Druid Questions

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Ok following Pathfinder Druid and Shaman Classes

What Wild Shapes are good at lvl 4 and 5

And how do you find non metal armor?

How does Darkwood work on armor?

If you made a Darkwood Wooden Armor what would be the stats on it?

What is the best armors to get I know Wild is a good enhancement (The one guide on the SRD is not much help on equipment.)

[Runeclaw]

How are you getting Wild Shape at lvl 1 and 2?

You find non-metal armor at the armor store. Leather, Padded, Rosewood, Hide, Leaf, Wooden, Stoneplate armor are all non-metal. Some DMs may allow studded leather.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Blah I just reread my post and realized most of this comes off as very stupid.
I meant 4th and 5th I guess I wrote 1rst and 2nd out habit.

I know there are some in the Armor and Shields page of the PFSRD. But I mean for after creation Hide Shirt would likely be the best you could start with. Hide Armor (Medium Armor) is the best I can get at medium levels after this point (Creation)

How do I get better armor from there? After I start with my Hide Armor or something how do I find better Armor, what things do I need to add other then Mwk?

How does Darkwood work? How much does Ironwood cost to get permanently placed on an armor?

[aeauseth]

How does Darkwood work? How much does Ironwood cost to get permanently placed on an armor?

Darkwood (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#_darkwood) is a material. It can be used in place of normal wood. You can have a shield crafted using Darkwood. Darkwood is lighter than normal wood and is somewhat rare. It's basically a normal wooden shield, just weighs less.

Ironwood (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/ironwood.html#_ironwood) is a spell that lasts for days. There is no obvious way to make Ironwood permanent. You could inquire about the use of Permanency (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/permanency.html#_permanency), or even a custom magic item. However, at 1 day/level you could just cast it every few days. You can't use Ironwoon on metal or hide, only wood.

For higher AC armors you might consider Dragonhide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm).

You might also consider dropping armor all together and WildShape into something with a high natural armor.


BTW: 3.5 and Pathfinder are basically the same with regards to this topic.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

So is there just less armor options for Druids and Shamans?
Any rulings on magical animal hides being turned to armor or something?

[aeauseth]

So is there just less armor options for Druids and Shamans?
Any rulings on magical animal hides being turned to armor or something?

Yes, Dragonhide. See my edited prior post. Your too quick for me :smallredface:

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I likely will, I am assuming a Monk Belt would be a good idea as well?

In PF it has Dragonhide as well.

But am I missing something? It makes it a Masterwork Version of an Armor (Lets say Hide) which gives it a +1 but costs twice as much? I know it gives it more hardness and more HP but how does this effect the wearer?

[holywhippet]

Isn't it a monk's robe in pathfinder? I think it would help - in 3.5 it wouldn't since worn items stop working when you wild shape. But pathfinder doesn't seem to have that restriction.

[Coidzor]

I likely will, I am assuming a Monk Belt would be a good idea as well?

In PF it has Dragonhide as well.

But am I missing something? It makes it a Masterwork Version of an Armor (Lets say Hide) which gives it a +1 but costs twice as much? I know it gives it more hardness and more HP but how does this effect the wearer?

IIRC, Monk's Belt is instead of armor. I can't find monk's belt as existing in PF, but the nearest equivalent, monk's robe (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-monk-s), is nerfed so non-monks can't get wisdom to AC.

The principle advantage of Dragonhide is letting you have full-plate as a druid. Also, it's cheaper to give it magical properties that protect the wearer from whatever type of energy damage the dragon favored.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Oh thats true.

So it doubles the cost of somethin to make it Dragonhide?

Do I have to kill a dragon first?

[KillianHawkeye]

Do I have to kill a dragon first?

It's either that or find someplace that sells dragonhide armor.

[holywhippet]

Oh thats true.

So it doubles the cost of somethin to make it Dragonhide?

Do I have to kill a dragon first?

Short answer: DM Fiat.

Long answer: No, unless you DM wants to make you do so. In theory with any crafted item you walk into a store that makes such things and order it to be made. If the DM wants dragonhide armor to be hard to come by then they can make you jump through hoops to acquire it. Otherwise you just pay the extra cost and wait for it to be made or get it immediately if they have an off the rack set that will fit you.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Well we will be doing Kingmaker, any idea if that campaign might have it in its style of play? Like are dragons everywhere in that world so other people can kill em?

[holywhippet]

Never played the module, but I assume that dragons exist in that setting. Commonplace is not a word I'd use for dragons in just about any setting (except maybe Dragonlance). A dragon is not something you should run into often and you should be glad if you don't run into them at all.

[Coidzor]

Well we will be doing Kingmaker, any idea if that campaign might have it in its style of play? Like are dragons everywhere in that world so other people can kill em?

I don't believe dragons large enough to make fullplate out of are common/something you want to go out of your way to fight in the level range of Kingmaker at which you'd want to acquire your dragonhide full-plate. Depending upon what you're using the animal companion for, you could just ride it and wear Stoneplate in order to get around the crippled 15' move speed.

[Ortesk]

Can you sneak in 2 3.5 feats? I know the DM you have is 3.5 friendly, and also the feats are considered horrible...except on a druid where there "Okay" it will solve your gear problems

[DwarfInTheFlask]

What feats?
If they are easy to research he should be ok with them.

[Ortesk]

What feats?
If they are easy to research he should be ok with them.

Sacred vow/Vow of Poverty


when you wildshape your items mold into you and stop working, these feats get rid of that thorny issue. All your bonuses work no matter what. Just have to be a nice guy, but you need something to stop you from nom nom everyones heads

[ryu]

Sacred vow/Vow of Poverty


when you wildshape your items mold into you and stop working, these feats get rid of that thorny issue. All your bonuses work no matter what. Just have to be a nice guy, but you need something to stop you from nom nom everyones heads

Are wilding clasps still a thing in PF? If so he should basically be coating his entire body in them and using gear in wildshape anyway.

[Ortesk]

Are wilding clasps still a thing in PF? If so he should basically be coating his entire body in them and using gear in wildshape anyway.

Wilding clasps work on like 3 slots i believe, cost a decent chunk for his module level, and is open to dm fiat. Vow of poverty shores up those issues, and saves you a few spells hich admittingly you can burn to gain the benefits of VOP but spells are precious to a druid, must buff more

[ryu]

Wilding clasps work on like 3 slots i believe, cost a decent chunk for his module level, and is open to dm fiat. Vow of poverty shores up those issues, and saves you a few spells hich admittingly you can burn to gain the benefits of VOP but spells are precious to a druid, must buff more

Item combining rules at increased cost still a thing too? If so I can get WAY more out of items than VoP even in these circumstances. Wilding clasps are just that hilarious.

[Ortesk]

Item combining rules at increased cost still a thing too? If so I can get WAY more out of items than VoP even in these circumstances. Wilding clasps are just that hilarious.

Well of course you can man, i did say VoP is only okay. Items curb stomp it (theres a graft and necklace i love which grat combined +8 ECL to wildshape HD) but i gave it as an option simply to be easier to deal with in terms of mechanics

[ryu]

Well of course you can man, i did say VoP is only okay. Items curb stomp it (theres a graft and necklace i love which grat combined +8 ECL to wildshape HD) but i gave it as an option simply to be easier to deal with in terms of mechanics

Eh fair enough I suppose. I just kinda cringe on principle at the very idea of VoP being presented as a good choice. It's a thing of principle based on the simple standard you know full well I enjoy with magic item shenanigans.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

*blinks*
Ok so.. Vow of Poverty and Sacred Vow are good for a Druid in short?

It allows them to use their items in Wildshape. This is good.

[Ortesk]

*blinks*
Ok so.. Vow of Poverty and Sacred Vow are good for a Druid in short?

It allows them to use their items in Wildshape. This is good.

Vow of poverty has no items, you get a bunch of bonuses which equal about 2/3 WBL but you as a druid can use them even when in WS. Now ryu is of course correct, items are much better. But there eat your gold up at low levels, and the module isnt high level play

[ryu]

Vow of poverty has no items, you get a bunch of bonuses which equal about 2/3 WBL but you as a druid can use them even when in WS. Now ryu is of course correct, items are much better. But there eat your gold up at low levels, and the module isnt high level play

Now VoP DOES hurt less at low level. Don't get me wrong. You could do very well at low level as a druid with VoP. You could do better with item optimization, but Ort is right that this is simpler and still likely to do what you want. My objection was really more a matter of taste unless you have any plans whatsoever of hitting mid to high level.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I think if we end up doing all six books we will end up somewhere in the area of 15th level maybe as high as 17th.

Does that help? But we are starting at level 1.

[Talya]

Now VoP DOES hurt less at low level. Don't get me wrong. You could do very well at low level as a druid with VoP. You could do better with item optimization, but Ort is right that this is simpler and still likely to do what you want. My objection was really more a matter of taste unless you have any plans whatsoever of hitting mid to high level.

Even at high levels, with high levels of optimization, VOP comes WAY ahead on actual WBL comparison.

It's still not ideal, because the bonuses are fixed and include things you probably wouldn't buy. The epic bracers of armor and epic +8 ability item (which are NOT equivalent to anything else) alone outdo WBL.

Some people like to call the +8 ability score a +6 with a +2 inherent bonus. however, nothing prevents a vop character from also getting a +5 inherent bonus in their primary ability score, and they should do so. The +8 enhancement bonus is what it is... a +8 enhancement bonus, and must be valued accordingly.


All other bonuses must also add 8000gp for the wilding clasp equivalent.

[Coidzor]

How does Darkwood work on armor?

If you made a Darkwood Wooden Armor what would be the stats on it?

Darkwood (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Darkwood)armor It'll weigh half as much(only of interest for encumbrance and the encumbrance of your mount) and the armor check penalty will be reduced by one due to it being a masterwork item. Darkwood Wooden Armor would cost 20 gp (base price) + 150 gp (masterwork price) + 250 gp (how much a regular suit of wooden armor weighs multiplied by 10 gp) = 420 gp for +3 AC. +3 Max Dex. 0 Armor Check Penalty. 15% Arcane Spell Failure Chance. 30 foot move speed for characters with a 30 foot base land speed. 12.5 pounds.

And that's IF Wooden armor is eligible, as the description for darkwood states that items partially made out of wood either can't be made out of darkwood or don't gain benefits from doing so, not that there's really any benefit to darkwood wooden armor aside from less weight.

Look at Darkleaf Cloth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Darkleaf-Cloth) instead. A Darkleaf Cloth Hide Shirt will run you 770 gp, give you +3 AC, have a max Dex of +6, 0 ACP, and it weighs 9 pounds. Though if Darkleaf Cloth counts as replacing the metal component of studded leather armor, then just using that would be good for +3 AC and +7 max Dex. If you can take advantage of that much max dex, anyway. 765 will get you a Darkleaf Cloth suit of Hide armor which gives +4 AC and the same max dex and armor check penalty in exchange for more weight and a slower move speed.

There's also eastern armors (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields), such as horn lamellar and the stone coat. I suppose Darkleaf Cloth leather lamellar armor would be +4 AC, +5 Max Dex, 0 ACP, 30 foot move speed intact armor. Horn Lamellar would give +5 AC, +3 Max Dex though, in exchange for a slower move speed.

Or even Bone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Bone)for a breastplate, studded leather, or scale mail that's druid-friendly without invokving dragonhide.

[ryu]

Even at high levels, with high levels of optimization, VOP comes WAY ahead on actual WBL comparison.

It's still not ideal, because the bonuses are fixed and include things you probably wouldn't buy. The epic bracers of armor and epic +8 ability item (which are NOT equivalent to anything else) alone outdo WBL.

Some people like to call the +8 ability score a +6 with a +2 inherent bonus. however, nothing prevents a vop character from also getting a +5 inherent bonus in their primary ability score, and they should do so. The +8 enhancement bonus is what it is... a +8 enhancement bonus, and must be valued accordingly.

The point to be made that you even agree with is that the items he could be getting are not simple numbers to be replicated in silly high stats. The best items involve giving the druid things he can't already do with ease.

OP: 15-17 topsies eh? Borderline enough that I wouldn't bother learning the optimization behind effective item management just for this. You'll be less powerful than you could be yes, but you're still a druid. If proper spell selection, a good chassis, and being the entire animal kingdom on a whim doesn't give you enough to contribute at that point you're playing in a very high OP group. I really rather doubt you're in that situation though.

[Coidzor]

Also, Pathfinder specific Druid Handbook courtesy of Treantmonk: Part 1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xrMC87TpmdfjB9xorkhY3_xWz3guOunTaotgWhoKYMA/edit), Part 2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WLR6brLr0EA3LbQ6UihsliPiyPYSlLjrNbUShPty4bo/edit), and Part 3 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TUvw-QOBsvCBeMcpUGDlo-0BKsFuEHynDQhgX8HmzKo/edit).

IIRC, it's a little bit out of date, but should be fairly solid. Parts 1 and 2 both discuss wild shape from different priorities, so check out both, IIRC, Part 3 just deals with the spell list.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

No we are a light to moderate group and most of that is just people learning tricks from their years of playing and working out item, feat, and spell combos that do them well (No idea I don't ask still new so it all comes off as a little gibberish to me lol)

hmm the Eastern Armors are likely out unless I can come up with a good RP reason for having them, though I could argue a refluff of a simple design,

I think my opening is max money 2d6x10 plus 100 GP so 220 GP to start my character with with so I think some light working could work till we get loot and I can run back and get better gear.

Should I invest skill points and feats into Armor creation? Like crafting my own hide armors or something? Would that save me trouble or cause me trouble in the long run?

[Ortesk]

No we are a light to moderate group and most of that is just people learning tricks from their years of playing and working out item, feat, and spell combos that do them well (No idea I don't ask still new so it all comes off as a little gibberish to me lol)

hmm the Eastern Armors are likely out unless I can come up with a good RP reason for having them, though I could argue a refluff of a simple design,

I think my opening is max money 2d6x10 plus 100 GP so 220 GP to start my character with with so I think some light working could work till we get loot and I can run back and get better gear.

Should I invest skill points and feats into Armor creation? Like crafting my own hide armors or something? Would that save me trouble or cause me trouble in the long run?

I would go VoP, at level 1 get a flat +4 to ac. Okay not amazing, but as you level you end up with like a +13 by level 17, you get a ton of orher boosts, and as a druid your gonna be in wildshape mainly to really be good. Honestly very few things will make you as a druid worse for wear, in your class alone your a beast. You can out melee anyone at higher levels because forms and spells


for abilities worry about con and wisdom, you dont need strength and dex

[Coidzor]

^: Eh? As I understand it, one can't dump strength and dex, even with the higher level wildshape abilities in Pathfinder. :smallconfused:


hmm the Eastern Armors are likely out unless I can come up with a good RP reason for having them, though I could argue a refluff of a simple design,

Horn you might be able to argue as something relevant to druids, but, IIRC, there would be a fair chance of leather lamellar in that region of Golarion from where it's positioned and the resources of the people in the area, and it's also something that fits in alright with western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_armour)armors despite being grouped in the PF SRD as eastern armor, mostly due to it lasting longer/being more culturally recognizable as part of the contact of the West with Japan and China. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308462)could help put it to bed one way or the other as well.

No guarantees one way or the other, but it never hurts to explore the possibilities. Though if you manage to get Vow of Poverty in, then you can't have armor anyway.


I think my opening is max money 2d6x10 plus 100 GP so 220 GP to start my character with with so I think some light working could work till we get loot and I can run back and get better gear.

At level 1, it depends on how mobile you want to be and what you want to be doing in fights. Around levels 3-5 is when you get your suit of armor that you're going to mostly use and improve upon for the rest of your adventuring career barring catastrophe or fundamental changes.


Should I invest skill points and feats into Armor creation? Like crafting my own hide armors or something? Would that save me trouble or cause me trouble in the long run?

Unless you want to be serious about crafting and also make magical items, probably not the best use of your skill points. Though, if you can retrain those skillpoints later, it's a simple enough way to lower the costs of character creation and getting your final weapons and armor before they're made into magical weapons.

And then if you take item crafting feats you can then be the person who makes your weapons magical, and effectively save on gold, though it does require fairly good access to downtime and DM being on board with you doing it.

[Sephoris]

And then if you take item crafting feats you can then be the person who makes your weapons magical, and effectively save on gold, though it does require fairly good access to downtime and DM being on board with you doing it.

The one thing you've got plenty of in Kingmaker is downtime. You'll spend entire months at a time on the kingdom building side of things, more than enough time to make some armor and weapons. And saving money is even more important in Kingmaker, too; in addition to all the things that you normally want to spend gold on, you're also going to want to occasionally pour some of your wealth into your kingdom.

And there is actually one way to have permanent ironwood items. There's a funky little prestige class called Nature Warden. It's designed as a Druid/Ranger hybrid thing, and it focuses a lot on your animal companion. But they eventually get an ability to Woodshape 1/day, and for the Nature Warden whatever they make with the ability is masterwork and ironwood. I actually played one when I played in a Kingmaker game.

[Emperor Tippy]

Even at high levels, with high levels of optimization, VOP comes WAY ahead on actual WBL comparison.

It's still not ideal, because the bonuses are fixed and include things you probably wouldn't buy. The epic bracers of armor and epic +8 ability item (which are NOT equivalent to anything else) alone outdo WBL.

Some people like to call the +8 ability score a +6 with a +2 inherent bonus. however, nothing prevents a vop character from also getting a +5 inherent bonus in their primary ability score, and they should do so. The +8 enhancement bonus is what it is... a +8 enhancement bonus, and must be valued accordingly.


All other bonuses must also add 8000gp for the wilding clasp equivalent.

Honestly, if Vow of Poverty didn't require an exalted alignment and allowed you to get actually decent bonus feats then I would put in on a Psion most of the time.

As it is now I'll run it on an Exalted Psion.

You Chaos Shuffle the bonus feats into decent feats and use your powers to make up for the lack of items.

Combine with Crystal Master 10 and get Kissed by the Ages, Hide Life, and Ice Assassin on your list of Power's Known. Age to Venerable and Ice Assassin yourself. Have your IA use Kissed by the Ages on you to give you the Endless template with no possibility of removal (as being a Power removes the Focus component). Use Hide Life on yourself (again as a power means no material component).

At ECL 20 you can end up with 41 constant Int and 44 Int when you are psionically focused. Oh yes, and 34 Dex when Psionically Focused.

One level of Kung Fu Genius Monk and Faerie Mysteries Initiate up's your AC to "absurd" (10 base +12 Dex + 15 VoP + 15 Armor bonus from Inertial Armor + 17 Int for 54 AC at ECL 20) and your HP to "front line melee" levels (323 minimum when not psionically focused, which adds 40 HP).

If you want actual item like things then you do then use the Open Chakra power and Psychic Reformation your feats for lots of Shape Soulmeld's until you have something bound to every chakra, at which point you shuffle the feats away again.

It can really be quite powerful but still, you are Exalted. Although this is a really great build for the classic Ascetic monk grandmaster who has achieved enlightenment kind of thing.

[Coidzor]

The one thing you've got plenty of in Kingmaker is downtime. You'll spend entire months at a time on the kingdom building side of things, more than enough time to make some armor and weapons. And saving money is even more important in Kingmaker, too; in addition to all the things that you normally want to spend gold on, you're also going to want to occasionally pour some of your wealth into your kingdom.

Actually that reminds me, I think they might have fixed it slightly, but wasn't one of the best ways for one's kingdom to make money to make it focused on producing materials for spellcasting and crafting magic items and then eventually just start a magic item crafting industry? :smallconfused:


And there is actually one way to have permanent ironwood items. There's a funky little prestige class called Nature Warden. It's designed as a Druid/Ranger hybrid thing, and it focuses a lot on your animal companion. But they eventually get an ability to Woodshape 1/day, and for the Nature Warden whatever they make with the ability is masterwork and ironwood. I actually played one when I played in a Kingmaker game.

That's pretty neat. And it's a PrC I hadn't heard mentioned before as far as I can recall. *goes to peruse*