At What Age Does One Get an Alignment/Class?

[QuintonBeck]

Okay, so speaking in general D&D terms when does a sentient mortal being gain it's first level in a class and when does one develop an alignment?
Now, I know this kind of question doesn't really apply to your typical game, this is more of a thought exercise for myself and, hopefully, the Playground.

Alignment I suppose can be gained when one gains enough cognizant awareness to begin taking actions and recognizing them as either good, evil, lawful, or chaotic and vaulting one of these or failing to pursue any as the case may be. So I would then proffer that until such a point, like an animal, one's alignment is true neutral. Or does anyone propose that one is born with an innate alignment or destiny towards an alignment? Are Paladins born to be paladins or made to be paladins?

And on the case of paladins, and all classes in fact, when does one gain their first level? Surely it must be when they first enter this world otherwise they have no HP (barring races with racial HD) and if this is the case how is it chosen? Are all mortal races born into NPC classes at random or pre-selected or is there in fact classless beings under a certain age and then a class to pursue is selected in some rite of passage type ceremony? And why is it that so many adventurers begin at Level 1 in their early 20s? Considering the world in which most settings occur it seems most people would have, even if we are to accept the proposal that beings select a class at a certain point of cognizance, would have been operating at Level 1 for quite some time, since at least around the 14-16 year old mark if class selection is accepted.

Thoughts? As I said, I know this doesn't really apply to your typical game but it's been something that's been rolling through my head and I wanted to hear some other opinions and ideas.

[Flickerdart]

Each class has a listed random age, which also defines the earliest time someone could have a level in the class. Before then, they would be 1 HD humanoids, and that HD gets overridden as soon as they pick up a class level.

[Psyren]

Former: when you're old enough to know right from wrong.
Latter: use the starting age for your class, throw in the Ultimate Campaign rules if necessary.

[Angelalex242]

This is most relevant when the Cleric casts Holy Word in a populated area.

Does he kill most children when he does that, because Holy Word ganks those not good?

Or because it's HOLY word, do the Gods of Light sensibly protect children from human cleric stupidity?

[Vhaidara]

That could be an interesting world where you are born with a class level.

Wait, no.

That's a terrifying idea. The last thing the schoolyard bullies need is a level of monk or barbarian. Make it go away!

[Snowbluff]

That could be an interesting world where you are born with a class level.

Wait, no.

That's a terrifying idea. The last thing the schoolyard bullies need is a level of monk or barbarian. Make it go away!

The smart kids would just cast sleep and CDG them. :smalltongue:

[Angelalex242]

If schoolyard bullies had a level of monk or barbarian, there'd always be a classmate standing there glaring...

With a level of Paladin, and his buddy classmate with a level of cleric, equally glaring.

"Thus sayeth the LORD, thou shalt knocketh that off."

[A Tad Insane]

When you are first born, you have an alignment of TN, just like everything else with an INT below 3. As you age, it fluctuates, like it can as an adult, but way quicker, as you develop morals.
You gain a level in either aristocrat or commoner by the age 5, though this is a temporary level, and will change when you first enter your specie's adulthood, where it is open to all base classes, pc and npc alike, although you might be destined to be a level one wizard, it takes a bit of time to get there, where you are basically "being generated" for lack of a real term.

[Angelalex242]

Sure. But does that mean the cleric who speaks a Holy Word in the schoolyard essentially ganks the entire school (except the teacher?)

[Flickerdart]

This is most relevant when the Cleric casts Holy Word in a populated area.

Does he kill most children when he does that, because Holy Word ganks those not good?

Or because it's HOLY word, do the Gods of Light sensibly protect children from human cleric stupidity?
Babies within 40 feet of an 11+ level cleric using Holy Word, Dictum, or any other spells of the type are killed instantly, yes. But then, the same thing happens if they are caught in the area of a Flame Strike. This is also not very common, as 11+ characters are explicitly legendary and are not likely to hang around every orphanage (unless you're in Faerun, but it's a silly place).

[JusticeZero]

Using PF, I give all unclassed people 2+int skill points, no class skills, 6+con hp (1d6, the lowest), low everything. When you are trained in anything that gives you a class level, you get a few more HP, class skills, maybe more skill points, and some things are bumped onto better tracks. it just seems to work better that way.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Children are always chaotic evil.

[QuintonBeck]

Ah, I completely missed the Humanoid Type (I didn't imagine monstrous progression on humanoids but it does make sense in this context) though reading it as written is a little strange as the entry on the SRD says


Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.
Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.

"Only" implies that if you have only 1 HD you can't make use of the humanoid type and therefore must have a class but that seems wholly wrong and confusing.

Good Gods! (pun intended) Holy Word could be a massacre! That is a horrifying prospect.

[Spore]

Children are always chaotic evil.

That great joke aside, I would start all babies as perfectly neutral. But this is a discussion as old as philosophy itself.

[Psyren]

"Only" implies that if you have only 1 HD you can't make use of the humanoid type and therefore must have a class but that seems wholly wrong and confusing.

What's wrong about it? If you have 1HD you replace it with your class. If you have more than one, you add the class on after. It's pretty straightforward.

There are several humanoids with multiple humanoid RHD, e.g. Lizardfolk and Troglodytes.

[Scow2]

I've always treated it as alignment being inherited from the parents until the Age of Reason. Otherwise, why the heck is Roy's younger brother in the LG afterlife, despite his young age?

On this note - yes, babies born to Evil creatures still go to the Evil afterlives, but are protected by their race's Deity.

[Psyren]

I would say the deity of death protects them in that latter case - I wouldn't want, say, Lolth or Shar to be ward over any child spirits. Let Kelemvor or Wee Jas or Pharasma deal with it.

They would arguably have jurisdiction anyway, since the children wouldn't have had time to perform any deeds or even choose a deity. And they could then simply recycle the soul for another shot.

A good deity would intercede, simply because the deserved afterlife of the good family would be improved by having their untimely dead child brought to them. And conversely, an evil deity would not, simply because the afterlife of their torture victims would be worsened/made bleaker by the absence of their children, hastening the petitioner's abandonment of worldly ties and its conversion into a fiendish soldier.

[Urpriest]

IMO, the rules for Giant Children establish precedent here. Giant Children only have stats because Giants have enough RHD for them to be meaningful combatants. Giants below a certain age are "noncombatants". Note that they don't say "have 1 HD and don't take actions, use Shrieker stats" or anything like that, they say "noncombatants". As in, they aren't part of combat. You can't use combat abilities on them, because that would mean engaging them in combat. That includes spells that deal damage or kill, etc.

Since humans don't have any RHD, no humans below adult age should be thought of as combatants.

That means the answer to the question "what happens if a cleric casts Holy Word in an orphanage" is "this just isn't that type of game". D&D is pretty damn lighthearted about a lot of things, and as far as I can see intentionally doesn't give you rules that let you engage in combat with human children.

[Flickerdart]

A good deity would intercede, simply because the deserved afterlife of the good family would be improved by having their untimely dead child brought to them. And conversely, an evil deity would not, simply because the afterlife of their torture victims would be worsened/made bleaker by the absence of their children, hastening the petitioner's abandonment of worldly ties and its conversion into a fiendish soldier.
Surely seeing their child suffer alongside them would be worse? I imagine that this would very much depend on the god in question.

Also, in Faerun, would dead babies not be sent to the Wall of the Faithless?

[A Tad Insane]

Bring the afterlife into this opens a whole new can of worms, considering there are so many canon versions, not including how most people use a homebrewed version.

[Psyren]

Surely seeing their child suffer alongside them would be worse? I imagine that this would very much depend on the god in question.

Undoubtedly it would, but if the child itself has done nothing wrong that would be a violation of the Pact Primeval (or similar compact for other settings.)



Also, in Faerun, would dead babies not be sent to the Wall of the Faithless?

No - FRCS:


While most souls wander the Fugue Plane until their deity calls them, the Faithless and the False are compelled to enter the city and be judged by Kelemvor. The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing. The False intentionally betrayed a faith they believed in and to which they had made a personal commitment.

Both Faithless and False require conscious, or at least active, denial. Children aren't capable of either, so Kelemvor would decide their fate.

[TuggyNE]

This is most relevant when the Cleric casts Holy Word in a populated area.

Don't use spells with collateral damage in populated areas. Problem solved.

[13_CBS]

The smart kids would just cast sleep and CDG them. :smalltongue:

So the schoolyard bullies of D&D would be nerds? Wait, I'm a nerd...

...

VINDICATION AT LAST

"Gimme your lunch money, punk, or I'll hit you with Color Spray!"

(Incidentally, Cause Fear is a Level 1 spell.)

[Angelalex242]

Personally, if, say, a gelbrazou showed up at an orphanage, and the cleric who wasn't thinking goes, "GTFO, HOLY WORD!" I think the GM should say, "You feel the hand of your god over your mouth and a voice going shut UP you idiot, kids aren't holy enough to hear that word!"

Alternatively, the Cleric turns to the Dark Side (Anakin killing the younglings style) and his alignment instantly becomes evil.

(considering holy word is a 7th level spell, the minimum HD to cast it normally is 13th...so not just kids die, but random city guards, random merchants, random farmers walking down the street...) (anyone with 3HD or less...)

[Psyren]

Guys, just buy this. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness) It's not only for Paladins. Then think "Hey, should I cast Holy Word this round?" and look your DM square in the eye.

[Pickford]

Angelalex242:

This is most relevant when the Cleric casts Holy Word in a populated area.

Does he kill most children when he does that, because Holy Word ganks those not good?

Or because it's HOLY word, do the Gods of Light sensibly protect children from human cleric stupidity?

Presumably a wise Cleric wouldn't do this unless there were some fate worse than death in the offing (say, a horde of undead or demons) and there were no particularly reasonable alternatives at hand. That being said, in D&D killing isn't, in and of itself, an aligned act. (i.e. Murder is evil, but Killing is not. Tu comprende?)

Psyren:

I would say the deity of death protects them in that latter case - I wouldn't want, say, Lolth or Shar to be ward over any child spirits.

This part might be of service (phb 171):

When a living creature dies, its soul ... goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides. If the creature did not worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment.

So as child spirits are unlikely to have begun actual worship, they would go where their alignments dictate. (A good argument for being good)
If I recall correctly, their spirits eventually merge with the planes themselves, so I wouldn't worry overly.

UrPriest:

That means the answer to the question "what happens if a cleric casts Holy Word in an orphanage" is "this just isn't that type of game". D&D is pretty damn lighthearted about a lot of things, and as far as I can see intentionally doesn't give you rules that let you engage in combat with human children.

Seconded, largely. I mean...yes, there is the BoVD which has a villain who uses human orphans to power his spells (and I think they are statted out), but sure.

[Ruethgar]

Some mentally ill children may have their own alignment earlier than others(a sociopath may well be born NE or CE) but I would say most are true neutral or neutral good and start developing an alignment of their own in their toddler and childhood years.

[Psyren]

So as child spirits are unlikely to have begun actual worship, they would go where their alignments dictate. (A good argument for being good)
If I recall correctly, their spirits eventually merge with the planes themselves, so I wouldn't worry overly.

Well, for starters the PHB line refers only to Greyhawk (and Oerth I guess), not Faerun/Golarion/Eberron/Ravenloft/etc.

Also, the "merging with the plane" happens on the evil planes too actually - after decades/centuries of nonstop torture. It's not necessarily a peaceful process nor even a blessed release, because once that happens they're free to make a mane/dretch/other larval fiend out of you.

[Prince Raven]

Having recently kicked a 3-year-old out of a petting zoo for kicking the rabbits, I'd say kids start off at true neutral and their alignment changes based on their behaviour just like anyone else.
As far as class goes, easy, the minimum age for the class in question.

[hamishspence]

IMO, the rules for Giant Children establish precedent here. Giant Children only have stats because Giants have enough RHD for them to be meaningful combatants. Giants below a certain age are "noncombatants". Note that they don't say "have 1 HD and don't take actions, use Shrieker stats" or anything like that, they say "noncombatants". As in, they aren't part of combat. You can't use combat abilities on them, because that would mean engaging them in combat. That includes spells that deal damage or kill, etc.

That said, the rules allow for Giant children up to two sizes smaller than their parents as combatants.

In human terms, that would be like a 2ft tall child. Basically, a toddler.

[lordzya]

There are stats for children (-3 str, -3 con, -1 other stats, small) and adolescents (-1 all stats) in the star wars d20 rules. I also don't take the whole not training for a class until you're 15 think as gospel in all cases. Most settings are full of conflict, so almost no one can live in a sheltered bubble for that long. Some people could begin training at 8, have their first adventures at 15 and be level 3 by the time the rules say you get a class. (also, a level 3 feels more like an adult when you are actually playing it, and a level 1 feels like a child, from experience.)

[hamishspence]

D20 Modern had 10 as the minimum age a PC could be- though most backgrounds demand an older age.

Quite a few D&D novel characters start their careers much earlier than the PHB would suggest - usually elves though.

[Scow2]

So as child spirits are unlikely to have begun actual worship, they would go where their alignments dictate. (A good argument for being good)
If I recall correctly, their spirits eventually merge with the planes themselves, so I wouldn't worry overly.Actually, children tend to be the most devout and faithful worshipers of a deity.


There are stats for children (-3 str, -3 con, -1 other stats, small) and adolescents (-1 all stats) in the star wars d20 rules. I also don't take the whole not training for a class until you're 15 think as gospel in all cases. Most settings are full of conflict, so almost no one can live in a sheltered bubble for that long. Some people could begin training at 8, have their first adventures at 15 and be level 3 by the time the rules say you get a class. (also, a level 3 feels more like an adult when you are actually playing it, and a level 1 feels like a child, from experience.)You need to recalibrate. Level 1 is "Adult" - remember, the average Hobgoblin (Which is larger and tougher than the average human) has only 5-9 HP. In D&D, you start as "Exceptional" and only go up from there.

[Psyren]

Actually, children tend to be the most devout and faithful worshipers of a deity.

This gets into how much of what a child does is worship and how much is rote repetition of what the adults tell him/her to do. Which is really, really likely to get the thread shuttered.

[Kajhera]

This gets into how much of what a child does is worship and how much is rote repetition of what the adults tell him/her to do. Which is really, really likely to get the thread shuttered.

How much of what an adult does is worship and how much is rote repetition of what an adult tells him/her to do? :smalltongue: If you believe you believe, even if their alignment's true neutral and actual moral action is following along with prescribed guidelines rather than actively choosing -
- wait, deontological ethics are following along with prescribed guidelines rather than constantly figuring it out. Lawful-aligned persons do have moral faculties, right? >>'

I would generally say that kids start out as true neutral and are most likely to belong to whatever church claims them first, until they choose otherwise. Until they have developed moral faculties it's a lot harder to shift them away from true neutral, but that's a gradual process. Sticking with their family in the afterlife is kind of important, souls don't fade immediately... though if a child's too young to believe at all reincarnation does seem likely. Also, evil deities don't always torture and make petitioners into fiends - Kurtulmak gives worthy kobolds a home in the tunnels mining the bounty of Hell and reincarnates the rest, for example, into kobolds again for those who served their tribe well and domestic dire weasels for those who did not do their time in the previous life.

[Psyren]

How much of what an adult does is worship and how much is rote repetition of what an adult tells him/her to do? :smalltongue:

It's still a conscious choice on the adult's part. Children don't get to choose, and I'm certain the majority of them would rather be outside playing or at home with a favorite video game or book than stuck in SS all morning. And because they don't get to choose, they can't be held responsible for their piety (or lack thereof.)

[Urpriest]

That said, the rules allow for Giant children up to two sizes smaller than their parents as combatants.

In human terms, that would be like a 2ft tall child. Basically, a toddler.

Yes, but only those giants with enough RHD. My point is that humans, being RHD 0, are noncombatants all the way up to adolescent.

[hamishspence]

Assuming they follow that system, that is.

Pathfinder had another option:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1

And Cityscape had stats for a Mob of Children (size Small for individual members of the Mob).

[Urpriest]

Assuming they follow that system, that is.

Pathfinder had another option:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1

And Cityscape had stats for a Mob of Children (size Small for individual members of the Mob).

Yeah, Pathfinder just straight-up has Children rules, analogously with Star Wars d20.

I hadn't noticed Cityscape's Mob of Children. That's...interesting. It indicates both that children are CN (makes sense...) and that they are apparently absurdly destructive, dealing between 3d6 and 5d6 damage to those sharing their space depending on which section of the statblock you read.