No Light + Ring of the Darkhidden

[aeauseth]

Two of my party are wearing Rings of the Darkhidden. On round 1 the sorcerer is using no light (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/no-light--249/). This combination appears to provide those within 20ft of the no light spell greater invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm).

The obvious counter is a simple light spell. But there are lots of monsters that can't cast spells. This seems to be a bit broken. So far it hasn't been too much of a problem, but now just about everyone in the party has a ring of the darkhidden.

The party recently fought 4 stone giants, the giants were unable to "see" any targets. So their favorite rock throwing tactic was unusable, they had to close to melee and take the 50% miss chance. Giants are still scary, so still not game breaking. But I'm concerned it will eventually become a problem.

Am I missing something here? I'm hesitant to house rule that the ring must be activated (like ring of invisibility) each round after an attack. I'm also resistant to take them away, although I'm considering it during an upcoming drow encounter. The drow would LOVE to have one of these rings. :smallbiggrin:

I've made items from the MIC difficult to acquire in game, however party members see the ring's value and are willing to pay double the base price for it. I don't like to ban items.

[ArcturusV]

Well, No Light has no impact on Darkvision. LOTS of enemies have Darkvision. Nor should it have any effect on abilities like Tremorsense, Blindsense, Life Sight, etc.

So part of it depends on your campaign. If they never fight anything but Giants, humans, elves, etc, it's going to look pretty badass. If they start fighting things with 60' of darkvision, decidedly less so. If they fight things like 200' blindsense like some dragon... might as well not bother.

[denthor]

There is a simpler way around this with stone giants. Have them target an area DC 15 to hit. Anything in those four sqaures have to make a reflex saving throw to not take damage.

[Rubik]

Well, No Light has no impact on Darkvision. LOTS of enemies have Darkvision. Nor should it have any effect on abilities like Tremorsense, Blindsense, Life Sight, etc.

So part of it depends on your campaign. If they never fight anything but Giants, humans, elves, etc, it's going to look pretty badass. If they start fighting things with 60' of darkvision, decidedly less so. If they fight things like 200' blindsense like some dragon... might as well not bother.The ring of the darkhidden, though, makes you invisible to darkvision.

[Nettlekid]

I don't think it's in a sporting spirit to nerf their items because they're using them well. And that's all they're doing: Using the items quite well. They have an effective combo, elegant in its simplicity, using a cantrip and a couple of basic magic items to show boorish monsters what a real adventurer is. Well done.

Now, if you don't want them to steamroll all challenges, throw other things at them. Ring of the Darkhidden makes you invisible to Darkvision only. Anything with Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight, or Scent has legitimate means of hunting them down. Those upcoming Drow have Dancing Lights and Faerie Fire as racial SLAs; use then. They're also experts at fighting in the dark. It's not at all unlikely that they have their OWN Rings of the Darkhidden (or double-price slotless tattoos thereof if you don't want the party looting them afterwards) and so suddenly the party can't use their main tactic, because it's working against them.

By the way, the ones using the tactic DO have Darkvision, right?

[Sallera]

The problem here probably lies more with No Light than the rings - the Ring of the Darkhidden is a useful, versatile item, but it's designed with the assumption that it has the simple counter of lighting a torch. Remove the 3.0 spell from the equation, and you'll let them have their fun in setting up scenarios where the rings are still useful (especially against non-tool-using enemies) without making them into a cheap solution to everything without blindsight.

[aeauseth]

There is a simpler way around this with stone giants. Have them target an area DC 15 to hit. Anything in those four sqaures have to make a reflex saving throw to not take damage.

Heh. Not a bad idea. To firm the rules up a bit I'd let the giants attack a square based on the last attack (or listen check) to determine the square of the foe. Then use a range attack on the square. Apply the standard 50% miss chance. I had not considered this. Thanks for the suggestion.

[aeauseth]

By the way, the ones using the tactic DO have Darkvision, right?

Yes, the characters using this combo have Darkvision. Turns out only one character is a half-elf (no darkvision), and there are some fights where ALL the aggro does go to him, because he is the only visible target. I suspect she will soon acquire the ring of Darkhidden and have ebony eyes cast on her behalf. I haven't suggested it yet, but the party is pretty smart (as this tactic would suggest), and they will eventually think of it themselves.

[ArcturusV]

Ah. Misremembering, and the only item that wasn't Hyperlinked to something.

Seconding though that even with, drow should be more than a match. Faerie Fire isn't normal light, being magic. Plus Drow tend to have a "Nuke it from Orbit" playstyle with things like Levitation plus spellcasting, or using slaves to bumrush and tie up players while they drop the mystical hammer. At the very least drow should be using Blind-Fight (They do use Globes of Darkness as a standard battle tactic after all) if they're warrior based to help ease some of the suffering, lowering that invisible penalty to only 25%.

... granted I never use MM based Drow, but logical homebrewed, leveled drow. >.> So it's been a while since I've run them book standard. After all, they're a race of paranoid, intelligent people where everyone has class levels. Only makes sense there wouldn't be a "book standard" for them.

[tyckspoon]

The problem here probably lies more with No Light than the rings - ...

This. It's a 3.0 spell written to be a cantrip counterpart to the 3.0 Darkness, which actually made darkness. The 3.5 version of Darkness makes Shadowy Illumination instead; if you're going to continue to use No Light, it should be modified so that the level 0 spell is not dramatically more powerful than the level 2 spell. (For comparison, the closest 3.5 spell I know of is Blacklight, which is a level 3 spell.)

[aeauseth]

Seconding though that even with, drow should be more than a match. Faerie Fire isn't normal light, being magic.

Yes, the standard tactic for Drow in 3.5 is to use Faerie Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/faerieFire.htm) combined with Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm). This gives the players a 20% miss chance, but the Drow have none.

The Farie Fire would negate the No Light and the Darkness spells.

[Rubik]

Yes, the characters using this combo have Darkvision. Turns out only one character is a half-elf (no darkvision), and there are some fights where ALL the aggro does go to him, because he is the only visible target. I suspect she will soon acquire the ring of Darkhidden and have ebony eyes cast on her behalf. I haven't suggested it yet, but the party is pretty smart (as this tactic would suggest), and they will eventually think of it themselves.How do half-elves come to be, if even the elves don't know what gender they are?

Also, use AoEs. Alchemical items are cheap and easy to use, and a simple oil/torch combo (as well as alchemist's fire) will help negate the advantages of darkness.

You might consider using enemies with trample, swarms, enemies firing ranged weapons through their spaces (with enough archers to cover all the spaces), and so on.

[aeauseth]

This. It's a 3.0 spell written to be a cantrip counterpart to the 3.0 Darkness, which actually made darkness. The 3.5 version of Darkness makes Shadowy Illumination instead; if you're going to continue to use No Light, it should be modified so that the level 0 spell is not dramatically more powerful than the level 2 spell. (For comparison, the closest 3.5 spell I know of is Blacklight, which is a level 3 spell.)

How about: Normal light sources only provide shadowy illumination in the area. Creatures invisible to darkvision gain 20% concealment while within the area.