[PF] Attribute of zero = coma?

[Spore]

Hi guys,

a simple question: How would you describe a coma for a drained ability of zero that is not Con?

Str and Dex is straight forward, but Int, Wis and Cha are pretty outlandish. You can end some encounters by draining the respective attribute via curse or major curse. If I was to stop a irrational party's barbarian via Cha curse from killing innocents or making a water elemental non sentient via Int damage (creating a comatose puddle of water???) how would you fluff this?

[peacenlove]

Int = 0 => Vegetable state
Wis or Cha = 0 => Deep, nightmarish hallucinations, rendering the character helpless.

[magotter]

How would you describe a coma for a drained ability of zero that is not Con?


This is actually covered in the D20 OGL, as well as on the PF SRD. Very minor descriptive difference in each, no less.

D20 OGL: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)
Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.


PF SRD: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Ability-Score-Damage)
A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious.
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.
A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose.
A character with a Wisdom score of 0 is incapable of rational thought and is unconscious.
A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.

[Keneth]

magotter has already pointed out the RAW explanations for each score, so I'll add the following: Penalties can never decrease your ability score to 0 or below. So bestow curse, major curse, ray of enfeeblement, etc. will never be able to incapacitate a creature. To do that you need either ability damage or ability drain.

[Spore]

I get Int and Wis now. But I thought Cha was anything more like being so depressive that they don't WANT to move anymore. Basically the worst self image besides actually comitting suicide, but still conscious. I don't get the unconscious part.

@ Keneth

Thanks for clarifying.

[Keneth]

Charisma is your mental strength. If your Charisma drops to 0, your personality becomes nonexistent and you can exert no mental effort, so you're no longer conscious.

[Spore]

By the way, is curse stackable? I.E. two Con curses net -12 Con? Or -6 Str and -6 Con?

[lsfreak]

By the way, is curse stackable? I.E. two Con curses net -12 Con? Or -6 Str and -6 Con?

It's not straightforward. If they're both identical curses, they don't stack. If they're two different kinds of curses, it's kind of up in the air. The relevant bit of text is:

Same Effect with Differing Results (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects)
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
The problem is that the printed version, rather than the SRD version, uses the example of Polymorph. Polymorph very obviously overwrites the previous effect, even if both spells are active. Whether something like bestow curse or energy resistance stacks or overwrites is ambiguous, and arguments are usually made on both sides when this comes up. Talk to your DM about it.

Another way to view Cha 0 is that they no longer have a sense of self. We're not talking about low self-image, but an inability to even recognize their own existence.

[The Oni]

I always interpreted Charisma drain as exactly that, you're...soulless. You're there, but the spark of life is nonexistent. You have no interest in anything; not eating, not sleeping, not screwing, not the mission and probably not even life, so you wouldn't defend yourself if attacked. Functionally you're KO'd. I would personally rule that the player could talk (if asked) and follow the party (out of habit), but not really do anything else that would require conscious thought.

[Urpriest]

If you have Wis 0, you cannot perceive your environment and have no sanity. Thus, you are helpless.

Charisma 0 essentially means you can't tell yourself from other beings.

This is why Wis and Cha are necessary for something to be a creature. Something that can't tell the difference between self and other or that can't perceive its surroundings isn't a creature, it's an object.

Also, Str and Dex 0 aren't comas, you're still conscious.

[Jormengand]

Also, Str and Dex 0 aren't comas, you're still conscious.

It's worth noting that a PF character with STR 0 is unconscious, though.

[TuggyNE]

It's worth noting that a PF character with STR 0 is unconscious, though.

But... why? :smallconfused:

[magotter]

But... why? :smallconfused:

You're too weak to inflate your own lungs fully, depriving your brain of oxygen, and inducing a nice nap.

[JHShadon]

But... why? :smallconfused:

Because since you can't move you've got nothing better to do.

[TuggyNE]

You're too weak to inflate your own lungs fully, depriving your brain of oxygen, and inducing a nice nap.

If involuntary muscles are stopped, then Str 0 means you're dead: have fun with no heartbeat and no oxygen from lungs. If they're very precisely just weak enough to make you unconscious in all cases but not quite weak enough to kill you, that's an astonishing level of precision for something like poison, which, in real life, may very possibly paralyze a sufficiently weak creature enough to kill, or may be unable to knock out a sufficiently sturdy creature, or may not target any but voluntary muscles.

Let's just say this harms verisimilitude a lot.


Because since you can't move you've got nothing better to do.

… OK? Me, if I ran out of Str in a combat or whatever, I'd be straining (however futilely) to get out of danger and be watching everything around me like a hawk. I wouldn't think "oh well, Str 0, may as well go to sleep, not like I got anything better to do", any more than someone tied up automatically goes to sleep at once. Helpless != unconscious.

[Spore]

… OK? Me, if I ran out of Str in a combat or whatever, I'd be straining (however futilely) to get out of danger and be watching everything around me like a hawk. I wouldn't think "oh well, Str 0, may as well go to sleep, not like I got anything better to do", any more than someone tied up automatically goes to sleep at once. Helpless != unconscious.

Don't mix up PF and d20 definitions here. In the one, Str 0 is unconscious, in the other "just" helpless.

[TuggyNE]

Don't mix up PF and d20 definitions here. In the one, Str 0 is unconscious, in the other "just" helpless.

I'm aware. I'm trying to figure out why, in the former, they made Str 0 == unconscious, when that makes no kind of sense that I can yet determine. In the latter, Str 0 just means you're too weak to move on your own, not that all your muscles (diaphragm, heart, and all) are completely incapable of functioning.

[Spore]

As someone who experienced his granddad having a heart attack, I suppose, it is pretty much like that. Consciousness is considered stable by paramedics (hence the important question: "Is the patient conscious?"), unconsciousness is quite literally dying (due to oxygen deprivation to the brain). Still, dying due to the latter still takes about 3 minutes of loosing brain cells, so I'd consider having 30 more seconds of a fight is acceptable.

Carrying him half across the city to the shrine to be healed would be quite a stretch really. But D&D and PF heroes can stop dying by passing an easy Fort save, so there's that.