Eternal Blade Archer

[Firechanter]

Since we touched / revived the concept of a Warblade/Eternal Blade Archer in Red Fel's thread, but couldn't discuss it broadly because he wanted a melee build, I figured we could take this to a separate thread.

Eternal Blade lends itself to an Archer build since the race requirement automatically provides us with the necessary weapon proficiency without taking a feat, and the Dex bonus is of course also good to have.

Darrin posted the following build:

Race: Snow Elf
1) Ranger 1. Feat: PB Shot. Bonus: Track -> Trap Expert ACF.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Barbarian 1. Feat: Precise Shot. Rage -> Whirling Frenzy.
4) Fighter 1. Bonus: WF Longbow.
5) Warblade 1.
6) Warblade 2. Feat: Manyshot.
7) Warblade 3.
8) Warblade 4.
9) Warblade 5. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (CWar). Bonus: Improved Initiative.
10) Warblade 6.
11) Eternal Blade 1.
12) Eternal Blade 2. Feat: Improved Precise Shot.
13) Eternal Blade 3.
14) Eternal Blade 4.
15) Eternal Blade 5. Feat: Sudden Recovery
16) Eternal Blade 6.
17) Eternal Blade 7.
18) Eternal Blade 8. Feat: Martial Stance -> Stance of Alacrity
19) Eternal Blade 9.
20) Eternal Blade 10.

Maneuvers:
WB1: Wall of Blades, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Bolstering Voice [Stance]
WB2: Moment of Perfect Mind
WB3: White Raven Tactics.
WB4: Pearl of Black Doubt [Stance]
WB5: Fountain of Blood
WB6: Replace Wolf Fang Strike -> Lion's Roar or Covering Strike
EB1: Dancing Mongoose.
EB3: Order Forged From Chaos
EB5: Quicksilver Motion, Giant's Stance or Hearing the Air [Stance]
EB7: Raging Mongoose
EB8: Martial Stance -> Stance of Alacrity
EB9: Time Stands Still


Make It Rain

Full Attack: 6 attacks = 4 iteratives + 1 (Rapid Shot) + 1 (Whirling Frenzy)

Turn 1: 12 attacks, Time Stands Still. Swift -> White Raven Tactics. Immediate -> Island in Time.
Turn 2 (IiT): 6 attacks, Refresh maneuvers.
Turn 3 (WRT1): 12 attacks, Time Stands Still. Swift -> White Raven Tactics.
Turn 4 (WRT2): 12 attacks, Swift -> Sudden Recovery to get Time Stands Still

Total: 42 attacks.

If we add in haste... then we can get 49 attacks, I think? And that's without Splitting, which could get us up to 98 attacks. Hmm. Wish I could fit Raging Mongoose in there somewhere.


However, there are a couple of flaws with that build:

1. he picks Dancing/Raging Mongoose with Eternal Blade levels. Eternal Blade does not have access to Tiger Claw.

2. an Elf will suffer Multiclass XP penalty for this mixture of base classes. A Half-Elf may not, but here again we lose out on the proficiency.

That's all I can see right now. However, we may be able to take Raging Mongoose per Martial Study on 18. As for the classes, I'd just go straight Warblade/EB or pick a Ranger-favouring subrace and go Ranger2/Warblade8/EB10.

Now for the big question:
What other maneuvers (from permitted Disciplines) are useful for an Archer? Any experience? I'm gonna pore over the Tome myself, but would be nice to get some input from people who have already pulled it off.

[Piggy Knowles]

Tempest Stormwind and his gaming group put together the Heavy Weapons Elf a while back. It answers both of the issues you have with Darrin's build, lacking multiclassing penalties and using Martial Study to pick up Raging Mongoose.

The original thread (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3546396) is having some trouble due to the WotC board changes, but here is a copy of the build:


Build Stub: Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 10.

1 – Warblade – (Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude) (Point Blank Shot) (Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind) (Blood in the Water)

2 – Warblade – (Uncanny Dodge) (Douse the Flames)

3 – Warblade – (Battle Ardor) (Precise Shot) (Wall of Blades)

4 – Warblade – (Action Before Thought > Wolf Fang Strike) (Hunter’s Sense)

5 – Warblade – (Improved Initiative) (White Raven Tactics)

6 – Warblade – (Improved Uncanny Dodge) (Woodland Archer) (Iron Heart Surge > Douse the Flames)

7 – Warblade – (Battle Cunning) (Covering Strike)

8 – Warblade – (Don’t swap anything)

9 – Warblade – (Dancing Mongoose) (Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow, Blind-Fight)

10 – Warblade – (Iron Heart Focus > Action Before Thought) (Hearing the Air)

11 – Eternal Blade – (Blade Guide, Eternal Training 1) (Order Forged from Chaos)

12 – Eternal Blade – (Guided Strike) (Rapid Shot)

13 – Eternal Blade – (Armored Uncanny Dodge, Eternal Training 2) (Iron Heart Endurance)

14 – Eternal Blade – (Eternal Knowledge)

15 – Eternal Blade – (Eternal Training 3) (Martial Study) (Diamond Defense, Raging Mongoose) (Supreme Blade Parry)

16 – Eternal Blade – (Defensive Insight)

17 – Eternal Blade – (Eternal Training 4) (Time Stands Still)

18 – Eternal Blade – (Tactical Insight) (Improved Precise Shot)

19 – Eternal Blade – (Eternal Training 5) (Quicksilver Motion)

20 – Eternal Blade – (Island in Time)

[Red Fel]

For the record, I actually regret the fact that it was off-topic in my thread, specifically because of the potential for awesome here.

I've heard a lot of complaints in the past about whether ToB can handle ranged combat, and in just a few posts, you guys killed it. I mean, seriously, that setup was sick.

I'm going to be watching this thread for signs of more awesome. That is all.

[Kioras]

I've heard a lot of complaints in the past about whether ToB can handle ranged combat, and in just a few posts, you guys killed it. I mean, seriously, that setup was sick.

I believe that particular dragon was dead as soon as it flew into the eternal blades LOS.

[Talya]

I believe that particular dragon was dead as soon as it flew into the eternal blades LOS.

That particular dragon didn't need to fly into the Eternal Blade's LOS... because it had fighter levels, was on horseback, and had far shot.

(Sorry. I couldn't resist.)

[Darrin]

1. he picks Dancing/Raging Mongoose with Eternal Blade levels. Eternal Blade does not have access to Tiger Claw.


Whoops! Sorry, I tried to throw that together quickly, and for some reason I got the Mongoose stuff mixed up with Diamond Mind. I was actually hoping to use Dancing Mongoose, but had to use all my swift actions for something else (usually WRT).



2. an Elf will suffer Multiclass XP penalty for this mixture of base classes. A Half-Elf may not, but here again we lose out on the proficiency.


Bow proficiency is kinda taken care of with the Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian levels. Although it would have been better if I had started withe Fighter 2/Barb 1/Something 1, as the first level of Ranger really isn't doing much. Barb was necessary to get Whirling Frenzy. I thought about throwing on Dragon Totem for Blind-Fight, but thought Fast Movement made slightly more sense on an archer.

Half-Elf does fix the multiclass problem.



That's all I can see right now. However, we may be able to take Raging Mongoose per Martial Study on 18. As for the classes, I'd just go straight Warblade/EB or pick a Ranger-favouring subrace and go Ranger2/Warblade8/EB10.


Given how absolutely vital Counters are to this build, Stance of Alacrity is too important, and Martial Study at ECL 18 is the only way to get it.



Now for the big question:
What other maneuvers (from permitted Disciplines) are useful for an Archer? Any experience? I'm gonna pore over the Tome myself, but would be nice to get some input from people who have already pulled it off.

I posted a list of maneuvers that work with ranged attacks in the Warblade Handbook. And the Crusader Handbook. And in an older Swordsage thread.

However, I may have missed a couple. Covering Strike, for example, doesn't specify melee. But I haven't made up my mind yet if that should be allowed to work with ranged attacks. Kinda leaning toward "should", because why would getting shot with an arrow be less disruptive than getting hit with a melee weapon?

And I thought my biggest problem was I can't refresh maneuvers via Island in Time because there's no swift action available during that turn. I think Eldariel fixed it by suggesting using the Blade Guide thingy to get Time Stands Still again, but I need to take a closer look at how that would work.

[Firechanter]

Thanks for posting the alternative build, will look at it after work.


I've heard a lot of complaints in the past about whether ToB can handle ranged combat, and in just a few posts, you guys killed it.

Well, it must be conceded that these EB builds distuingish themselves very, very late; barring heavy Aptitude cheese that just won't fly with many DMs.



Bow proficiency is kinda taken care of with the Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian levels.

Duh. My brain was knotted there. Mentally I first removed the multiclasses and then changed the race.


I posted a list of maneuvers that work with ranged attacks in the Warblade Handbook. And the Crusader Handbook. And in an older Swordsage thread.


Cool, I'll look those up.


And I thought my biggest problem was I can't refresh maneuvers via Island in Time because there's no swift action available during that turn. I think Eldariel fixed it by suggesting using the Blade Guide thingy to get Time Stands Still again, but I need to take a closer look at how that would work.

Eternal Training that is. Well, as written it was probably meant to grant you access to a maneuver you don't already know. It says nothing about giving you an extra Readied slot (although this can be implied, since you normally don't have time to ready a new maneuver once combat started) or allowing you to ready a maneuver you already know twice.

Anyway, I don't think not being able to refresh on the same turn isn't such a big problem. With Time Stands Still and Island in Time you have such a sick Burst mode that normally there won't _be_ a second round.

And if you manage to pick up Raging Mongoose somehow, you can do the following: regular Ini turn, use Swift activate Raging Mongoose, then use Time Stands Still, do your double Full Attack, then use Immediate to activate Island in Time, do another Full Attack. With Haste and Rapid Shot, you get 16 attacks on your regular turn and 6 on your Immediate Action, equals 22, with Splitting that makes 44 arrows; if you also use Whirling Frenzy that goes up to 50 arrows, in _one round_. That avoids the question whether you can use Eternal Training to re-use Time Stands Still; if it is decided that you can, we're up at 62 arrows.
If _anything_ still is the condition to strike back after you let loose a half-hundred arrows, you are doing it wrong. ;)

Of course, the downside is you are still shut down as easily as any archer -- most DR can be bypassed, but a single level 2 Wind Wall spell will still pose problems.

[Darrin]

Cool, I'll look those up.


My Notes for Ranged Warblades (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10296220&postcount=420).

My Crusader Archers post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12450184&postcount=3).

An older Ranged Swordsage post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11918094&postcount=16).

There are several builds with maneuver progressions in those posts. Do you want me to repost them here?

[Firechanter]

Thanks for the links! If you like you can re-post the progressions, but I for one don't have a problem with clicking and opening another window. =)

It seems there are plenty of valid and workable builds for a "Warbow". Off hand, I'd look at the following: avoid Manyshot, and instead use Swift Action Movement, and Short Range Teleport if need be.

Elf - "Eternal Warbow" as you call it
1-10 Warblade, 11-20 Eternal Blade

Feats:
1 PBS
3 Rapid Shot
5 Improved Ini
6 Woodland Archer
9 Weapon Focus
12 Precise Shot [need this for Splitting]
15 Martial Study: Raging Mongoose
18 ???

As for Stances and Maneuvers, I yet have to mix and match a nice combo, but it will certainly contain:

- Sudden Leap
- Moment of Perfect Mind
- Wall of Blades
- WRT
- Dancing Mongoose (too bad we can't swap that out later, though)
- Quicksilver Motion
- Time Stands Still

[Darrin]

It seems there are plenty of valid and workable builds for a "Warbow".


Let's not forget the Crusader. Actually... the feats for Eternal Crusbow need to be reworked, and it doesn't qualify for Eternal Blade (needs Weapon Focus). I'm not sure what to do with Travel Devotion or Precise Shot, but if we move up Improved Rapid Shot then it would look something like:

1) Crusader 1. IL 1.0. Feat: PB Shot.
2) Crusader 2. IL 2.0.
3) Crusader 3. IL 3.0. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Crusader 4. IL 4.0.
5) Crusader 5. IL 5.0.
6) Crusader 6. IL 6.0. Feat: Weapon Focus.
7) Crusader 7. IL 7.0.
8) Crusader 8. IL 8.0.
9) Crusader 9. IL 9.0. Feat: Manyshot.
10) Crusader 10. IL 10.0.
11) Eternal Blade 1. IL 11.0.
12) Eternal Blade 2. IL 12.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot/Gr. Manyshot.
13) Eternal Blade 3. IL 13.0.
14) Eternal Blade 4. IL 14.0.
15) Eternal Blade 5. IL 15.0. Feat: Travel Devotion/Precise Shot. Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
16) Eternal Blade 6. IL16.0.
17) Eternal Blade 7. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still.
18) Eternal Blade 8. IL 18.0. Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude.
19) Eternal Blade 9. IL 19.0.
20) Eternal Blade 10. IL 20.0. Island in Time.


Eternal Windicator... actually looks pretty much the same, feat-wise.

1) Paladin 1. IL 0.5. Feat: PB Shot.
2) Paladin 2. IL 1.0.
3) Paladin 3. IL 1.5. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Paladin 4. IL 2.0.
5) Crusader 1. IL 3.0.
6) RKV1. IL 4.0. Feat: Manyshot.
7) RKV2. IL 5.0. Divine Recovery.
8) RKV3. IL 6.0.
9) RKV4. IL 7.0. Feat: Weapon Focus.
10) RKV5. IL 8.0.
11) Eternal Blade 1. IL 9.0.
12) Eternal Blade 2. IL 10.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot/Gr. Manyshot.
13) Eternal Blade 3. IL 11.0.
14) Eternal Blade 4. IL 12.0.
15) Eternal Blade 5. IL 13.0. Feat: Travel Devotion/Precise Shot. Stance: Aura of Chaos.
16) Eternal Blade 6. IL14.0.
17) Eternal Blade 7. IL 15.0.
18) Eternal Blade 8. IL 16.0. Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
19) Eternal Blade 9. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still.
20) Eternal Blade 10. IL 18.0. Island in Time.

[Firechanter]

Just a note about the Eternal Windicator: level 5 isn't a good breakpoint. Since we can't get to RKV7, and Paladin spellcasting is meaningless, we might just as well break at RKV2 and fill up with Crusader levels for extra maneuvers.
The important thing is that we get Divine Recovery so we can spam Time Stands Still. Since that eats up our Swift Actions, it doesn't matter that we don't get the Mongoose maneuvers.
--> less Burst damage, more consistent damage in longer battles.

[Eldariel]

Half-Elf has another good side to it: You qualify for Able Learner which transfers Ranger's actually useful skill lists over. Since you're an Archer, Spot/Hide are obviously very useful, and having more Knowledges in class makes Knowledge Devotion maxing a bit easier (though, of course, Knowledge Devotion itself gives you one Knowledge always in class and Eternal Knowledge gives you decent base values in a bunch of them). Unfortunately they still have no useful bonuses as a race so you'll basically have to burn a feat and race for these bonuses. Otherwise I prefer Fire Elves (+Dex, -Con, +Int, -Cha). -Con isn't that bad with your excellent natural Fort-saves, normally ranged position and d12-d8 HD.

Wood Elf can go Ranger 4/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10 though that's still far inferior to Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10. Luckily I've never played a game with XP penalties so that hasn't been a problem for me thus far (XP penalties kinda don't work with the new base classes since no race has them so they can't be the centers of multiclass builds without penalties unless you're Human/Half-Elf).


I can post more accurate build or two later with better time but suffice to say, I always go for duality insofar as having both, melee and ranged capability since it's so easy to do that with Eternal Blade. Barbarian gives Pounce, you can take Bounding Assault maneuver for charge anywhere and you can max Strength which also translates into damage on a bow (provided your Dex is high anyways).

Oh, and Sudden Leap feels like an almost must; one of the best low level maneuvers for an Archer. Iron Heart Surge & WRT are obviously great and then you have utility for most of the rest of the slots.

[Firechanter]

As we're about it: since I like Humans, I'll try to make the next best thing out of it. So no Eternal Blade, but a Warblade with some multiclassing. How about
Warblade 14 16 / Ranger 2 / Barb 2

Obviously, you pick Rapid Shot with Ranger and Whirling Frenzy with Barb. And sure, you can use the Human feat for Able Learner, why not?
One advantage sticking to Warblade is that we don't need to pay a feat for Raging Mongoose. So in Endgame, we can get the following attack routine (assuming you get Haste from an item or as buff):

[4 (BAB) + 1 (Rapid Shot) + 1 (Whirling Frenzy) + 2 (Raging Mongoose) +1 Haste] x2 (TSS) x2 (Splitting) = 36 arrows. Not quite the ~44-50 an Eternal Bow can get, but still not too shabby either! Also, we don't have to pay the Weapon Focus feat tax, so we can take for instance Knowledge Devotion instead, for better hit and damage with each arrow.

Of course, that's on every odd round. Every other round, we'll be refreshing, and get off "only" 7 attacks = 14 arrows. How terrible =D Oh right, if you can use WRT on yourself in your game, you can do that every other round first -- so when it's your turn, you do a Full Attack, use WRT, then Refresh and Full Attack again --> 28 arrows.

Effectively, that would get you 36+28 / 2 = 32 arrows per round on average. That may even be a tad better than the Eternal Bow, but of course with the enormous Burst Mode of the Eternal Bow in the first round, odds are there will not even be a second one.

[Eldariel]

As we're about it: since I like Humans, I'll try to make the next best thing out of it. So no Eternal Blade, but a Warblade with some multiclassing. How about
Warblade 14 / Ranger 2 / Barb 2

Obviously, you pick Rapid Shot with Ranger and Whirling Frenzy with Barb. And sure, you can use the Human feat for Able Learner, why not?

You're missing two levels. Warblade 16 works fine. Also, thanks to the extra skill points and slightly better list Able Learner isn't that important on straight Warblade though it might still be worth the slot.


One advantage sticking to Warblade is that we don't need to pay a feat for Raging Mongoose.

The Martial Skill items tend to circumvent this problem in the Eternal Blade builds. Tiger Claw Bracers gives it to you if you just have the prerequisites (three Tiger Claw maneuvers - easy enough with Hunter's Sense and Sudden Leap leaving only one more needed; and Initiator Level 15 which you get naturally either way). Eternal Blade build can also use the Normal version to pick up Dancing Mongoose earlier.

Incidentally, this is a decent way to get Stance of Alacrity without burning a feat too, though with the obvious consequences of not being able to use it in AMFs. Being able to pick them up naturally is of course still a boon; it guarantees access and saves you 45k which is of course a very significant sum on money-starved martial types.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, 16, never mind my brain, maybe I should get some sleep.

FWIW, while the Novice items are a great deal, I think the Master version is just too expensive. I mean sure, an extra maneuver is good, but there's so much other stuff you need your money for already.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, 16, never mind my brain, maybe I should get some sleep.

FWIW, while the Novice items are a great deal, I think the Master version is just too expensive. I mean sure, an extra maneuver is good, but there's so much other stuff you need your money for already.

Well, they're not early game items that's for sure but by level 20 you can afford one. Two is pushing it, though possible (everything changes if someone can craft 'em for you of course). But in general, as long as you aren't getting +5 enhancement on weapons and armor and stuff you've got some gold to spare and it's an option (and if you have caster allies you can get Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment to get those stats anyways).