Tier for an omni monk

[Lans]

I had an idea for a monk that got all the ACFs available to it divided amongst its 20 levels, starting from when it first got the choice feature.

So Here are some of what it would get, badly worded
- at 1st you get either Flurry, Skirmish, Psychic insight, or Decisive Strike, and at levels 6, 11 and 16 you get another choice from this list.

-At 1st level a monk gains a +2 bonus on either, escape artist, tumble, balance, listen, intimidate, bluff, hide, concentration.

-At 1st level, a monk may select either Choke Hold, Improved Grapple, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Throw, Dodge, Draconic Fist, Eagle Claw Attack, Earth’s Embrace, Falling Star Strike, Fists of Iron, Flying Kick, Freezing the Lifeblood, Grappling Block, Great Ki Shout, Great Throw, Iron Will, Ki Shout, Monastic Training, Pain Touch, Power Attack, Prone Attack, Purifying Flame, Remain Conscious, Roundabout Kick, Soulwarp Strike, Stunning Fist, Superior Expertise, Toughness, Unbalancing Strike, Underfoot Combat, Weapon Finesse,
and gain that feat or ability, every level after 1st he may select another feat or ability from this list.

-At second level a monk may, choose between Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Endurance,Fiery Fist, Improved Bullrush, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Lightning Reflexes, or Mobility, a psionic feat, and gain that feat. Every level after second you may choose another feat from this or a martial arts feat from the above list.

-At 6th level a monk may select either Blind Fight, Blur of Motion, Die hard, Fiery Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Ki Blast, Spring Attack, Tenacious Tracker, or a martial arts feat from the above lists. Choose another feat or ability from this list at 8th and every level after words.

-At second level a monk may select from Evasion, Invisible Fist, Feign Death, Spell Reflection. choose another at 7, 12, 17

-At third level a monk can take Fast Movement or Standing Jump, Choose another at level 12
-At third a monk can take Darkvision, Still Mind, Lay on Hands, Resist Fire, or Prayerful Meditation. Choose another at levels 6/10/14/18

-At 4th a monk can take slow fall, water step, or wall walker. Choose another at levels 10 and 16
-At 4th a monk can select between Holy Strike and Ki Strike(magic). Choose another at level 12

-5th a monk can select between Purity and Body or Resistant Body. Choose another at level 13
-A 5th level monk can select between a normal AC bonus or Defensive Insight. Choose another at level 13

-At 6th you gain an unearthed arcana special ability as long as you meet the prerequisites. Every other level you gain another one.

-At 7th a monk can take wholeness of body or shadow blend, locate creature. Choose another at levels 11 and 16

-9th level a monk can take improved evasion, or harder they fall. Choose another at level. Choose another at level 15.
-At 10th a monk can select between ki strike(lawful) and Shape Soulmeld and arm bind. Choose another at level 16
-At 12th a monk can take abundent step, walk the shadows, fire stride. Choose another at levels 15 and 18.
-At 13th a monk can select between diamond and axiomatic soul. Choose another at levels 16 and 18
-At 16th a monk can select between ki strike(cold iron) and ki strike (adamantine). Choose another at level 18

Do something along this with all the class features and what tier does the monk become? I wanted to avoid dragon for the moment, but racial ACFs and FR and eberron are on the table

This also opens up the monk to qualify for every

[CyberThread]

4th just...4th

[Flickerdart]

You still have a d8 HD and average BAB. Your class features still suck. The sheer amount of bonus crap might be able to get you to "okay at a bunch of things" T4 level.

[Lans]

I figure its definite that its tier 4, between the skill boosts, feats, and miscellaneous abilities like dimension door, feign death and blink.

[Person_Man]

If you took Pathfinder Monk, added full BAB, allowed mix and match Archetype abilities, and allowed the Monk to change it's bonus Feats and abilities every morning, you'd have Tier 3.

But overall I agree with Flickerdart. A bag of garbage is bad. But a dumpster full of garbage, is still garbage, no matter how many additional bags of garbage you throw in it.

[Psyren]

PF Monk doesn't really need full BAB because it gets that from flurry. Otherwise I agree with Person_Man's post.

[Lans]

If you took Pathfinder Monk, added full BAB, allowed mix and match Archetype abilities, and allowed the Monk to change it's bonus Feats and abilities every morning, you'd have Tier 3.

But overall I agree with Flickerdart. A bag of garbage is bad. But a dumpster full of garbage, is still garbage, no matter how many additional bags of garbage you throw in it.

I don't think all of the monk abilities are garbage, a lot of what they get would be nice to have just on better class

[Kurald Galain]

Well, if you give him some partially-charged wands...

[Psyren]

Well, if you give him some partially-charged wands...

No. None of that. *wags finger*

[Epsilon Rose]

Why are they only partially charged?

[Big Fau]

Why are they only partially charged?

It's an old meme.


In other news, happy Monkday.

[Jack_Simth]

Why are they only partially charged?
Also it's a way to cut down on expenses. A half-charged wand is valued at half the cost of a fully-charged wand. So if you get a bunch of wands with just five or ten charges, well....

Oh yes, and lots of cross-class UMD.

[Story]

Why are they only partially charged?

So that he can afford them with WBL. The joke is that someone wrote a Monk guide which basically amounted to saying start the game using WBL on a bunch of partially charged wands and then use cross class UMD to fail at WBLmancy.

[lsfreak]

But overall I agree with Flickerdart. A bag of garbage is bad. But a dumpster full of garbage, is still garbage, no matter how many additional bags of garbage you throw in it.

Pretty much this. There are a few ACFs that are quite nice, but the monk chassis simply doesn't benefit. Decisive Strike only really works on an AoO build that's better as monk 1/fighter X, Invisible Fist is much better used by a monk 2/rogue X. Some of the bonus feats are nice, but again, you're likely using them to fuel a build based on a different class that's simply better put together (or going after a different ACF and using them for chaos shuffle fuel if that's a thing).

[123456789blaaa]

PF Monk doesn't really need full BAB because it gets that from flurry. Otherwise I agree with Person_Man's post.

Why even bother just giving them full BAB in certain situations but not others? Would it really break anything to just give them normal full BAB?

[Psyren]

Why even bother just giving them full BAB in certain situations but not others? Would it really break anything to just give them normal full BAB?

It wouldn't break anything, no - but full BAB and bonus feats are kind of the Fighter's niche. There's a lot of goodies meant for Fighters that a full BAB monk could instantly qualify for, diluting that intent.

[Big Fau]

Why even bother just giving them full BAB in certain situations but not others? Would it really break anything to just give them normal full BAB?

Because SKR hates Monks.

[Psyren]

Because SKR hates Monks.

So much he gave them Qinggong and ZA and Tetori and MoMS and...

[Big Fau]

So much he gave them Qinggong and ZA and Tetori and MoMS and...

I have reason to doubt that he had a direct hand in those and not other developers who worked on the same books.

[Ruethgar]

Getting Wildshape, Turn Undead, Smite, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack and Rage and you would only put it at T4?

[Psyren]

I have reason to doubt that he had a direct hand in those and not other developers who worked on the same books.

You might even be right, but regardless - all that means is that even if he truly does hate monks, that there are other hands at the tiller giving them nice things, and ultimately that's what matters in the end.

[Person_Man]

It wouldn't break anything, no - but full BAB and bonus feats are kind of the Fighter's niche. There's a lot of goodies meant for Fighters that a full BAB monk could instantly qualify for, diluting that intent.

True. But to me, that's an argument for giving the Tier 4 Fighter more and better Archetypes and Fighter only bonus Feats, and not a reason to keep the Monk nerfed.

Also, I dislike the general line of reasoning that because X class is cruddy, we can't make Y class similar but better. It just leads you to replicating more crud. And I think it's the real culprit behind some terrible design decisions, like the 3.5 Soulborn, 3.5 Soulknife, 3.5 Scout, every version of the Samurai and Ninja and Monk, and probably others I'm forgetting.

I would agree with you if the Fighter was a useful Tier 3 class with a real niche. But it's meh Tier 4 class that gets a bunch of bonus Feats (which Pathfinder generally nerfed) and minor bonuses. So I see no reason to "protect" it from a Monk fix.

[Psyren]

T3 is a nice design goal but T4 and T5 classes do exist for a reason. You said it several times yourself - T3 is defined as a class with a pool of valuable options that it can rotate each day. But with options come bookkeeping, and some players just want to sit at the table, full attack, and be told what to equip. They want to be John Q. Normal who left their stable job in the city guard to join a ragtag band of murderhobos, even if that means relying on magical buffs and items from others to actually succeed.

Does it appeal to me personally? Of course not, I'll take the options every time. But I've seen it happen more than often enough to know that there is an audience for single-classed Fighters out there despite all their limitations.

[Telonius]

So that he can afford them with WBL. The joke is that someone wrote a Monk guide which basically amounted to saying start the game using WBL on a bunch of partially charged wands and then use cross class UMD to fail at WBLmancy.

Link here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) for posterity's sake. Delve into the 51 pages if you dare.

[Big Fau]

T3 is a nice design goal but T4 and T5 classes do exist for a reason.

They do, I just wish the definitions of those tiers was different. Like this:


Capable of "solving" most encounters with a small amount of resource expenditure, but not capable of ending encounters by themselves without significant expenditures of various resources. (Full casters and manifesters; "solving" encounters means the DM is able to determine the outcome of the encounter within 4-5 rounds, barring flukes and bad luck).
What Tier 3 currently is, without the glorified filler abilities. (Martial Adepts, Soulbinders, Meldshapers, and non-"Tier 1" psionic classes).
As the current Tier 4, but with the ability to contribute outside of their specializations without needing massive optimization to do so.
Classes not intended for PC use.


Unfortunately updating the classes to meet my expectations is time-consuming and difficult (Legend does a good job, but I like too many classes in 3.5 to fully jump ship).

[Lans]

Getting Wildshape, Turn Undead, Smite, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack and Rage and you would only put it at T4?

In my post I excluded dragon, and if I did include it I would of liked to exclude full on alternate classes

[Person_Man]

T3 is a nice design goal but T4 and T5 classes do exist for a reason. You said it several times yourself - T3 is defined as a class with a pool of valuable options that it can rotate each day. But with options come bookkeeping, and some players just want to sit at the table, full attack, and be told what to equip. They want to be John Q. Normal who left their stable job in the city guard to join a ragtag band of murderhobos, even if that means relying on magical buffs and items from others to actually succeed.

Does it appeal to me personally? Of course not, I'll take the options every time. But I've seen it happen more than often enough to know that there is an audience for single-classed Fighters out there despite all their limitations.

Fair enough. Though in that case, I wish Tier 4 classes were being designed more purposefully for new players and/or players who just like simple mechanics, and not by accident (Truenamer, Monk, etc).

[Kazyan]

Fair enough. Though in that case, I wish Tier 4 classes were being designed more purposefully for new players and/or players who just like simple mechanics, and not by accident (Truenamer, Monk, etc).

There's at least the Barbarian, which does exactly what it claims to do, and the Warmage, which everyone seems to think needs to be fixed when being Tier 3 is not the point of being a specialized fireball-it caster. If Tier 4 classes were actually designed with that intent, the forums would write them off as bad design and post 9001 fixes in the homebrew sub forum.

[Flickerdart]

There's at least the Barbarian, which does exactly what it claims to do, and the Warmage, which everyone seems to think needs to be fixed when being Tier 3 is not the point of being a specialized fireball-it caster. If Tier 4 classes were actually designed with that intent, the forums would write them off as bad design and post 9001 fixes in the homebrew sub forum.
The problem with Warmage isn't that it needs to be T3, it's that it sucks at blasting, and blasting sucks compared to swording stuff. If it were actually a good choice for a blaster mage, or blasting wasn't crap, then its focus would be excusable.

[Big Fau]

There's at least the Barbarian, which does exactly what it claims to do, and the Warmage, which everyone seems to think needs to be fixed when being Tier 3 is not the point of being a specialized fireball-it caster. If Tier 4 classes were actually designed with that intent, the forums would write them off as bad design and post 9001 fixes in the homebrew sub forum.

The problems with the Warmage are as follows:


Graduates of the special arcane war colleges, those known as warmages are drilled only and utterly in the casting of spells most useful for laying down destruction, confusing an enemy, or screening an allied action.

...or the center of a smaller adventuring company's offensive power

While they do get plenty of AoEs, they do not get the "most useful spells" for confusing an enemy or "screening" allied actions. Their spells are purely DD. And they are not capable of being a party's "center of offensive power". That job belongs to whoever has the best damage output or BFC.

Then there's the sheer amount of overlap between spells: Optimized spellcasters that focus on DD (such as the Mailman) usually only have three or four different DD spells, while a majority of the Warmage's spell list is nothing but. I don't need Burning Hands, Fireburst, Fireball, Blast of Flame, Greater Fireburst, Delayed Blast Fireball, Firestorm, Incendiary Cloud, and Meteor Swarm all on the same spell list when that same list has Orb of Fire, Scorching Ray, Flame Strike, and Fire Seeds. The entire spell list is loaded with redundant effects that just are not necessary to a DD specialist.

At most, the class should have 4-6 spells for each damage type (one of the reasons Psions are good for DD is because they only need to spend 3 powers known, yet they get access to 4 different damage types), and a little variety in the AoEs to cover the bases. The rest of the spell list would be better spent on lesser BFC spells and Abjurations that would protect the party from friendly fire.

Finally, the class features themselves. Aside from Advanced Learning (which is better off as Eclectic Learning due to the crippling overspecialization), their class features are incredibly lackluster (seriously, Sudden Maximize as a bonus feat at 20th level?) No variation, no flexibility beyond "What DD spell do I get to cast this round?", and barely any actual BFC (they do get Pyrotechnics and Black Tentacles.

The class just isn't useful at it's supposed job, at least not as much as a well-built martial adept or a minimally optimized Blaster Sorcerer.

[Person_Man]

+1 to big Fau's comment.

Though if I were to design a Tier 4 Warmage for new players and/or players who like simple mechanics, I'd strictly use at-will spell-like abilities instead. Similar to my (Tier 3) Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276), but without the melee and armor stuff. One solid ranged touch, one volley of ranged attacks, one burst, one cone, one wall, etc. Mix in some secondary effects (Stun, Fear, Slow, etc). Cool capstone that lets you truly blow the crud out of everything once per day. Slap on UMD and social Skills. Done.

That way, a player who just wants to blast stuff every round can just effectively blast stuff every round, without book keeping.

[Lans]

Ok, I put every ability, and bonus feat I could find from every book. It can get a little bit exponential at the early levels, Add 1d6 to 1 attack per day at 1, add 2d6 to 2 attacks per day, add 3d6 to 3 attacks per day at 3.
Skirmish is really nice at low levels, and you can get pounce and flurry by the time it starts being less useful, being able to get every Mastery ability is nifty.

I think it might be low tier 3, between all the damage and skill boosts, stunning effects, and defensive abilities.

It should be able to keep up with a barbarian in damage from level 2+, with comparable or better defenses, better skills, and a host of situational abilities.

For example a barbarian should be dealing about 2d6+9-12(13-16 with PA) damage on a charge at level 2 while raging. This monk can do 3d6+1d12+stat. Monk is using draconic fist, flying kick and skirmish

Barbarian has HP advantage, but the monk is invisible for a round, which is very relevent when a person is charging into battle.
ACs should be comparable.

Monk easily adds another 3d6 of damage at the next 3 levels(Holy, purifying flame, and draconic fist increasing, as well as getting another 5 bonus feats to play around with gett,ing its 6th level bonus ability, or a style mastery or maybe just grabbing some good feats like Combat Reflexes, Stunning Fist, or Deflect Arrows .

[Lans]

Ok, Did some work on organizing abilities into what they do.

Damage-ha
Skirmish D6 at 1st and 11th-If you can get a way to trigger this and flurry awesome, probably better at low levels than flurry.
Flurry
Decisive Strike
Flying Kick+1d12 on charge
Draconic Fist +1d6 increases at every 5th level
Purifying Flame +1d6- can stack with Draconic fist
Psychic Feat
Fiery Fist +1d6-Draconic Fist is better and they don't stack
Iron Fist +1d6
Holy Strike +1d6 vs evil
Sleeping Tiger+1d6 vs flat footed-Needs 4 pre req feats.
Empty Hand Mastery-ups UAS one size
Roundabout Kick extra attack on crit

Accuracy-
Invisible Fist
Blind-Fight
Darkvision
Great Throw-Deal damage with trip attack





AC
Psychic Feat
Dodge
Mobility
Invisible Eye+ 1 AC from fighting defensively/expertise
Cobra Strike-Increase Dodge to +2
Skirmish +1 at 5th and 15th
Mighty Works mastery 1 +2 AC after attack action
Defensive Insight-+1 insight to AC-works in armor
Monk AC bonus
Underfoot Combat-+4 to AC when in Large creatures square. Entering doen't provoke

Saves
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes

Skills
Foot and Fist Mastery(+10 to balance, Jump, Tumble)
+2 to 6 skills

Defensive abilities/Feats-
Evasion
Invisible Fist-invisibility as immediate action 1/3 rounds
Feign Death-Stops to death, mind-affecting, level draining, and other effect
Deflect Arrows
Shadow Blend-concealment when not in daylight
Diamond Soul
Axiomatic Soul
Resistant Body
Resist Fire 5
Toughness
Prone Attack-No penalty to attacks while prone, free stand up on hit
Purity
Grappling Block- Disarm check to negate an attack
Blur of Motion-Full Defense+1 attack

Effects-
Soul Warp Strike Save vs Nausea, sick on save
Stunning Fist
Mighty Works Mastery 2- stun attack does d4 strength damage
Freezing the Lifes Blood
Falling Star Strike
Ki Shout
Great Ki Shout
Pain touch
Unbalancing Strike

Size Matters Not, Decisive Strike, Meditation of War Mastery up DCs

Mobility-
Fast movement
Standng Jump
wall walker
Water Step
Fire Stride-Might be the best of these, lasting minutes per level and allowing multiple jumps
Walk the Shadows

Track

[rexx1888]

that... that just looks like a mess of extraneous crap O.o maybe it feels good in practise to sort through 3 pages of sheets to be effective, but it looks painful :\

also, doesnt it worry anyone else that in order to make a monk tier 3, you have to give it essentially a dozen different classes worth of features... its like a technicoloured ball of goop if the only colours you had were an assortment of brown n grey :\

[Lans]

that... that just looks like a mess of extraneous crap O.o maybe it feels good in practise to sort through 3 pages of sheets to be effective, but it looks painful :\

On the bright side, I got the image of a monk being pounced by a barbarian, and the monk just taking his weapon away. Granted the barbarian is going to have like 5 more than the monk on the check, but it can happen.


also, doesnt it worry anyone else that in order to make a monk tier 3, you have to give it essentially a dozen different classes worth of features... its like a technicoloured ball of goop if the only colours you had were an assortment of brown n grey :\
I think it being tier 3 is debatable, and largely happens because of a 3.0 giving the monk a ton of bonus feat options, and synergy bonuses.

I'm a bit more impressed that things didn't go too far, its damage is good after stacking 5 abilities, but its less than a whirling frenzy barbarian, his AC is about on par with a fighter with a tower shield and more situational.

The DC increases to its stunning fist could be a bit problematic in an actual game, getting its DC 8-10 higher than normal, if it wasn't for a ton of stuff being immune to it.