Gestalt Dweomerkeeper//Incantatrix

[Zweisteine]

I am thinking that I would like to try a Gestalt build headed towards Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper, but I am a bit lacking in experience with magic in general (I've built a few casters, but barely played any).

The arcane sauce would have to be wizard, but I'd have to choose between standard or Cloistered Cleric and Archivist for the other side.

Mainly, I was wondering if the build is at all viable, and for tips as I how to do it.

This is the final build I'm looking at now: Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Abjurant Champion 5//(Cleric or Archivist) 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/[something] 5

[Zweisteine]

Total thread repurpose, because nobody seemed to be interested in my last question.

[WhamBamSam]

You're only allowed to go into PrCs on one side of the Gestalt unless your DM is houseruling it. Also, Abjurant Champion would take two bad feats (Combat Casting and Martial Weapon Proficiency (unless you have the War Domain or something to get it from the divine side)) and you don't really need the BAB because Divine Power is a thing.

Archivist generally plays nicer with Wizard than Cleric does, since you don't have to pump Wis as high (you need 19 to cast 9ths, but all your save DCs are Int based), but if you're PrCing on the Wizard side you can't go into Sacred Exorcist to get Turn Undead, so Cleric might be better for that reason, if you intend to use DMM at all. Alternate Spell Source would allow you to DMM some of your Wizard Spells along with the Cleric ones, but Incanatrix would already cover your Arcane metamagic needs. You sort of end up tripping all the broken options over each other. For that reason, Wizard//Factotum actually ends up being more powerful than Wizard//Divine Casting. Wizard casting is all you ever need, so more standard actions to cast with, ignoring SR, more initiative, skill points and the like end up being more valuable then having more spells to cast.

[Zweisteine]

I can probably have prestige classes on both sides of the gestalt...

I had been hoping to avoid the classing tripping over each other as much by having a lot of utility spells on hand, but that doesn't seem too useful, either...


Thanks for the advice!

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, Incantrix basically turns half your casting into a passive ability due to persist being spammed. This lets you get long term bonuses out of spell slots you will never have rounds to use in combat.

Also, pick up the spontaneous divination ACF at wizard 5. This will give you a ton of versatility by opening up a whole school of mostly utility magic to being spontaneously cast.

Third, Archivist is great.

[Chronos]

Be aware that even if your DM is allowing prestige classes on both sides, you're talking about the two most powerful casting prestige classes in the game, built on a framework of two of the most powerful base classes in the game. This will not be fun for anyone else in your group.

[Aliek]

Viable, yes. Two of the stronger PrCs ever printed gestalted with two of the stronger base classes? Hard to go wrong. Be a considerable power-level increase over a regular Incantatrix? Not as much.

Now, don't get me wrong. A properly built Incantatrix is an insanely powerful character, but dweomerkeeper hardly compliments what she can do. Other than the metamagic reduction, there's little point in taking both classes - Unless you're mostly interested in Supernatural Wishes.

In theory, you could have your buffs undispellable, but there's always circle magic for that. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Halruuan Elder or Hathran 5/Incantatrix 7 may be of interest, if not as cheese-loaded as some other options. Tainted sorcerer, I'm looking at you.

In Gestalt usually, one side carries the 'raw power' and the other the 'action economy'. It's common to see Factotums or Psions/Erudites on the action economy part, but as you intend to go with a wizard/cleric, Ruby Knight Vindicator, from the Tome of Battle. If lost caster levels are a problem, taking levels in Mystic Theurge on the wizard side matching your dead RKV caster levels might be of interest, but theurgic PrCs are by default not playable in gestalt. But then, so is taking PrCs on both sides, so YMMV. All in all, you came for the 7th level ability, Divine Impetus.

If you manage to squeeze a couple Turn Undead pools for Divine Impetus, and some int(Wizard spells should be your focus, so pump that int) for Metamagic Effect, you may be able to go nova with DMM: Quicken, instead of using your turn attempts to persist.

Between Hathran and Halruuan Elder, you'd have to chose between spontaneously casting your prepared spells(Arguably via an Acorn of Far Travel, might not fly with your DM) or some bonus metamagic/signature spells. For Hathran you also need Leadership, which might just be a problem. But it's very helpful for circle magic, and probably the strongest feat around. YMMV once again. If nothing else works, you can cast Simulacrum on yourself a few times, so you can be your own battery.

For turn undead pools, Channel Incarnum or Rebuke Dragons ACF for your first level of Cleric, a Dread Necromancer dip for Rebuke Undead(If coupled with a mystic theurge on the other side, even better), and a Sacred Exorcist dip for Turn Undead. With 3 pools, just get a couple Nightsticks, or if they don't stack, a Nightstick and the Extra Turning feat, along with some other items that grant turn attempts.

That would make for a very strong character, but then, you might overshadow the other party members, reducing the Fun™ level in the campaign. The strongest build isn't always the best one.

Edit: Would write more but just glanced at the watch. I'll be back later if this is of any interest.

[Rebel7284]

Due to needing access to a doimain, cleric is a better entry. Archivist's main draw is getting access to more spells, but you already get two of the best spell lists in the game, archivist is overkill.

As people pointed out, ironically, this is actually weaker than Incantatrix/Factotum build due to actions being more important than a few more spells in the long run, but it's certainly powerful enough for most campaigns...

For lolz you can combine all the best caster PrCs in the game:
Gnome
Cloisted Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Dweomerkeeper 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Illusionist 5/Incantatrix 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5

Again, suboptimal, but powerful enough. :)

[Zweisteine]

This will not be fun for anyone else in your group.

I'm all alone... :smallwink:
Actually, that's why I'm going optimization crazy. When in multi-player campaigns, I tend to restrict my characters to what fits with the character. This is my chance to do proper optimization outside of the theoretical.


Aliek, your post was very well-made and quite helpful; thank you.


I'm thinking I agree with what you guys are saying... Two highly active classes at once is too many, especially with the bookkeeping involved in spellcasting... I don't think I can deal with that, let alone using it all...

I think I'll find something (somewhat) simpler, maybe Cloistered Cleric//Druid, and leave the Cleric side to daily buffs and post-combat healing.
(This build doesn't seem to actually involve less bookkeeping, except for not having to deal with wizard spell knowledge etc.)


I also have to make another character, not sure what it should be, though...

[Aliek]

Glad it helped :smallsmile:

Other than the class stuff, there's some feats which might be of interest. You'll be feat starved, with all the prerequisites, but snatching a couple feats here and there shouldn't be that much of a problem. Get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole(Complete Scoundrel, I believe?), that's for sure.

Some feats that might be interesting are Initiate of Mystra from the Player's Guide to Faerun. One of the stronger choices around, allowing you to cast in an AMF with naught but a caster level check, and for a trick, if you want some high INT, I'd say Reserves of Strength, from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

The trick goes like this: First, you learn Polymorph Any Object. Then you use Reserves of Strength to go above its 15 hd limit. In this case, we're looking at a Black Ethergaunt, from the Fiend Folio. 31 base int is no joke. Cast it twice so it's permanent, then persist Disguise Self or any polymorph into a common humanoid form or something. If using Disguise Self, your best bet is probably an Elan. By then, with a +5 inherent bonus and a +6 item you should have 42 int or somesuch, so 19 uses of Metamatic Effect.

By then, just persist anything you want. Heck, persist Feather Fall, just because.

Also, the Druid part requires some extra bookkeeping I'd say, with Animal Companions and Wild Shape, and there's quite a bit of crossover with the Cleric list, so you might not feel the full effect of having two spell lists at your disposal. Having both Gate and Shapechange is pretty good tough.

All in all, just remember not to go too overboard with optimization. It gets harder and harder to challenge a well-optimized caster.

[Story]

Nitpick: Feather Fall can't be persisted.

I'm not sure why you'd want to anyway when you can just persist Swift Fly instead. If you're just looking for silly useless 1st level spells to persist, there are a lot to choose from. My favorite is Scholar's Touch.

[2xMachina]

I like Wizard//Warblade.

Warblade to go all day, Wizard for the stopping power when necessary. Maybe even Wizard5/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 5//Warblade17/Wizard 3.

Cast as a 20 wizard, Initiator as a 18. Persist haste through ocular spell or something, and go to town with all day 50% concealment, 50% miss chance, +1 standard action each round, freedom of movement, and all undispellable at that.

Warblade stance of +1 move/swift action per round, and you've nearly double the actions of everyone. If you can manage Warblade 20 capstone you can have both stance for total of 2 standard actions, 2 moves and 2 swifts.