3.5 craft (sculpting)

[Raezeman]

So, i recently started my career as a DM and one of my players is a dwarf who wants to be a sculptor and thus has invested skill points into craft (sculpting). I like this idea, so i'm going to let him make and sell sculptures when when he is home in between adventures.
Now, I know that the skill description states that he can use the skill to earn halve the check in gold pieces per week, but, knowing the guy, he would want to make Big sculptures over a longer amount of time worth more money than just earning a small fee per week.
So, my question really is: What would be the craft DC to make a sculpture that could be sold for XXX goldpieces? I could then still let him chose to make a small thingy worth 10 gp in a few days, or something huge worth a few thousand in a timespan of, i don't know, a month, depending on his craft checks.
Or is there a guide to crafting pieces of art somewhere that i stupidly missed?

friendly regards,
J.R.

[Deophaun]

Now, I know that the skill description states that he can use the skill to earn halve the check in gold pieces per week
That's a profession check, not a craft check.

The amount of crafting you get done is the craft check multiplied by the DC in silver pieces a week (or, if you doing daily checks, copper pieces per day). The DC for a superior item is 20, high quality is 15, and typical item is 10. There are some DCs for specific items, but very, very little falls out of that range.

However, if you want, you can add an arbitrary number of +10s to the DC to speed construction.

Given that, let's say you player has a craft (sculpture) modifier of +15. He will want to take 10 on his checks so that he doesn't risk wasting time and money on failed checks, so he will have a craft (sculpture) check of 25. He will want to sculpt high quality sculptures (base DC 15) at an accelerated pace (+10). He will make 25 (check) * 25 (DC) silver pieces a week, or 62.5 gold pieces every week. If, however, his modifier was +25, he could accelerate the crafting twice, so he would make 35 (check) * 35 (DC) silver pieces a week, or 122.5 gold pieces.

Keep in mind, however, that the player needs to spend 1/3 the object's final cost in materials. So he's actually netting a little less than 82 gp/week in the latter case, instead of 122.5


What would be the craft DC to make a sculpture that could be sold for XXX goldpieces? I could then still let him chose to make a small thingy worth 10 gp in a few days, or something huge worth a few thousand in a timespan of, i don't know, a month, depending on his craft checks.
As stated, DCs are based on the item's quality, not value. When you craft enough "value" into the statue, it's done. Your 10 GP small thingy would be an typical statue that an untrained person of average intelligence using basic tools could reliably make in a week (10 (check) * 10 (DC) = 100 silver pieces). If an untrained person wanted to make a typical statue worth 100 gold, it would take him 10 weeks of work to complete it.

[Mr Adventurer]

In an economy where the copper piece is the Commoner standard, being able to make 10gp a week without training is nuts! :D

[Deophaun]

On average, it would be considerably less than that.

Let's do away with the idea that all people optimize, and all paths are open to all people. PCs are special in that way. All NPCs are limited and couldn't choose the optimal path even if they could see it. In this way, the Tippy-verse is avoided.

So, your average untrained crafter is going to make something practical like 10'-polls instead of trade goods like statues. What are their profits/week?

Well, the value of their product is 10gp. However, because the items are not trade goods, they do not get full value when they sell to the trader that stops through their town. They get 5 gp at the sale. They then have to spend 3 gp, 3 sp, and 3 cp to get materials for their next week of labor. That leaves your average crafter with a profit of 1 gold, 6 silver, 7 copper.

That's more than double what someone untrained in a profession would make. However, if you're a peasant that wants to train in anything, you would want to be trained in a profession, as profession yields more money at low ranks than crafting does. Of course, if you have a steady demand for your product that allows you to sell at full price, crafting is always better.

[sumptesh]

In an economy where the copper piece is the Commoner standard, being able to make 10gp a week without training is nuts! :D

When questioned about economics just proclaim a wizard did it.

[asnys]

That's a profession check, not a craft check.

Crafters can do it too:


Check
You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft’s daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. (Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.)

[Raezeman]

yes yes, i know that the DC depends on the quality, not the value, but when dealing with art like a sculpture, it is the quality of the thing that would decide its value. Let's say you want to make a medium sized statue of a certain beautiful Elf lady. A professional sculptor (capable of craft checks up to 35 or so) could make a very realistic beautiful statue out of a black of marble, while an amateur, someone who had his first sculpting for dummies lesson yesterday, (capable of craft checks up to 15 or so) could maybe make a statue that could be recognized to have a humanoid shape. We could for a moment put a value of 500 gp on the professional statue. If we put the craft DC at for example 5, the professional would do it rather fast, but even the amateur would be capable of eventually finishing that statue eventually. While when you think of it, an amateur would be able to make a real realistic looking beautiful statue. So if we were to put the DC at 25, the amateur would never be able to do it, but the professional guy will.
So, to sum up, what would be the DC for making a statue that is of significant enough quality to be sold for a fair price through the use of craft checks?

[unseenmage]

So, to sum up, what would be the DC for making a statue that is of significant enough quality to be sold for a fair price through the use of craft checks?

It's based on what the Crafter rolls for his check. Cannot take 20 on Craft checks but can take 10. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm) So he'll be able to consistently make a DC 10+his modifiers Sculpted item.

[Raezeman]

not what i mean.

description of craft check, for a week worth of work:
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC.
If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you
have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or
triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed
the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the
DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC
doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made
this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the
next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total
reaches the price of the item in silver pieces. If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week. If
you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay
half the original raw material cost again.
So, what would be the DC to make a fancy sculpture? You can put 1 rank in craft, have an average check of 11 then and by having plenty of weeks he could technically build a super fancy statue while a professional sculpture, with lot's of points into craft could only make it faster. But that's not how it really works, or at least, how i'm going to have it in my campaign. ONLY the pro with lot's of skill points could make a fancy sculpture, so what DC would you put on a fancy sculpture?

[unseenmage]

not what i mean.



My apologies for not making myself better understood. There are no listed DCs for individual craft checks for non-specific items. Craft DCs are based on gp costs and gp costs can be used to extrapolate Craft DCs. That's it. That's all the guidance the Rules As Written gives us.

Your best bet in this situation is to set a DC appropriate to the character's level and decide on a gp value you're okay with them having for free every now and then. Probably one equivalent to the Profession values mentioned earlier.

Remember too that it's Dungeons and Dragons not Crafting and Merchandising. Which I only say because it was the best advice given to me back when I first started following the free gp rabbit down to cheesey Wonderland.
If the PCs aren't adventuring then why not just break out the spreadsheets and do everyone's taxes instead? Again not trying to be snide, it's a serious question which deserves serious consideration. Do What's fun first and what's in the rules second.

[ArqArturo]

When questioned about economics just proclaim a wizard did it.

You can also say that about world economy, too.

From what I remember, profession has synergy with the craft check, if it's related to it (This a stonecutter has a bonus in the Stonecutting skill).

[Raezeman]

Remember too that it's Dungeons and Dragons not Crafting and Merchandising. Which I only say because it was the best advice given to me back when I first started following the free gp rabbit down to cheesey Wonderland.
If the PCs aren't adventuring then why not just break out the spreadsheets and do everyone's taxes instead? Again not trying to be snide, it's a serious question which deserves serious consideration. Do What's fun first and what's in the rules second.
Don't worry, i'm not focusing on the mundane thingies, but their adventures will occasionally return them to their homecity, where i will say things like: "you now have 2 days of free time before you go off again, so you have plenty of time for selling loot, buying new equipment, sculpting and everything you would like.

[navar100]

An alternative idea is to let his sculpting be part of his means of achieving wealth per level. You need to be careful not to shortchange the other players, but the idea is there is a little bit, not too much, less magic item treasure suitable to the character. He sells a sculpture for a goodly sum which he can later use to purchase a suitable item at a suitable time as the game permits. The player feels accomplishment that he's becoming known as a famous sculptor because people want his work. The character is getting treasure he would have gotten anyway. The only difference is the how which has the side benefit of improving a player's engagement with the gameworld.

[Deophaun]

So, what would be the DC to make a fancy sculpture?
What is fancy? We can assume it's not typical. Is it high-quality, or is it superior? That tells you the DC; 15 or 20.

And here's the thing: it doesn't matter. If you can reliably get a check of 20, you will make the exact same amount of gold if you make typical statues quickly as you would if you spent the time making extraordinary statues. It's simply not worth fretting about. Meanwhile, someone who can get a reliable check of 25 won't bother making superior pieces. They'll just make a lot of high-quality pieces, because 25*25 is more than 25*20.