Question about CR

[Secret Bard]

Hello everyone, I was wondering if a monster (Monster A) is capable of summoning another monster (Monster B), is the Monster B's CR calculated into Monster A's total CR? Or is Monster A's CR calculated as a stand alone monster and if B is summoned, it increases the EL?

[Equinox]

You don't get XP for monsters that your enemies summon, and they don't have their own CR.

If a level 5 druid summons a wolf, and you fight both of them, you only get XP for the Druid (CR 5).

[Secret Bard]

Sorry that doesn't quite answer my question. So let's say we are fighting a level 5 druid, EL 5, and he summons a wolf, is the EL still 5 or was it increased when he summoned the wolf?

[Red Fel]

I would have thought that a monster's ability to summon other monsters was calculated into its CR.

I would have thought this, if the CR system didn't often strike me as having been chosen through a careful and analytical process involving a dartboard and copious amounts of alcohol.

[Equinox]

No, he's still EL 5. A level 5 character who uses class features available to him is EL 5.

[JaronK]

It's still EL5.

JaronK

[Brookshw]

The summoning is part of the druids abilities so no, I shouldn't think there would be a change.

[Secret Bard]

That's what I thought; but wasn't sure. Thanks everyone :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

This means, for instance, that defeating a first-level druid together with his extremely well-trained pet wolf that's probably wearing barding, gives you exactly as much XP as defeating a single wild wolf without the training, barding, or druid.

[lsfreak]

I feel there should be clarification here. The rules are clear that summoning doesn't affect the CR of the encounter. Common sense and a basic understanding of the action economy, though, should say that it can absolutely affect the difficulty of an encounter.

Let's compare:
- A 5th level spirit shaman (CR5), a 4-hit-dice wolf (CR2) and a dire wolf (CR3) make a CR7 encounter
- A 5th-level druid, its 4HD wolf companion, and a pre-summoned dire wolf make a CR5 encounter.

Uh, what? There are differences, the dire wolf will disappear after five rounds if it hasn't already been killed by then, but the wolf companion also has roughly +3 armor, +1 attack, +2 damage, evasion, and any buffs the druid has active. It should be fairly clear those should be roughly equal encounters in terms of actual challenge, but they're rated differently based on the rules.

And going to the absurd, a balor is a CR20 encounter. A balor can summon a second balor at no increase to the CR, despite two balors being a CR22 encounter. That balor can summon another balor, that can summon another balor, that can summon another balor, that can summon another balor, until there's so many balors they collapse into a black hole, and it never goes above CR20. Yesyes I know they'll be long dead before gravitational collapse, shush.

EDIT: Of course, Chronos gave an even better example.

[Brookshw]

Well sure, some classes/monsters are broken but its still only using its inherit features? Does the cr go up if the balor throws a fireball?

[Lanaya]

Let's compare:
- A 5th level spirit shaman (CR5), a 4-hit-dice wolf (CR2) and a dire wolf (CR3) make a CR7 encounter
- A 5th-level druid, its 4HD wolf companion, and a pre-summoned dire wolf make a CR5 encounter.

This isn't a failing of the CR system, though. The general concepts are solid. The issue here is that druids are hilariously overpowered, and their class features are more powerful than some characters. If you take a more tame example, like a warlock animating some zombies with The Dead Walk, it doesn't cause such weirdly imbalanced encounters.

[Eldariel]

And going to the absurd, a balor is a CR20 encounter. A balor can summon a second balor at no increase to the CR, despite two balors being a CR22 encounter. That balor can summon another balor, that can summon another balor, that can summon another balor, that can summon another balor, until there's so many balors they collapse into a black hole, and it never goes above CR20.

Well, actually, summoned Balor specifically cannot use this ability. Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)-effects have the clause:
"A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."

Now, Solars and Gate are a different story of course since it's Calling, not Summoning. Of course, default Solar spell setup doesn't include Gate so while fully capable of casting it, it's a bit more complex than that.


This isn't a failing of the CR system, though. The general concepts are solid. The issue here is that druids are hilariously overpowered, and their class features are more powerful than some characters. If you take a more tame example, like a warlock animating some zombies with The Dead Walk, it doesn't cause such weirdly imbalanced encounters.

CR-system in general only fails because all the values it assumes to be constant or close enough actually fluctuate wildly. Using CR is like trying to do math in a system where every number actually has a random value from the list of 10 possible values. In other words, if CR were the core of our mathematics, 1+1 is every number from -20 to 20.

[tyckspoon]

Personally: Anything that was present *before* the fight applies to the fight's Encounter Level. Anything that is summoned *into* the fight does not, because that means somebody in the fight had to spend some resources to get it there - a spell slot, a limited-use ability, a magic item, and most importantly, an action (and in the specific case of Summon X spells, usually a complete action and a high risk of being interrupted.)

[Lanaya]

CR-system in general only fails because all the values it assumes to be constant or close enough actually fluctuate wildly. Using CR is like trying to do math in a system where every number actually has a random value from the list of 10 possible values. In other words, if CR were the core of our mathematics, 1+1 is every number from -20 to 20.

Absolutely. There are plenty of reasons that the CR system is completely screwed up, but druids being too good isn't one of them.

[lsfreak]

Well, actually, summoned Balor specifically cannot use this ability. Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)-effects have the clause:
"A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."

Man, epic fail on my part, I completely forgot about that. My first point stands, about one balor and two balors apparently being equal-CR fights, except when they're not.

[Eldariel]

Absolutely. There are plenty of reasons that the CR system is completely screwed up, but druids being too good isn't one of them.

Well, it actually sort of is :smalltongue: See, one of the big failings of CR is assuming all PCs of equal level are relatively equal. Druid is one of the biggest offenders in this regard. Same goes for leveled monsters, particularly non-associated class levels in Druid.


Man, epic fail on my part, I completely forgot about that. My first point stands, about one balor and two balors apparently being equal-CR fights, except when they're not.

I think it's more-so, there is no fight with a single Balor. You always face at least two Balors and that's the CR 20 fight. I don't think that actually works that poorly since it's predictable. Most of the other Summon Demons-thingies are far worse since they have percentile to work and percentile to do nothing; in other words, the difficulty of a fight sways about 2 EL with one die roll.

[Karnith]

Most of the other Summon Demons-thingies are far worse since they have percentile to work and percentile to do nothing; in other words, the difficulty of a fight sways about 2 EL with one die roll.
The best (worst?) was the Succubus in 3.0 - it had a 10% chance of summoning a Balor with its Summon Demon ability.

That's a fun encounter around level 9, let me tell you.

[Vhaidara]

Man, epic fail on my part, I completely forgot about that. My first point stands, about one balor and two balors apparently being equal-CR fights, except when they're not.

Actually, no. If you fight one Balor (CR 20), then you fight it and it's friend.

If you fight 2 Balors (CR22), then you fight them and their summoned friends. Yeah, they each get to summon one.

Then there's 4 Balors (CR 24), which is actually 8 Balors.

[Diarmuid]

I think one thing to keep in mind is how the encounter is set up.

The CR of that Balor is assuming that you're just facing the Balor and that it's going to use that ability to summon help as one of its actions in the combat.

If you're creating an encounter and you're giving the Balor time to have already used its summon ability and you're predetermining that it's going to get another Balor then the EL of the encounter should probably be adjusted in some way.

[Equinox]

Man, epic fail on my part, I completely forgot about that. My first point stands, about one balor and two balors apparently being equal-CR fights, except when they're not.
But, here's the rub, there's no such thing as "one Balor standalone". Such a beast does not exist, and does not have a CR assigned to it. There is only "one Balor, who may choose, as a standard action, summon another Balor", which has CR 20.

[Diarmuid]

So no Balor in existence will ever have already used its Summon ability when it's encountered?

And no Balor would ever decide to Summon anything other than another Balor?

While I understand the second part from an optimization perspective, there are a lot of other reasons a Balor might summon something else.

[Equinox]

The CR assigned to a creature/character always assumes they have access to all their class features and other abilities.

For example, you can, while wondering the woods, encounter a level 5 Druid who is badly wounded, out of spells, out of Wildshape uses, and whose animal companion has recently been slain. It can happen. But such an encounter is definitely not CR 5. If you want your PCs to encounter a Balor who doesn't have access to all its listed features, you are welcome to do so, but that's not CR 20 anymore.

As for choosing to summon another Balor or something else, that's tactical choices, and, again, the listed CR assumes normal tactics for the monster. Balors tend to be smart enough to use sound tactics. If it's a good idea to summon another Balor, they will do so. If it's tactically sound to summon something else, they'll summon something else.

[TuggyNE]

The CR assigned to a creature/character always assumes they have access to all their class features and other abilities.

For example, you can, while wondering the woods, encounter a level 5 Druid who is badly wounded, out of spells, out of Wildshape uses, and whose animal companion has recently been slain. It can happen. But such an encounter is definitely not CR 5. If you want your PCs to encounter a Balor who doesn't have access to all its listed features, you are welcome to do so, but that's not CR 20 anymore.

As for choosing to summon another Balor or something else, that's tactical choices, and, again, the listed CR assumes normal tactics for the monster. Balors tend to be smart enough to use sound tactics. If it's a good idea to summon another Balor, they will do so. If it's tactically sound to summon something else, they'll summon something else.

While I do generally agree with this, I'd like to add a smallish caveat:
Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. So if if the balor thinks it has a good chance to smoke you without the summon, it may well try to do so.

[Chronos]

Quoth Karnith:

The best (worst?) was the Succubus in 3.0 - it had a 10% chance of summoning a Balor with its Summon Demon ability.

That's a fun encounter around level 9, let me tell you.Several times now, in battles with fiends, my DM has looked at his notes and said "Wait, it can do what? OK, let's scratch that, because you guys wouldn't have a chance.".

Although usually, the what? was a high-CL Blasphemy.