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View Full Version : At What Level Can a Fighter Menace a Wizard?



MrNexx
2007-01-05, 05:18 PM
Ok, simple exercise. You have a relatively balanced party of median level (about 9-11), including requisite CoDzilla and Firk-Ding-Blasted Batman. The opposition is led by an Epic Warrior-Type; his forces include nothing more potent than half-casters, and they're all cohort range for the PCs.

Does this really threaten the party? Does the BBEG, himself, even remotely threaten the party?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 05:30 PM
9-11? Sure, as long as the party doesn't get cheesy in a way the Epic Warrior-Type hasn't geared himself up against.

The_Werebear
2007-01-05, 05:34 PM
Yes, but the party has multiple ways to work around it.

It also depends on how many people the BBEG has assaulting them, if he himself is leading it, and how he chose to equip himself.

Yes and no pretty much. It comes down to what each person has prepared for the other.

Pegasos989
2007-01-05, 05:35 PM
I would say that the epic warrior type would kick their asses. At level 30, fighter's base will save is +10, assume steadfast determination, +12 con mod and +5 cloack of resistance (might be a lot higher but I haven't ever actually played epic so I will stay in what I know to be possible in the core), so his will save would be +27, possibly a lot more. Wizard doesn't have forcecage -like spells or anything...

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 05:38 PM
Basically, the Warrior's gear matters. If he's kept his Dex at a nice 12 or 14 and isn't immune to exhaustion and ability damage, the wizard can one-shot him. It all comes down to whether he's taken the care to defend against everything the wizard could do, which *is* possible at those levels.

amanodel
2007-01-05, 05:39 PM
Sure it does. The BBEG warlord should have plenty warriors. A thousand goblin-esque and some troll-like. If the casters have to waist their best spells before facing the BBEG it's a big threat. If you feel like your party is munchkinned too much then simply use much more, and harder mosters. Two 9-11-ish casters can't do that much wrong.

Another way is to give a powerful ability to the warlord. You're the DM, you can say he aligned himself with demonic powers to gain SR 20. Or has an artifact binded to his sould which makes him immune to many spells.

A well-made DM twist can make everyone potentially deadly.

Errata
2007-01-05, 06:37 PM
The Warrior will be quite equipment dependent. At epic levels he could reasonably have access to everything he needs to wipe out the 11th level casters.

The problem is that if you give him all that equipment, then what happens when they defeat him? You probably don't want them to have that whole set of epic equipment. To keep the treasure for the encounter down to a reasonable level means that the warrior is not going to actually be able to be a fully equipped epic warrior, and will thus be less of a challenge than the level would imply.

One way to handle that would be to give him merely decent equipment (with one or two nice items appropriate for the party) plus some powerful potions and his followers some powerful buff scrolls (for example a scroll of spell resistance at some fairly high caster level). That way he could be respectably powerful for the fight, but if the PCs get ahold of the loot it won't be too ridiculously unbalanced. And you can always have some powerful equipment cursed in some way so that its effective but they can't really use it. At epic levels you have plenty of options for making him hard to affect with magic, and without debuffs he'll definitely be plenty challenging.

TheOOB
2007-01-05, 07:33 PM
Fighters tend to have poor reflex and will saves, along with very poor touch ACs. Unless the fighter has spent alot of resources (feats and money) on magical defense a wizard of any level would be quite capable of dealing with an equal level fighter in a fair fight with only a couple spells, very possibly even only one.

That doesn't mean non-casters cannot threaten casters. First of all, theres plenty of ways to increase your defense agient spells, SR is the obvious way, as is save and touch AC increases, but there are also many low-level spells and magic items that can cause huge problums for casters. For example and arrow with the silence spell cast on it and shot at the party from a stealth position can very easily lock down group of casters long enough for the warriors to move in and kill the low hp wizards, and even cheep items such as thunderstones can give warrior types a fighting chance.

If the players are using magic, and the enemy has any organization what so ever they will find ways to fight the magic.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-01-05, 08:02 PM
Stealth really is one of your best weapons against any caster types. If a few henchmen can suprise the party and get the casters grappled then they may have it in the bag. Also, a little obscuring mist can really mess up a caster, they can't target what they can't see! At epic levels, this guy could have half his followers equipped with Horns of Fog.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-05, 10:06 PM
Just have the fighter wear an antimagic field to battle. At epic level, he won't need gear to kill 9-11 levels, and once he closes to melee range, the PCs won't even have functioning magic gear.

Better yet, have him arm some of his troopss with contingent anti-magic fields that go off when they enter a grapple or make a touch attack. Then have them grapple the casters.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 10:22 PM
The right Wildshape could beat an epic fighter in an AMF; a druid can easily have a grapple check that beats a non-grapple-focused epic fighter
.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-05, 10:25 PM
Wild Shape is (Su), though, so its effect would be suppressed by the AMF.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 10:27 PM
Oh, hunh, so it is.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-05, 10:48 PM
A widened permanent AMF would really ruin the party's day.

Maybe put a few on tanglefoot bags, just for kicks.

MrNexx
2007-01-06, 02:45 AM
As I mentioned, this fighter has no spellcasters who are not half-casters, and they are cohort-level for the PCs. This severely limits his access to uber-magic-goodies.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-06, 03:04 AM
As I mentioned, this fighter has no spellcasters who are not half-casters, and they are cohort-level for the PCs. This severely limits his access to uber-magic-goodies.

Could he buy some?
Epics have lots of gold.

TheOOB
2007-01-06, 03:08 AM
Heck, a monk or fighter who manages to catch a wizard in a grapple during the suprise round can be a serious threat, unless the wizard has dimension door prepared.

Skyserpent
2007-01-06, 03:09 AM
Could he buy some?
Epics have lots of gold.

I'm guessing you're referring to "Magic Goodies" and I figure that he means "Spellcasting" not "Magic Equipment"

So I think he means he can only buy half-casters and only at cohort level. Whereas himself I figure he'd BETTER have all the magic gear he can attach onto his person...

oriong
2007-01-06, 03:09 AM
First of all, what IS the epic warrior's level? that's a fairly big issue.

second is this a 'two groups meet in the woods' style situation?

And he's limited to what his cohorts can make for him? that will severely suck simply because he'll be so far behind on even basic magic gear.

Probably the most powerful tool would actually be misinformation if he's got preparation time. For example if the guy spreads the rumor (or it is spread due to appearance or behavior) that he is undead, it'll be a nasty suprise when the party loaded for ghoul suddenly realizes he's perfectly human.

In a straightforward confrontation his biggest benefits are twofold:

1) massive bonuses, with moderate equipment and feats (combat expertise is probably a must) a true epic warrior can totally ignore anyone attempting to attack him in melee. this means that if anyone, cleric, fighter, rogue, etc. attempts to engage them he should ignore them and save them for later. His saves will also be high enough (even will and reflex) that most direct-effect spells will simply have no effect. Combat expertise (and perhaps a few other defenses) means that he can easily avoid many touch spells and still remain combat effective too.

2) epic feats, he can get around a lot of standard defenses with epic level feats, and use them to boost his already impressive combat abilities.

A good strategy is simply ignore the melee types, use a ranged weapon, and ready your action to plug the caster the first time he tries to pull off a spell, obviously he'll learn fast and try something new, so just use that as a way to get him to waste his first (and probably one of his most powerful) spells and then change strategy. even crossclass tumble is probably easily high enough to move through any melee toughs in your way, so your first desire is to get to him and then engage in melee. one full attack will kill him, more or less garunteed. then mop up the rest.

Your main concern are the few spells like touch of fatigue, or so on that allow no save, fortunately with your attack bonus even using a full combat expertis bonus is no problem. A few other feats or items to boost yoru touch AC and those spells probably won't be a major issue. if you've got the Spellcasting Harrier feat then definitely go for a reach weapon (and maybe an enlarge from your buddies) and you can get anyone attempting to cast a spell anywhere near you, and almost certianly disrupt it.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-06, 03:14 AM
Probably the most powerful tool would actually be misinformation if he's got preparation time. For example if the guy spreads the rumor (or it is spread due to appearance or behavior) that he is undead, it'll be a nasty suprise when the party loaded for ghoul suddenly realizes he's perfectly human.

That is perfectly nasty.
Love it.

Gralamin
2007-01-06, 03:19 AM
I would say that the epic warrior type would kick their asses. At level 30, fighter's base will save is +10, assume steadfast determination, +12 con mod and +5 cloack of resistance (might be a lot higher but I haven't ever actually played epic so I will stay in what I know to be possible in the core), so his will save would be +27, possibly a lot more. Wizard doesn't have forcecage -like spells or anything...
Why are you applying a Constitution modifier to a will save?


Could he buy some?
Epics have lots of gold.
He could also have Epic Leadership. Assuming a Charisma of 25 (to get the feat) and level 30, he'd have a score of 37, So he could have
a level 23 cohort half caster,
740 Level 1's,
74 level 2's
37 Level 3's
19 Level 4's
10 Level 5's
5 Level 6's
3 Level 7's
2 Level 8's
and 1 level 9.

Assuming he has a magic item allowing him to dimension lock a few people, he can just swarm them.
He could throw the Sheer Numbers at them, as they would eventually run out of spells.
In fact have a few high levels right by them so they can ready an action for to attack when someone starts casting a spell.

Tokiko Mima
2007-01-06, 03:28 AM
If this fighter has the Legendary Commander (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryCommander) feat, then sure.

1350 1st level archers (minimum for Legendary Commander) shooting at the PC's are going to hit at least 5% of the time, and more like 45% of the time for the unarmored wizard. That will do enough damage in a single round (68d8, average ~306+) to kill anyone in the party. A Wind Wall spell might forstall the inevitable, but when those archers close to melee, the party will be overwhelmed unless they find a way to escape.

Even solo, as long as the BBEG is appropriately geared for a character of his level, he will destroy the party. There's enough cheap magic items for sale to Epic characters to nullify almost any avenue of of attack possessed by level 9-11's. He might not be able to prevent their escape, but if they stayed and fought with him, they could not win.

He would hit the party's tank like he didn't have any armor at all (21+ BAB) and likely critical to high heaven. This all assumes he has covered his basic weaknesses, of course, with some Will and Reflex save boosting gear, freedom magic items, and something to handle flying mages. Which an Epic character would, naturally.

The only way they could win would be to exploit some trick that would kill anyone, like a maximized Shivertouch anti-dragon spell, or if the warrior was nerfed somehow and unable to cover his basic weaknesses.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-06, 03:41 AM
Hmm... speaking of spells that would kill anyone, could you instead have your 1350 followers stand in a circle, passing a quarterstaff to each other (dropping in the adjacent square as a free action), until the quarterstaff traversed enough distance within six seconds to accelerate it faster than the speed of light, giving it enough mass to turn into a black hole?

[edit]
No.
It'd have to be a readied action, which would take A LOT of followers.
5200 followers would get it going 2954 mph. That's a long way from light speed. Oh well.

Pegasos989
2007-01-06, 03:48 AM
Why are you applying a Constitution modifier to a will save?

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Steadfast_Determination,PH2

Gralamin
2007-01-06, 03:49 AM
If this fighter has the Legendary Commander (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryCommander) feat, then sure.

1350 1st level archers (minimum for Legendary Commander) shooting at the PC's are going to hit at least 5% of the time, and more like 45% of the time for the unarmored wizard. That will do enough damage in a single round (68d8, average ~306+) to kill anyone in the party. A Wind Wall spell might forstall the inevitable, but when those archers close to melee, the party will be overwhelmed unless they find a way to escape.

Even solo, as long as the BBEG is appropriately geared for a character of his level, he will destroy the party. There's enough cheap magic items for sale to Epic characters to nullify almost any avenue of of attack possessed by level 9-11's. He might not be able to prevent their escape, but if they stayed and fought with him, they could not win.

He would hit the party's tank like he didn't have any armor at all (21+ BAB) and likely critical to high heaven. This all assumes he has covered his basic weaknesses, of course, with some Will and Reflex save boosting gear, freedom magic items, and something to handle flying mages. Which an Epic character would, naturally.

The only way they could win would be to exploit some trick that would kill anyone, like a maximized Shivertouch anti-dragon spell, or if the warrior was nerfed somehow and unable to cover his basic weaknesses.

Actually I believe the minimum is 5200 level 1 followers (30 ranks in diplomacy = level 27, +7 from Cha 25 ([25-11]/2 = 7)

^ I never actually read that feat. Odd. Nice feat though.

Rikandur Azebol
2007-01-06, 04:19 AM
Will eat them. Prepare escspe options for the party. Or if it isn't "Fight of the Day" make villain afraid of something, let the party discover it before fight and sacer him out. Once. Since later he'll drink anti-fear potion. :smallsmile:

Dervag
2007-01-06, 07:30 AM
Fighters tend to have poor reflex and will saves, along with very poor touch ACs. Unless the fighter has spent alot of resources (feats and money) on magical defense a wizard of any level would be quite capable of dealing with an equal level fighter in a fair fight with only a couple spells, very possibly even only one.Of course, this fighter is approximately twice the casters' levels...

I think it's an evolutionary question. In a world where high-level casters are far more powerful than high-level warriors, any warrior who has survived to high level without strong caster support (like your BBEG) must have spent a lot of time and money optimizing his defenses against magical attack. Otherwise, some caster would probably have brought him down at some point.

That doesn't mean non-casters cannot threaten casters. First of all, theres plenty of ways to increase your defense agient spells, SR is the obvious way, as is save and touch AC increases, but there are also many low-level spells and magic items that can cause huge problums for casters. For example and arrow with the silence spell cast on it and shot at the party from a stealth position can very easily lock down group of casters long enough for the warriors to move in and kill the low hp wizards, and even cheep items such as thunderstones can give warrior types a fighting chance.

If the players are using magic, and the enemy has any organization what so ever they will find ways to fight the magic.[/QUOTE]

danielf
2007-01-06, 07:31 AM
infinite level

wizards are awesome

PinkysBrain
2007-01-06, 12:19 PM
As I mentioned, this fighter has no spellcasters who are not half-casters, and they are cohort-level for the PCs. This severely limits his access to uber-magic-goodies.
That's what Ye Old Magic Shoppes are for.

An epic fighter would probably win initiative and one shot one of the casters in the first round, then he would get force caged ... he'd use some items and one shot the other caster after which the fight would be over. An epic character has a huge amount of resources, and quite regardless of his companions he would use them to win a fight like this in short order. Did you really mean epic as in level 20+ or did you mean to say archetypical?

PS. leadership is not a NPC feat, a NPC simply has followers he doesn't need a feat for it ... they are considered for the EL regardless, only summoned creatures don't count towards EL. It's not a feat like any other, in fact it should never have been a feat.

Person_Man
2007-01-06, 12:45 PM
It's all about tactics. 1st level Kobold Experts can challenge a 20th level Wizard, if they fight properly. Traps, ambushes, poison, hit and run, setting a village on fire as a distraction, creative use of magic items, setting the PC's on fire the night they forgot to set an Alarm, you know all the basics. As the PC's get to be higher level, you can just make your enemies smarter - they need not be tougher. High level warriors actually have quite an easy time doing this, especially if they work in parties.

Also, I've noticed that this takes some of the emphasis off of power gaming in my group. The PC's know that whatever they build, I can beat it, and that the solution to my combat encounters usually involves being smart or creative, not being able to deal 200 damage per turn.

Yakk
2007-01-06, 09:24 PM
This is a BBEG. I'm always in favour of BBEG not being "PCs made evil".

Deals with demons/higher powers, artifacts that the players will NOT want to use (because they stop being players), etc.

The goal is simply to stat out the character, and provide rules for how the character works.

Blade of Mu:
The Blade of Mu is a pitch-black weapon. Its exact shape varies -- it seems to shape itself into a weapon appropriate for the wielder.

The Blade of Mu contains a manevolent intelligence. It is uncertain what the goals or the origin of this intelligence is, but it influences and controls anyone associated with it.

On the other hand, it is extremely powerful.

Benefits of the Blade:
Communication: The Blade can speak telepathically to anyone who is Attracted (see below) to the Blade.

The Blade has 100' Blindsight, can always Detect Magic (caster level 30) in all directions, can Read Magic at will. On the other hand, it is communicates in a very alien way that makes it very hard to understand.

Spell Resistance: Character Level/2+20.
Continuous effects that enchant the actual wielder are negated immediately (see Negation).

Foresight: The Blade seems to be able to see the future, and can influence the wielder to defend against undetectable attacks. The wielder can dodge blows even when they have no other forwarning -- the wielder is never flatfooted unless physically restrained.

To use this ability, you must be at least Attracted to the Blade (see below).

Negation: If the Blade touches any magical effect, the effect ceases. Small and Medium sized magical effects (up to 30' in size) cease immediately. Larger magical effects warp, twist and disspiate slower, with the nearest 30' being nullified instantly, and the remainder warping towards and around the Blade. Perminate effects are nullified for at least a day from a casual touch -- longer exposure can destroy them utterly.

Area of effect spells can do some damage before the Blade negates them. No-save spells do 1/2 of a single round's effects. Save-based damage spells treat everyone as if they had improved evastion -- 50% damage on a failed save, 0% damage on a successful save. Burst spells don't work on anyone further from the effect source than the Blade.

Ranged Touch spells twist towards the Blade and are swallowed up. Any Ranged Touch that passes within 20' of the Blade simply misses. Effects that are within 100' of the Blade are at -10 to hit. Once aware of the effect, a caster may attempt to compensate for the Blade's twist by taking a -40 to their to-hit roll.

Parry:
If successfully attacked by a melee or ranged attack, the wielder may consume his or her next round's attacks to Parry the blow. Roll a to-hit against an AC of the attackers to-hit roll. On a success, the Blade parries the blow (negating any enchantments in the attacking weapon for 1 day per parry).

In addition, this deals damage to the attacking weapon (or arrow). Remember that the Blade ignores hardness.

Sharpness:
Armor is no barrier to the Blade of Mu. Consider the attacks to be touch attacks. Magical attacks that boost your AC directly don't work -- however, indirect bonus's (such as bonus's to Dex, which provide AC) do work.

On a successful hit, all enchantments currently applied to the target and/or the target's armor cease to work for 1 day per hit. New enchantments can be provided, but magical items that provided continuous enchantments don't work.

The Blade ignores the hardness and DR of any object. It can even cut through adamantium using the Blade's hilt.

Stats:
The Blade of Mu is usually a +5 Keen Ghost Touch Speed weapon of a type appropriate to the wielder. In addition, it always confirms crits.

It does an extra 1d8 cold damage on every hit.
On a critical hit, the cold damage is multiplied like the normal damage.

The Blade can also be a +5/+5 Double Weapon of Speed Ghost Touch with no Keen or auto-crit effect that deals 1d6 cold damage per hit.

Animation:
The user may cause the Blade to animate. This requires the same amount of effort as using the Blade manually, but the Blade can fly. It can also be used if you are restrained, disarmed or unable to move. It cannot, however, parry attacks against the owner if it is not near the owner.

To use this ability, you must be at least Addicted to the Blade.

Fold:
Dimension Door, as the spell. As an immediate action, character level/2 times per day. Spells that attempt to prevent dimensional travel, naturally, consumed by the Blade's presence.

To use this ability, you must be at least Obsessed with the Blade.

Costs of the Blade:
The Blade consumes and controls it's wearer.

The stages of consumption are: Attraction, Addiction, Obsession, Twisting, Submission, Consumption.

There is no effect that can prevent these stages -- even creatures immune to mind-control spells and effects are eventually consumed.

A PC at or past the Obsession stage ... is no longer a PC. At best they are a player-controlled villian.

Touch: DC 15+1 for every previous touch Will save, or become Attracted.
Posession: DC 10+1 per hour, or become Attracted.
Posession while Attracted: DC 15+1 per day, or become Addicted.
Use: DC 20+1 for every previous use, or become Addicted.
Kill: DC 25+1 for every previous kill, or become Obsessed.
Use while Obsessed: DC 20+1 per day of obsession, or become Twisted.
Use while Twisted: DC 25+1 per day of twistedness, or Submit.

Possession: Includes having someone else carry it for you.
Use: Any intentional or foreseeable use of the Blade's abilities.
Kill: Any death that was contributed towards by the Blade.

Attracted: You feel an attraction to touch it, hold it, possess it, use it. It seems right, as if you where destined to be together.

Addicted: You are no longer able to choose to give it up. You will use it in preference to any other tool. If removed from the blade, you suffer a -2 penalty to every stat, and gain 1 negative level every week for 1d6 weeks. These levels and stats can only be regained by regaining possession of the Blade.

Obsession: You will violate your alignment restrictions, oaths, or even a geas to continue to use the Blade. Your life revolves around keeping the possession of the Blade -- if this requires killing all of your friends, so be it.

Twisted: The Blade is now influencing your actions towards it's own ends. Treat this as an unresistable Suggestion, castable once for every day you have the Blade in your possession. The Blade can save up Suggestions for later use. Your alignment starts to rapidly fall towards Neutral Evil.

Submission: You are nothing more than a tool for the Blade. You will do anything the Blade wants, including give it up to a more powerful wielder. After you give up the Blade, you will continue to be it's slave.

Consumption: Once you are enslaved by the Blade, whenever you gain a level you gain two negative levels. You also gain a negative level every year you possess the Blade. These levels cannot be removed while the Blade exists.

Next, the Blade will drain your other magical items. Magical items kept near the Blade, but not touching, need to make a Will save against DC 15+1 per hour (which accumulates) or lose all magical properties. Magical items that enchant the blade wielder don't work, as the Blade negates them, but other items (like Magic Armor, other Magic weapons, etc) may work.

...

There. Give that to a L 11 Fighter, and he'll be a danger to any party. And the party had better know not to use the Blade. :)

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-07, 08:31 AM
Read a few posts, too tired to read all, so pardon if it's already been mentioned. Give him Mage-Slayer line of feats. He's got no caster level to reduce anyway, and it will really only be a problem as far as him being buffed by his cohorts, IIRC.

If he's a big character leaping around the battle-field, or a Frenzied Berserker type, etc., he could just jump all over hitting and flying out of reach while his troops pepper the party.

jlousivy
2007-01-07, 01:39 PM
two items.
invisibility ring, cape of mountebank.

round 1: activate ring, have alot of low lvl (probably lvl 1) goblins or something charge the party from all directions
1 kobald sorcerer or something cast obscurring mist to cover BBEG's enterance
round 2: cape of mountebank(dimension door) right next to the party wizard wielding a spiked chain. (he's still invisible as it was not an offensive spell)

now if the wizard casts a spell or moves you get an attack of opportunity, and it is highly unlikely he will pass his concentration check. Especially if alot of the goblins are readied to hit the wizard while he's casting a spell.
by the time round 3 is over, your wizard is now unconcious or dead.

Mr._Blinky
2007-01-08, 07:05 PM
Every high level warrior should have at least one item to one-shot a dimension door. At that level, it's pretty cheap, and will allow him to close to melee almost instantly. He steps out, a completely owns the mage, since he'll almost automatically hit. One full attack and the wizard is gone. If the wizard tries to cast, he gets AoOs, and probably won't make the concentration check. The fighter could also have Combat Expertise, which would pretty much allow him to ignore everyone but the casters till he was ready to deal with them. A well thought-out and designed Epic fighter (or almost any other class for that matter) will just take a party of that level apart.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-08, 07:15 PM
After the fighter Dimension Doors, he can't attack. Or do anything else. The wizard... five-foot steps. Or casts defensively.

jlousivy
2007-01-08, 07:18 PM
5 foot step wont help him, spiked chain has a reach, and as for casting defensively.... give him the Mage Slayer feat so they can't cast defensively.

Marius
2007-01-09, 08:31 AM
The wizard just uses his wand of invisibility (or greater invisibility) and then he moves back.

Person_Man
2007-01-09, 10:55 AM
Again, its all about tactics. A smart Wizard can cast Celerity, a Swift action spell, and/or a Quickened spell, none of which provoke AoO. But D&D is not a 1 on 1 pit fight. Eventually, spellcasters will run out of spells. So just throw more minions at them until you feel your BBEG is an appropriate challenge.

Dire Penguin
2007-01-09, 04:47 PM
I think that low lvl fighters (1-5) can beat a wizard, but after that, wizards get mean zappy spells!