Sneaky Charge Fighter?

[kimfu]

Hey what's up :smallsmile:
I'm trying to build a charging fighter but i can't really optimize it as much as i would've want it. (I can't get the Totemist Barbarian T_T)

So up to now I'm going through the chain to get Shook Trooper.
I'm using a Great Sword to add more punch to the charge, but we've (my dm and I) come to a stop when I asked him if i could get a rogue level to Charge+Sneak Attack.
I've read somewhere that as long as you have concealment you can sneak attack, and that as long as you don't take 2 actions to move and attack respectively, you still count as concealed for sneak attack.

So I want to know if it is possible to do it :smallbiggrin:

[Spore]

The PF archetype Scout (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/rogue.html#_scout) does this perfectly. Idk, if you want to play a Rogue 8, but you COULD ask your DM to rewrite that do 3.5.

[Telonius]

Here's a WotC article (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a) about Sneak Attack and concealment. (There are several others in the series, Google will get you what you need). Here's the SRD on Concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment). You're correct, that as long as you have total Concealment against your foe, you can sneak attack that foe. Note that some (but not all) instances that grant you total concealment to your foe, also grants your foe total concealment against you. If this happens, sneak attack is not possible.

You get a sneak attack whenever your opponent is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC. There are a number of ways of doing this. One easy way: combatants who have not yet taken their first turn in initiative are treated as flat-footed; that is, denied their dexterity to AC. If you beat something in initiative, it's subject to sneak attacks until it goes in the first round (unless it's otherwise immune, like an undead or a construct). Charging a foe that hasn't gone would trigger sneak attack against that foe (unless they have Uncanny Dodge, which allows them to keep Dex to AC even when flatfooted).

Flanking will also usually grant you sneak attack (unless the foe has Improved Uncanny Dodge or some other special ability). As a Fighter, you'll often be in the middle of combat, so it won't be all that hard to come by.

Also: the Craven feat is your friend.

[Spore]

So lob in a smoke stick, hide and charge in shouting: "I am the terror that flaps in the night"?

[Darrin]

I've read somewhere that as long as you have concealment you can sneak attack, and that as long as you don't take 2 actions to move and attack respectively, you still count as concealed for sneak attack.


I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do, but it's a little more complicated than that. If you have concealment with respect to your target but he still is aware that you're there, you don't get sneak attack. Also, if your target has concealment (such as you are both standing within the radius of a darkness spell), you don't get sneak attack even if your target is unaware of you. Any time your target has concealment or cover with respect to you, sneak attack just doesn't work. You need to be able to see your target clearly to use it.

If you're just trying to attack a target while you have concealment and you're hidden or your target isn't aware of you, then that's bog-standard sneak attack, exactly how it should be, roll your attack and add your sneak attack to the damage.

You get sneak attack whenever:
1) Your target is flanked.
2) Your target is denied his Dex bonus.

This last condition can be achieved a bunch of different ways, but the most common are when he is flat-footed at the beginning of combat, when he's flat-footed as the result of balancing on slippery or unstable terrain, or when he is so completely unaware of you that he is effectively "blind" to your position and what you are doing. If your target can't see you, then you are treated as if you are an invisible attacker, and he loses his Dex bonus against you. You can accomplish this several different ways:

a) Being invisible.
b) Using fog/smoke/snow/blacklight/total darkness/etc. to completely negate his ability to see you, giving you 100% total concealment, while using blindsight or some other effect to negate the concealment and see your target clearly.
c) Hide skill. To hide, you two things have to happen first: #1 you need cover or concealment and #2 you can't be observed while hiding.

Once you've hidden yourself, you may move out of cover/concealment or whatever, attack your opponent, and get sneak attack damage. After the first attack, if you still have cover/concealment and your opponent still can't see you (or is still flanked or denied his Dex bonus for some other reason), you can continue to attack and get sneak attack damage on all your attacks. If all you're doing is charging and making a single melee attack, then that's all you need to know and you should be good to go.

However, if you have Pounce or want to make multiple attacks on a charge, it's likely that once you jump out of hiding and attack, your opponent can now see you, and you no longer get sneak attack damage after your first attack. There are a variety of abilities called "Hide in Plain Sight" (abbrev. HiPS) that let you ignore one of the two conditions for hiding, such as hiding while being observed or without cover/concealment. But every HiPS is worded a little differently, so you'd have to tell us which one you're interested in, and we can tell you how best to get it and use it. But if you have HiPS, it may be possible to keep attacking, and make a Hide check after every attack to remain hidden. It's very difficult to do, as attacking gives you a -20 penalty on your Hide check, but some optimized builds can pull this off relatively easily.

[kimfu]

I wasn't looking for anything to complicated, I'm still fairly new to D&D.
My idea was something like this:
O:Ally
X:Enemy
[]:Me
T:Tree


T (I'm Hiding :P)
[]T XO
T


T(Charge from hiding)
T---->[]XO
T


In this case could it be possible?
Was hiding, and charged for a flank?

[Darrin]

In this case could it be possible?
Was hiding, and charged for a flank?

If you only get one attack on a charge, then you get sneak attack for two different reasons.

1) If you're hidden behind cover and your opponent doesn't know you're there, then you can move out of cover and attack. You get sneak attack because your opponent isn't aware of you, and is denied his Dex bonus, until after your attack.

2) If your opponent is flanked when you finish your charge, you get sneak attack because he's flanked, regardless of whether he spotted you hiding or not.

There is no rule that says if you move twice or move a certain amount after hiding, then you don't get sneak attack. Attacking from a hidden location is a good way to get sneak attack, at least for your first attack.

[Chronos]

Note that, by itself, a single rogue level gets you very little: One level of rogue gets you only 1d6 extra damage, or an average of 3.5. But it'll also cost you a point of BAB, which already means the loss of 2 potential damage from Power Attack and Shock Trooper. Plus, if you have any means of multiplying your damage (critical hits, if nothing else), it'll apply to the Shock Trooper damage, but not to the Sneak Attack.

Now, what can be worthwhile is if, after taking that rogue dip, you can get the feat Craven, from Champions of Ruin. That gives you an extra +1 damage per character level (note: Not just rogue level) whenever you make a sneak attack. That's a lot of damage for a fairly small investment, and it can be multiplied.

[Metahuman1]

You want a scout level or two, and maybe a bit of Factotum for Iai-Jutsu focus + a belt of battle and that white raven feat line in tome of battle that makes things flat footed for ten rounds it sounds like.

Oh, and you desperately want to take a level of Ranger and buy some eternal wands of Lions Charge to stash in wand chambers. (Spell Compendium: 1st level spell if I remember right, gives you pounce for a very short amount of time.)

[Chronos]

You can't have an Eternal Wand of Lion's Charge, and even if you could, a ranger couldn't use it: Eternal wands are for arcane spells only, and can be used by arcane casters only (though what kind of arcane caster doesn't matter).

But that's fine, since you'd want a regular wand instead of an eternal one, anyway. 50 charges isn't really a meaningful limitation: By the time you use them up, you'll be so rich it won't matter. But 2/day is a meaningful limitation, for something you'd want to use every combat.

[ddude987]

So lob in a smoke stick, hide and charge in shouting: "I am the terror that flaps in the night"?

This won't work because when you emerge from the smoke your opponent can see you and therefore you do not have total concealment. If you surround them with smoke then they have a miss chance on them when you attack and are therefore not eligible for sneak attack.