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vanyell
2007-01-06, 01:06 AM
I was looking through the SRD, nad I could not find this.

what is the ECL of an awakened creature?

say I wanted to play an awakend cat, or something... what level would I be at?

thanks

oriong
2007-01-06, 01:16 AM
officially it's still --, meaning not an option.

In theory the ECL is VERY high. many animals have excellent bonuses, and cats are a very good example of this.

An awakened cat would for instance recieve the following:

+2 to AC and Attack (from size)
3 natural attacks
low light vision
scent!
+4 to dex, +2 wis, in exchange for -8 to strength and -4 + 1d3 to charisma
A net +12 to Hide (+16 in grass), +4 to move silently, +4 to climb, and +8 to balance. What's more they add dex instead of strength to climb and jump checks.
They also get two bonus feats.

In exchange they lose hands (a big penalty, but solvable) and 0 reach (also nasty).

however, the bonuses still vastly over-reach the penalties. while a cat barbarian or figher (while interesting) is a bad idea, there are a ton of builds where the cat is insanely good. It probably nets at least LA +2 with the additional Awakened HD (would probably be +3 without the HD)

but frankly I'd keep the LA --, players should not have something like an awakened cat, way to abusable.

vanyell
2007-01-06, 01:19 AM
thank you

****************small post limit********************

JaronK
2007-01-06, 01:19 AM
Yeah, I once fooled around with an Awakened Monkey Ninja... it was terribly overpowered. Turns out a huge bonus to climb and access to certain feats (confound the big folk, underfoot combat, etc) meant I was nearly invincible and dealt insane damage.

JaronK

oriong
2007-01-06, 01:30 AM
yeah, the monkey is probably more abusive than the cat (it gets hands!) and they're both beat out by the hawk, owl, and bat

Ravenscroft
2007-01-07, 01:52 AM
http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Awakened_Cat

Fizban
2007-01-07, 01:58 AM
Ok, having no hands is a serious disadvantage. Try duckt taping your thumbs down for a while, then do it to all your fingers at once. You still have more range of motion than a non-primate awakened animal. The benefits of animal type and typical bonuses/feats aren't better than the disadvantages. You lose magic item slots, and most that you don't lose require custom versions, meaning you can't use most of the group's loot. You can't use weapons, you don't have a ranged attack unless you're a caster, and this doesn't even reach the rp penalties you'll get for being an animal.

So, LA+0 I think, for just about any awakened animal. Plants are a different story, they have different abilities.

oriong
2007-01-07, 02:44 AM
Ok, having no hands is a serious disadvantage. Try duckt taping your thumbs down for a while, then do it to all your fingers at once. You still have more range of motion than a non-primate awakened animal.

Yes, it is quite a big disadvantage, but it is also one that can easily be gotten around, especially at higher levels. A ton of classes don't require hands at all, especially when you have several party members with hands to help you out. and the moment that cat gets a magic item of mage hand or improved mage hand you've eliminated practically all the disadvantage (hand of the mage is only 900 gp, a 2 HD cat/ 1st level character even with LA 0 can automatically afford it).

Also, frankly the need for hands is vastly overrated. in the real world it's a crippling problem, in d+d, not so much (even ignoring the magical solution), if you're traveling with a group there's really nothing you need to worry about.

Also, several classes don't care about having hands at all, warlocks are a good example, high level druids can just wildshape if they need anything, and any wizard or sorcerer above 3rd-4th level can Alter Self into a monkey. just about any spellcaster can get around, or ignore the problem, and for many classes the requirement to invest in a mage-hand item is vastly smaller than the bonuses at higher levels.



The benefits of animal type and typical bonuses/feats aren't better than the disadvantages. You lose magic item slots, and most that you don't lose require custom versions, meaning you can't use most of the group's loot.

Not really, first just about all the slots are there, but the helm, armor, boot, and ring slots might require custom versions (depending on how the DM feels). other than that it mostly works, although it's ridiculous looking.

Hell, you could even be an insanely effective Vow of Poverty character.



You can't use weapons, you don't have a ranged attack unless you're a caster,

Well, anyone who plays a cat is a caster, or a rogue-style character. You don't NEED weapons as a cat. you've got 3 built right in and it doesn't matter how sucky they are when you're a damn ghost and can add sneak attack damage. dip into warlock and you have built in ranged attack.


and this doesn't even reach the rp penalties you'll get for being an animal.

Not relevant at all.

First, rp penalties aren't penalties that should ever be considered in game balance, because they don't really exist (that's why barbarians and fighters dump charisma so often). And it's not to mention the many intangible bonuses you get from being an animal.


The problem with the cat (and many awakened animals) is that they're too horribly lopsided to ever be fair characters. The penalties they get are literally too big to actually matter, because it just means you either play a character where those penalties don't matter (in which case, they don't matter and you rock because you're rollign in bonuses) or you don't play a cat (because any other character sucks). Those who play a cat will ONLY play characters who can easily get around the penalties, and unfortunately the cat penalties ARE very easy to get around, while at the same time providing truly massive bonuses. It doesn't help that the bonuses they get almost all make them great at playing just two types: AC and stealth monkeys. The problem with cats isn't their LA, it's their potential for abuse.

Ravenscroft
2007-01-07, 06:21 AM
There is always potential for abuse with any character , not just Awakened Animals.
There are simple spells that can thwart a Tiny critter , such as the mere 2nd level Gust of Wind , for example.

Valairn
2007-01-07, 02:18 PM
lol Gust of wind > cat rouge (intentional spelling)

Behold_the_Void
2007-01-07, 02:35 PM
Oooh Cat Psion or Wilder. That's a fun idea.

Valairn
2007-01-07, 02:40 PM
Cat Cloistered Cleric!

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-07, 02:48 PM
Now I wanna play a russian awakened cat ninja. "I think not baby puppy!"

Valairn
2007-01-07, 03:11 PM
I wonder if Thog has something to say on awakened puppies?

Ravenscroft
2007-01-08, 03:51 AM
Cat Rouge! :confused:
Surely no-one tests cosmetics on animals , Mr Bigglesworth would not approve.

Valairn
2007-01-08, 07:55 AM
He is awakened! Maybe he puts makeup on himself ;-)

goken04
2007-01-08, 08:34 AM
But... it's so stupid to make a cat have a great LA than humans. That... doesn't make any sense.

What I would do, as a DM of someone wanting to play it, if I was okay with the class/animal combo, then I would make THEM pay for the awaken. That'll take a chunk outta their gold (if they can't do it when the game starts, they can't play the animal) and everyone knows gear makes the character. All these drawbacks that you're afraid they'll over come with custom magic items suddenly aren't as readily available.

Toliudar
2007-01-08, 10:52 AM
What I would do, as a DM of someone wanting to play it, if I was okay with the class/animal combo, then I would make THEM pay for the awaken. That'll take a chunk outta their gold (if they can't do it when the game starts, they can't play the animal) and everyone knows gear makes the character. All these drawbacks that you're afraid they'll over come with custom magic items suddenly aren't as readily available.

...unless they're playing a character like a sorcerer, druid or psion, who doesn't need to drop a lot on fancy armour and weapons, and has lost half of their available slots anyway, because THEY'RE A CAT.

An awaken spell costs a minimum of 1,750gp by RAW. That's what, a hat of disguise? After about 6th level, not even a consideration, let alone a major balancing factor.

Tokiko Mima
2007-01-08, 11:10 AM
The difference between your average cat and a panther, puma or jaguar is primarily size and Hit Dice. Should an awakened cougar have a level adjustment, and if so, how much of one?

Toliudar
2007-01-08, 11:21 AM
Well, let's see.

Stat modifiers would be:
Str +6
Dex +8
Con +4
Wis +2
Cha -4

Three natural attacks, improved grab, pouncing & raking, scent. With its various racial bonuses, this would be a truly fearsome rogue build. Win initiative, pounce, shred opponent.

Three racial hit dice, though. Oh, and no thumbs.

+2?

Thomas
2007-01-08, 11:31 AM
You can't give an LA to something like an awakened cat. It's totally useless in any role that requires melee combat (thanks to it's size and lack of reach), but way too good in any role that mostly requires mental ability scores, like spellcasting. It's not balanced as a PC; most PC races are at least relatively balanced. (Some races get more out of their racial abilities in certain classes, but there's no discrepancy like this.)

Valairn
2007-01-08, 11:39 AM
A cat useless in melee combat? A giant cat with sharp fangs and claws and death? Hrm.....

Now a small cat is a pretty neat idea for a wizard/sorcerer/favored soul/cleric or whatever.

I say we need a template that you can apply to animals that will help eschew some of the heavy LA that animals would apply, or design awakened animal races from the ground up possibly?

Tokiko Mima
2007-01-08, 11:55 AM
Or an awakened cat sorcerer/wizard whose familiar was a human! :P

Thomas
2007-01-08, 12:00 PM
A cat useless in melee combat? A giant cat with sharp fangs and claws and death? Hrm.....

Yes, useless. No reach = useless in melee, pretty much. And the Tiny size, and the fact you'd always be doing claw damage, and the reduced Str, etc. ...


Or an awakened cat sorcerer/wizard whose familiar was a human! :P

Sounds like Dernu and Gernu from Hero Wars' Sartar Rising: Orlanth is Dead! The pair lead rebels in fighting the occupiers, raiding deep into firmly-held enemy territory. Anyone who thinks the cat is the pet, familiar, or companion of the human warrior is dead wrong... in fact, the cat does all the talking, spellcasting, and planning.

Valairn
2007-01-08, 12:06 PM
I was talking about the panthers lol not the meows when I was talking about claw death.

Ravenscroft
2007-01-08, 12:12 PM
In Eberron , i could see House Phiarlan , House Thuranni or House Vadalis being interested in Awakened Cats.
The first two would employ them as thieves or spies ,
House Vadalis could supply them as companions to the wealthy.
Awakened Cats would be able to breed and have children (being magical beasts) ,
so after the initial investment with an Artificer (for Awaken Scrolls) , further spells would not be needed.
Awakened Animals probably have the same rights as Warforged , so they should be treated as citizens.

Considering that the Last War went for one hundred years ,
it would surprise me if largish numbers of awakened animals did not exist.
It would make sense to have enough for breeding and not rely on magic.
Many Tiny Animals would have been very useful as spies or saboteurs , not just cats.

Tormsskull
2007-01-08, 12:24 PM
Not relevant at all.

First, rp penalties aren't penalties that should ever be considered in game balance, because they don't really exist (that's why barbarians and fighters dump charisma so often). And it's not to mention the many intangible bonuses you get from being an animal.


... I'm guessing you play in RP-lite or H&S only games. As a DM I'd let you play an LA+1 race any day if you are willing to accept RP penalties. RP penalties often translate exactly into mechanical penalties.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-08, 12:41 PM
..Temptation to play an exalted awakened cat with a coure familiar... rising...

Everyone would think the Coure was the master, but nooo...>.>

Valairn
2007-01-08, 12:53 PM
An awakened wolf cleric hehe I have ideas now!

Foeofthelance
2007-01-08, 02:06 PM
Eh, I doubt the cat would be that bad off. It will need the stats after all.

I once let a player run around as an Undead Rat Wizard. High AC/Dex bonuses, all based off of the other rodent monsters we had found. He was reasonably decent as a spell caster, was no better off then any of the fighters when it came down to getting hit in combat (his natural bonuses where on par with their armor/shields). Yet he had one small problem. His form was better suited to a low hit die class, which meant low hit points...which meant when he took that direct hit from the Maximized Lightening bolt the Blue Dragon he had been antagonizing spat at him, there were rat bones all over the dungeon. The bonuses really aren't as impressive as they seem. But then, most things don't survive the tests of reality as well as they do the tests of pen and paper.

Ravenscroft
2007-01-08, 02:11 PM
A maximized lightning bolt , depending on level ,
would take out a number of character classes with low hit die , not just an undead rat wizard.
(Assuming that no items or spells of Protection were in play)

MrNexx
2007-01-08, 03:14 PM
Of course, this is reminding me of the Worg thread...

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-08, 04:48 PM
Eh, I doubt the cat would be that bad off. It will need the stats after all.

I once let a player run around as an Undead Rat Wizard. High AC/Dex bonuses, all based off of the other rodent monsters we had found. He was reasonably decent as a spell caster, was no better off then any of the fighters when it came down to getting hit in combat (his natural bonuses where on par with their armor/shields). Yet he had one small problem. His form was better suited to a low hit die class, which meant low hit points...which meant when he took that direct hit from the Maximized Lightening bolt the Blue Dragon he had been antagonizing spat at him, there were rat bones all over the dungeon. The bonuses really aren't as impressive as they seem. But then, most things don't survive the tests of reality as well as they do the tests of pen and paper.

Psst... all undead (even those with character classes) always use d12 hit dice. He should have had as many HP as a barbarian. >.>

oriong
2007-01-08, 06:44 PM
The rat isn't quite as bad as the cat, still don't reccomend it of course.

And abusive doesn't mean 'invulnerable and unbeatable god among men' it means that it has abilities that are poorly balanced and difficult to control without resorting to just 'turning them off' by short-circuiting, and they are not properly countered by penalties (or the penalties are easy to circumvent). The fact that the abuse hasn't reached the point where you have transcended beyond hit point damage doesn't mean it's not abuse.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 06:52 PM
You could be a Tressym and be a winged cat!

jlousivy
2007-01-08, 06:59 PM
I can see an awakened cat sorcerer taking the leadership feat. (and 1 cohort would be devoted to holding the cat out on a plush pillow)

Mewtarthio
2007-01-08, 11:26 PM
The first two would employ them as thieves or spies ,

Reminds me of this (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/cgi-bin/gg101.cgi?date=20060703) guy (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/cgi-bin/gg101.cgi?date=20060705).


that the Last War went for one hundred years ,
it would surprise me if largish numbers of awakened animals did not exist.
It would make sense to have enough for breeding and not rely on magic.
Many Tiny Animals would have been very useful as spies or saboteurs , not just cats.

*gasp* Somebody stat up a Living Awaken Spell, quick! Yes, I know Awaken is not a valid canditate for the template, but do I look like I care?


I can see an awakened cat sorcerer taking the leadership feat. (and 1 cohort would be devoted to holding the cat out on a plush pillow)

Three words: Ernst Stavro Blofeld. You don't honestly think that Blofeld was the true genius behind SPECTRE, do you? How many humans would think to buy a decoy cat instead of, say, body armor (Diamonds Are Forever)? And let's not forget For Your Eyes Only, in which, immediately after Blofeld's death, the camera cuts to his cat, impassively observing the scene from a distance.

Foeofthelance
2007-01-09, 01:20 AM
Sorry, but I can't figure out the qoutes on this thing yet, so bear with me.

They were level nine or there abouts, and weren't expecting anything, as the dragon was suffering from the Insanity spell. Hadn't made a move in over 5 or 6 rounds. So they hadn't bothered to buff.

And sorry Yuki, but while he was using d12s, he had a majot problem. Like all undead, he didn't have a con score, so he had maybe half the HP of the parties barbarian. The dragon wasn't a young one either.

Katonta
2007-01-09, 01:38 AM
Awakening creatures is fun, which comes to my favourite creature that I want to awaken, Squirrels! How much fun would it be to play an awakened squirrel or fight an awakened army of squirrels with class levels? If I ever get to DM, that will definitely be one of my Campaigns. An army of Squirrels led by a Druid have attacked the World. You are tasked with killing said Druid.

Ravenscroft
2007-01-09, 06:49 AM
Armour (http://www.jeffdeboer.com/Galleries/CatsMice/tabid/63/Default.aspx) for Awakened Cats & Mice.