Good Class for a Gestalt Crusader

[Dr. Cliché]

My group is doing a Lv11 adventure, with 3 gestalt characters.

Currently we have:
- A Sorcerer/Monk
- A Dread necromancer/Fighter/Dragon Disciple

I'd like to try a crusader, but I'm not sure which class to use with it.

Any suggestions?

[Silva Stormrage]

Well it really depends on what you want to do with the Crusader? Tanking? Control? Damage? Healing?

Sorcerer is good on a Crusader but sorcerer is good with most anything. Take swift + buff spells such as haste, greater mirror image, wings of cover, etc.

Bard might be good as you could boost your melee damage sky high with dragonfire inspiration. Take a feat and you can let your DN's minions get the bonus as well. Also it gets you some skill points and a good skill list.

You could not take a class and instead take a template. Paladin 2/Hexblade 3 Vampire+Vampire Lord would be a huge benefit and give you massive stat bonuses and twice your high charisma to your saving throws. (This only works if your DM has templates go on one side of the gestalt.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Incarnate or (Cloistered) Cleric would be my choices.

Incarnate grants you passive bonuses, defensive and mobility options, and the lovely Therapeutic Mantle potentially working very well with Crusader abilities (ask your DM). Mostly it lets you do your Crusader thing, but better, and the fluff fits together pretty well.

Cleric gives you lots of buffs, healing, and most importantly out of combat utility. And of course, if you are a crusader of a god the fluff fits like a glove. DMM is an option, but it might be too crazy for your group.

Another option, depending on what kind of Crusader you are, is Binder, but that's a bit complicated.

[JaronK]

Cloistered Cleric is definitely a good bet. It should fit in theme, and your party is lacking a divine caster anyway. Have fun persisting the fun buffs and then going to town on enemies!

JaronK

[Red Fel]

One of the key pieces of advice I hear on gestalting is balancing passive and active bonuses. Another is to consider how your actions will be used in combat.

If you plan to use Crusader for its strikes, you're better off with something like Cleric that will let you slap on some buffs, which will then provide you with passive bonuses while you tank and smash your way to glory.

If you plan to use Crusader for boosts, counters, and stances, then I would recommend a class that gives you more active boosts to compensate. Consider, for example, a melee-friendly caster class, like Duskblade. (Admittedly, Duskblade is an Int-based caster class, which would make the gestalt a bit MAD, but you get the idea.) Alternatively, Cleric remains a good option, only now you use that spellcasting power more offensively and actively.

[Epsilon Rose]

I was going to suggest incarnate or something into warweaver (for massive and easy buffing). For similar reasons a warlock with, it's all day buffs, or a artificer might not be a bad idea.

You could also go the opposite direction and grab something that's great at ranged combat, but I'm not entirely sure what that would be, beyond warlock (and I'm not sure if I'd call that great).

[DMVerdandi]

Definitely cleric.
preferably using either the dynamic priest or academic priest feats, based on your needs.

[gorfnab]

Crusader // Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

[Kennisiou]

Crusader/Bard is nice. Also consider that for basically any build /factotum is amazing. Add 8 levels factotum onto almost any gestalt you can fit it on and you'll see serious improvements.

[avr]

You could do worse than to throw swordsage on the other side of that gestalt. It guarantees that you have out of combat stuff, all good saves and 6 + Int base skill points, and effectively you have the better of the two recovery methods in any situation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Definitely Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) as your party currently lacks a divine caster of any kind. Trade your free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion (CC). Get Extend and Persistent Spell with Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell, and use it with Mass Lesser Vigor and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful to buff the party. Get the Spell domain and a 3rd level Pearl of Power, and use Anyspell twice for DMM: Persistent Shield and Wraithstrike. You can also use Greater Anyspell for DMM: Persistent Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon) to become a Cave Troll (MM3) and next level a War Troll (MM3) all day long.

[Manly Man]

Ask your DM if you can use the Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) class from Pathfinder. If not, try going for Favored Soul to get the divine casting that the party lacks; I've always felt that Oracles are better fluff-wise, and I've had DMs who are okay with some Pathfinder peanut butter in their 3.5 chocolate. Either way, you'll have a divine full caster with Charisma synergy, and you'll have the two most important saves (Fortitude and Will) covered.

[Metahuman1]

Things I'd consider:

Warblade: Boosts your Hit Die, if you wanna focus more on Int then Cha it helps you do that, and access to sweet maneuvers from Iron Heart And Diamond Mind is worth it by themselves.

Martial Rogue: Trapfinding + Skills means you really can go first in line logically. Skills also opens up several options for out of combat utility. And everyone loves bonus feats. Pluse a good reflex save and Evasion/Improved Evasion.

Knight: Boosts Hit Die, Will Save, does not increase MAD, Gives you a few bonus feats although depending on those I might ask the DM to let me trade them out for better ones, and last but not least, you get the only aggro generating mechanic in the game and several AC boosts, there small but kinda spiffy.

Bard: As previously suggested, you've got skills, useful spell list to pull form if that's your thing (And can grab arcane channeling if it's not.), and between Bardic Knack, Knowledge Devotion and optimized Inspire Courage+Dragonfire Inspiration+a couple of levels of Sublime Cord, your party's damage is gonna go through the roof, and you can Power Attack/Stone Power for full pretty much all the time and still hit. And just as a kicker, this get's you ALL good saves.

Psion: The real draw here are the powers, though the good will save is also nice. It increases MAD, but you know what? That trick with Shared Pain to always channel half the damage you take into an indestructible Psi-crystal is almost worth it by itself.

Psi-Warrior or Ardent or Wilder: Mostly as above, though each has there own little qirks and twists. But Bonus Feats are good, Mantles have many uses, and Wilder being Cha focused is cool. They all have different good saves, so look there before you choose, and they've all got access to spiffy powers.

Cloistered Cleric: 3 domains/devotion feats, access to turn undead to fuel them + Divine Metamagic feats, Cleric Spell casting and 6+int skills a level with a good Will Save. There is nothing not wonderful about this. My personal recommendation is to Grab Knowledge devotion and do minimal investment's needed to get the +5 form there, and then nab travel devotion and dip 1 level of PrC paladin to Persist Lions Charge. With that last devotion feat, either grab planning domain for extend spell, or Luck Devotion, and then load up on night sticks.

Warning, likely the option presented with the most raw power.

And last but not Least

The Binder: There are a lot fo Vestiges that you can opt to bind that get you some really spiffy ability's, some seem to have been outright made for use with the knightly character type, and some are just amazing. Mostly Passive, lots of Self buffs from class chassie and the Vestiges themselves, added utility, no MAD increasing, and a good Will Save all make this a strong and flavorful contender.

[Dr. Cliché]

Thanks for all the responses, guys.


Well it really depends on what you want to do with the Crusader? Tanking? Control? Damage? Healing?

Well, I was mainly thinking damage, along with a bit of in-combat healing for myself or my allies.



You could not take a class and instead take a template. Paladin 2/Hexblade 3 Vampire+Vampire Lord would be a huge benefit and give you massive stat bonuses and twice your high charisma to your saving throws. (This only works if your DM has templates go on one side of the gestalt.

I doubt that my DM would allow me to play as a vampire. And, if he did, I expect he's want the level adjustment to come from both my classes - not just one.



Ask your DM if you can use the Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) class from Pathfinder.

I imagine pathfinder classes will be equally off-limits.


Anyway, it seems like cloistered cleric (or possibly favoured soul) might be the way to go - considering my party's lack of healing otherwise.


Trade your free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion (CC).

Sorry, but I'm a little confused - how exactly do I perform that trade?

Also, sorry for my ignorance, but what's DMM?

[Metahuman1]

In complete champion, there is a new rule introduced. You can trade any cleric domains you get for a corrisponding feat, known as a devotion feat.

So, If I have the knowledge domain, I could trade if for the feat Knowledge Devotion.


In complete divine, a new feat was introduced. Divine Meta Magic, or DMM for short.

You take a meta magic feat. You then take Divine Meta Magic: That Meta Magic feat. When you prep spells, you can spend x number of turn undead attempts (depending on the feat.), to remove the increased slot level of the spell. So, DMM: Extend Spell Haste, for example, would still be a 3rd level spell slot, not a 4th level spell slot.

When combined with the Persist Spell Meta Magic Feat, and a large supply of Night Sticks and the Clerics insane spell list, it creates one of the most brokenly powerful combo's in the game.



Also, Good catch on favored soul, I totally forgot them in that list I posted.

[Gnaeus]

Crusader/Bard is nice. Also consider that for basically any build /factotum is amazing. Add 8 levels factotum onto almost any gestalt you can fit it on and you'll see serious improvements.

Second Factotum. It is a little MAD, but it's the best skill monkey in the game in a group with virtually no skills. Take Extra Granted maneuver, maybe Tomb Tainted Soul, and Font of Inspiration for all your other feats. You are a full BAB skillmonkey who can begin every fight by using all of your granted maneuvers on the same round.

[RaviStrife]

Fun times. .. gotta love gestalt games.

I would recommend Binder. Specifically for passive buffs from you binds. Offhand, I know Andras grants improved critical, a reusable smite ability, and a free Mount your can summon freely.
Improved Binding (feat) would get your Binder level up to 13, or enough for 7th level binds....
Binding Eligor would grant +4 strength as well as additional smites. Also, all of the Binder abilities are (SU), which means no verbal or somatic components:they work just fine in the heaviest of armors.

Crunch aside, I've never had more fun with roleplay than with this class. At least read up on them if you haven't already.

... thinking a little outside the box, Dragonfire Adepts might be fun as well. Having the breath would give you some range as well as crowd control tools via Entangling Exhalation. Invocations are famous for being passive abilities, so it's another strong chassis to hook it to.

[Manly Man]

... thinking a little outside the box, Dragonfire Adepts might be fun as well. Having the breath would give you some range as well as crowd control tools via Entangling Exhalation. Invocations are famous for being passive abilities, so it's another strong chassis to hook it to.

As would Warlock. Eldritch Claws with Hellfire Warlock in there at some point for the huge bonus to damage when you do your strikes, and the invocations for buffing yourself or debuffing the enemy. A dose of chilling tentacles, and you have an entire group of enemies as a bunch of targets waiting to be slashed like ripe wheat. You'll get good Will saves as well, and the best part about it all is that the Warlock, while it does have Charisma as its primary stat, can function with a set of nothing but dump stats, and so you can focus entirely on Crusader with your ability scores.

[Dr. Cliché]

In complete champion, there is a new rule introduced. You can trade any cleric domains you get for a corrisponding feat, known as a devotion feat.

So, If I have the knowledge domain, I could trade if for the feat Knowledge Devotion.


In complete divine, a new feat was introduced. Divine Meta Magic, or DMM for short.

You take a meta magic feat. You then take Divine Meta Magic: That Meta Magic feat. When you prep spells, you can spend x number of turn undead attempts (depending on the feat.), to remove the increased slot level of the spell. So, DMM: Extend Spell Haste, for example, would still be a 3rd level spell slot, not a 4th level spell slot.

When combined with the Persist Spell Meta Magic Feat, and a large supply of Night Sticks and the Clerics insane spell list, it creates one of the most brokenly powerful combo's in the game.


Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.


As would Warlock. Eldritch Claws with Hellfire Warlock in there at some point for the huge bonus to damage when you do your strikes, and the invocations for buffing yourself or debuffing the enemy. A dose of chilling tentacles, and you have an entire group of enemies as a bunch of targets waiting to be slashed like ripe wheat. You'll get good Will saves as well, and the best part about it all is that the Warlock, while it does have Charisma as its primary stat, can function with a set of nothing but dump stats, and so you can focus entirely on Crusader with your ability scores.

Well, I won't lie - I do like the Warlock class.

However, if I did use it (or another class without divine magic), do you think the party could get by with no healing spells beyond my crusader manoeuvres?

[Red Fel]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.



Well, I won't lie - I do like the Warlock class.

However, if I did use it (or another class without divine magic), do you think the party could get by with no healing spells beyond my crusader manoeuvres?

First off, understand that combat is generally a poor place for healing. Healing spells or items tend to provoke AoOs, or have requirements that make them ill-suited to the task; frankly, you save more HP by killing things fast than by healing mid-combat. Ironically, this makes Crusaders exceptionally good combat healers, in that Devoted Spirit gives them some healing functionality while attacking enemies.

For your healing, you'll want Wands for out-of-combat use. That's when much of your healing should happen anyways. Oh, and what's this? A Warlock can take 10 on a UMD check even while threatened? Isn't that convenient?

Seriously, between that and its utter lack of ability-dependency, Warlock is practically made for gestalt.

[Epsilon Rose]

Keep in mind that there are items that grant healing capabilities and warlock's get umd, good crafting and, if I remember correctly, bonuses with wands. That means they're actually, probably, pretty good at healing out of combat. In combat, healing isn't normally considered an efficient use of actions, but I'd argue that a crusader's probably better for it than a cleric: at least crusader healing let's you keep doing other things at the same time. If played right, a warlock//crusader might actually be better at healing than a divine class. That said, there are also a couple of handbooks that deal with healing in combat and with items. This handbook is for in combat healing (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6656) and this handbook is for healing without a divine class (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520).

[RaviStrife]

Wow- Double checked through Binders, Warlocks and DFA and have come up with a few key points.

So, first off, you won't have reliable access to the Warlock and DFA invocations as a crusader. Arcane spell failure applies...and you're pretty much guarenteed to be in full plate. If you still want to pick it up purely for the passive buffs (like flying from warlock, for example), its not a bad choice, but I feel like you can get more out of it.

Looking closer at Binder, I found 4 Vestiges that would particularly benefit your current crusader setup. You should also be aware Binders get a +3 Insight bonus to Attack rolls, AC, DR, double that to initiative, x5 that to HP...All from a changeable buff called a "Pact Augmentation". These, combined with the other passives, add huge strength to a crusader.

You can combine any 2 of these at once at your current level.

In order-

1. Eligor. This guy is tailor made for you. +4 Untyped bonus to strength, +1d6 of acid, fire, cold, or electric damage added to your attacks. +3 Natural armor.

2. Otiax. Ranged touch attack of 2d6 Bludgeoning out to 10 feet. Particularly notable because you could now perform manuevers at range. Automatically grants Combat reflexes. Gives you 20% concealment against attacks. Allows you to open doors and unlock locks as a SU ability.

3. Buer. You said you were worried about healing? How about Fast Healing 2 for you, and an ability to heal with Cure Light Wounds for as long as you like? Immunity to Poison and Diseases for both you and anyone in 30 feet.

4. Balam. Reroll any save, attack roll, skill check every 5 rounds. I'll say it again...REROLL Saves. There are feats out there that allow this 1/day and people still take them! If you're dealing with any kind of Save or Die casters, this ensures you can laugh off their spells with ease. +2 to Init, Reflex Saves, and AC. Oh, and a Ice-based Gaze attack for 2d6 points of cold damage. If you're unfamiliar, this means everything that can see you must either look away(Concealment again!) or take damage every round. This requires no further action on your part.

5. Focalor. I know I said 4 before, but I had to mention him. Focalor lets you shoot lightning from your eyes (5d6, reflex half, 110 foot range) every round. Yes, every round, with no cooldown. You also put off an aura that penalizes all attacks and saves within 5 feet of you with a -2...effectively giving you 2 AC.

For your original post, it seemed like you were looking for a way to passively buff yourself and gain a few more healing abilities. If you were to say combine Eligor and Buer, you would have these bonuses

+3 Insight bonus to hit (Or AC, Or Damage, Or Saves, Or +6 Init, etc)
+4 Strength (+2 to hit,+2 or +3 damage on every strike)
+1d6 Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire Damage
+3 Natural Armor
and
Fast Healing 2
Unlimited out of Combat healing for yourself and allies
Immunity to poisons and diseases (Shared with Allies)

So...Yeah. Let us know how this works out. I'm eager to see what you run with.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorry, but I'm a little confused - how exactly do I perform that trade?

Also, sorry for my ignorance, but what's DMM?

Complete Champion page 53, second paragraph: "...you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat."

DMM is Divine Metamagic, which allows you to spend turn undead uses to power a specific metamagic feat. In the case of Persistent Spell, you spend seven Turn Undead uses to make a personal or fixed range spell last 24 hours instead of its normal duration. A Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC) gives you a few extra turn undead uses each day for cheap. Night Sticks (LM) give you four extra turn undead uses for each one of them you own, and the bonus is not expressed as a bonus so they'll all stack. So you can have quite a few persistent spells active every day.

[Waker]

Given the party makeup and the role that you want to play, I'd say Bard/Crusader is the way to go. Bard will give you two good saves, 6 skill points and an impressive skill list, access to a decent spellcasting list based off of Charisma along with Inspire Courage, which will greatly expand on your partners abilities to do damage, especially if the DN does go with having several undead minions. Should you go with that route, you would probably be wise to grab Requiem and perhaps Battle Caster. Bear in mind also that your healing effects from Devoted Spirit can be used on living and undead allies alike, since it doesn't specify positive or negative energy. Between the Bards music and buffing spells and the Crusaders Devoted Spirit and White Raven maneuvers, you'll be an impressive force multiplier.

[Scow2]

I'd suggest Favored Soul for Armored Casting and CHA-dependency. But, cleric might work as well, unfortunately, it's WIS-dependent... but it might be cool to have your gestalt side be Cloistered Cleric-to-Radiant Servant of Pelor (Which gives you all Ranged martial weapons to boot!)

[Metahuman1]

I'd suggest Favored Soul for Armored Casting and CHA-dependency. But, cleric might work as well, unfortunately, it's WIS-dependent... but it might be cool to have your gestalt side be Cloistered Cleric-to-Radiant Servant of Pelor (Which gives you all Ranged martial weapons to boot!)

Well, for cleric, he could just boost his wis up too 19 and leave it there. Just high enough to get his 9th level spells, and then all he does is prepare for out of combat utility that doesn't require a save and personal/party buffs, thus, no need to be concerned about save DC's.

[Waker]

Well, for cleric, he could just boost his wis up too 19 and leave it there. Just high enough to get his 9th level spells, and then all he does is prepare for out of combat utility that doesn't require a save and personal/party buffs, thus, no need to be concerned about save DC's.

There are other options for divine spellcasting that is based off of charisma as well. Favored Soul has been mentioned, but there is also the Shugenja. Alternatively you could go arcane with something like Sha'ir for the rare prepared, charisma-based spellcaster.

[demigodus]

I'm going to second the bard suggestion. Specifically pick up Song of the White Raven, so that your bard and crusader levels stack for inspire courage.

Get a Vest of Legends and Words of Creation, and you are looking at +10 attack/damage/morale bonus from inspire courage.

Granted, it costs you two feats and 1 magic item, but it is only a swift action.

Yes, you will be doing damage. As well as being responsible for 50% of the damage that your allies dish out.

Use devoted spirit manuevers to heal in combat.

[Epsilon Rose]

I'm going to second the bard suggestion. Specifically pick up Song of the White Raven, so that your bard and crusader levels stack for inspire courage.

I don't think you're normally allowed to stack things across sides on a gestalt.

[Waker]

I don't think you're normally allowed to stack things across sides on a gestalt.

I know I wouldn't allow that as a DM. Still, being able to activate IC as a swift action is potentially worth it for the feat.

[Metahuman1]

I'm going to second the bard suggestion. Specifically pick up Song of the White Raven, so that your bard and crusader levels stack for inspire courage.

Get a Vest of Legends and Words of Creation, and you are looking at +10 attack/damage/morale bonus from inspire courage.

Granted, it costs you two feats and 1 magic item, but it is only a swift action.

Yes, you will be doing damage. As well as being responsible for 50% of the damage that your allies dish out.

Use devoted spirit maneuvers to heal in combat.

Well, you could dip bard and maybe seeker of the song for a couple of levels on the crusader side with song of the white rave and put Warlock or Binder or cleric on the other side.

And I like cleric so much cause bonus feats and Turn Undead attempts as well as will save and skill points on the cloistered version.

[Scow2]

And I like cleric so much cause bonus feats and Turn Undead attempts as well as will save and skill points on the cloistered version.And you can go RsoP from Cleric, getting a more badass Turn Undead, and because you're high CHA, you can outright obliterate a significant number of undead as a standard action.

[Metahuman1]

Who cares about wasting undead? Turn is just there to fuel devotion feats and Divine Metamagic.

[demigodus]

And you can go RsoP from Cleric, getting a more badass Turn Undead, and because you're high CHA, you can outright obliterate a significant number of undead as a standard action.

Using Turn Undead to Turn Undead? Heresy!

[Gnaeus]

His dread Necro buddy really wants a RSOP

[Metahuman1]

His dread Necro buddy really wants a RSOP

My point exactly.

[Scow2]

Hmm... I must have missed that post. Oh well.

[Manly Man]

So, first off, you won't have reliable access to the Warlock and DFA invocations as a crusader. Arcane spell failure applies...and you're pretty much guarenteed to be in full plate.

Erm... I'd like to call you out on this. As a Crusader, wearing full plate is a rather silly idea, since for the most part, you in fact want your enemies to hit you (at level twenty, you'll be cutting out thirty damage per round and turning into +6 on to-hit and damage rolls), so as to activate your Furious Counterstrike ability. As a Warlock, you can wear light armor without worrying about ASF, so if you feel that you want to have a decent Armor Class just in case, go for a mithral chain shirt, and stack on as many enchantments as possible. Soulfire, radiant, and ghost ward are good choices, and you can get a buckler with ghost ward on it as well to really crank up your Touch AC, but that's entirely optional, as well as unnecessary.

[Metahuman1]

Erm... I'd like to call you out on this. As a Crusader, wearing full plate is a rather silly idea, since for the most part, you in fact want your enemies to hit you (at level twenty, you'll be cutting out thirty damage per round and turning into +6 on to-hit and damage rolls), so as to activate your Furious Counterstrike ability. As a Warlock, you can wear light armor without worrying about ASF, so if you feel that you want to have a decent Armor Class just in case, go for a mithral chain shirt, and stack on as many enchantments as possible. Soulfire, radiant, and ghost ward are good choices, and you can get a buckler with ghost ward on it as well to really crank up your Touch AC, but that's entirely optional, as well as unnecessary.

Besides, you can also use other defense's besides just AC. A lesser clock of displacement + a Ring of Blinking + a Smoking weapon + a collar of perpetual attendance + a +1 Ghost Touch Tower Shield will give you a very attractive miss chance.

Alternatively/in addition, you can put the healing property on your weapons and use devoted spirit maneuvers, and set yourself up with Karmatic strike and robilars Gambit and Stone Power, and every time someone swings and hits you, add double your BAB to a temp hit points pool, and get a chunk of HP healed as soon as it's gone.

[Icewraith]

Alternatively you can rule that anything based off caster level or hit dice's base value is still capped by your hit dice.

Crusader 8//Bard 8 would still be level 8 for purposes of IC.

[Dr. Cliché]

I think my next 5 or so characters are going to have to be Crusader/Somethings, just so I can try all these suggestions. :smallwink:

For now, RaviStrife has convinced me - I'm going to try a Binder.

As has already been pointed out, there are several essences that should go very well with the character (unlimited out of combat healing seems incredibly useful - especially since I already have some decent in-combat healing from Crusader).

Also, most of the Binder abilities seem to be passive ones; which will let me focus a bit more on the Crusader abilities.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for their insightful posts on this matter. I'm sure I'll be trying some of the other suggestions in the future. :smallsmile:

[Metahuman1]

No sweat man, I'm sure everyone would agree we were happy to help. And I'd be lying if I said it didn't give me a couple of new ideas for myself. =)

[Dr. Cliché]

Hmm, RaviStrife, you mentioned Eligor being bindable at my level (11), but I just noticed that he's 7th level vestige; meaning I'd need to be lv15 before I can bind him.

Is there a way to still bind him at my level?