Spellthief

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm just curious as to the general opinion on the Spellthief class?

He looks interesting, but it seems like he can't do much if you're not fighting spellcasters.

[Rebel7284]

General consensus seems to be that it gets too little, too late.

- When not fighting spellcasters, it's a weaker version of rogue, already a weak class! A few spells way too late don't help enough.

- Not enough tools to actually fight spellcasters.

It's a nice one level dip when going Unseen Seer though. :)

[Fax Celestis]

It's got some tricks up its sleeve, especially if you delve into its expanded spell list and/or take the Trickster variant from Dragon (trades all sneak attack beyond the first die for bard spellcasting slots instead of ranger spellcasting slots).

You have to keep in mind that spellthieves look like rogues and can pretend to be rogues, but they're not rogues. Rogues dish out buckets of damage if given an opportunity: a spellthief can't really do that. Instead, spellthieves are primarily debuffers. Steal Spell Effect, for example, when used against a clericzilla, acts as a self-buff and an enemy debuff: steal his persistent righteous might and turn the tables.

[Fouredged Sword]

You mean it's NOT a one level PRC class that goes

Wizard 5 / spellthief 1 / Unseen Seer 10?

I mean, it sucks that one of the class features is that you loose your 6th level feat, but the casting in light armor seems to make up for that.

[Rebel7284]

You mean it's NOT a one level PRC class that goes

Wizard 5 / spellthief 1 / Unseen Seer 10?

I mean, it sucks that one of the class features is that you loose your 6th level feat, but the casting in light armor seems to make up for that.

You're doing it wrong.

You take spellthief at first level for more skill points and hitpoints and make better use of the able learner feat. :)

Also, Master Spellthief feat greatly contributes to the class being 1-level long.

[Vaz]

Godsblood Spelltheft and Master Spelltheif go wonders.

Stealing a spell then using that to cast Miracle? Hell yeah.

[Diarmuid]

Godsblood Spelltheft and Master Spelltheif go wonders.

Stealing a spell then using that to cast Miracle? Hell yeah.

That would only ever work if you actually had at least 9 levels of Spellthief, otherwise you wouldn't be able to hold enough spell levels to fuel the Miracle.

[Fax Celestis]

That would only ever work if you actually had at least 9 levels of Spellthief, otherwise you wouldn't be able to hold enough spell levels to fuel the Miracle.

...ooooooor Master Spellthief.

[Diarmuid]

...ooooooor Master Spellthief.

Master spellthief increases the level
Of spell you can steal, but does nothing to your ability to store.

This is a common change many DM's implement, but is not RAW.

[Vaz]

Master spellthief increases the level
Of spell you can steal, but does nothing to your ability to store.

This is a common change many DM's implement, but is not RAW.

AFB, so can you exand on this?

As far as I can see (on train at the mo, using a tablet, so it is quite hard), you can steal a spell up to 9th level, and the 'storing' ability you reference is contained within the Steal PSPell wording.

[Khatoblepas]

AFB, so can you exand on this?



Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal.


As a spellthief gains levels, he can choose to steal higher-level spells. At 4th level, he can steal spells of up to 2nd level, and for every two levels gained after 4th, the maximum spell level stolen increases by one (up to a maximum of 9th-level spells at 18th level). [This is the thing Master Spellthief references]

At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (treat 0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose). For instance, a 4th-level spellthief can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or one 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or any other combination of 0-level, 1st-level, and 2nd-level spells totaling four levels. If he steals a spell that would cause him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than his maximum. [This is the part that needs to be referenced in order for Master Spellthief to stack slots]

I think interpreting Master Spellthief as also improving your spell capacity is a bit of a stretch. If it said:

Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal and the amount of spell levels you can retain.

It would be a bit more clear cut, but as is, it just seems to increase the level. That said, it is possible to get 9 spell level capacity and 9th level spells.

Bard 1/Spellthief 9/Sublime Chord 1/Unseen Seer 9
(It's been a while since I thought about it, I'm sure this isn't the entire build and it requires a feat or two to make it happen.)

[Diarmuid]

Thanks Khato, saved me some searching/copying/pasting.

The level of spell you can steal and the amount of spell energy you can store are 2 entirely separate entities.

The Master Spellthief feat explicitly makes sure to spell out which functions its stacking applies to.

As I've said, many DM's decide to houserule that it applies to both and I can certainly see some logic there, but I prefer not to as I think it makes the feat too good considering what it already does and how it's obscure wording can already be used for some severely broken CL shenanigans.

[Vaz]

I see where you are coming from, actually. It is DM's interpretation.

This quote from Master Spellthief suggests otherwise.

"For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief"

Steal spell isnthe class ability. Replace it with 1st Spellthief/19th Wiz and 20th spellthief.

Stealing spells as a 20th level spellthief means you can Steal up to 9th level spells and store 10 levels of spells.

RAW goes either way.

[Diarmuid]

No, I dont think you've got the right of it at all.

That 4/4/ ST/Wiz certainly can "steal" up to 4th level spells as if he were are an 8th level ST.

However...he can only "store" 4 spell levels before he is full.

A 4/10 ST/Wiz could "steal" up to a 7th level spell from a target but could never actually "store" that spell to be used later as it would go over his limit of 4 spell levels.

Stealing and Storing spells have completely different mechanics for determing what you can do and the Master Spellthief feat only deals with a single one of them.

Many of the other ST special abilities dont work that great either with you are multiclassing. Stealing spell effects or stealing SLA's from targets is also based on your ST level and the CL of the effect you're stealing. If you're ST level falls significantly behind the avg CL of the enemies you're facing then those abilities become mostly useless as well.

[Vaz]

That is your interpretation of it: a valid reading, but one as equally valid as mine.

[pilvento]

Its an excelent adventurer class, detect magic at will and being able to remove buffs from other spellcasters makes it way more better than rogue, trapfinding is over rated...

[Diarmuid]

I'm not talking RAI, I'm talking RAW.

Interpret it all you want, Master Spellthief says it effects the determination of the max level of spells you can steal.

"Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes...for the purposes of determining what level of spell you can steal."

The example even goes on to list exactly how that benefit works and only mentions stealing spells "up to 4th level as if he were an 8th level spellthief"

Nowhere is anything mentioned about an enhanced ability to store spell levels and the mechanic for determining that specifically calls out the Spellthief level and is a different formula than determining the level of spell that can be stolen.

Adding anything other than that is interpretation, which you're more than welcome to do.

[Fax Celestis]

I don't know, the example in the feat uses a spellthief 4/wizard 4, and says he can steal spells of up to 4th level like an 8th level spellthief. If the feat didn't advance storage, the example would be incorrect.

[Stegyre]

I don't know, the example in the feat uses a spellthief 4/wizard 4, and says he can steal spells of up to 4th level like an 8th level spellthief. If the feat didn't advance storage, the example would be incorrect.
No: he is storing a spell up to his Spell Thief class level: 4. I'm not seeing any error in the example. :smallconfused:

[Fax Celestis]

Then tell me what "like an 8th level spellthief" is there for?

[Stegyre]

Because "8th level Spellthief" is where that class gains the ability "Steal spell (4th)"? I think that's the most obvious reason. :smallconfused:

[Diarmuid]

If there were a table and it had a listing of both the "Max Stolen Level" and "Max Stored Levels" and it was labeled "Steal Spell effects", then the wording on Master Spellthief would probably be fine for boosting both.

But the wording specifically states it only applies for determining what level spell can be stolen. As the class is written, what level you can steal and what level spell you can store are two entirely separate things.

[Vaz]

I tried to prevent this by saying "it is DM interpretation" (which it is). It is just you walling down and sayong know I'm right I understand it as this". The rest of this thread will be you stating that over and over again.

Agree to disagree, feel free. Alternatively you can carry on an get the last word in stating again and again what ypu'vre already said.

Whatever, your call. I know how I understand the reading and would rule it.

[Stegyre]

Vaz, you (and any player/GM) are free to play it however you wish. No one credibly questions that. On the RAW, however, I just don't see how it's even a close question. Diarmuid's analysis is pretty spot-on: there are two distinct aspects -- stealing and storage -- and the text of the feat only advances one. It is silent as to the other. And usually, all we may read from that silence is -- silence.

Could Master Spellthief advance storage? Sure. It hardly seems game-breaking. But by RAW, I do not see how it does. Nor do I follow Fax's assertion that the example in the book is borked (although heaven knows many of the examples are).

[Chronos]

I agree that the spellthief dip and feat doesn't let you store as much as you can steal. However, if you're fighting a spellcaster, denying them the use of their high-level spell slots is still probably a worthwhile thing to do, even if you don't get to use them yourself either.

If you take enough levels to get Steal Spell-Like Ability (4th, IIRC), there are also some neat tricks you can pull with that. For instance, if there's also a factotum in the party, you can use his Arcane Dilettante spells as often as you'd like, with no daily limit.

[mabriss lethe]

While definitely not top-tier material, I think Spellthieves get more grief for being underpowered than they deserve. Of course, I love fine tuning classes on the lower half of the Tier scale, so I may be biased.

They're still not great, by any means. They are sort of Rogue-lite, but a lot of their shortcomings can be worked around.

Thinking of them as a sort of starter kit version of a gish-in-a-box helps.

-Minimal sneak attack: Can be boosted to the level of an unoptimized rogue with Assassin's stance, a Rogue's vest, and an Assassination weapon. Of course, a rogue can use the same tricks to boost their SA even higher.

-Innate casting: Their ability to cast spells on their own is often overlooked. They get a few gems (cough, cough whirling blade) and can squeeze extra spells per day out if they burn off a less useful stolen spell.

-Skills: They get a decent skill list and enough points/level to make it work.

-Assorted treats: The biggest drawback: Their signature abilities are situationally useful. There's not a lot that can be done about that, other than the DM throwing you some casters to eat from time to time. However, some of their abilities are downright fun when they work, and some can be mildly optimized for. (Absorb spell)

Over the course of a campaign, I've found them to be about on par with a rogue, sometimes a little ahead when there's magic in the air, and a little behind when there isn't.

[Feint's End]

I tried to prevent this by saying "it is DM interpretation" (which it is). It is just you walling down and sayong know I'm right I understand it as this". The rest of this thread will be you stating that over and over again.

Agree to disagree, feel free. Alternatively you can carry on an get the last word in stating again and again what ypu'vre already said.

Whatever, your call. I know how I understand the reading and would rule it.

As others have said. It is a very reasonable houserule to allow this but it is not RAW. Nowhere in the feat it is mentioned that it increases the amount of spelllevel you can store. The feat just allows you to steal higher level spells and stacking casterlevels ... and that's it.

[Feilith]

Personally, I love the spellthief class, but they are subject to situationality. They won't always be the most useful at the party's current goal, but they can make good on locking down enemy casters.

Especially pure wizard BBEGs, steal spell effect is a gigantic you lose button, because without all his buffs a wizard (even at lv 20 commanding gods and the like) becomes a guy wrapped in some magic clothes, who is subject to getting mauled by a fighter.

I just enjoy the gish feel and it lets alot of creativity, even if it's MAD.

[Fax Celestis]

Potentially relevant, by the way: depending upon your DM's interpretation of "ability to cast [divine/arcane/any] spells of X level", the spellthief is in the unique position of being able to qualify for basically any spellcasting, invoking, or (with the Psithief feat) manifesting PrC without multiclassing, including theurge classes. A third-level spellthief can, after all, cast second level divine and arcane spells, and therefore could walk right into Mystic Theurge. Something like Wizard 1/Spellthief 3/Mystic Theurge 10 is mechanically sound, even if you're basically wasting half the reason to take Mystic Theurge.

However, Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Spellthief 3 gets into Mystic Theurge a level earlier than Wizard 3/Cleric 3, gets some other abilities that regular MT doesn't get, and can then take Master Spellthief to stack up his steal level, cast arcane (and divine, though you can do that anyway) spells in light armor, and only lose one CL on the wizard side. Still lose four on the cleric side, but that's what Practiced Spellcaster is for, and even then it's still a better entry than the traditional entry.

[Kuulvheysoon]

However, Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Spellthief 3 gets into Mystic Theurge a level earlier than Wizard 3/Cleric 3, gets some other abilities that regular MT doesn't get, and can then take Master Spellthief to stack up his steal level, cast arcane (and divine, though you can do that anyway) spells in light armor, and only lose one CL on the wizard side. Still lose four on the cleric side, but that's what Practiced Spellcaster is for, and even then it's still a better entry than the traditional entry.
Actually, IIRC, the 'standard' entry (around here, at least) is Wizard 1/Cleric 3/either 1, or something along those lines, with Precocious Apprentice filling in for the 2nd level arcane spell.

The only problem with that build, Fax, is the lack of 9th level spells. Now, to me, this isn't a big deal. I hardly ever play that high, and I'd be willing to bet that at least half of the Playground doesn't either. Other than that, though, looks pretty solid - and it's definitely given me something to think about (and for my players to fear).

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, IIRC, the 'standard' entry (around here, at least) is Wizard 1/Cleric 3/either 1, or something along those lines, with Precocious Apprentice filling in for the 2nd level arcane spell.

The only problem with that build, Fax, is the lack of 9th level spells. Now, to me, this isn't a big deal. I hardly ever play that high, and I'd be willing to bet that at least half of the Playground doesn't either. Other than that, though, looks pretty solid - and it's definitely given me something to think about (and for my players to fear).

Oh, I know all about early entry stuff. This is just another, possibly less questionable (and at the very least different) entry. I would definitely look into using Spellthief + Master Spellthief + Warlock dip along with some of the theurges in CMage.

[Chronos]

Looking over the thread again, I don't think anyone's mentioned: You don't need to be fighting spellcasters to steal spells. You can also steal spells from your allies, before combat starts. This won't get you any more spells in total, but it will let you fire them off faster, since you're spending two characters' actions in combat instead of just one. It's also a way of getting useful personal-only spells onto the sneaky guy instead of on the primary spellcaster: Let the guy casing the enemy encampment have the Arcane Sight instead of the wizard, and the Camouflage instead of the druid.

[Person_Man]

Shameless plug of my homebrew Spellthief fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16213338). (It's written for Pathfinder, but can be used in 3.5 just by changing the Skills).


Looking over the thread again, I don't think anyone's mentioned: You don't need to be fighting spellcasters to steal spells. You can also steal spells from your allies, before combat starts. This won't get you any more spells in total, but it will let you fire them off faster, since you're spending two characters' actions in combat instead of just one. It's also a way of getting useful personal-only spells onto the sneaky guy instead of on the primary spellcaster: Let the guy casing the enemy encampment have the Arcane Sight instead of the wizard, and the Camouflage instead of the druid.

I think this bears repeating. A spellthief can be very very useful in a mid-high level party of spellcasters, because they tend to have more then enough spells per day. The spelltheif can steal whatever he needs, buff himself, let his Improved Familiar hold the charge of a touch attack spell, and is ready for combat just as powerful as his friends.

In addition, once a Spellthief hits 5th level and gains the ability to steal spell-like abilities, they become very useful if they're in a party with a Dragonfire Adept and/or Warlock. The Spellthief can borrow their abilities, and when he's done using them, the DFA or Warlock hasn't lost anything.

In essence, the spellthief has the advantage of being able to use spells and spell-like abilities from every class in the game, as long as someone playing that class is in his party or is an enemy for that combat.

So even though it's mechanically a mess, and it really doesn't "kick in" until mid levels. But it has the benefit of being one of the most balanced classes in the game. If everyone in your party is Tier 4, you're Tier 4. But if everyone in your party is Tier 1, you're Tier 1, as long as they're willing to share.

[Chronos]

In addition, once a Spellthief hits 5th level and gains the ability to steal spell-like abilities, they become very useful if they're in a party with a Dragonfire Adept and/or Warlock. The Spellthief can borrow their abilities, and when he's done using them, the DFA or Warlock hasn't lost anything.It's even better with a factotum, as I mentioned earlier. Factotum SLAs are exactly equivalent to wizard spells, and you can get nearly any wizard spell you want from them. They're balanced around having a very limited number of daily uses, but the spellthief's way of borrowing them knocks that limitation out completely. A spellthief and a warlock is roughly equivalent to two warlocks, but a spellthief and a factotum is much more than two factota.

[Diarmuid]

In addition, once a Spellthief hits 5th level and gains the ability to steal spell-like abilities, they become very useful if they're in a party with a Dragonfire Adept and/or Warlock. The Spellthief can borrow their abilities, and when he's done using them, the DFA or Warlock hasn't lost anything.

In essence, the spellthief has the advantage of being able to use spells and spell-like abilities from every class in the game, as long as someone playing that class is in his party or is an enemy for that combat.

So even though it's mechanically a mess, and it really doesn't "kick in" until mid levels. But it has the benefit of being one of the most balanced classes in the game. If everyone in your party is Tier 4, you're Tier 4. But if everyone in your party is Tier 1, you're Tier 1, as long as they're willing to share.

Of note, while Steal SLA is very neat, it is also fairly limited by the ST's actual class level and is not impacted in any way by Master Spellthief. The level of the SLA is at maximum 1/3 the ST level which means at 5th level you can take a 1st level equivalent SLA only.

[Person_Man]

Of note, while Steal SLA is very neat, it is also fairly limited by the ST's actual class level and is not impacted in any way by Master Spellthief. The level of the SLA is at maximum 1/3 the ST level which means at 5th level you can take a 1st level equivalent SLA only.

That's correct. If you want Steal Spell-Like Ability to be useful, you more or less have to go strait Spellthief. And based on my play tests, Steal Spell isn't useful against enemies until you get to level 13 and get Discover Spells.

So unless you're using a homebrew fix, it generally makes sense to only take 1 or 2 levels of Spellthief with the Master Spellthief Feat, or go all the way and take all 20 levels. It really does not lend itself well to other combinations I can think of. (Though perhaps there's an obscure Spellthief PrC or combo I'm missing?)

[Fouredged Sword]

I have seen it used to good effect in a chameleon build. The application was

Spellthief 5 / Chameleon 10, though I suppose that spellthief 2 / Duskblade 3 would have been better, thus reinforcing your point.

[Chronos]

Oh, it's also useful for sneak attack stacking, if that's your thing. Basically, dip one level each in every class that gives Sneak Attack or a similar ability, to end up getting one die per level instead of one per two levels. Though this is only really recommended if you're using fractional BAB, or have some other way of getting it back up.