Swapping Your Dice for a Deck

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I've started trying to run a game with a group who has never played much d20. The group, in general, have tried various other tabletop games with little success. I'm looking to make the experience more familiar and enjoyable for them.

The first step seems to be that they have a generally unfavourable opinion of using dice. While I've grown to love my own, I'm open to trying something new. As they all love playing card games, I was thinking of substituting the dice for a deck of cards.

Is there a precedent for using a standard poker deck of cards instead of dice for a d20 system?

If so, where may I find it?

Thanks.

[ZamielVanWeber]

d20? No. Deliria uses a card deck instead of dice. You could easily simulate it by choosing 2 suits and putting A-10 of each suit in. One suit is pip value, the other is pip value +!0. Shuffle between rolls. You just do the same with 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 card decks as well.

[Epsilon Rose]

I think if you want to use a deck in d20 you're going to have to drastically re-arrange how things are decided. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

There's a game called Fortune's Fool that uses a tarot deck, instead of dice, for conflict revolution. FF is a great game in it's own right, and I'd highly recommend trying it, but I suspect you could get away with simply importing it's conflict resolution mechanic into d20. That would work for d20 rolls and spells with lots of dice, I'd recommend dropping smaller roles (weapon damage and hp) to fixed values based on the type of dice they'd normally be.

[Raezeman]

i really don't think switching to a dice base system would be a difficult transition...

[Emperor Tippy]

d20? No. Deliria uses a card deck instead of dice. You could easily simulate it by choosing 2 suits and putting A-10 of each suit in. One suit is pip value, the other is pip value +!0. Shuffle between rolls. You just do the same with 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 card decks as well.

This.

You can go all the way up to a d52 without any issue besides time delay as you have to shuffle a lot.

[Fouredged Sword]

Mutants and Masterminds has an alternate rule set for just this. Red cards are worth the pip value, Black cards are worth Pip +10.

I like to use it for games I want the heros to feel like they have a special destiny and can make their own luck. To do this, we play from 5 card hands. The players can pick and choose what card to play from their hand, but must use their whole hand before they get more cards. It lets them pick and choose their luck.

As the DM I play from a 20 card hand I generate with a die roller.

[Psyren]

If they don't own any dice they can just use dice-rolling apps. Or start with a 3d6 system (like Dragon Age, which is also fairly rules-light) so that they don't have to confront a bunch of intimidating polyhedrals.

[Kurald Galain]

To do this, we play from 5 card hands. The players can pick and choose what card to play from their hand, but must use their whole hand before they get more cards. It lets them pick and choose their luck.

How does that prevent players from making a bunch of pointless checks (e.g. arbitrary perception/knowledge/bluff rolls) to drop the bad cards from their hand?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mutants and Masterminds has an alternate rule set for just this. Red cards are worth the pip value, Black cards are worth Pip +10.
What works for M&M ought to work for d20. Except for damage rolls, although I suppose you could do something like:

Hearts are value 1, diamonds 2, spades 3, clubs 4 (or something else equally arbitrary).
For d4-6, draw one card.
d8-d10, draw two cards and add them.
d12, draw 3 cards and add them.

[Crake]

Is there any real reason why they don't want to use dice?

Another option would be to simply make all dice rolls hidden and use the "dice list" system where you pre-roll a bunch of different types of dice, and whenever a player wants to do something, you just cross that off

[Fouredged Sword]

How does that prevent players from making a bunch of pointless checks (e.g. arbitrary perception/knowledge/bluff rolls) to drop the bad cards from their hand?

It doesn't, but the practice can be discuraged in a fair minded party. The system IS designed to make the party more "lucky" than normal.

For damage, I would go with 1 - low - Good - Max.
A 1-5 would be a 1 on the damage die,

6-10 would be
1d4 - 2
1d6 -2
1d8 -3
1d10 -3
1d12 -4

11-15 would be
1d4 - 3
1d6 -4
1d8 -6
1d10 -7
1d12 -8

16-20 would be the max roll.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

How does that prevent players from making a bunch of pointless checks (e.g. arbitrary perception/knowledge/bluff rolls) to drop the bad cards from their hand?
At that point, I'd be fine with relying on the GM to put the kibosh on roll-mongering. Some things sound awful in theory but are easy enough to work around in practice.

(You could also adopt the Apocalypse World philosophy of "when you make a roll, something happens; if it's not good, it's bad".)

[Psyren]

My problem with cards is that a deck gets less random with every draw unless you're reshuffling after every single pull, which is very time-consuming. A (fair) die at least has an equal chances of any of its faces coming up no matter how many times you roll it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Generally I played with a four deck pile or one deck per player if I don't have 4 identical decks. Four decks of identical cards are cheap to buy. One deck per player and one for the DM also works to maintain the randomness long enough to matter. Reshuffle after each combat and do a top card pull for random rolls.

Really, you could use a pile of mismatched decks unless someone in the group really decided to count cards, but that tends to be too much work for the average game.

[Epsilon Rose]

My problem with cards is that a deck gets less random with every draw unless you're reshuffling after every single pull, which is very time-consuming. A (fair) die at least has an equal chances of any of its faces coming up no matter how many times you roll it.
That's not necessarily a flaw. One of the things FF does is it has abilities and cards that affect the deck (e.g. add back the discard pile and shuffle, permanently remove a card, add certain cards or types of cards to the discard pile, ect). Playing with the distribution of the deck can actually become a big part of the strategy and creates a flow to the combat as you need to consider when you should use your riskier abilities and when you need to influence the deck.

[Segev]

As a thought, you could introduce some pseudo-strategy to this by going with having just the numbered cards, and doing some non-transitive-ness with them.

Each time somebody "rolls," the opposing player (usually the DM when a PC 'rolls,' or a PC when the DM does) plays a card for each roll, too. Spades beat Diamonds, Diamonds beat Clubs, Clubs beat Hearts, and Hearts beat Spades. If the opposing player's card is beaten by the card played by the "rolling" player, the rolling player adds 10 to the card's face value. If the opposing player's card beats the rolling player's card, the rolling player's card has its face value.

When neither of these is the case, compare the color of the cards. If they're the same, the roll adds 10. If they're not, it is the value of the card. (You could skip the non-transitive version entirely and JUST use this rule, too, if you want something simpler.)

There are two decks: the player deck and the DM deck. When either deck runs out, the discards for the other "side" of things is turned over and becomes the new deck. No need to shuffle; there's predestination, now, but it's dependent on the order in which the other "side" played cards before. (Another way to do it, if you have the tools, would be to set it up with each deck in a box with the "face down" side towards the person whose deck it is and the "face up" side towards the other(s); discards go on the "face up" side of the other(s) box, so they continuously cycle.)

This last could be extended to each PERSON having their own deck, and whoever they're rolling against (i.e., whoever's playing the counter-card to determine whether it's +10 or not to the roll) getting their discard on the bottom of his deck, and vice-versa. Since this version has one card played by each person each time, the decks will maintain equal sizes.

[Fax Celestis]

http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=MechCombat#Basic_Combat_Mechanic

I started working on a system here that might prove useful. You'd have to cannibalize it to make it work in d20, but as a standalone I haven't finished fleshing it out.

Note that it requires four decks of cards, plus one per additional player above 4. DM uses their own deck-set and hand-size could be directly related to level (minimum 4, maximum 8).

You could also cannibalize some of my pilot skills (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=MechCombat:_Pilot_Skills) for feats if you really are dedicated to this idea.

Alternatively, I'd suggest looking at Everway, which is a diceless system that uses a tarot deck as a conflict resolution mechanic.

[Epsilon Rose]

As a thought, you could introduce some pseudo-strategy to this by going with having just the numbered cards, and doing some non-transitive-ness with them.

Each time somebody "rolls," the opposing player (usually the DM when a PC 'rolls,' or a PC when the DM does) plays a card for each roll, too. Spades beat Diamonds, Diamonds beat Clubs, Clubs beat Hearts, and Hearts beat Spades. If the opposing player's card is beaten by the card played by the "rolling" player, the rolling player adds 10 to the card's face value. If the opposing player's card beats the rolling player's card, the rolling player's card has its face value.

When neither of these is the case, compare the color of the cards. If they're the same, the roll adds 10. If they're not, it is the value of the card. (You could skip the non-transitive version entirely and JUST use this rule, too, if you want something simpler.)

There are two decks: the player deck and the DM deck. When either deck runs out, the discards for the other "side" of things is turned over and becomes the new deck. No need to shuffle; there's predestination, now, but it's dependent on the order in which the other "side" played cards before. (Another way to do it, if you have the tools, would be to set it up with each deck in a box with the "face down" side towards the person whose deck it is and the "face up" side towards the other(s); discards go on the "face up" side of the other(s) box, so they continuously cycle.)

This last could be extended to each PERSON having their own deck, and whoever they're rolling against (i.e., whoever's playing the counter-card to determine whether it's +10 or not to the roll) getting their discard on the bottom of his deck, and vice-versa. Since this version has one card played by each person each time, the decks will maintain equal sizes.


The problem with that is, it could quickly result in one group running out of cards well before the other. If one side has a lot of spellcasters or ToB classes they might only make 3 or four draws per cycle, where as a side with a lot of natural attackers could make 4 per turn and 16 per cycle (more if they're making saves). This could leave the DM drawing from a discard deck with fewer cards than he needs per turn and a really odd repetition for roll values.

[Segev]

Actually, if you go with the "everybody gets a deck" version, each time anybody plays, one person "opposes" them, and both discard to the bottom of the other's deck.

So if you have one Crusader going through 4 cards per turn and one wizard going through one, the DM plays 4 cards against the Crusader and 1 against hte wizard. The DM's four cards against the Crusader discard to the bottom of the Crusader's deck, making back the 4 the Crusader spent. The 1 played against the Wizard goes to the bottom of the Wizard's deck, as well, making that one back. The Crusader and Wizard's combined 5 cards go to the bottom of the DM's deck, making up for the 5 he's "given" to the Crusader and Wizard combined. In the end, all 3 decks still have 40 cards in them (assuming the royal cards have been removed).

[Segev]

As an additional thought, one could go with the "match cards, add 10 to the 'roll,' non-match, take face value" idea, and then also have the "royal" cards still in the deck. They count as a Natural 20 unless the opposing card is a higher royal, or is the same royal but of the trumping suit. They count as an 11, 12, or 13 (jack, queen, king, respectively) if "beaten" by a card of a different color, and as a 21, 22, or 23 if "beaten" by one of the same color. (They're still a nat 20 against their twin. Also, in cases where "nat 20" isn't a perfectly trumping success, they allow a second play that adds 11, 12, or 13 as appropriate to the roll, instead.)

[Psyren]

That's not necessarily a flaw. One of the things FF does is it has abilities and cards that affect the deck (e.g. add back the discard pile and shuffle, permanently remove a card, add certain cards or types of cards to the discard pile, ect). Playing with the distribution of the deck can actually become a big part of the strategy and creates a flow to the combat as you need to consider when you should use your riskier abilities and when you need to influence the deck.

If you have meta-abilities like that then I can see it adding some strategy to the game but there's still the problem of either endlessly shuffling or accepting reduced randomness if you don't. i.e. if you pull both black 10s (nat 20s) out of the deck you'll never get another until you reshuffle.

Cards are also much easier to cheat with than die rolls - not saying this is something most groups would have to worry about but the temptation to "stack the deck" after a series of bad pulls, especially using the "individual decks" variant, would be hard to resist for some. Even accidental cheating is possible.

[Arkusus]

Zamiel hit the easiest solution, but there are some interesting options avalible if you go down that road...

The most interesting alternative is the "don't shuffle every draw" alternative. To make that work, you'd probably want 80 cards or so at least in a deck (2 decks of playing cards, J-K removed, black is +10). Then you don't shuffle till you've gone through say... Half or a quarter of the deck or till you've exhausted some numbers completely.

The non-shuffle variety protects slightly against "Bad nights" where one player keeps rolling bad, because each bad card leaves fewer in the deck. (Each good card does the same against "good nights" as well)

The only hazard is if you have card counters in your midst...

[Epsilon Rose]

Zamiel hit the easiest solution, but there are some interesting options avalible if you go down that road...

The most interesting alternative is the "don't shuffle every draw" alternative. To make that work, you'd probably want 80 cards or so at least in a deck (2 decks of playing cards, J-K removed, black is +10). Then you don't shuffle till you've gone through say... Half or a quarter of the deck or till you've exhausted some numbers completely.

The non-shuffle variety protects slightly against "Bad nights" where one player keeps rolling bad, because each bad card leaves fewer in the deck. (Each good card does the same against "good nights" as well)

The only hazard is if you have card counters in your midst...

I'd actually use not shuffling with just a normal deck and have the face cards count as some type of good roll+a deck effect.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Is there any real reason why they don't want to use dice?

Another option would be to simply make all dice rolls hidden and use the "dice list" system where you pre-roll a bunch of different types of dice, and whenever a player wants to do something, you just cross that off

They generally just don't seem to like the idea of dice. As silly as it may sound, I think they may think using dice for a non-gambling game childish. I don't want to remove their involvement with character actions by doing rolls for them; it'd get kind of boring and I know I wouldn't enjoy it, as a player or DM.


d20? No. Deliria uses a card deck instead of dice. You could easily simulate it by choosing 2 suits and putting A-10 of each suit in. One suit is pip value, the other is pip value +!0. Shuffle between rolls. You just do the same with 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 card decks as well.


Mutants and Masterminds has an alternate rule set for just this. Red cards are worth the pip value, Black cards are worth Pip +10.

I like to use it for games I want the heros to feel like they have a special destiny and can make their own luck. To do this, we play from 5 card hands. The players can pick and choose what card to play from their hand, but must use their whole hand before they get more cards. It lets them pick and choose their luck.

As the DM I play from a 20 card hand I generate with a die roller.

I hadn't heard of this before. I've gone over M&M before, but never in great deal and I've always been on the player side. This sounds like a practical and simple solution.


What works for M&M ought to work for d20. Except for damage rolls, although I suppose you could do something like:

Hearts are value 1, diamonds 2, spades 3, clubs 4 (or something else equally arbitrary).
For d4-6, draw one card.
d8-d10, draw two cards and add them.
d12, draw 3 cards and add them.


I was thinking of a similar system. The problem I see coming up is getting a ten or some such equally problematic value when you should be capped at 4-6. It's a not really a big deal. You could always make it half of one cards value. That caps it at 5 instead of 6, but the difference is moot. And...


I'd actually use not shuffling with just a normal deck and have the face cards count as some type of good roll+a deck effect.

This. I like it. I played one game with a crit deck and it was a lot of solid fun. The deck effects for cards would be fun, though the kind of hearts and queen of spades may need to have good roll+negative deck effect.


http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=MechCombat#Basic_Combat_Mechanic

I started working on a system here that might prove useful. You'd have to cannibalize it to make it work in d20, but as a standalone I haven't finished fleshing it out.

Note that it requires four decks of cards, plus one per additional player above 4. DM uses their own deck-set and hand-size could be directly related to level (minimum 4, maximum 8).

You could also cannibalize some of my pilot skills (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=MechCombat:_Pilot_Skills) for feats if you really are dedicated to this idea.

Alternatively, I'd suggest looking at Everway, which is a diceless system that uses a tarot deck as a conflict resolution mechanic.

I'll have to take a peek, if nothing other than ideas. Thanks.

[Captnq]

Crystal Ball.

It has a nice randomizer.

I don't know the last time I actually ROLLED a die.

[Epsilon Rose]

This. I like it. I played one game with a crit deck and it was a lot of solid fun. The deck effects for cards would be fun, though the kind of hearts and queen of spades may need to have good roll+negative deck effect.


There are definitely some negative effects you can use. In Fortune's Fool, the tower card would remove any major arcana that was used (if you drew one you got to hang onto it and could play it later for a bonus) from the game for the rest of the session. It would also stay in effect until the deck got reshuffled.

[Segev]

If one wishes to go with "Red is face value, black is face value +10," and then have the royal cards be "result + deck effect," let's see what we can come up with for these deck effects, shall we?

Jack of Hearts: The opposing player must give you a card of the Heart suit from his hand or subtract 20 from his next roll. ("The Knave of Hearts, he stole her Heart.")

Queen of Hearts: If this is an attack roll, automatically confirm it as a critical hit. ("Off with their heads!")

King of Hearts:

Jack of Diamonds: When played, halves the reward or doubles the costs of the interaction (share of loot from the fight, price of item being negotiated, etc.) for the character whose player played it. Also forces the opposing player to play a second card and allow the one who played this one to choose which card gets played. Opposing Jacks of diamonds force this effect on both players, even if they choose to force the other player to play the non-Jack of Diamonds card once the second card is revealed.

Queen of Diamonds: When played, also allows the player to discard as many cards from his hand as he likes and draw up to a maximum hand of 5. (If playing with "draw one, play one," this card gives a hand of five, but don't draw again until the hand is flushed.)

King of Diamonds: Play on another player's turn to give them a natural 20. Take the card they played for use on a future roll.

Jack of Clubs: Always a bit violent; opponent turns over and discards top card of his deck: if it's red, he takes damage equal to its face value (11, 12, 13 for J, Q, K, respectively); if it's black, YOU take damage equal to its face value.

Queen of Clubs: She is an excellent hostess. Your opponent may discard as many cards as he wants from his hand and draw up to a full hand again. (If playing with no hand, this card GIVES your opponent a hand, but he doesn't draw until the hand is flushed.)

King of Clubs:

Jack of Spades:

Queen of Spades:

King of Spades:

Black Joker: You succeed at whatever you were trying to do, but in the most ignominious and humiliating way the opposing player can narrate.

Red Joker: A royal card played by your opponent counts as a natural "1" instead of a natural "20," or you subtract 20 from his result. You get the result he otherwise would have, if you still need to determine a value.

[Slipperychicken]

As long as you can generate random numbers fairly (i.e. even distribution), you should be fine.
Maybe reshuffle the deck after each "roll"?