How good is this class

[DwarfInTheFlask]

How good is this class, what tier is it closest too.
Shaman from Kobold Press (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/shaman)

[Big Fau]

Tier 2 at minimum. It's a spontaneous Druid, Wildshape and all.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Does everyone think that?

[Spore]

Tier 2 at minimum. It's a spontaneous Druid, Wildshape and all.

I agree. Sorcerer, Oracles, and Shamans.

This class is quite well balanced and flavorful. Maybe I will translate it for our own parties.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I thought so too, but it does have free healing touch I thought maybe that was unbalanced. EDIT: Granted this is only up to your Charisma Mod a day.

[Radar]

I thought so too, but it does have free healing touch I thought maybe that was unbalanced. EDIT: Granted this is only up to your Charisma Mod a day.
Which means, it's not free. Healing is not a concern when it comes to balance anyway.

[Spore]

I would agree IF he had this like bloodline spells like a sorcerer (extra spells free of charge) or would get summon nature's ally for each spell level.

That aside he gets wild shape, which is better than locked spells.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Free meaning not requiring a spell slot to cast.

Also it levels up as you do at lvl 12 you can cast Cure Critical Wounds with a touch as many times as you have a charisma mod (Charisma is your main stat)

But I agree its pretty well balanced and I like the fluff.

[Big Fau]

Free meaning not requiring a spell slot to cast.

Also it levels up as you do at lvl 12 you can cast Cure Critical Wounds with a touch as many times as you have a charisma mod (Charisma is your main stat)

Still not that big of a deal. It still takes the normal actions, is still touch-range, and is still only 4d8+X (averaging at 18+CL per use, which is pitiful) at most.

People get so freaked out over at-will healing...

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I just didn't know if that would throw it off any.

Over all I really like this class considering its 3rd party

[Person_Man]

Can someone summarize the class abilities? I'm blocked at work.

Also, you can usually (though not always) judge the Tier of the class just by looking at it's primary class ability mechanic (spells, powers, maneuvers, vestiges, soulmelds, etc).

Tier 1: Easy access to 1st through 9th level spells and/or powers from a broad list.

Tier 2: Delayed or somehow mechanically constrained access to 1st through 9th level spells or powers from a broad list.

Tier 3: A limited but still useful list of useful abilities that you can choose from and change at least once per day.

Tier 4: Class abilities that you cannot change at least once per day.

Tier 5: Classes that are so poorly written that they do not function as intended.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

In short Wildshape
Healing Touch
1-9 Druid Spells (Learned Spells like a Sorcerer) Spontaneous Caster
Animal Spirit Companion
Wild Empathy
EDIT:
Ethereal Jaunt (Spirit Step a number of rounds equal to his level)
Woodland Step (Travels through natural thorns and stuff without effect)
Astral Projection once per day
Legend Lore with a casting time of 24 hours, regardless of how much information is already known about the subject in question. He uses his shaman level as the caster level for both of these spell-like effects.

[Coidzor]

It seems to have contradictory progression of its Animal Companion equivalent, the Animal Spirit Guide, which seems to have Magical Beast as its Type without being an Augmented Animal, and thus should have BAB = HD, but its progression leaves it with 3/4 BAB instead.

Other than that, it seems like a Tier 2 Druid with worse casting because it's a spontaneous caster, but marginally better class features.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Where does it say they are Magical beast?

I don't know much about the gaming world, so I didn't notice that at all. But yeah its got a Sorcerer's spell known and casting progression.

[Spore]

Where does it say they are Magical beast?



Check their INT. Anything above 2 Int is considered magical beast.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Oh I thought you meant they listed a type or something. I didn't know about the INT thing.

[Coidzor]

Where does it say they are Magical beast?

I don't know much about the gaming world, so I didn't notice that at all. But yeah its got a Sorcerer's spell known and casting progression.

It's rather weird, really. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/shaman/animal-spirit-guides)

Their type isn't specified, per se, but they do count as Magical Beasts for all effects, and the intelligence scores of the selections are all greater than 2. So they run into the problem where they can't have the Animal Type (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Animal) as may or may not have been intended. I don't know if Pathfinder has any rules for automatically converting Animals with Int 3 or greater into Magical Beasts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Magical-Beast), though someone with more familiarity with the byzantine labyrinth of unofficial errata and FAQs they employ might be able to find a relevant Word of God forum post or the like.


Oh I thought you meant they listed a type or something. I didn't know about the INT thing.

It's a little bit obscure and doesn't come up all that often, as it's largely only of interest as a rules dysfunction in D&D 3.5(& possibly PF?) for if you increase the intelligence score of an animal companion, such as with a magic item, an ability score increase from gaining a HD divisible by 4, or a spell.

[Person_Man]

In short Wildshape
Healing Touch
1-9 Druid Spells (Learned Spells like a Sorcerer) Spontaneous Caster
Animal Spirit Companion
Wild Empathy
EDIT:
Ethereal Jaunt (Spirit Step a number of rounds equal to his level)
Woodland Step (Travels through natural thorns and stuff without effect)
Astral Projection once per day
Legend Lore with a casting time of 24 hours, regardless of how much information is already known about the subject in question. He uses his shaman level as the caster level for both of these spell-like effects.

If it's a Pathfinder only game, I'd say it's Tier 2. If you can also use 3.5 crunch, then it'd probably be Tier 1, even with nerfed PF Wildshape.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

What type of 3.5 Stuff?

Also I have another thread for information on Druid (Or shaman) equipment questions.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311699)

[Coidzor]

If it's a Pathfinder only game, I'd say it's Tier 2. If you can also use 3.5 crunch, then it'd probably be Tier 1, even with nerfed PF Wildshape.

How so? Shouldn't spontaneous casting off the druid list with limited spells known keep it from breaking into T1? :smallconfused:

Does wildshape really plug up the gap that well?

[Zombulian]

Still not that big of a deal. It still takes the normal actions, is still touch-range, and is still only 4d8+X (averaging at 18+CL per use, which is pitiful) at most.

People get so freaked out over at-will healing...

Pretty sure that a Dread Necromancer with Tomb Tainted Soul or the Necropolitan template is baaaaaaaasically Tier 0.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I think it might be due to Wildshaping into something that grants wish and use that to replicate spells?

[Zombulian]

I think it might be due to Wildshaping into something that grants wish and use that to replicate spells?

Wildshape doesn't work that way... unless PF changed that. But I doubt that counts as a nerf.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I might be thinking of Polymorph I know I saw something like that mentioned somewhere. They might have said Polymorph and I got confused.

[Zombulian]

I might be thinking of Polymorph I know I saw something like that mentioned somewhere. They might have said Polymorph and I got confused.

Wildshape works as Polymorph but with a few exceptions. You're thinking of Shapechange.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Oh maybe that was it (Is a noob)

[Karnith]

I might be thinking of Polymorph I know I saw something like that mentioned somewhere. They might have said Polymorph and I got confused.
It could be that (and it would in all likelihood be with Shapechange, not Polymorph), but you may also have been thinking of the Planar Shepherd's Wild Shape abilities, which lets you take the forms of certain outsiders and elementals, and grants you the extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities of the assumed form.

EDIT: Partially swordsage'd

[Zombulian]

It could be that (and it would in all likelihood be with Shapechange, not Polymorph), but you may also have been thinking of the Planar Shepherd's Wild Shape abilities, which lets you take the forms of certain outsiders and elementals, and grants you the extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities of the assumed form.

*cringes* so... borked

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I do believe that is what I was reading. again I am new and I was browsing both this site and other D&D/PF boards and saw Shapechange and Wildshape and so forth.

How exactly has it been nerfed?

[Coidzor]

I do believe that is what I was reading. again I am new and I was browsing both this site and other D&D/PF boards and saw Shapechange and Wildshape and so forth.

How exactly has it been nerfed?

Saph has a 3.5 > PF Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136890) which has this to say.


Druid

Buffs

Wild shape can now be accessed quicker, and you get the good forms faster; wild shape at level 4 and elemental form at level 6.
Druids can now choose to get a cleric domain instead of an animal companion. Technically a buff, I guess, but I can't imagine that many druids will take it.
Animal companions now have their own class table, and a lot more detail about what they get at each level. Not sure if it's a buff or a nerf, but it's nice to see them getting treated more thoroughly.

Nerfs

Shapeshifting in all forms, including wild shape, has been beaten thoroughly with the nerf stick. The new form's physical stats no longer override your own - beast shape II, for instance, only gives you +4 Strength, -2 Dex, +4 Natural Armour. Druids who want to fight in melee will now have significant MAD issues, just like the monk.

Verdict?

Out of all the eleven classes, druids are the only one that unquestionably got nerfed. The polymorph change means that druids can no longer dump Strength and Dexterity without crippling their combat ability.

One nerf doesn't mean the class is weak, though. Druids were arguably the strongest class in core 3.5 due to having three powerful features: animal companion, wild shape, and full casting. Druid wild shape is now half as good as it used to be, but their animal companion and full casting are just as powerful as ever. So they're now two-and-a-half classes instead of three. That's still good, even if they're no longer top of the heap.

And that's the short version of how it got nerfed. It refers to the beast shape line of spells which give a minor buff instead of allowing the Druid to not have to worry about Strength or Dexterity at all.

This is a more recent composition on the subject. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284344)

[bekeleven]

Pretty sure that a Dread Necromancer with Tomb Tainted Soul or the Necropolitan template is baaaaaaaasically Tier 0.

...And so is Binder because they can heal at will?

How do you consider at-will healing more powerful than 9s? Or, really, 5ths?

[Aegis013]

...And so is Binder because they can heal at will?

How do you consider at-will healing more powerful than 9s? Or, really, 5ths?

Despite the absence of blue coloring, I'm guessing Zombulian was being facetious.

[Zombulian]

Despite the absence of blue coloring, I'm guessing Zombulian was being facetious.

I assumed it was obvious. My mistake.

[Person_Man]

How so? Shouldn't spontaneous casting off the druid list with limited spells known keep it from breaking into T1? :smallconfused:

Off the top of my head: Planar Shepherd, Master of Many Forms, any prestige class that adds domains, Frozen Wild Shape Feat, Aberration Wildshape Feat, Vermin Shape Feat, Dragon Wild Shape Feat, Exalted Companion Feat, Companion Spellbound Feat, Share Soulmelds Feat, Best Shape Feat, all the Feats which add multiple spells to your spell list which you would then be able to cast spontaneously, all the splat books which add literally hundreds (thousands?) of spells to your default spell list, all the crazy Metamagic Feats (Born of Three Thunders, Lord of the Uttercold), etc.

Even with the massive Wild Shape nerf from Pathfinder, if nothing else you can use 3.5 material to dramatically improve your spell list and Animal Companion. Tiers are about options, and the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is about how quickly you get those options and how flexibly you can use them. Adding all of the 3.5 Druid options to a Tier 2 PF chassis adds tons and tons of options, and can dramatically increase how quickly you get many of those options.