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Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-28, 08:49 PM
So I've got a 5th-level Fighter running through the 2nd part of the Jade Reagent Adventure Path, and I'm getting all sorts of excited about playing a samurai. I'm already part mounted and wielding a polearm, so I figure I'm not totally screwing myself over (though I don't have a decent Dex so the whole Mounted Archer thing won't be that great).

But I figured I'd ask y'all about the viability of multiclassing. I mean, I'm already a fighter, and Samurai doesn't seem much more powerful, though the possible applications of Challenge or Resolve have potential.

Spuddles
2013-10-28, 09:45 PM
If you want to keep the same mount over the game, your DM wont get you upgrades, etc., a dip in cavalier may be better. There's a feat that lets you use character level instead of class level for determining your cavalier's mount feature. Hopefully Psyren will be around to tell me what I'm thinking of.

Cant help you with the samurai bit, but multiclassing out of fighter at odd levels is generally poor form, as you lose those sweet sweet bonus feats.

Bhaakon
2013-10-28, 10:04 PM
You're thinking of the Horse Master feat, but the character would have to slog through 4 levels of Cavalier to get it. It would probably be better to take boon companion as soon as possible to give the mount an immediate boost in usefulness/survivability and just accept that it would always be one level behind.

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-29, 07:14 AM
If you want to keep the same mount over the game, your DM wont get you upgrades, etc., a dip in cavalier may be better. There's a feat that lets you use character level instead of class level for determining your cavalier's mount feature. Hopefully Psyren will be around to tell me what I'm thinking of.

Cant help you with the samurai bit, but multiclassing out of fighter at odd levels is generally poor form, as you lose those sweet sweet bonus feats.

Well RP-wise I was gonna wait until we actually reach Tian Xia before making the switch, so I could do one more level of fighter.

Honestly, I'm not doing this for the mounted stuff so much as I'm doing it for the Challenge and Resolve. I'm not really a big mounted combat fan, though the other fighter in the group is going that route and we synergize really well tactically (he's two-handed fighter, I'm polearm, together we're back-to-back Power Attacking badasses).

Bhaakon: Since samurai is technically a variant of cavalier, couldn't I take Horse Master? Oh, nevermind, samurai doesn't get Expert Trainer. Lame.

Regardless, is fighter 6/samurai X still fine if I don't stress the mounted combat stuff? I get that the mount is a huge part of the samurai class, but could I have a 2-level-behind animal companion (with the Boon Companion feat) and not fall too far behind?

We do have a sorcerer in the group, but otherwise it's a magus, a ninja, and another fighter. And I think the adventure path will end somewhere around 15th level anyway.

Psyren
2013-10-29, 07:37 AM
If you're actually going to Tian Xia I would ask the DM if you can retrain some of your Fighter levels into Samurai by training with a master there. You can then take Horse Master. If the DM is clever he can put hooks for everyone into a quest like that e.g. have everyone find a trainer of some kind relevant to their backstory.

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-29, 07:47 AM
If you're actually going to Tian Xia I would ask the DM if you can retrain some of your Fighter levels into Samurai by training with a master there. You can then take Horse Master. If the DM is clever he can put hooks for everyone into a quest like that e.g. have everyone find a trainer of some kind relevant to their backstory.

I hadn't thought about that. I'll ask him about it.

Though I still don't think I can take Horse Master. But if I can change two of my fighter levels to samurai and end up as Fighter 4/Samurai X, then if I take Boon Companion it'll be just as good.

Psyren
2013-10-29, 07:54 AM
Show him the retraining rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/retraining.html) in Ultimate Campaign. In particular, point out the synergy bonus between fighter and samurai (cavalier) which will reduce your retraining time, and further note the bonus for having a trainer available.

Person_Man
2013-10-29, 07:57 AM
Samurai and Cavalier are garbage. They're an animal companion and a jumble of minor bonuses, either of which would only be made worse by multiclassing. Just stick with strait Fighter, or if you must, ask your DM if you can retrain into strait Samurai or Cavalier.

Psyren
2013-10-29, 07:59 AM
Samurai and Cavalier are garbage. They're an animal companion and a jumble of minor bonuses, either of which would only be made worse by multiclassing.

Don't bottle it up like that man, tell us how you really feel :smalltongue:

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-29, 08:19 AM
Show him the retraining rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/retraining.html) in Ultimate Campaign. In particular, point out the synergy bonus between fighter and samurai (cavalier) which will reduce your retraining time, and further note the bonus for having a trainer available.

Oh that's where the retraining rules are.

I might just retrain all of my levels anyway. It might be easier than multiclassing.

Will lose 2 feats though. Oh well, I haven't been using Dazzling Display anyway. :P

magotter
2013-10-29, 08:23 AM
Samurai and Cavalier are garbage. They're an animal companion and a jumble of minor bonuses, either of which would only be made worse by multiclassing. Just stick with strait Fighter, or if you must, ask your DM if you can retrain into strait Samurai or Cavalier.

I don't know if I can rightly agree here. While I will concede (as is often pointed out) that Samurai is just a mechanically inferior Cavalier owing to little splatbook support for Samurai, I would still totally recommend taking the class. Mostly for thematics. Look, optimization is all well and good, but when in Rome (or Jade Regant) do as Romans do. Now then, let's make it awesome.

Kevka, you mentioned wielding a polearm. How do you feel about becoming a Lancer? Just wanna see how to direct my advice. and to simplify: With mounted polearm fighting, you can do a lot to increase range and become a tripping machine, creating a large radius of battlefield shutdown wherever you go. Meanwhile, with lancer, you can deal out unfair levels of damage, and straight up kebab foes on contact.

As Psyren mentioned, retraining might be a nice idea. Still, could you give us a layout of your current build? Stats, feats, archetypes, that sorta thing.

Person_Man
2013-10-29, 08:37 AM
I don't know if I can rightly agree here. While I will concede (as is often pointed out) that Samurai is just a mechanically inferior Cavalier owing to little splatbook support for Samurai, I would still totally recommend taking the class. Mostly for thematics. Look, optimization is all well and good, but when in Rome (or Jade Regant) do as Romans do. Now then, let's make it awesome.

Is there a reason you can't just play a Cavalier (or better yet, a Druid or Paladin) and just call yourself a Samurai? If you enjoy riding around on a powerful mount and hitting stuff, why not do so with the most options and best mechanics available?


Don't bottle it up like that man, tell us how you really feel :smalltongue:

Well, until my therapist learns how to play D&D, I really have nowhere else to complain about all this stuff. :smallwink:

Also, memo to myself, become a psychiatrist that focuses primarily on gaming induced mania. I will make a fortune.

Psyren
2013-10-29, 08:46 AM
Is there a reason you can't just play a Cavalier (or better yet, a Druid or Paladin) and just call yourself a Samurai? If you enjoy riding around on a powerful mount and hitting stuff, why not do so with the most options and best mechanics available?

You may as well ask why not be Pun-Pun. Not everyone wants 'the most options and best mechanics,' even if they're strictly more competent. Also, Druid/Paladin come with a deal of baggage that may not fit his concept anyway, while Cavalier isn't all that different from Samurai.

Besides which, he's got two fighters in the party... I don't think power is their primary concern.



Well, until my therapist learns how to play D&D, I really have nowhere else to complain about all this stuff. :smallwink:

I have a swear jar and it works wonders :smallbiggrin: I can even bring it to the game table!

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-29, 09:10 AM
As Psyren mentioned, retraining might be a nice idea. Still, could you give us a layout of your current build? Stats, feats, archetypes, that sorta thing.

Sure.

We rolled ability scores, I ended up getting (after the +1 from level 4):

Str 18, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
Feats Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Polearm), Dazzling Display, Mounted Combat.
Right now, if I retrain full samurai, I'd lose two three of my bonus fighter feats, and I'm looking at Improved Disarm and Dazzling Display. I haven't used Disarm at all yet, and I used Dazzling Display and was unimpressed even though I succeeded at cowing everybody. Can't decide what the third one to drop should be. Trip's been getting a lot of mileage actually. It's one of the ways the zweihander and I sync real well (I trip, he Power Attacks them while they're on the ground).
Took the Polearm Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/polearm-master) archetype from the APG
I think I'm a little behind WBL, but that's because I haven't been asking about it. We started at level 4 and I get easily overwhelmed when I have lots of money and an entire SRD to look through for equipment. :smalleek:

I am wearing a Cassisian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/angel/angel-cassisian). He's been following us around and I'm the only Good-aligned member of the party (everyone else is a shade of neutral), so he likes me.

Spore
2013-10-29, 09:35 AM
Samurai and Cavalier are garbage. They're an animal companion and a jumble of minor bonuses, either of which would only be made worse by multiclassing. Just stick with strait Fighter, or if you must, ask your DM if you can retrain into strait Samurai or Cavalier.

Tell that to the Purrodaemon (CR18) my lv 9 cavalier killed with a borrowed +5 Holy Lance. He _might_ disagree. 3d6+90 on a charge isn't to be toyed with.


You may as well ask why not be Pun-Pun. Not everyone wants 'the most options and best mechanics,' even if they're strictly more competent. Also, Druid/Paladin come with a deal of baggage that may not fit his concept anyway, while Cavalier isn't all that different from Samurai.

That's why we can't have nice things. I agree, however this behaviour is still not clever. "I want that thing because it sounds cool." is not a very good reason.


Is there a reason you can't just play a Cavalier (or better yet, a Druid or Paladin) and just call yourself a Samurai? If you enjoy riding around on a powerful mount and hitting stuff, why not do so with the most options and best mechanics available?


While I agree with the cavalier part, I can tell you that a druid is a completely different matter. How will you roleplay that your samurai just HAPPENS to know how to talk to animals? How will you explain that your "samurai" can't wear metal armor?

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-29, 09:41 AM
Are the two samurai exclusive Orders worth staying with samurai over cavalier, or are the rest of the orders just-as-good-if-not-better?

Spore
2013-10-29, 09:55 AM
Sure.

We rolled ability scores, I ended up getting (after the +1 from level 4):

Str 18, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
Feats Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Polearm), Dazzling Display, Mounted Combat.
Right now, if I retrain full samurai, I'd lose two three of my bonus fighter feats, and I'm looking at Improved Disarm and Dazzling Display. I haven't used Disarm at all yet, and I used Dazzling Display and was unimpressed even though I succeeded at cowing everybody. Can't decide what the third one to drop should be. Trip's been getting a lot of mileage actually. It's one of the ways the zweihander and I sync real well (I trip, he Power Attacks them while they're on the ground).

Really depends on how you want to play your samurai. I'd say get rid of WF Polearm or take the fighter level for it. You have enough attack bonusses for charging and horseback that you won't need the extra +1 on attack.

I would really suggest taking the cavalier for professional mounted combat since you won't use the mounted archer (and resolve isn't as versatile as the orders of the cavalier). It will be easier to create what you want (because of the bonus feat on Lv 6). Or take Fighter 1, Samurai 4. It will be fine, trust me. Your Ride checks are good enough until you need several checks per round, but the trick rider feat is MADE for that.

I'd drop the weapon focus or take Fighter 1, Samurai 4. Eventually being Fighter 4/Samurai x with boon companion and a level appropriate mount.

Psyren
2013-10-29, 09:55 AM
That's why we can't have nice things. I agree, however this behaviour is still not clever. "I want that thing because it sounds cool." is not a very good reason.

"I want it because I want it" is really the only reason you need. Any PC class, even a T5, can handle CR-appropriate challenges and contribute as long as the higher-tier classes aren't actively overshadowing them, and that's all that matters in the end.

Spore
2013-10-29, 10:01 AM
Are the two samurai exclusive Orders worth staying with samurai over cavalier, or are the rest of the orders just-as-good-if-not-better?

Samurai orders are defensive, while cavalier orders are more tactical and flexible. That being said, some cavalier orders just SUCK (like Order of the Stars when you don't have anyone to share your faith with).

You can always talk with your DM about cavalier with samurai orders. Because that is really what you are. A fighter pledging allegiance to a samurai order while still keeping your own goals and mannerisms.


"I want it because I want it" is really the only reason you need. Any PC class, even a T5, can handle CR-appropriate challenges and contribute as long as the higher-tier classes aren't actively overshadowing them, and that's all that matters in the end.

I am not one to talk down to people because they made a different choice and I wouldn't talk someone into a character he doesn't like. I am just pointing out that a cavalier is far more flexible on the rules side than a samurai. If a samurai is what you want, then take it. It has the advantage to survive will saves my cavalier could only dream of. (I will multiclass into paladin for both flavor and covering my ass against that, because my character is fricking dangerous if mind controlled).

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-29, 10:19 AM
You can always talk with your DM about cavalier with samurai orders. Because that is really what you are. A fighter pledging allegiance to a samurai order while still keeping your own goals and mannerisms.



I actually kind of like this idea because it fits in with the dual nature of my character. He's half Tian and half Ulfen (so he's basically a samurai viking). So taking either cavalier and grabbing a samurai order or vice versa would work well to express that mechanically.

Person_Man
2013-10-29, 10:48 AM
Tell that to the Purrodaemon (CR18) my lv 9 cavalier killed with a borrowed +5 Holy Lance. He _might_ disagree. 3d6+90 on a charge isn't to be toyed with.

Many different level 9 builds can get comparable damage, especially with a lance.


You may as well ask why not be Pun-Pun. Not everyone wants 'the most options and best mechanics,' even if they're strictly more competent. Also, Druid/Paladin come with a deal of baggage that may not fit his concept anyway, while Cavalier isn't all that different from Samurai.

I think that's going a bit too far. For example, if he was playing a 3.5 Knight because he wants Test of Mettle, I wouldn't argue that he should play a PF Paladin or Druid. Similarly, if he wanted to play a PF Rogue I would suggest the superior PF Ninja, but would understand if he really wanted to use Trapfinding, Master Strike, or a specific Rogue Archetype.

But I don't see a worthwhile mechanic that the Samurai has that really sets it apart from the superior Cavalier or Paladin. I'm not arguing that people should always play the best possible class. I'm just saying I don't see a reason to play one of the worst possible classes, except for roleplaying, which you can accomplish with any class.

Psyren
2013-10-29, 11:48 AM
I'm not arguing that people should always play the best possible class. I'm just saying I don't see a reason to play one of the worst possible classes, except for roleplaying, which you can accomplish with any class.

Sorry if I misread you - but that is indeed what it looked like when you said: "why not do so with the most options and best mechanics available?" "Most" and "best" being superlatives, there's therefore nothing more superlative than Pun-Pun, so that's how I read it. I guess it irked me a little and I apologize.

As for Cavalier being better than Samurai - well, they have more facility with a mount and the shareable teamwork feats can be nice, but honestly I'd rather have Resolve myself. I don't think you can really point at one and say "he is always better than the other," especially once you get into mixing and matching their Orders.

magotter
2013-10-29, 11:53 AM
Sure.

We rolled ability scores, I ended up getting (after the +1 from level 4):

Str 18, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
Feats Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Polearm), Dazzling Display, Mounted Combat.


Alright, so I did a bit of futzing around and I think I've come up with a good recommendation for a build. And to my happy surprise, should let you Trip and Damage like a pro. Gentlemen, behold: The Hooked Lance. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/lance-hooked)

While it doesn't have a table entry on the Weapons page proper, I found it under the Polearms listing from Fighter's Weapon Training feature. As a Polearm, then, it will be a trip weapon the same as halberds and the like. However, it is also a Lance, meaning we can take full advantage of Spirited Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/spirited-charge-combat---final), granting you x3 damage.

However, this does require a slight refocus of Feats. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Power Attack should all stay; all are fantastic for you. Dazzling Display can be fantastic, but you really have to build towards it / around it. And Improved Disarm is great against weapon users, but Trip messes up everyone's day, so I'd ditch that feat.

The question is, how long do you want to stay on as a Fighter? Personally I think 4 or 6 would be optimal. You're going to lose out on times-per-day you can Challenge, but there's items like a Champion's Banner that can make you 4 levels higher for the purposes of your Challenges effects. To make the most out of a Hooked Lance you are going to need 6 feats total: Combat Expertise and Improved Trip for the Maneuver half of combat. Then Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, and Spirited Charge for the F@ck You Damaging part. Luckily you should have all of these with 4 levels of fighter alone, so it becomes my recommendation. However, certain fighter archetypes make it viable to take for 1 or 2 more levels. see below.

Now that said, let's talk options and retraining. If your GM is game for it, I can see 3 good archetypes for Fighter that will make you better at what you do. Regardless of how you multiclass, any of these three will aid you:
Dragoon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/dragoon) - Drop Tower Shields, Pick Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (Ride) as a 1st level feat slot. At 5th Level, gain weapon training with spears, except that instead of +1 Atk and +1 Dmg every few levels, you gain +1 Atk and +2 Dmg every few levels.
Roughrider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/roughrider) - Ditch Bravery's Will bonus for +1 Dodge AC and +1 to all Saves (becomes +2 at 6th Level). Don't take Armor Check Penalty on Ride Checks. +1 Atk & Dmg with all weapons... so long as you're mounted.
Two-Handed Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-handed-fighter) - Ditch Bravery, gain +1 CMB/CMD relating to Sunder (beomces +2 at 6th level). When using a 2hand weapon, add 2x Strength instead of 1.5x strength to damage.


Additionally, there's also a couple of Cavalier archetypes that'll boost you. Sadly, there's really no Samurai archetypes relevant to your setup. I really do think theming can be more important than mechanics, but I feel a choice does need to be made: Do you want to be a cavalier, a cavalier with samurai orders, or a straight up Samurai? It'll help me recommend further.

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-29, 06:59 PM
Additionally, there's also a couple of Cavalier archetypes that'll boost you. Sadly, there's really no Samurai archetypes relevant to your setup. I really do think theming can be more important than mechanics, but I feel a choice does need to be made: Do you want to be a cavalier, a cavalier with samurai orders, or a straight up Samurai? It'll help me recommend further.

I looked at the Sword Saint archetype for the Samurai. It was cool, but it seemed really situational, and not more versatile than straight fighter. Depressing (I'm trying to avoid 3PP content if I can, I feel like it'll be harder to sell the DM on those).

Honestly, I like the cavalier orders better than the samurai orders. Switching to dragoon instead of polearm master and taking boon companion and retraining two levels of fighter to either samurai or cavalier could be a good idea. I really like Resolve and prefer Weapon Expertise to Cavalier's Charge.

The only thing I really miss out on is Expert Training, but if I only have 4 levels of fighter I can more or less ignore it.

So I guess the answer to your question is: Samurai with a normal cavalier order.

Spore
2013-10-29, 07:35 PM
For your amusement and input. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zkSw0nvjLMXrjfzxUyiMWO8Hcrp9f7bR37Ur6R3W56I/edit?pli=1) Remember, the guide is written from a Cavalier perspective. Some evaluation might not apply.

I can recommend the Dragon order. It doesn't directly affect you, but you can create some godly bonusses for your comrades. Sword does more damage, Seal might seem to fit your play style, but the Lv 8 and 15 abilities are terrible compared.

magotter
2013-10-29, 08:03 PM
For your amusement and input. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zkSw0nvjLMXrjfzxUyiMWO8Hcrp9f7bR37Ur6R3W56I/edit?pli=1)

Wahey! That saved me a boatload of time. Though I did look at them all after the fact to match up to the guide. Cockatrice, Dragon, and Lion rightly seemed most relevant, and I agree with Sporeegg in Dragon being the best choice. It doesn't exactly promote your own battle tactics in its own right, but with other meleemancers in the party you can create good setup scenarios.

Now that we've got the classes nailed down, here's how I'd try to retrain the build progression:
(1) Dragoon 1, Feat: Power Attack, Bonus Feat: Mounted Combat & Skill Focus (Ride)
(2) Dragoon 2, Bonus Feat: Ride-by Attack
(3) Dragoon 3, Feat: Combat Expertise
(4) Dragoon 4, Bonus Feat, Spirited Charge
(5) Samurai 1, Feat: Improved Trip
(6) Samurai 2
(7) Samurai 3, Feat: Boon Companion

After that, sky's the limit. Those feats will bolster up your combat prowess and stick with you. Just remember to two-hand grip your hooked lance for more Power Attack Damage and strength. and never forget Ride-by Attack means that you can keep running after a charge (in order to set up for the next charge).

For the bonus feats at level 10 (samurai 6) and level 16 (Samurai 12) Indomitable Mount will keep your Mount Alive for a loooong time (use your Ride check for the mounts save). Trample is also great in order to help you pull off a Ride-by attack.

Palanan
2013-10-29, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Kevka Palazzo
So I've got a 5th-level Fighter running through the 2nd part of the Jade Reagent Adventure Path....

Am I the only one who read that and wondered if it involved alchemy?

:smalltongue:

Spore
2013-10-29, 08:16 PM
magotter, since the mount counts as animal companion, it may be time to recommend some feats for that poor thing. My mount has:

1) Toughness (extra HP for that poor d8 creature)
2) Nimble Moves (ignore 5 ft. of difficult terrain, for better charges)
5) Acrobatic Steps (ignore additional 15 ft., requires 15 dex, so only for camels or mounts of the beast rider (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/cavalier.html#_beast-rider-%28archetype%29) variety)
8) Light armor proficiency

the armor proficiency hasn't really done anything for me really (because my ride checks are good enough, AC 19 with a chain shirt tho), just remember your mount HAS them.

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-29, 08:22 PM
Am I the only one who read that and wondered if it involved alchemy?

:smalltongue:

I couldn't remember the proper spelling for regent at the time, and I was going to change it after you pointed this out, but since our ninja is kind of poison-obsessed, honestly I'm not gonna bother because it makes me laugh.

magotter: Thanks for the help. I'll discuss retraining with my DM and see where that takes me. I did write up my character rather quickly when I joined, so maybe he'll be lenient and let me do the switch.

EDIT: I should have asked this earlier, but what are my options for non-mounted combat? Right now we're in a very vertical fortress for instance, and I need to make sure that I can still be useful when my horse can't be there with me.

magotter
2013-10-29, 08:40 PM
magotter, since the mount counts as animal companion, it may be time to recommend some feats for that poor thing.

As mentioned Above, Indomitable Mount lets you make Ride checks in place of a mount's Saves. that's pretty damn great.
Nimble Mount grants Dodge AC to the mount, and unlike everything else, Dodge Stacks with all other Dodge!
Mounted Skirmisher, while it comes online late in the game (level 14) is basically Pounce, so long as your mount moves less than its full base speed. Time to invest in some speed-enhancing horseshoes, eh?
Mounted Blade is basically a free Cleave; hit on a charge, and hit the guy next to him too.




EDIT: I should have asked this earlier, but what are my options for non-mounted combat? Right now we're in a very vertical fortress for instance, and I need to make sure that I can still be useful when my horse can't be there with me.
You can still be very useful, but note your damage drops off a bit. Even before retraining your gear and feats will allow this. And with trip feats, you should probably focus on battlefield shaping while in tight quarters. As it stands you're basically a 5x5 square trip hazard. Use that to your advantage. You've got another fighter with you, so set up foes and let him beat them down.

As for post-rebuild, Spirited Charge makes your lance do x3 damage on a charge while mounted, but you can still do x2 damage on a charge without a mount, so bear that in mind. Tell me more about your current gear and skill setup. Got any intimidate? acrobatics? Bluff?

Spore
2013-10-30, 02:38 AM
As mentioned Above, Indomitable Mount lets you make Ride checks in place of a mount's Saves. that's pretty damn great.
[...]

I was talking about animal feats for the mount itself. The mount can qualify for Indomitable Mount, as it lacks skills in Riding :smallsmile:

magotter
2013-10-30, 08:41 AM
I was talking about animal feats for the mount itself. The mount can qualify for Indomitable Mount, as it lacks skills in Riding :smallsmile:

ah, apologies. Before I recommend feats, let me state that taking the Charger archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/animal-companion-archetypes/charger-companion-archetype) for your mount is paramount for any good samurai/cavalier; if only for the fact that your mount gains 1/2 your Bonuses and Penalties you get from Challenging.

Now, bear in mind that Companions/Mounts can initially only select from a very short list of feats. If the critter has an Intelligence of 3 or more, then that limit is removed (they're still bound by other prerequisites, though). Additionally, animals with an Int of 3 or more can understand your verbal commands, and can put ranks into any skill (so your horse can eventually take indomitable mount... not that it'd do any good). So first and foremost, be sure and put a point into Int when your creature hits 4 HD (and you equivalent to 4th level druid).

Unfortunately, your Mount will need to pick 2 feats before that time. Recall that you can retrain these, but I'd try and avoid asking the GM for too much of that. Here's the shortlist of feats mounts can take pre-INT-3:
Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus.

Additionally, there's a selection of Companion-specific feats to choose from:
Jumper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/jumper), Lithe Attacker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/lithe-attacker), Master of Your Kind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-of-your-kind), Narrow Frame (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/narrow-frame), Stable Gallop (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stable-gallop), Sure Footed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sure-footed), Valiant Steed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/valiant-steed).


Toughness, Improved Overrun, and Narrow Frame (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/narrow-frame) are likely going to be the best choices before the feat selection opens up. Narrow Frame (and later Lithe Attacker) especially because it means you never have to ditch your mount at the entrance of the tower/sewer/dungeon/cave/etc. If you turn every charge into an Overrun and have the Improved Overrun feat, you're not going to proc. any AoOs from movement. And since Ride-by Attack lets you move before and after your charge attack hits, this is extremely viable. The Mount Overrun-blitzes across the field back and forth, while the rider makes charge attacks to stab at foes (this is doable because Overrun is a form of Charge). For clarity, though, the rider may still want to take Trample so that he can use his CMB for the overrun; otherwise, you're using the mount's CMB. Actually, it's a bit unclear whether Trample will take up the mount's or the rider's action, but without and using just the horse's CMB it won't take the rider's action.

The mount already gets light armor proficiency, and there's enough cheap, magical, treat-as-one-category-lighter armor that I'd say that's enough, unless you really, really don't wanna spend money on the thing. Dodge, Mobility, and Improved Natural Armor are good secondaries to bolster defenses. When charging through everything and its mother, you're gonna be subject to damage, even with Improved Overrun and Mounted Combat

Now then, after the playing field opens, a few more recommendations:

Lithe Attacker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/lithe-attacker) - The other half to Narrow Frame; where the former kills the attack penalties for squeezing, this kills the defense penalties. Sadly, requires 5 ranks in Escape Artist.
Improved Initiative - The rider and mount get their own initiatives. However, to work as a team, the faster person will have to delay every combat in order to sync with the slower one. If you take this, your mount should take this.
Charge Through - that issue I mentioned earlier with Trample? No longer an issue. Overruning is now a free action while charging.
Greater Overrun - Load up your rider with a few Dex-Items and Combat reflexes. Whenever you overrun, the enemy provokes an AoO, meaning the rider can stab them! it's tripping and damage in one amazing package.
Run - doesn't assist in Charge/Overrun, but helps you reach the castle in time to stop the evil vizier. Or just beat a tactical retreat (because samurai never run from battle :smallwink:)


This should be a good start. I'll see if I can think up anything more

Edit: My grammar sucks in the morning...

Spore
2013-10-30, 04:58 PM
I don't recall any restrictions on feats based on Int scores of animals. Could you provide me with that section? I'd have to retrain a point in Dex, or otherwise my mount's feats are illegal.

magotter
2013-10-30, 05:19 PM
Could you provide me with that section?

Its all on the Animal Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions) page. Look under Skills and Feats specifically. To quote:

Skills:
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills:

Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly* (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception* (Wis), Stealth* (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim* (Str).

All of the skills marked with an (*) are class skills for animal companions. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill.

Feats:
Animal companions can select from the following feats:

Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus.

Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.

And the last part about understanding commands is both from the Aspects of Control portion of the Animal Companion Page:
Sentient Companions: a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability

and the Intelligence Section of the Abilty Scores (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) Page:
Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3.