Zceryll madness...

[visigani]

Am I reading this right? She grants the Binder the ability to permasummon any one creature that can be affected by the pseudonatural template?

In other words if my 12th lvl Binder summons a pseudo-natural whatever, that pseudonatural whatever stays summoned until killed or dismissed (or I have to rebind to Zceryll).

That can't possibly be the situation...

[Lanaya]

It doesn't explicitly state it, but it seems to be intended to just work as a summon monster spell, including the limited duration.

[Psyren]

Note that even in the absence of the implied duration, your summons can't last forever:


Effects created by the Binder's supernatural abilities end when the vestige leaves the Binder, or if the Binder dies while bound.

[mostlyharmful]

Note that even in the absence of the implied duration, your summons can't last forever:

That's still a hell of a lot more powerful than 1round/level though.

[mabriss lethe]

If I'm reading it right, By RAW, Anything summoned by Summon Alien lasts for the duration of the Bind since it does not directly reference Summon Monster spell, only saying that you may choose to summon creatures off of the Summon Monster list.

[Psyren]

That's still a hell of a lot more powerful than 1round/level though.

I know, I was just saying that even if you read it as not having the same duration as a SM spell, that it still wouldn't be permanent.

For shiggles, let's see - 1 monster every 30 seconds for 24 hours would get you... 2880 monsters I think. Then they all vanish and you get to start over.


If I'm reading it right, By RAW, Anything summoned by Summon Alien lasts for the duration of the Bind since it does not directly reference Summon Monster spell, only saying that you may choose to summon creatures off of the Summon Monster list.

There's also a line about "implied duration" though. So it depends on whether you consider referencing a spell by name and italicizing it to be an implication. I happen to think so, but others may not.

[mostlyharmful]

I know, I was just saying that even if you read it as not having the same duration as a SM spell, that it still wouldn't be permanent.

For shiggles, let's see - 1 monster every 30 seconds for 24 hours would get you... 2880 monsters I think. Then they all vanish and you get to start over.

Let's assume that they have a boredom threashold and things to do and are only willing to dedicate a single hour to summoning, it's also a reasonable assumption given you have to actually give them comands and line them up against something... so 1 monster every 30 seconds for an hour. 120 summons that don't go away or stop doing something when you order them. You could build the great wall of China in a week and demolish any dungeon in an afternoon... or build a city from scratch in a day, complete with wall, sewerage, defensive citadels, port, parks, lighthouse and little twee gnomes on the lawns....:smallcool:

[Feint's End]

To OP:

What the hell did you expect. This Vestige alone is pretty much the reason Binders are considered t2 (with access to it of course) :smallamused:.

[Psyren]

The line in question:


Some of the supernatural benefits granted by vestiges provide constant benefits once activated. If the duration of a particular effect is not stated or implied by the ability description, assume it is constant.

It's definitely not stated. If your DM agrees it's not implied either, congrats, 24 hour summons. But obviously there's no hard and fast rule or even guideline for what constitutes an "implication" in D&D.

[mabriss lethe]

There's also a line about "implied duration" though. So it depends on whether you consider referencing a spell by name and italicizing it to be an implication. I happen to think so, but others may not.

I assume you mean this.


Some of the supernatural abilities granted by vestiges
provide constant benefits once activated. If the duration
of a particular effect is not stated or implied by the ability
description, assume it is constant. Typically, binders take
a few moments to activate such abilities immediately after
making a pact with a vestige. Most effects that are not
constant can be used only once every 5 rounds (see the
ability description for details).

Don't get me wrong. If anyone were playing a Binder using Zceryll at my table, I'd probably enforce the same duration as the spell.

From the perspective of RAW, however, I'd argue that the duration of this effect is not implied by the text. It specifies rather narrowly how Summon Monster is to be referenced in relation to Summon Alien.


Summon Alien: You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon. Any creature you summon with this ability gains the pseudonatural template. Thus, at 10th level you could summon any creature from the summon monster I-V list. When you reach 14th level, you can summon any creature from the summon monster I-VII list. You can only summon creatures that can be affected by the pseudonatural template. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.

[Psyren]

From the perspective of RAW, however, I'd argue that the duration of this effect is not implied by the text.

That's the problem with an implication - it's subjective, by definition. What is implied to you may not appear so to me, and vice-versa. So it's up to the DM.

[Chronos]

Wait, I thought it specified that they last only 5 rounds.
<checks>
Hm, no, it doesn't say that at all. I'd still limit it to either 5 rounds, or to 1 round/level, though.

The part I find odd is:

You can only summon creatures that can be affected by the pseudonatural template.
I get the impression that whoever wrote that meant for it to be a meaningful limitation. But the pseudonatural template can be applied to any corporeal creature. Are there even any incorporeal creatures on the Summon Monster list?

Personally, I think I would houserule that you can only summon the creatures that would normally have the celestial or fiendish template when summoned, and you get pseudonatural instead of celestial or fiendish.

[JaronK]

Dear lord, I always thought it said you cast it as a Sorcerer of your Binder level, but it really doesn't say that or even imply that does it? It just tells you you can summon the creatures that a Sorcerer could.

It certainly looks like by RAW you get them until you stop binding Zcyrell. I mean, in any game where I allowed that insane vestige in the first place, I'd make it 1 round/binder level, but dear lord RAW is insane here.

...that vestige was rather poorly designed.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Personally, I think I would houserule that you can only summon the creatures that would normally have the celestial or fiendish template when summoned, and you get pseudonatural instead of celestial or fiendish.

Ugh, don't do that. That's the same mistake Alienist made, and it ruined what could have been a cool PrC utterly.


Dear lord, I always thought it said you cast it as a Sorcerer of your Binder level, but it really doesn't say that or even imply that does it?

Bold is subjective - certainly by referencing and italicizing the spell it implies it to me. Otherwise you could say - hey, it doesn't say it works like summon monster, so I can summon them in midair or inside someone's lungs or 200ft. away from me inside an open window etc.

[JaronK]

Bold is subjective - certainly by referencing and italicizing the spell it implies it to me. Otherwise you could say - hey, it doesn't say it works like summon monster, so I can summon them in midair or inside someone's lungs or 200ft. away from me inside an open window etc.

Well, by saying summon it does follow the general rules for summoning. But it doesn't ever use the summon monster rules for anything other than picking which monsters you get.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Well, by saying summon it does follow the general rules for summoning. But it doesn't ever use the summon monster rules for anything other than picking which monsters you get.

JaronK

Does it? The summoning subschool applies to spells, not supernatural abilities. Further, because this doesn't inherit from Summon Monster apparently, that means anything you summon can go on to use its own teleportation abilities and conjuring. It could even cast spells with an XP cost, so if you summon up an efreet with this it could grant wishes. I mean, while we're being over the top here.

[JaronK]

I would argue that it's implied that it uses the summoning rules (though by no means is it actually stated) because it uses summoning and there are generic rules that apply to summoning (even if you got Summon Monster as a Spell Like Ability, as some classes can). But at no point does it imply a duration here... there's no generic duration rules other than the Binder's native ones (which go until the vestige is unbound).

JaronK

[Psyren]

Even if you read it that way, you can still summon your monsters 100 miles away from your current location, or onto a different plane, because there is no range stipulated by the subschool, only in the spell. You simply have to designate the place. It doesn't even say how you designate it, so you could tape a map to a wall and throw darts.

[JaronK]

...You might be right about that implication.

I think we can both at least agree that it's poorly written, and that RAI was almost certainly that this ability was supposed to summon a creature exactly like a Sorcerer of your Binder level, including duration and range limits and the like.

Possibly it was intended that you get only one creature at a time, but it certainly doesn't say that. One way or another, whoever made that vestige screwed up royally.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Agreed. *handshake*

[visigani]

Wait, I thought it specified that they last only 5 rounds.
<checks>
Hm, no, it doesn't say that at all. I'd still limit it to either 5 rounds, or to 1 round/level, though.

The part I find odd is:

I get the impression that whoever wrote that meant for it to be a meaningful limitation. But the pseudonatural template can be applied to any corporeal creature. Are there even any incorporeal creatures on the Summon Monster list?

Personally, I think I would houserule that you can only summon the creatures that would normally have the celestial or fiendish template when summoned, and you get pseudonatural instead of celestial or fiendish.

This actually might be more balanced than people think. Note: It SPECIFICALLY states you can only summon monsters from the summon monster list.

So you can't summon just any old thing.

[Psyren]

This actually might be more balanced than people think. Note: It SPECIFICALLY states you can only summon monsters from the summon monster list.

So you can't summon just any old thing.

I don't think anyone was deviating from that list though. What's more, subsequent splats have expanded the list considerably over time, e.g. BoED and MM3.

[JaronK]

Some of those expanded things do crazy stuff, like the Divas from Fiend Folio. These are specifically summonable with Summon Monster, and one of them can cast Divination once per day. With Zceryll, that means you can cast Divination once per five rounds, and always from a different person (so you can double check to verify any information you want). That's incredibly strong.

JaronK

[Spuddles]

Some of those expanded things do crazy stuff, like the Divas from Fiend Folio. These are specifically summonable with Summon Monster, and one of them can cast Divination once per day. With Zceryll, that means you can cast Divination once per five rounds, and always from a different person (so you can double check to verify any information you want). That's incredibly strong.

JaronK

Doesnt divination have a material component?

[Psyren]

Doesnt divination have a material component?

It's an SLA for them isn't it? So it wouldn't have components. Summons only care about XP costs, not mats.

[Spuddles]

It's an SLA for them isn't it? So it wouldn't have components. Summons only care about XP costs, not mats.

Ah, my mistake.

[Coidzor]

...You might be right about that implication.

I think we can both at least agree that it's poorly written, and that RAI was almost certainly that this ability was supposed to summon a creature exactly like a Sorcerer of your Binder level, including duration and range limits and the like.

Possibly it was intended that you get only one creature at a time, but it certainly doesn't say that. One way or another, whoever made that vestige screwed up royally.

JaronK


Agreed. *handshake*

So how would one best alter the wording to fix it?

[Psyren]

So how would one best alter the wording to fix it?

I'd add something like:

"This functions as the summon monster spell of the appropriate level (for example, a 14th-level Binder would have access to summon monster VII), using your effective binder level as your sorcerer level, except you can only summon one creature at a time. If you use this ability again while another summon is active, the previous use of this ability immediately ends."

[JaronK]

Well, put an (Su) tag in the front of course. It's still a binder. And note that because of the all day healing and all day divinations and so on that this provides, the ability is still VERY powerful this way.

JaronK

[Emperor Tippy]

I would add a "usable effective binder level times per day" clause like a lot of the other vestiges have as well.

[Psyren]

Well, put an (Su) tag in the front of course.

You actually don't have to - vestige abilities are explicitly supernatural even when they duplicate spells and psionic powers. So "functioning as X spell" will still make it Su. This is stated on ToM 19, and repeated in the sidebar here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) as well.

[JaronK]

I know, but a lot of people don't understand implied typing. So I'd want to put the appropriate tags on absolutely everything, thus solving the problem.

I wouldn't limit it to "X uses per day" because that's not how Binders generally work (I know there are exceptions, but I don't like that). Honestly, it's just a very overpowered ability and they should have something else instead (like the ability to summon only a limited subset of creatures, or the creatures can't use their native Sp abilities, or something).

JaronK

[demigodus]

Even if you read it that way, you can still summon your monsters 100 miles away from your current location, or onto a different plane, because there is no range stipulated by the subschool, only in the spell. You simply have to designate the place. It doesn't even say how you designate it, so you could tape a map to a wall and throw darts.

Dear gods, this is awesome. Would make a horribly annoying BBEG for a party to fight.

[Emperor Tippy]

I know, but a lot of people don't understand implied typing. So I'd want to put the appropriate tags on absolutely everything, thus solving the problem.

I wouldn't limit it to "X uses per day" because that's not how Binders generally work (I know there are exceptions, but I don't like that). Honestly, it's just a very overpowered ability and they should have something else instead (like the ability to summon only a limited subset of creatures, or the creatures can't use their native Sp abilities, or something).

JaronK

Andras: Once per day Horse summon
Dantalion: Thought travel has a per day use limit
Karsus: Karsus's Touch has a per day use limit
Tenebrous: Vessel of Emptiness has a per day use limit

That is 12.5% of all vestiges in ToM, it's not exactly a rarity.

Granted, I never would have published Zceryll like that in the first place.

[Psyren]

Huh? X uses per day? I didn't say anything like that. I would have it work just like most other vestige active abilities, i.e. usable at-will but with a 5-round cooldown between uses, and with the fix I posted above (i.e. you can only have one creature out at a time.) EDIT: Ah, I see that came from Tippy.

One way to cut down on potential abuse would be to say - you can only summon a given creature once per pact. So if you summon a deva for its commune, you have to summon something else, but that something else may be communing with a different source for advice altogether, so take what it tells you with a grain of salt.

And given that these are all alien versions of the creature anyway - twisted reflections/copies - some of their divinations might actually pull info from the Far Realm instead of their normal boss. Could be useful, but then again, not necessarily trustworthy.

[Ramza00]

I'd add something like:

"This functions as the summon monster spell of the appropriate level (for example, a 14th-level Binder would have access to summon monster VII), using your effective binder level as your sorcerer level, except you can only summon one creature at a time. If you use this ability again while another summon is active, the previous use of this ability immediately ends."

I would also clarify the action type to summon, normal su is standard action, normal summon monster is 1 round

[visigani]

Thing is... the Binder in question gets no significant offensive abilities from Zceryll.

Telepathy, a "madness bolt" that's garbage, summon monster, and some resistance to mind affecting stuff.

Zceryll is garbage if you take away the summon, utter crap. Her "madness bolt" can be used once every five rounds... requires a will save AND a ranged touch attack and dazes for 1d3 rounds.

On a sixth level vestige? Are you f'ng kidding me?

[Elderand]

Thing is... the Binder in question gets no significant offensive abilities from Zceryll.

Telepathy, a "madness bolt" that's garbage, summon monster, and some resistance to mind affecting stuff.

Zceryll is garbage if you take away the summon, utter crap. Her "madness bolt" can be used once every five rounds... requires a will save AND a ranged touch attack and dazes for 1d3 rounds.

On a sixth level vestige? Are you f'ng kidding me?

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[Psyren]

No one's saying "take away the summon," but obviously if it lets you summon nearly 3000 monsters per day and drop them all in your enemy's fortress on another continent then something needs to be clarified in the wording.

[Coidzor]

No one's saying "take away the summon," but obviously if it lets you summon nearly 3000 monsters per day and drop them all in your enemy's fortress on another continent then something needs to be clarified in the wording.

Indeed, whether it's 1 at a time, refresh the ability every 5 rounds, lasts for binder level rounds and gain access to new levels of summon monster as if they were a sorcerer of their binder level gaining access to the relevant spell levels or it's however many as the spell at a time, refresh the ability every 5 rounds, lasts binder level rounds, and can be used X times per day seems to be the main point of difference right now?

[JaronK]

I think I'd make it so that the 5 round cool down doesn't start until the last summon has disappeared. That way you can't get an army, but you do get one per fight. No repeating of the same monster still makes it powerful, but not nearly as game breaking. Now it's just a nice vestige... you can start every fight with a summoned minion, and you get 1/day divination plus a bunch of other 1/day abilities, plus you get the detection radius. Much more sane.

JaronK

[Hangwind]

Yeah, I play Binders a lot, (lower Epic is AMAZING) and I generally enforce limits on myself.

Even the DM that generally wants us to play by RAW agrees with this one.

Mostly because I took an hour and summoned armies of pseudonatural monsters with orders to bring all of the 16-25 year old women with more than 13 CHA to me for a little fun.

Yeah, the ability REALLY needs some limitations.

[Emperor Tippy]

I think I'd make it so that the 5 round cool down doesn't start until the last summon has disappeared. That way you can't get an army, but you do get one per fight. No repeating of the same monster still makes it powerful, but not nearly as game breaking. Now it's just a nice vestige... you can start every fight with a summoned minion, and you get 1/day divination plus a bunch of other 1/day abilities, plus you get the detection radius. Much more sane.

JaronK

It's not 1/day divination or the like though. It's "any SLA that a summon has that lacks an XP cost" every minute or so under that system.

Zceryll's real problem isn't in combat (at least not if you don't let the summons last all day and be summoned anywhere you want without regard to line of effect or line of sight), it's in the out of combat abilities.

As it is, a daily limit of effective binder level is still going to give you enough to summon in every combat in the day (multiple times even as you are looking at a minimum of 12 uses per day) and have a number left over for utility and out of combat use.

[JaronK]

It's not 1/day divination or the like though. It's "any SLA that a summon has that lacks an XP cost" every minute or so under that system.

I did add in "No repeating of the same monster." Thus, only once per day.

JaronK