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Ramza00
2007-01-05, 08:25 PM
Okay the Complete Scoundrel excerpts are out. This post is about the feats and power increases, if you want to talk about the new prestige class the Master of Masks check out this thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31144


This book is going to be a major power creep for many classes, probably far worse than complete mage, maybe as bad as complete divine for cheese clerics. Look at these feats. The full list is here

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=2

I am just doing a quick selection from the full list of feats in the excerpt of what seems powerful with a quick glance and posting it here.

Daring Outlaw
Pre Req: Grace +1, sneak attack +2d6
Benefit: Rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for grace, dodge bonus, and sneak attack

Daring Warrior2
Pre Req: Grace +1, Weapon Specialization
Benefit: Fighter and swashbuckler levels stack for grace, dodge bonus, and feats

Improved Skirmish[3]
Pre Req: Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC
Benefit: Move 20 feet to gain +2d6 points of damage, +2 AC (Think Unseen Seer with fly or something)

Martial Stalker[2]
Pre Req: Proficiency with all martial weapons, ki power
Benefit: Fighter and ninja levels stack for ki pool, AC bonus, and feats

Master Spellthief
Pre Req: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, steal spell
Benefit: Spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack for steal spell and arcane caster level; cast arcane spells in light armor

Swift Hunter[3]
`Favored enemy, skirmish +1d6/+1 AC , sneak attack +1d6
Ranger and scout levels stack for skirmish bonuses, favored enemies

Swift Ambusher[3]
Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC
Rogue and scout levels stack for skirmish bonuses

Now look at the skill tricks and drool
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 08:32 PM
YEAH I KNOW ZOMG. I totally want to play a Spellthief/Sorceror with the Master Spellthief feat now. Maybe even PrC into Occult Slayer for extra strange.

Ramza00
2007-01-05, 08:41 PM
Some selections, full list here
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5

Nimble Charge
Pre Reqs: Balance 5 ranks
Benefits: Run or charge across difficult surface without Balance check
(Oh this is great for the barbarian, frenzied berserker)

Extreme Leap
Pre Reqs: Jump 5 ranks
Benefits: Horizontal jump of at least 10 feet allows 10 extra feet of movement that round

Acrobatic Backstab
Pre Reqs: Tumble 12 ranks
Benefits: Move through foe's space to render it flat-footed
(Rogues will love this feat, and it would go really well with the gnome that kills giants build Logicninja made months ago and post on this board)

Swift Concentration
Pre Reqs: Concentration 12 ranks
Benefits: Maintain concentration on spell as swift action
(Used to take a feat, extraordinary concentration)

Magical Appraisal
Pre Reqs: Appraise 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks
Benefits: Determine properties of magic items
(Not available till 9th lvl, but it gets rid of some of the annoying identify spells at that lvl, remember this comic? )
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0116.html

Listen to This
Pre Reqs: Listen 5 ranks
Benefits: Perfectly repeat what you've recently heard
(Just plain cool)

Clarity of Vision
Pre Reqs: Spot 12 ranks
Benefits: Notice invisible enemies for 1 round
(This may be useful, I wonder what type of action if any it is?)

Whip Climber
Pre Reqs: Use Rope 5 ranks, proficiency with whip
Benefits: Use a whip as a grappling hook
(Just plain cool)

Shrouded Dance
Pre Reqs: Hide 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks
Benefits: Use move action to gain concealment for 1 round
(Useful for any rogue available at lvl 5)

False Theurgy
Pre Reqs: Bluff or Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Benefits: Your spell appears to be another spell of the same level
(NICE!!!)

Conceal Spellcasting
Pre Reqs: Concentration 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 5 ranks, Spellcraft 1 rank
Benefits: Conceal your spellcasting from onlookers
(Will this be more valuable for DMs or PCs, the story possibilities *devil*)

Social Recovery
Pre Reqs: Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks
Benefits: Make Bluff check to replace a failed Diplomacy check
(The party loves the party face :smallsmile: )

Second Impression
Pre Reqs: Bluff 5 ranks, Disguise 5 ranks
Benefits: Make Bluff check to reestablish blown disguise
(DMs will hate this, Nale must have complete scoundrel :smallwink: )

Ramza00
2007-01-05, 08:48 PM
Sigh the fighter class became an even more no more than 4 lvls class. Why play it when you can do Swashbuckler 16/Fighter 4 with the Daring Warrior feat. Unlike the other multiclass feats new combos, swashbuckler gives d10 hps, good fort, and good bab and 4 skill points per lvl so there is really no reason to take this class besides the "fighter only" feats in PHB2.

Skyserpent
2007-01-05, 08:54 PM
Sigh the fighter class became an even more no more than 4 lvls class. Why play it when you can do Swashbuckler 16/Fighter 4 with the Daring Warrior feat. Unlike the other multiclass feats new combos, swashbuckler gives d10 hps, good fort, and good bab and 4 skill points per lvl so there is really no reason to take this class besides the "fighter only" feats in PHB2.

Eh... Swashbucklers weren't worth much more than a dip in the first place. And Fighters aren't worth 4 levels yet, I think it's still just the 2. Specialization is poor unless you get all the way to Supremacy...

Ramza00
2007-01-05, 09:01 PM
Eh... Swashbucklers weren't worth much more than a dip in the first place. And Fighters aren't worth 4 levels yet, I think it's still just the 2. Specialization is poor unless you get all the way to Supremacy...
Fighters have always been poor full classes, and the only time you take more than 4 lvls of fighter is if you need alot of feats "in a hurry" (fighter 2/psi war 2 is another good way to get lots of feats in a hurry) such as a tripper/aoo king. Of course this very limited use of a fighter, but still a very useful purpose is now changed.

Remember people, spiked chain is a finessable weapon and thus works with swashbuckler, spiked chain is a great trip/aoo weapon, and the chain also works with the shadowhand feat that does dex to damage.

Adding 1 lvl of Swordsage since to make the shadowhand feat requirement simpler, plus you get weapon focus spiked chain making your weapon specialization costs easier, followed by a 2nd lvl of swordsage later for Wis to AC in light armor since many of the swordsage abilities only work in light armor or less.

oriong
2007-01-05, 09:04 PM
...I have to say I practically don't believe Daring Warrior is real. It sounds just too absolutely insane.

I know some bad ideas have been created in the past but...still it just doesn't seem like it is possible that a decision that flawed could exist. I'd much rather believe that the text of the ability is a typo or is misleading.

Grace and dodge bonus stacking...I can sort of see that, it's not insane at least...but stacking for the purposes of bonus feats? can this possibly, in any sane universe be true? Especially when the other class is very close to functionally identical to Fighter otherwise.

BCOVertigo
2007-01-05, 09:06 PM
Um, what in the name of sweet Wee Jas is wrong with you people? Nobody mentioned the greatest feat in the book, Throat Punch!

Throat Punch
Improved Unarmed Strike, sneak attack +3d6

Trade 2d6 sneak attack damage to hinder target's speech, sneak attack +3d6 for 3 rounds.


Time for a liberal application of smackdown.

Ramza00
2007-01-05, 09:13 PM
Spellthief1/Sorc4/UnseenSeer10/AT5
with Arcane Reserve feat, Master Spellthief (can steal up to 9th lvl spells, can't tell if you can use those spell lvls to power your spells or just recast them) and Practiced Spellcaster just became a good "Dungeon crawling"/"Endurance Caster." Does 7d6 sneak attack damage at lvl 20, about 14d6 or 15d6(with an additional caster lvl from an item or magic tatoo) with the advanced learning hunter's eye persisted.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-01-05, 09:15 PM
WOOO WEEE! I gotta get me this book. Rogue was the first ever class I played and is still up there with Psion for me. These bring full throttle the enthusiasm I used to have for the class.

Ramza00
2007-01-05, 09:15 PM
Um, what in the name of sweet Wee Jas is wrong with you people? Nobody mentioned the greatest feat in the book, Throat Punch!

I am human and I miss small things :smallwink:

Now WOTC balance staff on the other hand can't use this excuse.

Ryuuk
2007-01-05, 09:17 PM
...I have to say I practically don't believe Daring Warrior is real. It sounds just too absolutely insane.

I know some bad ideas have been created in the past but...still it just doesn't seem like it is possible that a decision that flawed could exist. I'd much rather believe that the text of the ability is a typo or is misleading.

Grace and dodge bonus stacking...I can sort of see that, it's not insane at least...but stacking for the purposes of bonus feats? can this possibly, in any sane universe be true? Especially when the other class is very close to functionally identical to Fighter otherwise.

I thought this was in reference to feat prerequisites, not bonus feats. As in, you could be Swash 2/Fighter 2 and still take Specialization. I don't think it's for bonus feats, that would make the entire fighter class useless, since it's all they get. It'll probably be cleared out in the actual text for the feat.

Skyserpent
2007-01-05, 09:22 PM
...I have to say I practically don't believe Daring Warrior is real. It sounds just too absolutely insane.

I know some bad ideas have been created in the past but...still it just doesn't seem like it is possible that a decision that flawed could exist. I'd much rather believe that the text of the ability is a typo or is misleading.

Grace and dodge bonus stacking...I can sort of see that, it's not insane at least...but stacking for the purposes of bonus feats? can this possibly, in any sane universe be true? Especially when the other class is very close to functionally identical to Fighter otherwise.

No, no, no... It doesn't mean "Swashbucklers get all of the same bonus feats per level as Fighters" It's "You can use swashbuckler levels for "Weapon Specialization" and like feats"

I hope...

Edit: Gah! Simued...

(How'sit goin' Ryuuk?)

oriong
2007-01-05, 09:24 PM
then, not terribly insane. The 'fighter only' bonus feats weren't the draw of the class anyway, just a bit of extra incentive. Still quite good compared to some of the original 'class combo' feats though.

Ramza00
2007-01-05, 09:30 PM
No, no, no... It doesn't mean "Swashbucklers get all of the same bonus feats per level as Fighters" It's "You can use swashbuckler levels for "Weapon Specialization" and like feats"

I hope...


Somebody on the CO boards who says he has the book says it works that way and you don't actually get the feats. Hopefully it isn't someone lying.

Good :) Still some of the other class combos are still nice.

Ryuuk
2007-01-05, 09:33 PM
Dang, those skill tricks look like fun. Walk the Walls and Wall Jumper just brought images of a boss fight or two in Devil May Cry 3's Trickster style. Whip Climber turns you into Indiana Jones and I'm sure I've tried to do Leaping Climber before. And they all only cost 2 skill points...

(Fine really, twas my first Simu by the way)

Bosh
2007-01-05, 10:49 PM
Looks nice. A small power-up for some weak classes and multiclass combos and the skill trick thing looks incredibly cool. I love playing acrobatic meleers and this will give me all kinds of new fun things to do.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 11:16 PM
The best use I can see for the Master of Masks is using the Dragon mask to get a breath weapon to apply the breath-weapon-changing spells in the SpC to (like Stunning Breath, etc)--but that's probably best done with the Dragon Breath spell.

shaka gl
2007-01-06, 12:09 AM
So, a Ranger 5/Scout 5 with the Swift Hunter feat would get the Favored Enemys of a Ranger lvl 10 and the Skirmish of a Scout lvl 10???

Ramza00
2007-01-06, 01:14 AM
So, a Ranger 5/Scout 5 with the Swift Hunter feat would get the Favored Enemys of a Ranger lvl 10 and the Skirmish of a Scout lvl 10???

Correct. Ranger 6/Scout 4 may be a smarter move longer term though. Only reason you would want to end with Scout 5 is that you have to have evasion at lvl 5. Ranger will give you eventually evasion and two evasions don't yield you improved evasion.

JaronK
2007-01-06, 01:16 AM
Sadly, the Fighter multiclass feats do not give you any bonus feats, only the ability to take Greater Weapon Specialization. Crappy.

That said, the Monk/Ninja one means you can finally have a Ninja that's actually decent.

JaronK

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-06, 05:38 AM
Persistent Attacker
Sneak attack +5d6
Trade 4d6 sneak attack damage to allow sneak attack in next round

Fun. I can just see someone doing that now, with say, a Ninja. Flanking doesn't count? Who cares? I am now going to hit you, run back out of range, then hit you again next round, sacrifice some of the damage, etc. It's like the classic Ninja run-by slash trope all over again. :D

Leon
2007-01-06, 06:20 AM
Walk the Walls Climb 12 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks Run straight up wall for 1 round

for 2 skill points thats a better deal than the Psionic feat "Up the walls"

(for Non Psi PC's atleast)

Ikkitosen
2007-01-06, 07:54 AM
Skirmish gets some nice boosts too:

Improved Skirmish[3] Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC Move 20 feet to gain +2d6 points of damage, +2 AC

I never did like the whole Sparring Dummy/Eberron Rollerskates cheese, and this rewards you for being a "proper" Scout - with Greater Manyshot!

tarbrush
2007-01-06, 08:12 AM
...I have to say I practically don't believe Daring Warrior is real. It sounds just too absolutely insane.

I know some bad ideas have been created in the past but...still it just doesn't seem like it is possible that a decision that flawed could exist. I'd much rather believe that the text of the ability is a typo or is misleading.

Grace and dodge bonus stacking...I can sort of see that, it's not insane at least...but stacking for the purposes of bonus feats? can this possibly, in any sane universe be true? Especially when the other class is very close to functionally identical to Fighter otherwise.

It doesn't give you bonus feats. It means you count as fighter X for the purpose of things like weapon specialisation and supremacy and so forth.

Matthew
2007-01-06, 10:26 AM
Skirmish gets some nice boosts too:

Improved Skirmish[3] Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC Move 20 feet to gain +2d6 points of damage, +2 AC

I never did like the whole Sparring Dummy/Eberron Rollerskates cheese, and this rewards you for being a "proper" Scout - with Greater Manyshot!

Arggh... damn Greater Many Shot

Ikkitosen
2007-01-06, 10:27 AM
Arggh... damn Greater Many Shot

Had problems with Scouts then? :smallfrown: :smallwink:

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-06, 10:30 AM
GMS or not, it's not like Scouts will become some devastating combat force because of their Skirmish damage.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-06, 10:34 AM
Wow. That's pretty good stuff.

Daring Outlaw and Warrior look broken already. Rogue 1/Fighter1/Swashbuckler 18 with those two feats is powerful.

Khantalas
2007-01-06, 10:37 AM
Daring Outlaw and Warrior look broken already. Rogue 1/Fighter1/Swashbuckler 18 with those two feats is powerful.

It doesn't work?

Daring Warrior and Daring Outlaw both require at least four levels of fighter and rogue. You'd be Rogue 4 / Fighter 4 / Swashbuckler 12.

Although they're still good.

Machete
2007-01-06, 10:49 AM
for 2 skill points thats a better deal than the Psionic feat "Up the walls"

(for Non Psi PC's atleast)

I have a catfolk character in storage with 70 move at level 5.

Muahahaha

This is very abuseable.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-06, 10:51 AM
Oops, my mistake. Not as powerful as I thought, but still good.

Matthew
2007-01-06, 11:25 AM
Had problems with Scouts then? :smallfrown: :smallwink:

Nah, I just hate Greater Many Shot and it's physics defying greatness...

Ramza00
2007-01-06, 03:06 PM
Those multiclass fighter feats, may give you the bonus feats of the fighter. That was the original intent of the designer but WOTC may have edited them.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3264249&postcount=109
Part of the larger thread
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=184346&page=3&pp=40

I am wary until I see this book, there may be a lot of good ideas, and there may be alot of power creep (some classes need power creep though)

Fax Celestis
2007-01-06, 03:51 PM
Spellthief 2/Duskblade 4 with the Master Spellthief ability is WRONG.

JaronK
2007-01-06, 07:49 PM
Those multiclass fighter feats, may give you the bonus feats of the fighter. That was the original intent of the designer but WOTC may have edited them.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3264249&postcount=109
Part of the larger thread
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=184346&page=3&pp=40

I am wary until I see this book, there may be a lot of good ideas, and there may be alot of power creep (some classes need power creep though)

According to one guy who saw the book (and yeah, this is second hand) the feats do not give fighter bonus feats, so they're quite lame.

JaronK

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-07, 05:30 AM
Come on, a feat that gives you feats would be kind of broken. That's almost as bad as using skill points to increase your intelligence stat.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-07, 05:49 AM
I actually wouldn't mind if the author's actual intent was followed and it gave bonus feats. I mean, fighters and ninjas aren't exactly ZOMFG-broken at the minute. Although a fighter/monk/ninja with these feats would be a sight to behold....

Fax Celestis
2007-01-07, 05:16 PM
Still say Spellthief 2/Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5 would be terribly amusing with Master Spellthief. I'd have to tinker to optimize, but still.

Consider thus: Arcane Channeling a stolen spell of up to 9th level. Yoink a spell from your foe, then smack them with it upside the head.

Gralamin
2007-01-07, 05:57 PM
This looks amazing, Wizards is doing a very good job with their books lately.

JaronK
2007-01-07, 06:04 PM
Come on, a feat that gives you feats would be kind of broken. That's almost as bad as using skill points to increase your intelligence stat.

Not so. It's kind of like Vow of Poverty (which also gives feats, and is not at all broken... I defy you to find anyone who's played a VoP character of 10th level and up who will say it is!). Sure, you get a lot of bonus feats for your one feat, but there's a huge balancing factor. In the case of the Ninja/Fighter or Swashbuckler/Fighter feats, the balancing factor is that to get those feats, you have to be a very nearly pure Ninja or Swashbuckler the rest of the way, and those are two very underpowered pure martial classes. I would argue that had the base class Swashbuckler just had fighter bonus feats added in, it would still have been noticeably weaker than the Warblade at high level. As it stands, the Ninja is just a Rogue with less skillpoints and worse melee abilities (ouchie), and the Swashbuckler is a three level dip that's never worth going beyond level 3, so these classes could use the power up. Sure, it would mean fighters hardly ever get played, but WotC has, at least with the advent of Tome of Battle, finally admitted that Fighters really don't cut it and has steadily been releasing new Fighter-like base classes to replace that role that are much stronger.

So yeah, it's a balancing step... or at least it was intended to be. Sadly, they didn't follow through with it, so you're still never going to see a Swashbuckler 8.

JaronK

The_Snark
2007-01-07, 06:14 PM
Vow of Poverty is not broken because it only grants exalted feats, which are as a rule sub-par. If it gave, say, feats from the fighter bonus list, it could easily become absurdly broken.

But I digress. I don't think the feat does (or should) give the feats; what it really should be doing is letting fighter levels stack for purposes of sudden strike and ki powers/dodge bonuses and grace. That way, you can stay more or less even between the two, balancing the need for feats with the other class features of the swashbuckler/ninja.

Darrin
2007-01-08, 09:49 AM
The best use I can see for the Master of Masks is using the Dragon mask to get a breath weapon to apply the breath-weapon-changing spells in the SpC to (like Stunning Breath, etc)--but that's probably best done with the Dragon Breath spell.

A one-level dip into Master of Masks can get you +1d6 sneak damage. Doesn't cost any feats, either. Planning on retrofitting one of my Tome of Battle builds... optimizing sneak damage can be tricky.

Person_Man
2007-01-08, 10:38 AM
My guess is that many of the Theurge-like feats are not nearly as good as they appear to be.

Daring Warrior most likely stacks for Grace, Dodge bonus, and for the ability to qualify for Fighter specific feats. Thus, a Fighter 8/Swashbuckler 4 could qualify for Greater Weapon Specialization.

I'm guessing that Daring Outlaw is probably similar, except that your Swashbuckler levels would count as Rogue levels for overcoming Improved Uncanny Dodge.

The summaries are just worded poorly. Having said that, WotC also has a long history of publishing at least one wildly overpowered feat and prestige class per splat book. We'll just have wait and see what it is.

Thomas
2007-01-08, 10:56 AM
Um, what in the name of sweet Wee Jas is wrong with you people? Nobody mentioned the greatest feat in the book, Throat Punch!

Throat Punch
Improved Unarmed Strike, sneak attack +3d6

Trade 2d6 sneak attack damage to hinder target's speech, sneak attack +3d6 for 3 rounds.


Time for a liberal application of smackdown.

Looked like a pretty obvious typo (repeating "+3d6 sneak attack" from the second column in the third) to me. Corrected it'd be:

"Trade 2d6 sneak attack damage to hinder target's speech for 3 rounds."


It doesn't work?

Daring Warrior and Daring Outlaw both require at least four levels of fighter and rogue. You'd be Rogue 4 / Fighter 4 / Swashbuckler 12.

Although they're still good.

Swashbuckler is for dipping. It sucks as a class. You go Duelist as soon as possible, for insane unnamed AC bonuses and AC 70+ at 20th level (with Robilar's Gambit and Elusive Target - sweet).

The grace and the dodge abilities of the Swashbuckler suck. Daring Outlaw and Daring Warrior both look like completely worthless feats to me. What use are they, exactly? For the price of one feat, your 20th-level character (with really poor class choices; nothing but Fighter, Rogue, and Swashbuckler) will have... the equivalent of Dodge at +4 to AC, and +3 to Reflex saves. That's one wasted feat you could be spending on Elusive Target, Robilar's Gambit, or even Improved Disarm or Improved Trip.

codexgigas
2007-01-08, 03:51 PM
Daring Outlaw looks like it could be fun. A Swashbuckler 5/Rogue 10/Invisible Blade 5 with that feat would have a +4 to AC from Swashbuckler, if the PH2 variant for Dodge was taken, +5 AC from Invisible Blade, four iterative attacks, Int to damage, 11d6 sneak attack damage, trapfinding, and improved evasion. That's not bad at all (and is quite good, if your DM doesn't follow the errata on Invisible Blade).