslayer dual-wielding mindstars and with a giant floating battleaxe floating above its head. Died to the Room of Death, but I did take out three of the Wyrms.

Managed to unlock:

-Skeleton
-Anorithil
-Sun Paladin
-Doomed

All in all? Really good run.

[Knaight]

Just finished a run as a Dwarf Mindslayer dual-wielding mindstars and with a giant floating battleaxe floating above its head. Died to the Room of Death, but I did take out three of the Wyrms.

Managed to unlock:

-Skeleton
-Anorithil
-Sun Paladin
-Doomed

All in all? Really good run.

That's not a bad run at all. Particularly the doomed, as getting that seems difficult - though that might just be because I'm consistently good at getting stupidly high damage attacks, that exceed my HP totals. Having opponents swap positions with me nearly killed me multiple times as my Dwarven Slinger (Archer class) and finished the job once (from full HP too).

[Cogwheel]

Is it 1 HP, or under 1 HP? If it's the second, yeah, no biggie.

It says 1 HP. It means under 1 HP.

[Knaight]

It says 1 HP. It means under 1 HP.

Well, that just moved to really easy. I actually got it at exactly 1 last time - while recovering from negatives with Heroism on.

On an unrelated note - Uniques have an annoying tendency to be difficult, and I'm thinking the farportal needs to be left to higher levels. Sure, it scales, but it also causes problems.

[nooblade]

I remember my most terrifying farportal was against some shadowblade doing an "invincibility-normal attack" move. I think it was shadow veil? Might try to run one of those someday, dunno what race. It would probably have to be Thalore, to help against spellcasters.


Just finished a run as a Dwarf Mindslayer dual-wielding mindstars and with a giant floating battleaxe floating above its head. Died to the Room of Death, but I did take out three of the Wyrms.

I vaguely remember that mindslayers with telekinetic bows were good/interesting for some reason, silly as it sounds.

One thing I'm curious about -- some people say that max hp isn't so important once you can avoid the right amount of burst damage. Not that I'm going for Yeek archmage.

[Generic Mook]

Mindslayers make decent antimagic casters. A maxed out mindlash can get a cooldown of 0 and deals around 2k damage. With speed boosting gear you can kill most enemies before they can act. It makes for a very easy final battle.



One thing I'm curious about -- some people say that max hp isn't so important once you can avoid the right amount of burst damage. Not that I'm going for Yeek archmage.

More HP is always nice. I wouldn't want to enter the final battle with less than 1000 HP. Archmages have overpowered shields, so they can handle crazy burst damage from things that would outright kill most classes (ex: nightmare! Atamathon).

[BladeofObliviom]

Finally got a character to the Far East again, and did things in a not-stupid order this time!

Except for the Vor Armory. That was stupid.


I don't usually take vaults too seriously, I'll be honest here. Mostly because I genuinely don't have too much trouble with them.

Thus it was a bit of a surprise when I opened a door and saw a truly absurd number of Drakes and Hatchlings, along with 7, and I quote here "Overpowered Greater Multi-Hued Wyrm"s. Each at Level 100+.

Holy freaking crap. It's like Angband all over again.

The strange part is that I survived that initial encounter somehow and then managed to kill all of them via kiting, a teleport rune, and sending numerous Golems off to their gruesome deaths.

[Cogwheel]

Finally got a character to the Far East again, and did things in a not-stupid order this time!

Except for the Vor Armory. That was stupid.


I don't usually take vaults too seriously, I'll be honest here. Mostly because I genuinely don't have too much trouble with them.

Thus it was a bit of a surprise when I opened a door and saw a truly absurd number of Drakes and Hatchlings, along with 7, and I quote here "Overpowered Greater Multi-Hued Wyrm"s. Each at Level 100+.

Holy freaking crap. It's like Angband all over again.

The strange part is that I survived that initial encounter somehow and then managed to kill all of them via kiting, a teleport rune, and sending numerous Golems off to their gruesome deaths.



That vault is always, always the same, content-wise. Personally, I find it hilarious.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

That's how my summoner cleared that room and got the lousy achievement :smallbiggrin:

[Mewtarthio]

Finally got a character to the Far East again, and did things in a not-stupid order this time!

Except for the Vor Armory. That was stupid.


I don't usually take vaults too seriously, I'll be honest here. Mostly because I genuinely don't have too much trouble with them.

Thus it was a bit of a surprise when I opened a door and saw a truly absurd number of Drakes and Hatchlings, along with 7, and I quote here "Overpowered Greater Multi-Hued Wyrm"s. Each at Level 100+.

Holy freaking crap. It's like Angband all over again.

The strange part is that I survived that initial encounter somehow and then managed to kill all of them via kiting, a teleport rune, and sending numerous Golems off to their gruesome deaths.


Excuse me, I need to get a drink of water so I can cough and sputter appropriately.

You... you opened the Room of Death on your first time East, and not only stood and fought, but won?!

[BladeofObliviom]

That vault is always, always the same, content-wise. Personally, I find it hilarious.


That's how my summoner cleared that room and got the lousy achievement :smallbiggrin:


Excuse me, I need to get a drink of water so I can cough and sputter appropriately.

You... you opened the Room of Death on your first time East, and not only stood and fought, but won?!


Oh, that's an established thing that happens every time? I suppose that explains the achievements.

And to be fair, I didn't really stand and fight. Alchemists aren't exactly squishy, but they're a little bit too much so for that.

I ran through the nearest door immediately and ordered my Golem to be a distraction so I could escape. And then I turned on my Regen rune and threw Bombs through the door blindly until one of the Wyrms actually entered my sight.

At that point, I jumped away with my teleport rune to somewhere else, where I hid, regenerated my health, and used my copious supply of Alchemist Gems, Supercharge Golem, and Refit Golem to build myself a new meatshield.

From there, I crept back into the building and peeked through doors until I saw one of the monsters (Or more accurately, I went blind because those things just love doing that the second you appear to them) and then I stepped aside to let my Golem through and kept chucking bombs in there until it appeared in my vision again.

I had a Wild Infusion to help with the Blindness, which helped.

Anyway, rinse and repeat a few dozen times, coaxing away one Wyrm at a time to make things more manageable, and you have a cleared room of death.

It should be noted that I'd be dead about a dozen times over if it weren't for Draconic Body and Golem Spam.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I beat it on my first try as well with my summoner. Just stood outside the area and summoned my stone golem. Then controlled him and used his cheat death skill to get a round or 2 of melee in. Eventually they all died. :smallbiggrin:

[nooblade]

Yup, I did it too as an alchemist, a Shaloren one that time. Every time I attacked something, it was a crit. Alchemists are just overpowered IMHO. I really think this game is about reaching some amount of overpower and riding it as far as it goes. PVP would be terrible in harshness.

As much as I'd like to play this game, the last three times I've tried have ended in bugs. Guh.

[Todasmile]

Hey, they changed how the Cursed Aura tree works.

Talent levels above 5 now grant extra bonuses - you can affect jewelry, tools, ammo, and for Dark Gifts, you get a flat increase to all your curses for each level it is above 5.

So naturally I will be pumping all of the mastery points into it.

[Mewtarthio]

The newly-buffed Yeek Dominant Will is exactly as ridiculous as it sounds, by the way. You can now basically one-shot elite horrors and greater demons and even adventurers as an instant action. I'm not sure how often it gets resisted on Nightmare, but on Normal, it's pretty consistent.

[Cogwheel]

The newly-buffed Yeek Dominant Will is exactly as ridiculous as it sounds, by the way. You can now basically one-shot elite horrors and greater demons and even adventurers as an instant action. I'm not sure how often it gets resisted on Nightmare, but on Normal, it's pretty consistent.

Welp.

Yeek are more potentially broken than ever, then!

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I just unlocked the Paradox Mage class. Only the Maurader left to unlock.

Also holy crap that bow is nice. A tier 5 bow from a tier 2 zone!?

[Cogwheel]

I just unlocked the Paradox Mage class. Only the Maurader left to unlock.

Also holy crap that bow is nice. A tier 5 bow from a tier 2 zone!?

It shots good, yes. This is why TWs are the best archers. Whether the new archer-only tree and poison/traps change this remains to be seen.

Also have fun with Paradox Mage. It's not that powerful for a caster but it's great fun.

[Lighturtle]

"CURSE_OF_SHROUDS",
#CRIMSON#Penalty: #WHITE#Shroud of Weakness: Small chance of becoming enveloped in a Shroud of Weakness (reduces damage dealt by %d%%) for 4 turns.
#CRIMSON#Level 1: %sNightwalker: %+d Darkness Resistance, %+d%% Max Darkness Resistance, %+d See Invisible
#CRIMSON#Level 2: %s%+d Luck, %+d Constitution
#CRIMSON#Level 3: %sShroud of Passing: Your form seems to fade as you move, reducing all damage taken by %d%% for 1 turn after movement.
#CRIMSON#Level 4: %sShroud of Death: The power of every kill seems to envelop you like a shroud, reducing all damage taken by %d%% for 3 turns.]])

Isn't Curse of Shroud massively overpowered? My level 10 cornac doomed put a cat points in the cursed items trees and now gains 50% to all res while moving (to every element AND +resist all) plus another 50% for 3 turns after killing something and 20 free Con and massive darkness resistances because why not.

So I just wander around with every resistance capped (and total immunity to darkness) while my shadows kill stuff. The big one threat is to get dazed or frozen and being unable to move but cursed form and infusions helps somewhat. Still, that's bloody insane. Add in deflection and antimagic shield when I get them and YEESH. Resolve is sadly not going to be very useful for resistance cap reasons. Oh well.

Compare to... I dunno, corpses, you get light when you kill something, a str bonus, and a chance to raise humanoids as ****ty ghouls. What is even the point?

By the way, the defiling touch description mentions levels up to 10. With my cat points the talents reach level 6, but there are plenty of interesting effects at higher levels. How do I into more category %? Never ever found items with bonuses to Cursed Aura in a lot of characters.

[Todasmile]

"CURSE_OF_SHROUDS",
#CRIMSON#Penalty: #WHITE#Shroud of Weakness: Small chance of becoming enveloped in a Shroud of Weakness (reduces damage dealt by %d%%) for 4 turns.
#CRIMSON#Level 1: %sNightwalker: %+d Darkness Resistance, %+d%% Max Darkness Resistance, %+d See Invisible
#CRIMSON#Level 2: %s%+d Luck, %+d Constitution
#CRIMSON#Level 3: %sShroud of Passing: Your form seems to fade as you move, reducing all damage taken by %d%% for 1 turn after movement.
#CRIMSON#Level 4: %sShroud of Death: The power of every kill seems to envelop you like a shroud, reducing all damage taken by %d%% for 3 turns.]])

Isn't Curse of Shroud massively overpowered? My level 10 cornac doomed put a cat points in the cursed items trees and now gains 50% to all res while moving (to every element AND +resist all) plus another 50% for 3 turns after killing something and 20 free Con and massive darkness resistances because why not.

So I just wander around with every resistance capped (and total immunity to darkness) while my shadows kill stuff. The big one threat is to get dazed or frozen and being unable to move but cursed form and infusions helps somewhat. Still, that's bloody insane. Add in deflection and antimagic shield when I get them and YEESH. Resolve is sadly not going to be very useful for resistance cap reasons. Oh well.

Compare to... I dunno, corpses, you get light when you kill something, a str bonus, and a chance to raise humanoids as ****ty ghouls. What is even the point?

By the way, the defiling touch description mentions levels up to 10. With my cat points the talents reach level 6, but there are plenty of interesting effects at higher levels. How do I into more category %? Never ever found items with bonuses to Cursed Aura in a lot of characters.

I encountered the same problem, along with a few glitches.

Seems like when I got Cursed Aura to level 6, the Ring-cursing didn't activate. In addition, I never got Shroud of Death to work once - don't know why. But yeah, I think the bonuses from Curse of Shrouds are some of the better ones available. Maybe the best - its only real competition is Nightmares, and maybe Misfortune.

[Lighturtle]

Seems like when I got Cursed Aura to level 6, the Ring-cursing didn't activate.


Same here. 120% resistance to everything would have been nice on the character sheet, even with caps... Or maybe I would have liked to pick a more offensively oriented curse to go along with shroud, but that doesn't seem possible at the time.

[Todasmile]

The stability issues continue, but there might be a plausible excuse this time.

Through a convoluted series of events which caused me to be revived via Blood of Life after dying by changing my equipment from the transmogrification chest while descending a staircase, I was forced out of Dreadfell (The Eidolen said something about being unable to send me back to where I had came from. Also the background glitched and wasn't the normal Eidolen background). When I re-reached the 9th floor, it was entirely different from the 9th floor I had left. Also, the Master was nowhere to be seen, even after burrowing through several walls.

It's too bad. Unlocking Ghouls as well as Necromancers and Corrupters on this character would have been perfect.

[BladeofObliviom]

The stability issues continue, but there might be a plausible excuse this time.

Through a convoluted series of events which caused me to be revived via Blood of Life after dying by changing my equipment from the transmogrification chest while descending a staircase, I was forced out of Dreadfell (The Eidolen said something about being unable to send me back to where I had came from. Also the background glitched and wasn't the normal Eidolen background). When I re-reached the 9th floor, it was entirely different from the 9th floor I had left. Also, the Master was nowhere to be seen, even after burrowing through several walls.

It's too bad. Unlocking Ghouls as well as Necromancers and Corrupters on this character would have been perfect.

This is suspiciously similar to how my Cursed playthrough got ruined not that long ago. Though I ended up with an invincible character that I deleted due to boredom instead of a broken Dreadfell.

[Generic Mook]

...Who's Eidolen?

My level 29 brawler got killed in the armory. Honestly, that went better than expected.

[Cogwheel]

...Who's Eidolen?

My level 29 brawler got killed in the armory. Honestly, that went better than expected.

The Eidolon is a nice man who revives you when you die in adventurer... mode...

Hold the phone. You were where at level 29?

[Ailurus]

Just had a moment of extreme terror. Slowly working my way through a vault on Dreadfall level 5. The way the vault was set up, I was only encountering enemies one or two at a time, so my level 23 paladin was OK even though most of the vault enemies were level 42. But then I go to the next section of the vault... and find 2 level 55 elite greater multihued wyrms waiting there....

Fortunately my phase door rune took me clean out of the vault, and I was able to escape to dreadfall level 6 (I'd cleared the rest of the level already), but still. I'm scared to go back there.

[nooblade]

The Eidolon is a nice man who revives you when you die in adventurer... mode...

Hold the phone. You were where at level 29?

Yes that sounds scary. He must've cleared Dreadfell early-ish and gone straight to Vor Armory. Not that I know what order to do anything in the East, having only been there once or twice.

By the way, here's a highly amusing and spoilerific video of someone's reaction to the "proper" end of the dark crypt quest. Overall the video series quality is a little on the derp side if you ask me, but this one looks like it's going places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUWpk1UqkLc

[Theoboldi]

Volcano Daikara really is horribly buggy. I can barely go 5 tiles without the game completly glitching out and me having to restart. Very annoying. :smallannoyed:

ON a more positive note, though, I've been having some fun with summoners now. Mostly because they are terribly overpowered. I'm barely even getting scratched most of the time, while my summons tear everything apart. Maybe I'll even survive into the east this time around.

Edit: Nevermind. I died to boss of Daikara when I had to up against him a second time, because the game crashed after I had (nearly, he was at about 9% health and surrounded by my summons) defeated him for the first time. I really don't like fiery Daikara. Not at all.

[Eurus]

Yes that sounds scary. He must've cleared Dreadfell early-ish and gone straight to Vor Armory. Not that I know what order to do anything in the East, having only been there once or twice.

By the way, here's a highly amusing and spoilerific video of someone's reaction to the "proper" end of the dark crypt quest. Overall the video series quality is a little on the derp side if you ask me, but this one looks like it's going places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUWpk1UqkLc

Wow. I've never actually seen that part, it's pretty hilarious.

[Generic Mook]

Yeah, got bored, so it turned into a suicide run.


Yes that sounds scary. He must've cleared Dreadfell early-ish and gone straight to Vor Armory. Not that I know what order to do anything in the East, having only been there once or twice.

By the way, here's a highly amusing and spoilerific video of someone's reaction to the "proper" end of the dark crypt quest. Overall the video series quality is a little on the derp side if you ask me, but this one looks like it's going places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUWpk1UqkLc

Your redheaded waifu loves you regardless of your gender, species or sanity. And you can turn your creepy butler into a redheaded waifu too. All we need now is a Linaniil romance sidequest.

[Cogwheel]

I have to wonder if "I am no demon worshiper" is an available dialogue option for corrupters.