Mystic or Psionic Monk Info Needed

[FullmetalGamer]

Hello All,

I was wondering if there were any good types of these classes, a monk build with either spells or psionic powers added onto their list or something like that. I am looking for the idea of a Monk who can wield mental or mystic powers at least the same as a hybrid caster if not more.

[Psyren]

There's a ton of ways to get this kind of thing. 3.5 or PF?

[holywhippet]

The complete arcane and complete divine books are what you want for arcane and divine magic augmented monks. They have the PrCs enlightened fist and sacred fist (IMO the latter is much better).

For psionics and monks you really want a few more books, try this guide: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Psionic_Monk_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29

[Guyver87]

If You are looking for something for 3.5, the best option would be always popular Tashalatora Monk.

Basically by taking two Feats (Monastic Training, Tashalatora) and then multiclassing into a psionic class, You can count levels in said class as the Monk levels to determine your AC bonus, flurry of blows attacks, and unarmed damage.

So, in a nutshell You get most of the Monk's class features, and psionic powers.

Edit: Swordsages, Swordsages everywhere...

[holywhippet]

It's a pity you can't get the class abilities of the monk without levelling up as a monk though. They might not be useful at all times, but some would be nice to have.

[FullmetalGamer]

Either is good its 3.P

I never understood why there is not a strict Monk Spell List due to monks having loads of mystical powers.

[JusticeZero]

"Monk spell list" sounds like either a Psionic Warrior or (PF) Gifted Blade Soulknife power list, honestly. They both fit really well.

[Psyren]

It's a pity you can't get the class abilities of the monk without levelling up as a monk though. They might not be useful at all times, but some would be nice to have.

Tashalatora does actually let you keep many of the monk's class features even while you multiclass into something else. Specifically, you keep the AC bonus, unarmed damage, and flurry progression of a full monk.

[FullmetalGamer]

I am surprised PF didn't have an Archetype for them.

[Psyren]

I am surprised PF didn't have an Archetype for them.

It does actually (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-options/monk/enlightened-monk) :smalltongue:

But psionics is being handled in PF by a different company, Dreamscarred Press. They also updated and vastly improved the Psychic Fist. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/psychic-fist) They're 3rd-party but the quality is top-notch.

There is an official archetype for magical monks though - Qinggong, from Ultimate Magic.

[FullmetalGamer]

Thats interesting but its not a full psionic built its just a boost to the stunning fist dynamic.

Also I was meaning for Mystic.

I mean like give them a 6th level or whatever spell list

Monk should be far more badass then it is given credit for.

I don't get Monastic Training, is it just a multiclass thing I didn't think a feat was required.

[holywhippet]

Tashalatora does actually let you keep many of the monk's class features even while you multiclass into something else. Specifically, you keep the AC bonus, unarmed damage, and flurry progression of a full monk.

Yeah, but I meant things like the immunities to disease an poison, slow fall, improved evasion etc. They are only useful on occasion, but very useful when they crop up. Ki strike is of variable usefulness since a monk with magic/psionics will likely have other options.

[Psyren]

Thats interesting but its not a full psionic built its just a boost to the stunning fist dynamic.

Also I was meaning for Mystic.

I mean like give them a 6th level or whatever spell list

Monk should be far more badass then it is given credit for.

I don't get Monastic Training, is it just a multiclass thing I didn't think a feat was required.

If it's full manifesting you want you'll need a multiclass for that, for the same reason that rogues don't just get wizard spells out of nowhere. (Well, Ninjas get a few but that's besides the point.)


Yeah, but I meant things like the immunities to disease an poison, slow fall, improved evasion etc. They are only useful on occasion, but very useful when they crop up. Ki strike is of variable usefulness since a monk with magic/psionics will likely have other options.

All of that is stuff you can replicate with psionics - there's no need to get them from the class.

Ki strike is unnecessary in PF - a simple Amulet of Mighty Fists will let you overcome all kinds of DR on its own.

[FullmetalGamer]

How does Monastic Training work?
Is it a simple Multiclassing feat, I didn't think it was required.

The Qinggong Monk seems cool but is it a straight replacement of those class features or does it work differently? I could see it being very useful if it was once a day to replace all the features with spells, feats, or powers each day.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, question.

If you Talashtora Psychic Fist, what happens?

[holywhippet]

How does Monastic Training work?
Is it a simple Multiclassing feat, I didn't think it was required.


If you take it, you can select a class. Levelling up in that class does not prevent you from taking more levels in monk as well. Generally you can't level up as a monk if you level up in another class.

It is a prerequisite for the Tashalatora feat.

Do note of course that the source book for that feat is Eberron specific so some DMs might not allow it in a non Eberron campaign.

[Psyren]

How does Monastic Training work?
Is it a simple Multiclassing feat, I didn't think it was required.

Normally if you multiclass out of monk it is a one-way trip. Monastic Training lets you go back to monk afterward. Further, if that class also has multiclass restrictions (e.g. Paladin), Monastic Training waives those as well.



The Qinggong Monk seems cool but is it a straight replacement of those class features or does it work differently? I could see it being very useful if it was once a day to replace all the features with spells, feats, or powers each day.

It replaces them entirely, but you choose which ones. So you could keep Slow Fall and ditch Purity of Body for instance. This is why Qinggong can be combined with almost any other archetype.


Okay, question.

If you Talashtora Psychic Fist, what happens?

Good question. Seems like your monk abilities would stack twice.

[FullmetalGamer]

Oh ok, I forgot some classes have that rule on their list.

If you house ruled the Qinggong's replacement power to be like a Wizard's in that it can only change its abilities once a day or maybe with a full round action would that make it too broken?

Are there any feats that allow a character to gain spells or spell slots or anything like that in either game?

[lsfreak]

Okay, question.

If you Talashtora Psychic Fist, what happens?

Inevitables. Inevitables happen.


If you house ruled the Qinggong's replacement power to be like a Wizard's in that it can only change its abilities once a day or maybe with a full round action would that make it too broken?
Unless I've terribly misunderstood, qinggong permanently replaces abilities, but you get to choose which ones. Switching out doesn't come into it unless you're using retraining rules regularly. EDIT: Of course as soon as I saw this I realized I completely misread it. I don't know much about PF, but at a glance it doesn't look like it would be a problem.

[Psyren]

If you house ruled the Qinggong's replacement power to be like a Wizard's in that it can only change its abilities once a day or maybe with a full round action would that make it too broken?

Many of the powers are feats or monk abilities, would you let the character swap those out daily?

Personally I would rely on the retraining rules if the player wanted to swap their powers out like that.



Unless I've terribly misunderstood, qinggong permanently replaces abilities, but you get to choose which ones. Switching out doesn't come into it unless you're using retraining rules regularly. EDIT: Of course as soon as I saw this I realized I completely misread it. I don't know much about PF, but at a glance it doesn't look like it would be a problem.

This answer looked fine to me.

[FullmetalGamer]

Well as long as the feats and such where restricted to the list given, and as long as you made a ruling that they could not use those fluid feats for prereqs for other feats. As for Monk abilities, it typically only lets them use the ones normally obtained at those levels.

Any other ideas?

[Psyren]

Well as long as the feats and such where restricted to the list given, and as long as you made a ruling that they could not use those fluid feats for prereqs for other feats. As for Monk abilities, it typically only lets them use the ones normally obtained at those levels.

*Shrug* That's up to you.



Any other ideas?

You got the big ones - Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist, Tashalatora, Psychic/Psionic Fist. There's also Zerth Cenobite but we don't really talk about that one.

[Fax Celestis]

Inevitables. Inevitables happen.

http://i.imgur.com/hbcHDMf.png

[(Un)Inspired]

Okay, question.

If you Talashtora Psychic Fist, what happens?

The universe collapses into a monk singularity

I think WOTC wanted their monks to be bad assed and to have mystic, supernatural powers and they realized they failed. That's why they created the swordsage. Not only does the swordsage get the most "magical" maneuvers but they even have the unarmed and arcane variant options to make them more monk like and more wizard like.

[FullmetalGamer]

So you saying if I want to play a monk with magical powers to play a Swordsage?

[(Un)Inspired]

So you saying if I want to play a monk with magical powers to play a Swordsage?

I recommend at least taking a look at it. I think it's the right class for a mystic Kung fu guy. I also think a tashalatora psychic warrior would fit what youre looking for but that requires some multiclassing and at least one completely useless feat if youre playing with pathfinder rules.

For extreme single class simplicity I think the swordsage is your best bet.

[holywhippet]

So you saying if I want to play a monk with magical powers to play a Swordsage?

Magical powers is a vague description. The monk PrCs like sacred and enlightened fist give you magical powers on top of actual spellcasting. The Tome of Battle was an attempt to make the fighter classes more comparable to the caster classes by giving them special abilities.

[Feint's End]

I'd personally play a Wisdom based Gifted Blade Psionic Fist Soulknife.

Get a Psicrystal for Alertness at level 6 and Iron Will through Outyugh's Hole. Now pick Combat Expertise as your first level feat. Dip into Shiba Protector as fast as possible (level 7 in this build). Get Focused Defense (and make always sure you are psionically focused and have at least one point invested into Combat Expertise) and Focused Offense. Furthermore dip into Monk and replace Stunning Fist (or if you are allowed to use the PF Monk the bonusfeat) by Monastic Training (Soulknife). Make Tashalatora your 3rd levelfeat.

So at level 7 you look at Monk 1 / Soulknife 5 / Shiba Protector 1
from there on just go with Soulknife up to 20 ... biggest disadvantage about this build is that you loose one enhancement bonus on your fists but otherwise it's pretty solid and you give up almost nothing.

-You got wis to AC twice (monk + focused defense), to hit twice (shiba + focused offense), to dmg twice (shiba + focused offense)
-the unarmed damage of a level 19 monk (monkbelt or improved unarmed strike to get to 20 and you're good)
-limited manifesting (use expansion for two size increases etc etc)

If you want to get more feat intensive and/or you are human you can ditch the one level monk and just take monastic training as a regular feat (oddly you don't actually need levels in monk for it). Get wis to AC through a monks belt. This way you get the full enhancement bonus since you have 19 levels of soulknife now (to be honest I prefer this variant simply for the better manifesting and higher ehancement)

Your manifesting should be quite good since you have wis as your pumpstat meaning you should have a mod of at least +12 at level 20 resulting in 96 bonuspp (120 with practised manifester ... you should invest into it btw ... simply because Gifted Blade has ML = Level -3 and with Shiba Protector you have Level -4 so Practised Manifester fixes it precisely)


Depending on your Dm this build might be too cheesy or unuseable simply because you use PF (Soulknife), 3.5 (Tashalatora and monastic Training) and 3.0 (Shiba Protector)


edit: for a fast damage calculation and ac calculation.
get a race with +2 wis. Assuming you can get an enhancement bonus of +5 on your weapons (aside from the +10 you already have from being soulknife).

AC is (before any item and with 16 dex): 10+13(wis)+14(combat expertise)+3(dex)+4(monkbonus) ? 44 without any items (except for wis boosts)

Attacks (Expansion^2, Greater Mighty Wallop, Improved Natural Attack, Snap Kick, Haste ... also assuming you have 11 str):

hit
+19(bab)-2(size)-2(snap kick)+5(weapon)+26(wisx2)+1(haste)=47
so full attack: +47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+42/+37/+32 (assuming 3.5 flurry)

damage: 2d10->4d8->6d8->8d8->12d8->16d8->24d8->32d8
so each attack: 32d8+26+5=175 average per attack .... and best? add vampiric weapon/claw for an average heal of 72 per attack.

and that's not even counting the +9 enchantments you gonna have on your fists

[FullmetalGamer]

The 3.5 stuff might not be bad but 3.0 would be an issue my GM only allows us to use stuff from books he has easy access too and he has virtually none of the 3.0 set.

[Feint's End]

The 3.5 stuff might not be bad but 3.0 would be an issue my GM only allows us to use stuff from books he has easy access too and he has virtually none of the 3.0 set.

well without Shiba Protector (it's in oriental adventures) btw the build looses somewhat but it's still a very powerful psionic monk. You still got twice Wis to ac. For the Damage it's pretty irrelevant (most comes form size increases= ... only point it hurts a bit is for the to hit but right now it's just absurdely high so it would still be very viable

[FullmetalGamer]

I was thinking of trying Swordsage, withthe flurry of blows progression and that lot.

But to convert it to pathfinder I think it would just need to get ride of concentration, Combine Climb, Tumble, and Balance into Athletics. Maybe Grant them Perception as I think that should honestly be a universal skill (GM rules that way anyway)

Anyone know of any feats or skill tricks or whatever that allows you to add a Ability score to AC, Damage, or To Hit?
I know Dex and Wisdom are the key skills for SSage so one of those would be good.

To bad there is no broken Pistolero Archetype for SSage.

[Red Fel]

As I understand it, DSP is working on a ToB book for PF.

So before you go to all the hard work of converting Swordsage from 3.5 to PF, take a glance over at what DSP's working on. I don't know PF from Adam, but the thread in this forum about the book has been fairly rave in its reviews.

[FullmetalGamer]

I am sure they are, but it really shouldn't be hard to convert it for play.

[Red Fel]

I am sure they are, but it really shouldn't be hard to convert it for play.

Fair point.

Keep in mind, however, that the Unarmed Swordsage "adaptation" (it's not a proper, statted variant) does not include Flurry of Blows. It merely says it should advance Monk unarmed progression, whatever that means.

On the plus side, it satisfies all the cool kung-fu flavor you could ask in a monk, without requiring spells or powers. Crazy awesome stuff. Go for it.