DM needs advice

[Mechanize]

I need some spells, abilities, monsters and ideas to help me deal with constructs and ghosts.

Actually, first I would like to ask how a 10th level warlock has a DR of 9 when the book says 3 at 11th level, and how he has a ghost cohort?

Another player is an artificer that makes these absurd constructs that decimate everything.

I took over a high level campaign, and have very little experience with 3.5. I'm having trouble keeping things balanced at this level. I have people who are using just the core books, phb1 and 2, and players who, it feels like, just make up what they want lol.

I plan on giving the players a sort of story line special ability, and will definitely be giving some players much better buffs than others. Short of that though, I need some way to easily shut down these guys "by the book." I have been making stuff up as I go along, but I'd like to be able to do it legitimately as well.

[Red Fel]

The short answer: It's hard to do what you're doing.

It's extremely difficult to "make stuff up as you go along" and still balance the "by the book" elements. I was in precisely one campaign where our DM allowed this, and it was under tightly controlled circumstances - each of us was allowed a single homebrewed feat at level 1, subject to explicit uses and restrictions and DM approval, which fit with and integrated into our character concepts.

If you feel that they're doing something they shouldn't be doing, first remove all "make stuff up" elements. Go explicitly by the book. A new DM probably shouldn't be homebrewing things anyway - wait until you have more of a feel for the DM chair before you risk imbalance like that.

Next, explain your inexperience to your players, beg their indulgence, and go through their character sheets with them. If you come across anything worrisome, ask them, "So explain this part to me, please?"

It's time-consuming, but if a player wants a good game, they need a good DM; if they want a good DM, they need him to be well-informed. And if they laugh you off or refuse, that's a sign that there may be some friction down the road.

[Epsilon Rose]

Rust monsters and oozes for the warforged? If you don't mind giving monsters pc classes, incarnates can hit ghosts very easily (crystal helm gives their attacks the [force] descriptor) and other ghosts or similar creatures should also be fine. Similarly, the warlock's dr should have a bypass and energy damage shouldn't care either way. It sounds like you need smarter encounters, not tougher ones. Start having them face more intelligent enemies and organizations that actually do scouting and research their weaknesses before they engage.

On a related note, you may want to audit their sheets. Make sure they're actually playing by the book and can explain anything you don't understand yourself.

[Captnq]

I need some spells, abilities, monsters and ideas to help me deal with constructs and ghosts.


You need a whole LOT of things, I'm not sure exactly what. Can you try asking a question like: How do I make a ghost?



Actually, first I would like to ask how a 10th level warlock has a DR of 9 when the book says 3 at 11th level, and how he has a ghost cohort?


Okay, asking me to hunt down whatever book warlocks are in and whatever you are talking about is rude. What book. Page number. DR of 9. What is a DR of 9. Are you talking about DAMAGE RESISTANCE 9/-? Or DR 9/Slashing? Or what?

Which book. 3 What? 11th level what? Cohort Where?

PLOT. FACTS. CONDENSE. TELL IT.



Another player is an artificer that makes these absurd constructs that decimate everything.


They do that. It's their thing. Is he 20th level? Is he doing this at 3rd? I'd be impressed if he was pulling this off at 3rd level. And is there a question here?



I took over a high level campaign, and have very little experience with 3.5. I'm having trouble keeping things balanced at this level. I have people who are using just the core books, phb1 and 2, and players who, it feels like, just make up what they want lol.


See, this part should go at the beginning. You start with background, move onto explaining the problem, end with questions. Just saying. That's the usual format. Now, this whole, avant garde thing you got going, Eh, might work for some people, not for me.



I plan on giving the players a sort of story line special ability, and will definitely be giving some players much better buffs than others. Short of that though, I need some way to easily shut down these guys "by the book." I have been making stuff up as I go along, but I'd like to be able to do it legitimately as well.

What's a Story Line Special Ability? What are they at now? how do you want them shut down? Dead? Bloody noses? Turned into small flightless birds and fed to lazy cats?

You know, If I wasn't so busy trying to finish my Armor Handbook, I'd write the DM handbook, I swear.

Alrightie, BY THE LINKS.

Here's the NOOB Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.msg153181#msg153181).
Here's the Spell Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg72093#msg72093).
Here's the Weapon Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9053.msg183871#msg183871).
Here's the Spellcasting Class List (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg73050#msg73050).

Read all that and you will be able to ruthlesslessly crush all that oppose you by making the single most destructive NPCs allowed by the rules, bar none.

Have fun. Don't take any wooden nickles. Look both ways before crossing the street. Wait a half hour before you go swimming after a big heavy meal. Don't take candy from strangers. Nobody wears white after labor day.

[Mechanize]

You need a whole LOT of things, I'm not sure exactly what. Can you try asking a question like: How do I make a ghost?



Okay, asking me to hunt down whatever book warlocks are in and whatever you are talking about is rude. What book. Page number. DR of 9. What is a DR of 9. Are you talking about DAMAGE RESISTANCE 9/-? Or DR 9/Slashing? Or what?

Which book. 3 What? 11th level what? Cohort Where?

PLOT. FACTS. CONDENSE. TELL IT.



They do that. It's their thing. Is he 20th level? Is he doing this at 3rd? I'd be impressed if he was pulling this off at 3rd level. And is there a question here?



See, this part should go at the beginning. You start with background, move onto explaining the problem, end with questions. Just saying. That's the usual format. Now, this whole, avant garde thing you got going, Eh, might work for some people, not for me.



What's a Story Line Special Ability? What are they at now? how do you want them shut down? Dead? Bloody noses? Turned into small flightless birds and fed to lazy cats?

You know, If I wasn't so busy trying to finish my Armor Handbook, I'd write the DM handbook, I swear.

Alrightie, BY THE LINKS.

Here's the NOOB Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.msg153181#msg153181).
Here's the Spell Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg72093#msg72093).
Here's the Weapon Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9053.msg183871#msg183871).
Here's the Spellcasting Class List (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg73050#msg73050).

Read all that and you will be able to ruthlesslessly crush all that oppose you by making the single most destructive NPCs allowed by the rules, bar none.

Have fun. Don't take any wooden nickles. Look both ways before crossing the street. Wait a half hour before you go swimming after a big heavy meal. Don't take candy from strangers. Nobody wears white after labor day.

I come here asking for advice, obviously, because I don't have time to read 50 D&D books. Just looking for some quick simple answers. No, I don't want to ask how to make a ghost.

There is also nothing rude about asking a question. No one asked you to hunt stuff down. Many people on here have played long enough that they have the knowledge, at the ready, without looking things up. If you thought my request was rude then don't reply to it.

I said in my 2nd sentence that the warlock was level 10. One may assume that the artificer is a similar level? And even then, why does it matter? My issue is with disparity of power between party members.

I asked a simple question... spells, abilities, monsters, and ideas to deal with constructs and ghosts. I thank those who actually answered the question rather than swearing they need to write a DM handbook.

[Red Fel]

That reminds me, I didn't respond to that part of your inquiry.

Against Constructs, you have various spells, such as Crumble (works on any construct), Rusting Fog and Rust Ray (metal constructs), and sonic spells that deal additional damage to objects and constructs. There is also a Warforged feat, Construct Lock, that allows the user to paralyze constructs on a successful melee attack.

Against Ghosts, you want to negate incorporeality, which you can do with enhancements like Ghost Touch or Ghost Strike, or by making an attacker ethereal. As an added bonus, Ghost Strike can deal critical and sneak attack damage to undead. You also might consider abilities that specifically target undead, such as various positive energy spells, Turn Undead, and the like.

[Mechanize]

That reminds me, I didn't respond to that part of your inquiry.

Against Constructs, you have various spells, such as Crumble (works on any construct), Rusting Fog and Rust Ray (metal constructs), and sonic spells that deal additional damage to objects and constructs. There is also a Warforged feat, Construct Lock, that allows the user to paralyze constructs on a successful melee attack.

Against Ghosts, you want to negate incorporeality, which you can do with enhancements like Ghost Touch or Ghost Strike, or by making an attacker ethereal. As an added bonus, Ghost Strike can deal critical and sneak attack damage to undead. You also might consider abilities that specifically target undead, such as various positive energy spells, Turn Undead, and the like.

Lol, thanks, and no worries. You weren't a wanker with your first reply. I did ask for advice and you gave it. :P

[Dawgmoah]

I need some spells, abilities, monsters and ideas to help me deal with constructs and ghosts.

Actually, first I would like to ask how a 10th level warlock has a DR of 9 when the book says 3 at 11th level, and how he has a ghost cohort?

Another player is an artificer that makes these absurd constructs that decimate everything.

I took over a high level campaign, and have very little experience with 3.5. I'm having trouble keeping things balanced at this level. I have people who are using just the core books, phb1 and 2, and players who, it feels like, just make up what they want lol.

I plan on giving the players a sort of story line special ability, and will definitely be giving some players much better buffs than others. Short of that though, I need some way to easily shut down these guys "by the book." I have been making stuff up as I go along, but I'd like to be able to do it legitimately as well.

Sort of a high level reply, as I do not have access to the books at the moment. And you are in a tight spot inheriting a high level campaign.

One suggestion not made yet: Ask the players about a reboot? Start all over with YOUR campaign world and you can grow as a DM.

A quick question that comes to mind is: What is this artificer making these constructs out of? How much time is he spending to build them? I've had folks try to build the equivalent of a main battle tank with a hammer, wrench, and a few coke cans. Building constructs can get expensive: there may not be enough raw gold, platinum, mithral, etc, around to keep building anything overwhelming.

Ghosts? Have a clerical order in the nearest town take issue with it. Have the priests proclaim from the pulpit that evildoers will be punished, etc. Have ghost hunters congregate in the area.

A campaign world is living entity while a player party could be considered an infection. The world is populated by lots of people, some who may take issue with what the party is doing. There will be those who will want to take advantage of them, use them, or oppose them for any number of reasons.

Think of what they are doing and who in the area would or could take issue with it.

[Stux]

Looks like you could do with auditing your players' character sheets. This is a perfectly reasonable thing for a DM to do every so often, as everyone makes mistakes from time to time.

Just go through everyone's sheets and make sure they have the correct number of feats/skill ranks, have calculated their AC properly and so on. If you can't figure something out (such as this warlocks DR), then ask the player exactly how they have it this high. If they can't explain it then they don't have it.

[Duke Arioch]

Looks like you could do with auditing your players' character sheets. This is a perfectly reasonable thing for a DM to do every so often, as everyone makes mistakes from time to time.

Just go through everyone's sheets and make sure they have the correct number of feats/skill ranks, have calculated their AC properly and so on. If you can't figure something out (such as this warlocks DR), then ask the player exactly how they have it this high. If they can't explain it then they don't have it.

This.

If you can take a look at their character sheets, you will have insight into what they are doing. Next time you play, ask them to keep all of their sheets with you until your next session. This will give you time to go through it all. If you find disparities or things you (and player) cannot explain, there is your issue.
Also, you may want to check crafting rules. Crafting anything takes TIME and takes a lot of GOLD (this includes materials and hired hands). Building a construct might take weeks, even months. Not to mention that anyone can make a failed craft check which in turn will increase the time and costs.

Remember, as a DM you should have complete control over the game world. In your world, exotic crafting materials might me more difficult to find. Rust monsters might become a common pest. Nature/wild loving radical groups might be the majority of NPCs your group meets, and these might not like having "unnatural" and "technological" thing as construct.
You may introduce a religious sect that is almost fanatical with destroying all undead, and especially those pesky incorporeal undead. This should give a ghost player pause at what he is doing. Also, you might want to introduce an NPC that is of a very high level, who can cast as wizard or something similar. He/she could play a role of arbiter or protector of something. And even a wizard 20 can do a lot of stuff to hinder constructs and ghosts.

All of this is if you want to counter what your group can pull off. But in my honest opinion, you should probably talk to them and tell them that you have issues with jumping in high powered game. Make a gentleman's agreement to start from scratch (or maybe level3?).

[Mechanize]

This.

If you can take a look at their character sheets, you will have insight into what they are doing. Next time you play, ask them to keep all of their sheets with you until your next session. This will give you time to go through it all. If you find disparities or things you (and player) cannot explain, there is your issue.
Also, you may want to check crafting rules. Crafting anything takes TIME and takes a lot of GOLD (this includes materials and hired hands). Building a construct might take weeks, even months. Not to mention that anyone can make a failed craft check which in turn will increase the time and costs.

Remember, as a DM you should have complete control over the game world. In your world, exotic crafting materials might me more difficult to find. Rust monsters might become a common pest. Nature/wild loving radical groups might be the majority of NPCs your group meets, and these might not like having "unnatural" and "technological" thing as construct.
You may introduce a religious sect that is almost fanatical with destroying all undead, and especially those pesky incorporeal undead. This should give a ghost player pause at what he is doing. Also, you might want to introduce an NPC that is of a very high level, who can cast as wizard or something similar. He/she could play a role of arbiter or protector of something. And even a wizard 20 can do a lot of stuff to hinder constructs and ghosts.

All of this is if you want to counter what your group can pull off. But in my honest opinion, you should probably talk to them and tell them that you have issues with jumping in high powered game. Make a gentleman's agreement to start from scratch (or maybe level3?).

I know I need practice, hell everyone does, but I don't feel that is the issue. I'm ok with running a high level campaign. The few pointers you guys gave me already have helped a lot. The problem is that half of the players only use core material, so it doesn't matter much because the other half of the group will always be far superior to the others. It's just not an even playing field for everyone and that bothers me.

[Story]

Why not ask the players if they would be willing to give/receive optimization advice to/from the others?

[Duke Arioch]

And, again, I have to point you towards gentleman's agreement. Either optimized characters have to tone it down a bit, or the less optimized have to try to tone it up (you and other players can offer advice on this). Otherwise, the game will go to hell. Either you will have to up the CR to challenge the optimized players, and in turn probably kill off the rest of the party, or you keep it as it is and make it a cakewalk for optimized characters, making others feel inadequate.
So, to reiterate: talk to players and come up with a balanced party.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The DR might be associated with the the Fey Heritage line of feats, with Fey Skin. It might stack with a warlock's existing DR/cold iron, but I'm not quite sure.

As for the rest... looks like it's been all but handled. And a +1 on the auditing of PC sheets - I tend to do it every 3/4 levels, or earlier if I suspect something's up.

[visigani]

Why not create an encounter that destroys the party? If the players can "optimize" why can't you?

Because really what you want to do is break their arms. You want to punish them. Show these men of optimization what optimization really is...

Or, just use Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/). Players don't stand a chance againt "Tucker's Kobolds".

Instead of Tucker's Kobolds though, just make them Mechanized Pixies or somesuch.

A group of lvl 4 pixie rogues that open with a surprise round with a permanent image of a huge construct crashing through the underbrush and focused fire sneak attacks against a caster or the casters will make short work of most opponents because most opponents that have optimized become stupid and complacent so they're easy to squash when they're vulnerable.

[Mechanize]

Yeah, I've tried to talk to some of the players through email. It is kind of helping, but I may just set aside an hour during the next session to just openly discuss the issues. Hopefully some agreement can be made.

The DR is coming from fey heritage. Does it legally stack? I don't see why it does, very few things seem to stack in this game if they are the same.

I'd like to refrain from flat out killing everyone, especially due to only half of the group deserving it lol... The fact is though, if I set up something to kill them, it will no doubt kill the weaker members unless I blatantly avoid doing so.

Edit: Oh, and I cant really do surprise rounds when our druid rolls 40s for perception checks and has scent, blind sense... one or both of those. i forget. Unless, there is another way? I'm really good at making stuff up that bypasses those things, but I am sure it just annoys the players ^_^

[Kuulvheysoon]

Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) lets your Hide/Move Silently checks explicitly ignore scent/blindsense/blindsight, but can do nothing for the high Perception checks of the druid.

[Stux]

It's just not an even playing field for everyone and that bothers me.

There are ways to handle this. Come up with encounters with more going on than a straight fight.

Say the party needs to protect a priest or something from a group of mercenaries storming through the chapel, but at the same time a wizard is flying above attempting to cast spells that collapse the roof of the chapel. The optimised characters will have to go off and deal with the wizard, but there is still stuff that needs doing inside fighting off the waves of mercs. That is just an example off the top of my head, I'm sure knowing your characters and setting you can come up with something awesome if you think about it.

[Stux]

The DR is coming from fey heritage. Does it legally stack? I don't see why it does, very few things seem to stack in this game if they are the same.

Your instinct is right, it is not legal. From the SRD:


If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

[Zweisteine]

I just skimmed the thread, so I don't quite get what everyone is saying, but I do have one idea.

Get copies of their character sheets (with book and page references, if possible). Then check if anything making them powerful is often discussed on these or other D&D forums, and see if there are any common houserules about any of those things.

You could pit them against a cleric to deal with the ghost... Not so sure what to do about constructs.

If all else fails, just give them harder encounters to match their power levels.

If you want to go really extreme, go post a thread titles "Easy challenge: strategize to beat these guys," and link to the character sheets within.

Also, how did he get a cohort at all? If it was from leadership, you could put yourself in full control of the cohort, which is technically an NPC, IIRC. If he's a thrallherd, or else with a variation on leadership, the same probably applies. It's not easy to get a cohort that doesn't technically require DM approval (I think).

[Stux]

Also, how did he get a cohort at all? If it was from leadership, you could put yourself in full control of the cohort, which is technically an NPC, IIRC. If he's a thrallherd, or else with a variation on leadership, the same probably applies. It's not easy to get a cohort that doesn't technically require DM approval (I think).

Yeah, how Leadership is handled is completely up to the DM. It is left very vague. This is why most DMs either don't allow it, or make pretty strict limitations on it. It doesn't explicitly state the cohort is an NPC, but at the same time it doesn't explicitly state the player has control of it. It also doesn't say anything about whether the player can choose the build of the cohort (beyond race, class and allignment which are listed) or whether they just have to make do with what the DM gives them.

[Morphie]

As the DM you should be the one deciding what they can choose and what books are allowed. If your players just choose freely what they want and make stuff up they are disregarding your role and they could be cheating. Let them know who is in charge, if they're optimizing in a way that disrupts the game (cheese galore), you can and should be the ohe stopping it and pointing a way to keep it balanced.
Also, +1 for auditing the player's sheets.

[Mechanize]

Fey Skin

Prerequisite:
Fey Heritage (CM) , Nonlawful alignment,

Benefit: You gain damage reduction (overcome by cold iron) equal to 1 + the number of feats you have that list Fey Heritage as a prerequisite (including such feats that you take after gaining this one). For example, if you have Fey Skin and Fey Presence, you would have damage reduction 3/cold iron.
This value stacks with any similar damage reduction you might have from your type, subtype, race, or class, but not from other sources, such as spells or magic items.

So his DR stacking IS legit then right?

[Stux]

Hmm, I guess so... but he claims he has DR 9 at level 11? If that is 3 from Warlock, does he really have 5 heritage feats?

Also, 'ghost' is a template. The Leadership feat doesn't mention anything about giving a cohort a template. I think it is totally reasonable for you to disallow that.

[Mechanize]

Hmm, I guess so... but he claims he has DR 9 at level 11? If that is 3 from Warlock, does he really have 5 heritage feats?

Also, 'ghost' is a template. The Leadership feat doesn't mention anything about giving a cohort a template. I think it is totally reasonable for you to disallow that.

Don't know if there are more not listed, but dndtools.eu only shows 4 heritage feats.

[Mechanize]

As the DM you should be the one deciding what they can choose and what books are allowed. If your players just choose freely what they want and make stuff up they are disregarding your role and they could be cheating. Let them know who is in charge, if they're optimizing in a way that disrupts the game (cheese galore), you can and should be the ohe stopping it and pointing a way to keep it balanced.
Also, +1 for auditing the player's sheets.

1 problem is that I am not good enough at 3.5 to be auditing anything. I can ask, but it usually requires research.

Another problem is that the previous DM allowed almost any book, but 3 of the players just use core. I didn't want people to have to rewrite characters by disallowing books. I don't mind the extra books, I just have to do something to get the other 3 guys up to par.

[Epsilon Rose]

1 problem is that I am not good enough at 3.5 to be auditing anything. I can ask, but it usually requires research.

Another problem is that the previous DM allowed almost any book, but 3 of the players just use core. I didn't want people to have to rewrite characters by disallowing books. I don't mind the extra books, I just have to do something to get the other 3 guys up to par.

You might be able to post their sheets here and ask for someone who's more experienced to give them a look.

[Tim Proctor]

I would tell them you're bowing out and starting a new campaign. Tell them that you have no idea what they are doing at this high level and that they can start a Core campaign again at level 1 but you can't give them an appropriate campaign as it is now.

There is no shame in that, especially since your characters are cheating. We've all heard plenty of horror stories from players about a DM that couldn't match what the players were going to do, and they either felt the DM was attacking them or just gave everything away.

Honestly, I'd either read those 50-books (67 not counting 3.0 or Campaign Specific), bow out, or just let them do what they want for a time.

Consider making them the lords of the realm more powerful than anything else but be prepared to pull out CR 15 stuff if they go elsewhere. Let them be king for a day (while you catch up) and then challenge them. Honestly I would fiat every fight unless they went somewhere else, then I would have interplanar forces attack them. Take your time and get caught up, there is no hurry, sandbox them and drown them in sand.

[Invader]

You could always just say screw those guys and play with the good group :smallamused:

[Invader]

Aside from that I'll help you look at their sheets to see what's up.

[tyckspoon]

So his DR stacking IS legit then right?

At the cost of spending pretty much all his other feats on fairly poor choices, yes. Although you'll want to double-check the actual end value - the Fey Heritage feat itself doesn't count toward the bonus, just the Fey Whatever feats that have it as a prereq. I'd also check his feat count, because the 5 Heritage feats plus Leadership is a *lot* of feats (especially since most of them have level prereqs) to be carrying around at level 10.



Also, 'ghost' is a template. The Leadership feat doesn't mention anything about giving a cohort a template. I think it is totally reasonable for you to disallow that.

Nah, it's legit; cohorts are put together like PCs, including templates or weird monstrous racial choices. You just also have to suck up the LAs and/or RHDs that come with that.. and remember the maximum ECL of a Cohort is 2 less than the Leader character's. That level 10 Warlock's Ghost follower eats up 5 of his ECL 8 allotment just in being a ghost, and should not have more than 3 class levels/hit dice/further LA in templates.

[AzureKnight]

An idea that may help you, being a fairly new dm, is to simply have them roll up a new character. Tell them you have an adventure that requires them to create the ancestors of their current charaters. Give them your stipulations, roll methods and allowed and disallowed resources. You can then build their story lines and learn how to deal with the players and how they level their classes.

Once you achieve the desired level that allows you to be comfortable with the higher levels, You can tie the fates of the decendents to their ancestors. Example being the older characters could have saught a relic that supposedly held a great celestial power inprisoned, but in truth they released a powerful entity from the abyss.

Now the decendents need to quest to find a series of items that will allow then to travel back in time to stop their ancestors and prevent a future apocalyptic event.

[Stux]

Nah, it's legit; cohorts are put together like PCs, including templates or weird monstrous racial choices. You just also have to suck up the LAs and/or RHDs that come with that.. and remember the maximum ECL of a Cohort is 2 less than the Leader character's. That level 10 Warlock's Ghost follower eats up 5 of his ECL 8 allotment just in being a ghost, and should not have more than 3 class levels/hit dice/further LA in templates.

Is it really legit though? Or is that an assumed interpretation? The entry for the feat just says you can pick race, class, and alignment. Nothing else. There may well be an FAQ or something though...

Word to the OP though: next time just don't allow Leadership. It is a super powerful feat if you let it run rampant. In my opinion it is better to just ban.

[Mechanize]

At the cost of spending pretty much all his other feats on fairly poor choices, yes. Although you'll want to double-check the actual end value - the Fey Heritage feat itself doesn't count toward the bonus, just the Fey Whatever feats that have it as a prereq. I'd also check his feat count, because the 5 Heritage feats plus Leadership is a *lot* of feats (especially since most of them have level prereqs) to be carrying around at level 10.



Nah, it's legit; cohorts are put together like PCs, including templates or weird monstrous racial choices. You just also have to suck up the LAs and/or RHDs that come with that.. and remember the maximum ECL of a Cohort is 2 less than the Leader character's. That level 10 Warlock's Ghost follower eats up 5 of his ECL 8 allotment just in being a ghost, and should not have more than 3 class levels/hit dice/further LA in templates.

Yeah, he is being kinda short with his answers but so far it seems he has taken fey heritage, 4 fey feats (giving him dr5+2 fromwarlock) then probably took something like thick skin which gives another 2 DR AND undead leadership. He is human so that is 5 feats, 2 more if he took flaws. Not sure what flaws he took though if that is the case.

As for the ghost... Honestly the only thing that really bothers me about it is that the damn thing has a feat that allows him to manipulate physical objects, and that, according to him, when it dies it just rematerializes. So it pretty much cant be killed and it can trigger traps, pull levers, open doors, and pretty much take care of most of the party's physical skill challenges. :/

[tyckspoon]

Don't really want to focus this thread on just the one character, but it's the only one you've really given us information on so far..

Feats:
He's got 2 feats that require a minimum of 6th level and one that requires 9th level. He has only 2 feat slots over those levels. Either his character is currently illegal and needs to be modified, or he needs to walk you through whatever method he used to do that so you can be aware of it in the future (and possibly consider banning or modifying how it works.)

Ghost Cohort: Again, find out specifically what ability he thinks lets him do the things he claims. Because it sounds like he's hugely overselling what a Ghost's Rejuvenation actually does.. to wit:

In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a ghost through simple combat: The "destroyed" spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A ghost that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.

Important restrictions bolded - if it gets destroyed, it *could* come back, but they'll be without it for a significant period of time. And that's if it is capable of coming back.. as I mentioned, the maximum ECL permitted for the Ghost as a cohort of a level 10 PC is ECL 8. Five of that gets eaten by the Ghost template's Level Adjustment, and so does not count toward its bonus on this level check. That leaves a maximum of d20+3 against DC 16 to be able to Rejuvenate, which is not a very easy check to make. Odds are against that ghost surviving if you actually do 'destroy' it a couple of times.

[Stux]

Yup, that ghost is either incredibly lucky or should have permanently died a long time ago.

Point this out to the player and he will probably be a LOT more careful with his ghost from now on! :smallbiggrin:

[Mechanize]

Don't really want to focus this thread on just the one character, but it's the only one you've really given us information on so far..

Feats:
He's got 2 feats that require a minimum of 6th level and one that requires 9th level. He has only 2 feat slots over those levels. Either his character is currently illegal and needs to be modified, or he needs to walk you through whatever method he used to do that so you can be aware of it in the future (and possibly consider banning or modifying how it works.)

Ghost Cohort: Again, find out specifically what ability he thinks lets him do the things he claims. Because it sounds like he's hugely overselling what a Ghost's Rejuvenation actually does.. to wit:


Important restrictions bolded - if it gets destroyed, it *could* come back, but they'll be without it for a significant period of time. And that's if it is capable of coming back.. as I mentioned, the maximum ECL permitted for the Ghost as a cohort of a level 10 PC is ECL 8. Five of that gets eaten by the Ghost template's Level Adjustment, and so does not count toward its bonus on this level check. That leaves a maximum of d20+3 against DC 16 to be able to Rejuvenate, which is not a very easy check to make. Odds are against that ghost surviving if you actually do 'destroy' it a couple of times.

He said the ghost has "ghostly grasp" which is what allows it to manipulate the physical objects. He never said what exactly allows it to keep coming back, but if it is just that rejuvenate ability then I probably shouldn't be to worried because that is nothing extraordinary.

I guess I am just falling for the way he words stuff. It seems like he tries to be in control of what happens to him. If I say one thing, he tells me he can get out of it, or avoid it, before he even rolls to try, or knows what he is really up against lol. *sigh*

[Zweisteine]

Start a sentence that you know he will interrupt, then call wait while he talks. Finish the sentence with "Vecna is standing before you, simmering with rage."


More seriously. To deal with the ghost handling everything, put them through a dungeon run by monsters that were expecting them. Make everything be covered in holy water, consecrate the dungeon, etc.

If you feel you aren't good enough at auditing character sheets, throw them at the Playground. That should work pretty well.

[Stux]

He said the ghost has "ghostly grasp" which is what allows it to manipulate the physical objects.

The text of the feat is:


You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I take that to mean it can use personal items, not that the ghost can interact with absolutely everything in the world as if it were corporeal.

[Mechanize]

The text of the feat is:



Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I take that to mean it can use personal items, not that the ghost can interact with absolutely everything in the world as if it were corporeal.

Definitely sounds like it is meant for items instead of being able to manipulate the world... I'll have to see. The party actually has no rogue, so in some ways, I don't mind that he can manipulate the world. But I don't want it to be an instant win vs these obstructions either. I think I will make the ghost roll a will power based check when he wants to manipulate things so that at least I have some way of limiting what he can do.

[Stux]

Definitely sounds like it is meant for items instead of being able to manipulate the world... I'll have to see. The party actually has no rogue, so in some ways, I don't mind that he can manipulate the world. But I don't want it to be an instant win vs these obstructions either. I think I will make the ghost roll a will power based check when he wants to manipulate things so that at least I have some way of limiting what he can do.

First off if it is something that would require a skill check such as a locked door then he still needs to make the check. And with this ghost's level adjustment of +5 it is not going to have many skill ranks.

Second now you understand how the rejuvenate ability works he shouldn't be spamming this stuff with the ghost so much. If the ghost dies he has a long wait till it comes back, and that's if it succeeds the check. Also note it says the ghost returns to its regular haunting grounds when it returns, so this will likely be nowhere near the party.

[Mechanize]

First off if it is something that would require a skill check such as a locked door then he still needs to make the check. And with this ghost's level adjustment of +5 it is not going to have many skill ranks.

Second now you understand how the rejuvenate ability works he shouldn't be spamming this stuff with the ghost so much. If the ghost dies he has a long wait till it comes back, and that's if it succeeds the check. Also note it says the ghost returns to its regular haunting grounds when it returns, so this will likely be nowhere near the party.

I think he set it up so that the ghost (his brother) returns to this doll that he (its actually a girl he plays) carries around. Sounds like hes kinda bending the rules in his favor, but the less he abuses it the more likely I am to let him let the ghost return to the doll.

[Stux]

I think he set it up so that the ghost (his brother) returns to this doll that he (its actually a girl he plays) carries around. Sounds like hes kinda bending the rules in his favor, but the less he abuses it the more likely I am to let him let the ghost return to the doll.

Yeah this kind of thing is not RAW at all. He totally needs to run this stuff by you first.

[Zweisteine]

Hmm... So, with 5 Fey Heritage feats and Undead Leadership, all his feats are taken, unless he has a racial feat... That isn't actually all that optimal, I think. A lot of other feats would probably have been better. Just set him against things that don't deal straight damage (poison, magic, etc).


Yeah this kind of thing is not RAW at all. He totally needs to run this stuff by you first.

To those two statements: Not entirely, and yes.
This is what it sounds like to me: The character's brother died and returned as a ghost. Ghosts are often bound to something of great personal importance, in this case, the doll. The problem here is that the player created an NPC, and made special choices regarding the NPC without the DM's permission. That is pretty bad, but it could be an honest mistake (in most cases (except more socially-focused adventures), the players will just make and play the cohort as a second character).


But the way Undead Leadership works, he would not be able to choose his cohort that specifically, and a ghost remaining in the world because of a personal, item-related conflict would not answer the summons anyway. Of course, if you had approved the character's brother's ghost being bound to the doll in the first place, I would say that the family relationship and backstory (only if those exist, though) reasons could let the ghost be the character's cohort.


I don't know what to do about it short of directly confronting the player and talking it out.

In-game, you could have an enemy (probably a necromancer, or someone else skilled in the ways of the dead) destroy the doll, which could easily end the ghost's existence.


Also, if you want to surprise them, have their enemies use tactical teleportation, or invisibility (or greater invisibility). Or just wait until night, when their worst watchman is on watch duty.
That, or just attacking from very far away,

Three Arrow Demons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=4) might be just what you're looking for, especially if they are summoned (but not during a separate encounter). Don't forget their strategy, and teleport a lot.

[Mechanize]

Another question... does grappling bypass DR? I talked to another DM who has a lot of experience who likes to rule that DR is meant for weapons with slashing/piercing/bludgeoning.

I like the ruling... DR is kinda sorta meant to signify tough skin. (even though natural armor does this to, another weird thing I don't like about 3.5) Grappling is the act of choking, or manipulating the body underneath the skin. Jiu jitsu was actually invented for the sole purpose of kicking a samurai's ass while he was in armor and you lost your sword because it manipulates the joints in such a fashion in which armor is useless.

Opinions?

[Douglas]

It sounds like some of your players are stretching things a bit far, but might still be on the legal side of the rules line. We could give you a lot more help understanding and ruling on these things if you would get and post their entire character sheets.


Another question... does grappling bypass DR? I talked to another DM who has a lot of experience who likes to rule that DR is meant for weapons with slashing/piercing/bludgeoning.

I like the ruling... DR is kinda sorta meant to signify tough skin. (even though natural armor does this to, another weird thing I don't like about 3.5) Grappling is the act of choking, or manipulating the body underneath the skin. Jiu jitsu was actually invented for the sole purpose of kicking a samurai's ass while he was in armor and you lost your sword because it manipulates the joints in such a fashion in which armor is useless.

Opinions?
By the Rules, no it does not. The "damage your opponent" grappling option is equivalent to an unarmed strike, and for most characters that means normal bludgeoning damage.

Armor is irrelevant to this argument, as armor does not provide DR. In fact, armor is already useless against grappling because the only attack rolls involved in grappling target touch AC which armor does not apply to.

[Mechanize]

It sounds like some of your players are stretching things a bit far, but might still be on the legal side of the rules line. We could give you a lot more help understanding and ruling on these things if you would get and post their entire character sheets.


By the Rules, no it does not. The "damage your opponent" grappling option is equivalent to an unarmed strike, and for most characters that means normal bludgeoning damage.

Armor is irrelevant to this argument, as armor does not provide DR. In fact, armor is already useless against grappling because the only attack rolls involved in grappling target touch AC which armor does not apply to.

The argument is quite relative because DR is suppose to signify some sort of armor... some resistance to weapon damage (like what armor does to weapons in real life). There are a ton of things that do not make sense in 3.5, this is one of them. Have AC, or have DR, not both. It fuddles up the game and makes it confusing. Tell me how resistance to piercing/blud/slashing dmg keeps me from choking you to death? Grappling is none of those damage types. If you know anything about grappling that is... :P

[Epsilon Rose]

The argument is quite relative because DR is suppose to signify some sort of armor... some resistance to weapon damage (like what armor does to weapons in real life). There are a ton of things that do not make sense in 3.5, this is one of them. Have AC, or have DR, not both. It fuddles up the game and makes it confusing. Tell me how resistance to piercing/blud/slashing dmg keeps me from choking you to death? Grappling is none of those damage types. If you know anything about grappling that is... :P

You do realize that your argument makes all constructs, undead, oozes or anything else with sufficiently alien anatomy or some basic immunities completely immune to grapple damage?

[Mechanize]

You do realize that your argument makes all constructs, undead, oozes or anything else with sufficiently alien anatomy or some basic immunities completely immune to grapple damage?

Not necessarily. Some of those things are reliant on physical properties like bones or solid limbs to move. Grappling isn't limited to choking. It is great at breaking bones and snapping tendons and ligaments. Something that armor, or outer skin resistance will not stop at all.

I would never say that anyone could grapple an ooze, don't give a crap what the book says.

My point is that 3.5 doesn't always follow common sense. MANY times a DM ruling should take precedence. I'm not knocking 3.5... they made an extremely complex game. The more complex it is, the more places there are to find holes. I'm knocking the fact that some of you bow down to the rules as if they are the word of god.

Now how about we get back to my question at hand? I'm not asking if my proposal is legal. I'm asking what you guys think about allowing grapple damage to bypass DR.

[Epsilon Rose]

Not necessarily. Some of those things are reliant on physical properties like bones or solid limbs to move. Grappling isn't limited to choking. It is great at breaking bones and snapping tendons and ligaments. Something that armor, or outer skin resistance will not stop at all.
And what about a golem made of solid, animate, crystal? Or creatures whose tendon and bone equivalents are much tougher than normal creatures?


Now how about we get back to my question at hand? I'm not asking if my proposal is legal. I'm asking what you guys think about allowing grapple damage to bypass DR.

It's a bad idea. Grapple damage does the same type of damage as an unarmed attack, there's no reason it should be able to bypass anything that it normally couldn't.

[Mechanize]

And what about a golem made of solid, animate, crystal? Or creatures whose tendon and bone equivalents are much tougher than normal creatures?



It's a bad idea. Grapple damage does the same type of damage as an unarmed attack, there's no reason it should be able to bypass anything that it normally couldn't.

Give grappling its own damage type and said golem or oozes can resist it? Boy you are bad at thinking outside of the box... :P

[fishyfishyfishy]

Give grappling its own damage type and said golem or oozes can resist it? Boy you are bad at thinking outside of the box... :P

I disagree, you seem to be the one having difficulty thinking outside the box here. Your example of choking a person could easily be interpreted as bludgeoning damage to the throat. You're also making the assumption that Damage Reduction is solely because of "tough skin" or some other physical ability. The player in question has fey heritage. His damage reduction comes from an innate magical resistance to harm, and is only bypassed with the anathema to his heritage: Cold Iron.

Since you are relatively new to D&D, I suggest you take it easy on the house rules until you have a better grasp of the mechanics. And when you do introduce new house rules, be sure to run them by your players first and get their input. No one likes the DM who, from the players perspective, just announces new rules and changes things seemingly arbitrarily.

Once you learn the mechanics of the game better, you will realize that the player in question really isn't all that powerful. He has used nearly all of his feats to help him resist physical damage on a limited spell casting class. You can easily bypass this with simple damage dealing spells like Magic Missile, Melf's Acid Arrow and Fireball. Let him have his fun when the NPC warriors run up to him with their non magical weapons and swing hard at his neck, only to have them watch in horror as it instantly heals.

The ghost cohort though...yea that's another story. Enforce the level check any time it is destroyed. And if you want to destroy it easily, have a higher level good Cleric turn it and get a high enough turning check to destroy it outright. As someone said before, it only has a max of 3HD.

[Mechanize]

Your example of choking a person could easily be interpreted as bludgeoning damage to the throat.

Basic physics disagrees with you.


And when you do introduce new house rules, be sure to run them by your players first and get their input.

I introduce my ideas and get varying responses. Power gamers never like rules changes, non power gamers do.


Once you learn the mechanics of the game better, you will realize that the player in question really isn't all that powerful. .

I well understand that he isn't that strong. It's just in my particular setting he is. I am running a very militaristic mass combat setting at the moment. By the book he is immune to an infinitely sized army while our fighter and monk still gets smacked around.

There is nothing wrong with a little adaptation to keep everyone on a fairly even playing field.

[Epsilon Rose]

I well understand that he isn't that strong. It's just in my particular setting he is. I am running a very militaristic mass combat setting at the moment. By the book he is immune to an infinitely sized army while our fighter and monk still gets smacked around.

There is nothing wrong with a little adaptation to keep everyone on a fairly even playing field.

How does this prevent him from simply floating 5 feat above the battlefield, completely upgradeable?

Really, you shouldn't be trying to force PCs into your predetermined encounters. If their abilities inherently solve them, you shouldn't auto-gimp them just so you can run things like you were going to anyways. It removes player agency and reeks of railroading. Instead, you should try and come up with encounters that are relevant for the PCs. Even in a military campaign, there are a lot more important things for them to do then fight hoards of mooks.

On a similar note, Monk and Fighter are two of the weakest classes in the game, you probably shouldn't be using them as benchmarks for power levels.

[Mechanize]

On a similar note, Monk and Fighter are two of the weakest classes in the game, you probably shouldn't be using them as benchmarks for power levels.

So it is ok for players who power game to set the benchmark for my campaign, but these weaker players can't set the benchmark for balancing the party? :smallamused: Interesting logic.