Forms of Magic and the living dead

[Xuldarinar]

I simply wanted to start a discussion about necromancy, more specifically the raising and controlling of the undead, when it comes to forms of magic. Who is capable, who isn't, and who is the best equipped for it? For this, I think invoking homebrew and 3rd-party content is perfectly valid in this as some don't have much, if any, necromancy support inherently. Of course, the distinction should still be made.

Arcane Spells
Divine Spells
Infusions
Invocations
Meldshaping
Mysteries
Psionic Powers
Truenaming
Vestiges
-
Extracts

[Psyren]

If PF is allowed, add Extracts to your list (Alchemist.)

Best equipped would be Divine (clerics have the most support) followed by Arcane thanks to DN.

[Emperor Tippy]

Technically Psions are the best equipped thanks to their ability to get every single Necromancy spell in the entire game onto their powers known list and ignore the material component needs of said powers.

Going slightly less cheese it is Cleric's with Shapechange (via Domain) as in addition to the massive support Cleric's have with raising undead, Shapechange can be used with any of the undead that can create loyal spawn to produce an arbitrarily large number of undead under your command that don't count against your control limit and don't cost any resources to create.

After that comes Dread Necromancer's and then it gets murky.

[Vaz]

If anyone is intrigued: that is all spells to Divine by Archivist, all Divine to Arcane by Wyrm Wizard, all Arcane to Psionics by Spell to Power Erudite and onto Psion by Psychic Chirurgeory.

With the ability to ignore material codts for 2pp as well, you can get Animate Dead from the Death Master list as a 2nd level power: at 5th level, you get it for free.

Short of a Spellstitched Necropolitan with Animate Dread Warrior or a Pale Master, which require a bit of work to get into.

Any class with Shapechange allows you to gain the form of a creature with Create Spawn.

Wizard gets Animate Dread Warrior, which is about the best Undead creating spell.

[Duke Arioch]

I really liked warlock as necromancer. You get free temporary animated dead once per round, that you can use your corpsecrafter line of feats to make mini nukes of those being destroyed, slowly turning opposition into your "allies" and bombs that add more corpses to your army and heal existing army of the dead.

On a side note, I really like the positive energy "undead" (deathless, hollow dragons...). But they are not supported by ruleset as much as standard undead are.

[Xuldarinar]

If anyone is intrigued: that is all spells to Divine by Archivist, all Divine to Arcane by Wyrm Wizard, all Arcane to Psionics by Spell to Power Erudite and onto Psion by Psychic Chirurgeory.

With the ability to ignore material codts for 2pp as well, you can get Animate Dead from the Death Master list as a 2nd level power: at 5th level, you get it for free.

Short of a Spellstitched Necropolitan with Animate Dread Warrior or a Pale Master, which require a bit of work to get into.

Any class with Shapechange allows you to gain the form of a creature with Create Spawn.

Wizard gets Animate Dread Warrior, which is about the best Undead creating spell.

Huh. Well then, of official content it looks like the psions are potentially the best necromancers.

[Emperor Tippy]

Huh. Well then, of official content it looks like the psions are potentially the best necromancers.

Of official content Psions are potentially the best everything.

You get all spells and then you create an Ice Assassin of a class that you like, use Fusion with it, and then create an Ice Assassin of said Fusion creature. Repeat until you have combined every single class (and if you want monster) in the game.

Include a Magic Mantle Ardent and a level 7 Cosmic Descryer and after making yourself immune to death by HP damage manifest a ML 100 trillion Fusion to combine you and said Ice Assassin for a practically infinite amount of time. Now use Wish to cure you of all HP damage (on the list of safe Wish's).

At highest cheese and optimization nothing beats the Psion.

[Novawurmson]

At a lower level of cheese, Dreamscarred Press is working on a new discipline for psionics that directly deals with necromancy and the undead. It'll be released as a supplement called the Seventh Path.

[Xuldarinar]

Of official content Psions are potentially the best everything.

You get all spells and then you create an Ice Assassin of a class that you like, use Fusion with it, and then create an Ice Assassin of said Fusion creature. Repeat until you have combined every single class (and if you want monster) in the game.

Include a Magic Mantle Ardent and a level 7 Cosmic Descryer and after making yourself immune to death by HP damage manifest a ML 100 trillion Fusion to combine you and said Ice Assassin for a practically infinite amount of time. Now use Wish to cure you of all HP damage (on the list of safe Wish's).

At highest cheese and optimization nothing beats the Psion.

So, in a manner of speaking, is it safe to say cheddar is a psionic discipline?


At a lower level of cheese, Dreamscarred Press is working on a new discipline for psionics that directly deals with necromancy and the undead. It'll be released as a supplement called the Seventh Path.

Certainly something I will have to look into.

[Xuldarinar]

I am retracting a previous statement of mine. Psions are not the absolute best in this case. Psionic Artificers are. Why? All divine spells can be arcane. All arcane spells can be powers. All powers can be used in, and be even manifested by, psionic items.

Shadowcasters can make for interesting necromancers, given certain homebrew mysteries and the Shadow Necromancer PrC (also homebrew). Otherwise, they can get some effects similar and while they do have necromancy mysteries, the closest they officially get to raising the dead is that one 9th level mystery, Consume Essence (Save, or die.. be returned to life immediately with the dark creature template under the control of the shadowcaster, then die after 1 round/level. Echo spell can cover some of that as well if you spend time around necromancers though.

Even so, artificers (and by extension their psionic counterparts too) could make items associated with mysteries, so that becomes a moot point in comparison.

As far as meldshaping goes, the specific ones for necromancy could be attained easily by tossing a few feats, though there is something to be said for Necrocarnates.

Vestiges, im not aware of any necromancy with them. Nothing official at least.

We have already addressed that wonderful invocation, the dead walk. Im not aware of any way of making a magic item of this or attaining this via feat, so I think this is unique in that psionic artificers cannot touch this without mutliclassing.

With pathfinder and extracts, they do make decent necromancers as far as I know but sub-par as far as i've heard.

[Emperor Tippy]

I am retracting a previous statement of mine. Psions are not the absolute best in this case. Psionic Artificers are. Why? All divine spells can be arcane. All arcane spells can be powers. All powers can be used in, and be even manifested by, psionic items.

And yet a Psion can use all of those spells and powers at will with no need for items.

A Psionic Artificer needs items, which makes it inherently weaker than an individual who can do the exact same thing without the need for items.

[Psyren]

I agree the psion would be stronger but they're both T0 anyway. You're basically comparing Einstein to Stephen Hawking at that point.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I agree the psion would be stronger but they're both T0 anyway. You're basically comparing Einstein to Stephen Hawking at that point.

And we all know how that battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn7-fVtT16k) ends, don't we?

[A Tad Insane]

Binders make horrible necromancers when compared to other classes that can do it. They have one vestige that can rebuke undead, and a prc based of it, but you need to be able to cast rebuke already and need divine spell casting, so it's half cleric already.

[Lord Haart]

They have one vestige that can rebuke undead, and a prc based of it, but you need to be able to cast rebuke already and need divine spell casting, so it's half cleric already.

Actually, they don't need divine spellcasting to get into that PrC, and its rebuke undead requirement may or may not be fulfilled by the vestige itself, with a good arguement in favor of "may".

[Psyren]

And we all know how that battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn7-fVtT16k) ends, don't we?

My favorite lines from that were and still are "Albert E = MC squared" and "10 million million.... particles" :smallbiggrin:

[Xuldarinar]

Oh, I love that video. Gotta say though: "When I apply my battle theory, minds are relatively blown." Cranial Deluge comes to mind.

[gorfnab]

Nightstalkers (Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon) can be mediocre necromancers. Plus, having three ghost cohorts is a nice boost for any necromancy based character.

[Max Caysey]

I think the important thing is that some might be more based around controlling undead and some might be greater actual spell casters of necromating spells.