Optimization levels on published adventures

[Morphie]

Hi! So, after reading a bunch of threads about optimization, tiers and that kind of stuff I started thinking about something: How much optimization on the NPC's/BBEG do you find on published adventures by Wizards and Paizo, as well as other publishing companies that I might have forgotten.

From the ones I've played/ DM'ed, they seem to be prepared for adventurers made out from the core books, so, not that much optimization.
I see optimization as a way to make the most out of your PC in order to fit the concept you imagined and to face the adventures effectively, not to just crush everything in your way. So, if the opponents are built in a simple way, the PCs should also be built with the same "tools", in order to keep it challenging.

But that's just my opinion.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks :smallsmile:

[Story]

they seem to be prepared for adventurers made out from the core books, so, not that much optimization.

Source restrictions != optimization. Many of the most broken options are core only.

With that out of the way, optimization of published characters is generally very low. For RHoD in particular, there's a big guide about how to customize the npcs so they actually present a challenge. For more obscure adventures, you're on your own.

[Lactantius]

Most of the time, published adventures are core only. Sometimes, later 3.5E products use some extended material, like a feat or a spell from complete X, but nothing overwhleming.

But overwhelming is what a party itself would be if you stick to the most recommendations in forums, guides, handbooks and so on.

That's why stuff like the Tier system and many recommendations coming from those sources fail in practical gaming.

Practical gaming =! theoretical possibilites of all sourcebooks (at least, if your DM himself does not overoptimize like hell).

Personally, I found many tipps interesting, but most of the time they have a secondary function.
The primary function is the PC as character himself within the game world, including immersion and anticipation.

Thus, if one or more PCs start to optimize too much, the game difficulty changes drastically.
It's like there are 2 games played simultaenously: the core game the DM presents and the isolated optimized PCs, coming from a optimization level far beyond.

[Story]

That's why stuff like the Tier system and many recommendations coming from those sources fail in practical gaming.

Practical gaming =! theoretical possibilites of all sourcebooks (at least, if your DM himself does not overoptimize like hell).


This is debateable to say the least. But it's probably better off discussed in a different thread.

[Morphie]

Just to be clear: I know that having only the core books as the only resource doesn't necessarily mean low optimization, but, so far, judging by most the adventures I've played (where I include Red Hand of Doom - which I DM'ed) there seems to be fairly low to none optimization. On the RHoD I had to give the opponents a bit of a help (maxing HP's and other stuff) just to keep them challenging to the party, and they're a low to mid-op group.

So, it comes down to this: Was the possibility of optimization a thing that the creators of this adventures missed out on or is the purpose of the game to keep things on a basic level to cater for a wider group that also includes the casual gamers? Should there be adventures rated not only as "levels x to y", but also by difficulty level?
These questions are, of course, pointless when you create custom adventures that are suited for the player's profiles and optimization levels, but unfortunately not everyone has that ability to create a good storyline that is adjusted to the game system and allows the players to be "part of the book", but not just as readers with no impact on the story.

Thanks for your insights so far :smallsmile:

[Emperor Tippy]

Published adventures tend to run from "absolutely no optimization at all" to "minor to, in a few places moderate, optimization".

Honestly, the adventures that you will find requiring the highest amount of player optimization of all the published adventures are the ones in the Elder Evils book.

Savage Tide is moderately all right but even with that, a high op party could kill all of the demon lords in the book without too much issue if they wanted to.

[AMFV]

Just to be clear: I know that having only the core books as the only resource doesn't necessarily mean low optimization, but, so far, judging by most the adventures I've played (where I include Red Hand of Doom - which I DM'ed) there seems to be fairly low to none optimization. On the RHoD I had to give the opponents a bit of a help (maxing HP's and other stuff) just to keep them challenging to the party, and they're a low to mid-op group.

So, it comes down to this: Was the possibility of optimization a thing that the creators of this adventures missed out on or is the purpose of the game to keep things on a basic level to cater for a wider group that also includes the casual gamers? Should there be adventures rated not only as "levels x to y", but also by difficulty level?
These questions are, of course, pointless when you create custom adventures that are suited for the player's profiles and optimization levels, but unfortunately not everyone has that ability to create a good storyline that is adjusted to the game system and allows the players to be "part of the book", but not just as readers with no impact on the story.

Thanks for your insights so far :smallsmile:

Well certainly the writers can't be aware of every group's capabilities. It's much easier for a DM to tone things up, than to tone them down, that way you might lose vital parts of combats, storyline stuff if you haven't read far enough ahead.

I always find it fairly easy to tone each adventure up to each group's own optimization level although generally the case is that I have to do that.

[Person_Man]

First, optimization is different from Tier.

Optimization is mostly about raw numbers. Given enough class levels and/or wealth, I can optimize almost anything to deal massive damage and high AC/hit points/saves. This allows me to grind through monsters much more easily.

Tier is about options. A completely unoptimized mid-level Wizard (someone with terrible Feat choices, no magic items other then his spellbook, and mediocre attributes), can still memorize Scrying, Teleport, and some Summons, spy on an enemy location, teleport in, Summon some high level monsters to kill them, and Teleport out. And if that doesn't work, through trial and error he can just try different spells until he figures something out. He has literally dozens of different other tactics he can try. This allows him to actively shape the campaign and change the conditions of the game, instead of just grinding through it.

If your DM runs a module like a computer game (you enter the room, he follows the instructions, with little or no improvisation or changes) then both the character optimization level and Tier required to complete them is generally very low.

The trick is, players have to understand the importance of scouting, retreating, and resting. They need to take their time, carefully try and figure out where monsters are located, set up favorable combat conditions through ambushes and careful tactics, avoid unnecessary combats when possible, use their daily and other limited resources in defeating the monsters, have an escape plan so that they can get away quickly if they're close to death, and then go back to town or use Rope Trick to rest rest often, they'll be fine.

If they don't do this, then they'll either need to need a high optimization level (which allows players to just kick down the door and grind through things) or a high Tier (which allows players to just resolve problems with powerful magic or psionics).

Of course, if the DM does not run a module like a computer and dynamically responds to the players and changes things up, then everything is entirely dependent on the DM. He is the god of his world, and can change things to suite the situation however he wishes.

[Alleran]

Savage Tide is moderately all right but even with that, a high op party could kill all of the demon lords in the book without too much issue if they wanted to.
Including Malcanthet? As I recall, the party should be around 17th level (-ish, it's been a while) when they reach her, but in her palace they not only have to surrender all their equipment first (and walk around naked), but when they speak with her it's in her throne room, which is packed with demons of all levels up to Pit Fiends, has her Radiant Sisters (advanced succubi with class levels) nearby, and everything in nearby rooms to boot.

EDIT: Although I suppose this depends on what you mean by high-op, you being you...

[Telonius]

Shackled City is a favorite of mine ... but man, oh man, were those bad guys unoptimized. I had to dial up probably 75% of the named baddies to make them last more than a couple of rounds.

[Emperor Tippy]

Including Malcanthet? As I recall, the party should be around 17th level (-ish, it's been a while) when they reach her, but in her palace they not only have to surrender all their equipment first (and walk around naked), but when they speak with her it's in her throne room, which is packed with demons of all levels up to Pit Fiends, has her Radiant Sisters (advanced succubi with class levels) nearby, and everything in nearby rooms to boot.

EDIT: Although I suppose this depends on what you mean by high-op, you being you...

The party only has to surrender all of their equipment if they are stupid enough to not sneak it in.

But even if you do, have your divine caster throw out a Miracle Hallow to shut down transport when you are close to her while your arcane caster throws out a Widened Forcecage to trap her in with the party and away from her back up. Have the party melee trigger their Craft Contingent Selective Antimagic field and charge into melee range of her before proceeding to whack her until she dies (which should be one turn honestly) and remember to use a Thinaun weapon just to be safe.

Once dead pack her body and items into your bag of holding/portable hole and then use a Wish to get someone safe.

I actually have a Factotum that could solo her during your first conversation with her, and be Wished out of there before anyone else gets to act.

[Alleran]

The party only has to surrender all of their equipment if they are stupid enough to not sneak it in.
How would you go about sneaking your stuff in?

[Story]

I looked it up and it's not as bad as you make it sound.

First off, you're supposed to be 19th level, not 17th. Second, you only have to give up all your equipment if you pretend to be slaves. If you make a Diplomacy or Bluff check (or fight off a dozen Glabrezus), then you only have to give up (or leave behind) your armor and clothes but can specifically keep wearing all other magical items.

[Alleran]

I looked it up and it's not as bad as you make it sound.

First off, you're supposed to be 19th level, not 17th.
Really? Still 9ths, but as I said, it's been a while.

[Kazyan]

How would you go about sneaking your stuff in?

Store all your stuff in a Ring of Arming + hide ring in your hair or something. AFB, but I think the ring works like that.

[Zombulian]

How would you go about sneaking your stuff in?

Get storage compartments in a shield, store your items in a Ring of Arming, put the ring in the shield, Absorb Weapon on the shield.

[Story]

You don't really need to sneak anything in though. You can bring in everything except armor, and you probably won't be able to put on the armor once your inside without getting attacked anyway.

[Zombulian]

You don't really need to sneak anything in though. You can bring in everything except armor, and you probably won't be able to put on the armor once your inside without getting attacked anyway.

Yeah but this way is suuuuper sneaky.