The benefit of a druid swarm companion ?

[CyberThread]

Does anyone here see any good benefits, to a druid taking vermin companion , and choosing a swarm of the usual single creature?

[Psyren]

How would you apply Swarm to it? In fact, I think the smallest vermin on the list is Small, making them ineligible even if you could template them.

[CyberThread]

A druid can select a vermin companion from the following table. She must be of the indicated level, and the amount in parentheses is subtracted from the druid's level to determine the companion's special abilities.

1st Level or Higher (Level -0)

Giant Ant, Worker
Giant Bee
Giant Fire Beetle
Monstrous Centipede, Large
Monstrous Scorpion, Medium
Monstrous Spider, Medium
4th Level or Higher (Level -3)

Giant Ant, Soldier
Giant Bombardier Beetle
Monstrous Centipede, Huge
Monstrous Spider, Large
7th Level or Higher (Level -6)

Centipede Swarm *
Giant Praying Mantis
Giant Stag Beetle
Giant Wasp
Locust Swarm *
Monstrous Scorpion, Large






Source : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a

[Invader]

The only real benefit is the usual benefits a swarm has but it's still a pretty subpar choice for an AC.

[eggynack]

Eh, I don't really see it being useful. I mean, what is a swarm actually doing for you? It doesn't stand in the way, the damage it does is marginal, and the DC's on the various effects are minor. This is instead of a brown bear or advanced fleshraker, and it doesn't seem to be a good trade, especially with two feats as a cost (child of winter is alright, but it's still a feat you're spending on this plan). I would just occasionally prep a summon swarm, if you anticipate having the kind of inevitability that would make such a preparation worth it, and skip out on the vermin companion.

Edit: Also, animal growth. It's a thing, and losing the ability to catch your AC in the web of buffs is a big loss.

[Invader]

Eh, I don't really see it being useful. is very beI mean, what is a swarm actually doing for you? It doesn't stand in the way, the damage it does is marginal, and the DC's on the various effects are minor. This is instead of a brown bear or advanced fleshraker, and it doesn't seem to be a good trade, especially with two feats as a cost (child of winter is alright, but it's still a feat you're spending on this plan). I would just occasionally prep a summon swarm, if you anticipate having the kind of inevitability that would make such a preparation worth it, and skip out on the vermin companion.

Edit: Also, animal growth. It's a thing, and losing the ability to catch your AC in the web of buffs is a big loss.

Not to mention feats and equipment for AC's almost none of which is beneficial to swarms.

[Stux]

On the other hand, you are still a goddam druid! Even losing your AC outright doesn't stop you being tier 1. Unless your party is super optimised its really not going to hurt you compared to where everyone else is at, so if you just want it because you think its cool then knock yourself out!

[eggynack]

Not to mention feats and equipment for AC's almost none of which is beneficial to swarms.
Which ones in particular on the feat end? Do natural bond and companion spellbond not work on the swarm? Offhand, those're probably the only animal companion feats I'd actually invest in.


On the other hand, you are still a goddam druid! Even losing your AC outright doesn't stop you being tier 1. Unless your party is super optimised its really not going to hurt you compared to where everyone else is at, so if you just want it because you think its cool then knock yourself out!
I guess, sure. You'd still be tier one if you lost your wild shape too. Even with that being the case, these things are still worth evaluating, to discover which druid builds work out, and which ones don't. If you don't know that stuff, a lot of druids end up looking pretty similar, because breaking out of that basic mold is tricky.

[Psyren]

Source : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a

Ah, see, I was reading it in ECS 62, and there were no swarms on that list.

EDIT: Note that you actually lose one of the main benefits of vermin here, i.e. they're not mindless and so they can be zapped with stuff like color spray.

[Invader]

Which ones in particular on the feat end natural bond and companion spellbond not work on the swarm? Offhand, those're probably the only animal companion feats I'd actually invest in.

I was thinking more along the lines of feats your AC ends up taking.

[eggynack]

I was thinking more along the lines of feats your AC ends up taking.
Ah, right. Completely forgot about those. I don't even know what the optimal feat assignment on a swarm would like.

[Invader]

Ah, right. Completely forgot about those. I don't even know what the optimal feat assignment on a swarm.

I'm sure there's some out there that would beneficial but I can't imagine theres much that compares with most the usual feats for animals. Admittedly though I've never really looked into it.

[eggynack]

I'm sure there's some out there that would beneficial but I can't imagine theres much that compares with most the usual feats for animals. Admittedly though I've never really looked into it.
Wait, no, it's irrelevant. Swarm companions do not gain feats. To put it in a way that's more reflective of the original text, "Swarm companions do not gain feats." So, that's another mark against this plan, and a pretty big one.

[Psyren]

Wait, no, it's irrelevant. Swarm companions do not gain feats. To put it in a way that's more reflective of the original text, "Swarm companions do not gain feats." So, that's another mark against this plan, and a pretty big one.

Well then, to use the formal terminology, "eff that."

[Invader]

Wait, no, it's irrelevant. Swarm companions do not gain feats. To put it in a way that's more reflective of the original text, "Swarm companions do not gain feats." So, that's another mark against this plan, and a pretty big one.

Now someone is going to list all the ways you can get int 3 on a swarm :smallamused:

[Spuddles]

If only it worked with arcane hierophant. Intelligent swarm could be very useful.

[eggynack]

Now someone is going to list all the ways you can get int 3 on a swarm :smallamused:
I don't even know if it would matter. It just says, plain as day, that swarm companions don't gain feats. That fact likely has its basis in some factor that only applies to swarms, but even if you fix that factor, the rule would still be there, detached from any external source. That also applies to skills. So, what Psyren said then. This gets a kajillion not worth it points.

[CyberThread]

but..but..if you make yourself really small, you could play a lil baby horn to toot, charge, and ride your flying swarm of loctusts * would be about 1,000 of the creatures?* , and feel like your a jamerline (whatever that ugly rat thing is)

[Norin]

Hmm, auto hitting poisons with venomfire comes to mind.

[Erik Vale]

On the off hand I can think of hive minds, but being that they're introdueced in BoVD, good luck.