help me build a leader druid! AKA green/white deck is me!

[Dimers]

In the Recruitment area, a DM is putting together a game for 4-6 centered on the Leadership feat -- everybody gets it early and free.

I've been reading about VoP druids and about the trouble of crunch not supporting fluff, and, well, I don't know how to build a VoP druid so that the crunch meets the fluff. :smalltongue: Help!

I don't mind optimization but I won't actually use any cheese. I'm looking for ideas on what could be done in this situation, what's useful, where my weaknesses might lie, what other people would find fun to play ... anything relevant to leader VoP druids.

My followers might be awakened animals, hengeyokai, lycanthropes, anthropomorphic animals, maybe fey or elementals. Beyond that, I really don't have a clue. I don't know much about druid spells, animal companion options (including celestial companions), ACFs, good stat arrays or races, wildshape options, what a druid can do besides wildshape because that won't have a lot of impact in this world-spanning game ...

Starts at 3rd level with all the players having Leadership, 36 point-buy. "All WotC official books. Please ask about Dragon, 3rd Party, and Homebrew material before making a character."

Hit me! :biggrin:

[Psyren]

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940.0) should help you with the spells, ACFs, animal companions, wildshape options and stat arrays.

As far as Leadership and VoP, afraid I can't help there.

[Talya]

Rich Burlew had a fey druid variant on this site that cast based on charisma (which should help a great deal with Leadership.) It shouldn't have used a feat though...it should be an ACF.

Your cohort should probably be for utility, you have the raw power. perhaps Go wizard for all the spells you might want that you can't replicate as a druid.

I'm currently playing a fey druid with vow of poverty (but not leadership) in a campaign. She is here:
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=47777

[Dimers]

EDIT: Does anyone have a link for a VoP fix they particularly enjoy? Not that a druid should really need it, but hey, can't hurt to look.


Rich Burlew had a fey druid variant on this site that cast based on charisma (which should help a great deal with Leadership.) It shouldn't have used a feat though...it should be an ACF.

What would you recommend trading for it, if you were writing it yourself? Just an even switch, Wis for Cha, or should the druid lose some class feature?


I'm currently playing a fey druid with vow of poverty (but not leadership) in a campaign. She is here:
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=47777

Thanks!


This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940.0) should help you with the spells, ACFs, animal companions, wildshape options and stat arrays.

Infodump! An excellent place to start. :smallsmile:

[Talya]

What would you recommend trading for it, if you were writing it yourself? Just an even switch, Wis for Cha, or should the druid lose some class feature?


It's an even switch, except rich's variant means other druids can resist your spells easier (resist nature's lure).

[Dimers]

Okay, I've identified one thing I want that I know no mechanics for at 3rd level (and not much support for above that, either). This druid should be listening to the whispers of animals and spirits worldwide, and thus have a better chance at being aware of people and events far away. I'm thinking something like adding Leadership score to relevant Knowledge skill checks, and having justification for making those checks without any other way of learning the info. Basing it on Leadership would make the benefit stronger the more followers I have feeding me information.

If we can come up with something good, I'll also suggest this to the other players -- I bet the guy designing a spymaster would really dig it too.

[Ziegander]

Hey guys, I'm the DM.


Okay, I've identified one thing I want that I know no mechanics for at 3rd level (and not much support for above that, either). This druid should be listening to the whispers of animals and spirits worldwide, and thus have a better chance at being aware of people and events far away. I'm thinking something like adding Leadership score to relevant Knowledge skill checks, and having justification for making those checks without any other way of learning the info. Basing it on Leadership would make the benefit stronger the more followers I have feeding me information.

If we can come up with something good, I'll also suggest this to the other players -- I bet the guy designing a spymaster would really dig it too.

Remember, I'm into homebrew. This sounds like a good concept for a feat, I'd say. Basically, it seems like you'd gain a variant version of Bardic Knowledge, based on your Leadership score. 1d20 + Leadership score to make a sort of "random-knowledge" check?

Of course, as a Druid you have all sorts of spells tailor made for this sort of thing. Animal Messenger for instance lasts one day/level. Depending on the bird, this can be hundreds of miles of travel per day. That's a decent start for a knowledge radius.

[Talya]

If he does this, you need to have a badger pop its head above ground, look at the druid, and say, "News from the underground!"

[eggynack]

Well, first off, if you're going exalted anyway, one of the few good druidic prestige classes, lion of Talisid, is hanging out in the same book. The prerequisites are pretty trivial here.

Anyway, on to spells. Spells are what a druid is. His life and breath, heart and soul. You're going to want good ones. Cause you're at third level, it's pretty easy to list most of the good ones. Let's start with zeroth's, because they are oft overlooked. You're going to want detect magic, and quite a bit of it, because it's a powerful effect, and one you're unlikely to replicate with higher level spells. After that, some cure minor wounds is a good idea, largely for stabilization purposes, and create water has a bunch of uses. That's mostly it, really, though dawn (SpC, 59) is kinda neat, mostly because of the low action cost.

Next, on to firsts. The best spells of this level are battlefield control, with the two best being entangle, and impeding stones (City, 66). There's also obscuring mist, spore field (CS, 104), and wall of smoke (SpC, 235) which all have some use from a BFC perspective. Past that, you have produce flame as the best offensive spell, omen of peril (SpC, 149) as a good divination, and goodberry for down time. You can't go too far off course with a list full of entangle and impeding stones, but variety is nice too.

Finally, because there's not much to look at, on to second level spells. Starting off, mass snake's swiftness (SpC, 193) seems utterly ridiculous with the amount of bodies hanging around. It was great already, but with cohorts, and followers, and who knows what else, it's gotta be one of the best things you could be doing. After that, blinding spittle (SpC, 32) and kelpstrand (SpC, 128) are best in class debuffs, and luminous armor (BoED, 102) is one of the best defensive buffs you have. Remember to pack a lesser restoration every so often, so as to mitigate the strength damage. Splinterbolt (SpC, 203) is the best blasting spell of the level, with just about all of the unstoppability of an orb. It gets better when you get high dex wild shape forms (desmodu hunting bat, mostly), but it's good before then too. So, yeah. That seems like a good place to start.

[eggynack]

Okay, I've identified one thing I want that I know no mechanics for at 3rd level (and not much support for above that, either). This druid should be listening to the whispers of animals and spirits worldwide, and thus have a better chance at being aware of people and events far away. I'm thinking something like adding Leadership score to relevant Knowledge skill checks, and having justification for making those checks without any other way of learning the info. Basing it on Leadership would make the benefit stronger the more followers I have feeding me information.

If we can come up with something good, I'll also suggest this to the other players -- I bet the guy designing a spymaster would really dig it too.
I don't know a way to do that exact thing, but druids have some solid ways to turn magic and leadership into a global spy network. Starting from early levels, because that's where you are, the spell whispering flame (5N, 155) lets you effectively maintain communication for days out of a second level slot. You probably need to set a time of day to communicate, because the candles only work for 8 hours total, and you need to prep the communication system beforehand, but it's good for a second level spell.

At third level, the spells forest eyes and forest voice (CC, 121-122) can let you communicate through plants in a way which doesn't require as much prior preparation. My favorite spell for this purpose, however, is the third level spell whispering sand (Sand, 128). Whispering sand lets you maintain communication with several people at a time, for 10 minutes/level, and all it requires is that the targets all have some sand prepared for the purpose. You could pretty easily set up some sort of druidic telecommunications network with that spell, which seems to be approximately what you want to do. I don't know if I can pull off something as specific as gaining spirit knowledge through leadership, but working out how to get regular knowledge through leadership is much easier.

[Psyren]

If he does this, you need to have a badger pop its head above ground, look at the druid, and say, "News from the underground!"

As long as he doesn't go listening to Fox News (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) :smalltongue:

[Dimers]

If he does this, you need to have a badger pop its head above ground, look at the druid, and say, "News from the underground!"

Auughhlllch ... That was great :smallbiggrin:


mass snake's swiftness (SpC, 193) seems utterly ridiculous with the amount of bodies hanging around.

Aw hell yeah!


luminous armor (BoED, 102) is one of the best defensive buffs you have.

Whoah, I didn't realize that the VoP armor bonus was "exalted" type. I thought it was just an "armor" bonus. That's a very nice combination, yeah.

[Aethir]

Whoah, I didn't realize that the VoP armor bonus was "exalted" type. I thought it was just an "armor" bonus. That's a very nice combination, yeah.

It's actually a pretty bad combination, or at least not one bit better than the spell usually is, because the exalted bonus granted by VoP expressly does not stack with an armor bonus, it overlaps. (Per the entry for it on page 30)

[eggynack]

It's actually a pretty bad combination, or at least not one bit better than the spell usually is, because the exalted bonus granted by VoP expressly does not stack with an armor bonus, it overlaps. (Per the entry for it on page 30)
Wow, that kinda sucks. It's like, the more I learn about VoP, the less I wish I knew about it.

[Norin]

How about initiate of nature feat if you want to "lead" a bunch of (not summoned) animals?

[Dimers]

How about initiate of nature feat if you want to "lead" a bunch of (not summoned) animals?

Considering it, yes. Good is not necessarily Nice, and sometimes being a pack leader means showing dominance, so rebuking isn't a RP problem. Starting at third level and spending feats to get Vow of Poverty, though. I might have just one feat to spend beyond the blindingly obvious choices. Wild Cohort sounds good too ...

Also, since the DM appreciates good homebrew, I'm trying to figure out a way to homebrew a packmaster benefit for Words Of Creation, which might end up influencing my feat choices even more. I should probably put that on hold until I get the basics down, huh? :smalltongue:

[Dimers]

Question: how can a druid increase her caster level without any items and without an evil or questionable act?

[Coidzor]

As far as feats go, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is always good(better than Beastmaster as anything other than a 1 level dip anyway), and Companion Spellbond might be of interest if you're not going to be riding your Animal Companion.

Shameless plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311204) for homebrew in progress that might be of interest for a leadership-focused druid that wants to play with Incarnum and share it with their animal companion.

Also, JaronK's treatise on Leadership Mechanics in D&D (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9963.0) may be of interest.


It's actually a pretty bad combination, or at least not one bit better than the spell usually is, because the exalted bonus granted by VoP expressly does not stack with an armor bonus, it overlaps. (Per the entry for it on page 30)

IIRC, there's at least a penalty that luminous armor and greater luminous armor apply to people who make melee attacks against one's self that would still be worth the lower level variant at higher levels as an hours per level spell.

[Dimers]

As far as feats go, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is always good (better than Beastmaster as anything other than a 1 level dip anyway)

I'll take both, naturally :smallsmile:

New information: I may take ANY feat as a bonus exalted feat from Vow of Poverty (still have to qualify in other ways, of course). So I can do a lot more with the feat suggestions.


Shameless plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311204) for homebrew in progress that might be of interest for a leadership-focused druid that wants to play with Incarnum and share it with their animal companion.

Sounds like a marvy idea, but I'm in over my head with just the VoP and druid stuff, and I know even less about incarnum than about those. I just don't have the time to learn it at this point.


Also, JaronK's treatise on Leadership Mechanics in D&D (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9963.0) may be of interest.

Whoah. Very much so, yes. Thanks for the link, Coidzor.


IIRC, there's at least a penalty that luminous armor and greater luminous armor apply to people who make melee attacks against one's self that would still be worth the lower level variant at higher levels as an hours per level spell.

No question, it's still a great option, just not any greater than it'd be for any other unarmored person.

[eggynack]

I'll take both, naturally :smallsmile:

You should probably avoid beastmaster, because it's pretty bad. Natural bond (CAdv, 111) does the same thing without costing you a caster level and a level of wild shape advancement. The fact that they both cost a feat is a thing as well. For feats, I've always been partial to summoning builds. That generally means either rashemi elemental (UE, 45) or greenbound (LEoF, 8) summoning, as well as ashbound summoning (ECS, 50), and augment summoning. Past that, companion spellbond (PHB II, 77) is good for animal companion stuff, if you already have natural bond, and extend is probably the best druidic metamagic, because of the druid's propensity for casting hours/level buffs. Also, if you pick up exalted companion, you'll be able to have your animal companion pick up vow of poverty as one of its feats, so that's pretty crazy.

[Dimers]

Update!

I'm a lesser aasimar, and I'm definitely playing up the divine angle, in fluff if not necessarily mechanics. I glow in the dark, so I'm basically unable to hide or disguise myself (homebrew flaw). I'm such a shining beacon, spells that should protect me from divination don't work.

I now have the equivalent of bardic knowledge at +19 because it's based on my Leadership score -- animals and plants and spirits tell me stuff. I also intend to use the spells y'all have mentioned to help me gather intel and pass along my orders.

I traded in wildshape to get speed/defense/tracking/favored enemy, though I might get some wildshape back later if I continue into Lion of Talisid.

I have about eighty 1st-level followers, one 1st-level cohort, and a normal animal companion. My Leadership score is high enough for higher-level followers, but the DM (very sensibly) imposed a cap of level-2. As I level up, one of those followers will be fluffed as the fey from whom I get Nymph's Kiss. Haven't picked up Wild Cohort yet.

I may be near a source of lots of aberrations -- it's hinted but not stated. Is there any special way druids or exalted people interact with aberrations?

What spells would be most useful day-to-day, if I'm not expecting combat?

Between Cha, Nymph's Kiss and synergy from Handle Animal, I already have +11 wild empathy, and I could possibly pick up more with the Animal Friend exalted feat. Is there any way to leverage wild empathy, like feats that let it apply to other kinds of creatures? I feel like I've seen that somewhere but I can't find it now.

My followers will be various woodland and wild and fey sorts, possibly with a few aberrations thrown in. I'd take holy-themed creatures too, but I've seen so few of those at a low level. Right now my DM isn't sure whether to call a follower "1st level" based on just HD, or CR, or something else -- animals have serious disadvantages (like no hands) and major advantages (like movement modes), and a lot of fey are overpowered counting by HD. So I'm happy to hear suggestions on low-ish level critters, which might or might not end up as 1st-level followers.

[eggynack]

I may be near a source of lots of aberrations -- it's hinted but not stated. Is there any special way druids or exalted people interact with aberrations?
Yeah, there're a couple. I've only been able to find ones from lords of madness so far, and they're detect abberation and invoke the cerulean sign at second level, and nature's purity at third level. Invoke seems pretty decent for a second level spell, though probably not the best thing ever. I don't really remember any other ones though.


What spells would be most useful day-to-day, if I'm not expecting combat?
Out of spells with long term effects that you'd want to cast during downtime, you have goodberry, which can save you some free healing for when you are expecting combat, whispering flame, which I've mentioned, and lesser restoration, so that you can heal up whatever ability damage you've incurred through sanctified spell usage. There's also the set of reasonable utility spells, if that's more what you're looking for. For that kinda list, there's omen of peril (SpC, 149), which is pretty solidly your best divination at this level, spider hand (BoVD, 104), which makes for a great scouting spell (and is non-evil, despite its source), and gust of wind, which has some reasonable utility uses.


Between Cha, Nymph's Kiss and synergy from Handle Animal, I already have +11 wild empathy, and I could possibly pick up more with the Animal Friend exalted feat. Is there any way to leverage wild empathy, like feats that let it apply to other kinds of creatures? I feel like I've seen that somewhere but I can't find it now.
I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16002049) is probably what you're looking for.

[Darrin]

I may be near a source of lots of aberrations -- it's hinted but not stated. Is there any special way druids or exalted people interact with aberrations?


Check out the Rootwalker ACF in Dungeonscape. At 4th level, you get +4 on saves from aberration SLAs.

There's a bunch of anti-aberration stuff in Eberron for the Gatekeeper druids. In the Eberron Campaign Setting, there's a detect aberration spell that's similar to the one in Lords of Madness, but 1st level instead of 2nd. The LoM version detects lingering auras, though. The Gatekeeper Mystagogue PrC in the Player's Guide to Eberron might also be worth a look.

In LoM, the Abolisher PrC looks tailor-made for druids, with Keeper of the Cerulean Sign a close second.

From the MIC, might want to grab an Enemy Spirit Pouch keyed to Aberrations (2100 GP), and a Githborn Talisman (1800 GP). If a lot of the aberrations are extraplanar, consider getting a weapon made out of Starmetal (Complete Arcane p. 141): same properties as adamantine, but does +1d6 damage to extraplanar creatures.

As far as spells go... looking at my standard Druidzilla advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12183941&postcount=4):

1st:

Instant of Power (Forge of War) should be carried as a wand in a wand chamber at all times. Immediate action, +4 enhancement bonus to any attack, save, or damage roll.

Aspect of the Wolf (Spell Compendium), Aquatic Escape (Complete Scoundrel), and Winged Watcher (Complete Scoundrel) offer some useful animal forms.

Wood Wose (Spell Compendium) does pretty much everything unseen servant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8235936&postcount=8) can do.

Big fan of Conjure Ice Beast (Frostfell), which offers access to every creature from the summon monster and summon nature's ally list + a small menu of special attacks.

Blockade is another good one for a wand. Never know when you're going to need a good "I've got wood" joke.

Spider Hand (Book of Vile Darkness) makes for an interesting scout/spy, and is one of the few ways a druid can create webs.

2nd:

Not quite so many interesting spells here, but I've always been fond of Spider Climb.

Most of the standard Buffs are all here: Bear/Bull/Cat/Owl (but not Fox or Eagle? Hmph).

Embrance the Wild (Spell Compendium) if you need blindsense 30'.

Burrow (Spell Compendium) can be an interesting game-changer if your DM didn't anticipate it and you don't have your dire badgers and thoqquas available yet. You may still get some grief from the DM on this one, though: doesn't work on solid stone, and doesn't say that it leaves a tunnel.

Master Air (Spell Compendium) gets you a fly speed of 90' for a short duration. Sucks compared to alter self, but it's there.

Share Husk (Spell Compendium) could be extremely nifty with the right animal.

[eggynack]

As far as spells go... looking at my standard Druidzilla advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12183941&postcount=4):

That's a pretty fancy list. It's even got a couple that I've been missing, though that'll probably be less true at some future point. However, you have an error, and a thing I disagree with on there. The error is that you list haze of smoldering stone as granting a bonus just for knowing it, and that other spells in the book have that effect as well, but that's only true for casters with a spells known list. Casters who prepare spells don't get crazy free bonuses.

The thing I disagree with is the idea that flesh to salt is amazing. It seems that way at first glance, but you have to deal over half the target's current HP in damage to get the save or die effect, and the damage is really low. Thus, you're trading off consistency on the save or die effect for the consistency of damage, and I'm not sure that it's such a good trade. When you first get the spell, you're getting like 14 damage, and at that damage rate you either need to weaken the opponent first, which kinda defeats the purpose of an SoL, or face a weak opponent, which kinda defeats the purpose of an SoL. For 5th level spells, I think that baleful polymorph, or the less commonly discussed dire hunger (SpC, 65) make for better fortitude based SoL's. Also, at 6th level, you get mummify (Sand, 118), which I think fills the save or die, and suck no matter what slot better.

Edit: Also, boreal wind (Frost, 89) is definitely the best 4th level blasting spell. It just has so many applications, and the fact that one of those applications is reasonable damage in a huge area is a good thing.

[Darrin]

However, you have an error, and a thing I disagree with on there. The error is that you list haze of smoldering stone as granting a bonus just for knowing it, and that other spells in the book have that effect as well, but that's only true for casters with a spells known list. Casters who prepare spells don't get crazy free bonuses.


The text from Dragon magic doesn't mention prepared or spontaneous casting at all:

"A character who learns this spell gains resistance to fire 3..."

Wizards can also learn spells. PHB p. 56: "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level".

You may have a point with clerics and druids, which automatically "know" (and thus "learn") every spell on their spell list as soon as they can cast them. However, I can't find any language in the core rules that defines "learning a spell" as a mechanic unique to spontaneous or arcane casters.

As a DM, you may rule that way, and even feel strongly enough about it to argue that others should do so as well. But I can't find any RAW (Rules As Written) support that clerics/druids don't "learn" new spells when the level up and get access to more spells.



The thing I disagree with is the idea that flesh to salt is amazing. It seems that way at first glance, but you have to deal over half the target's current HP in damage to get the save or die effect, and the damage is really low.


This is a good point, and I probably should have said the spell makes a great "finishing move" after softening up a larger creature (such as extract water elemental), but as a first-round SoL against a fresh opponent, it's not a very good "I Win" button, as you're unlikely to get enough damage to trigger the Fort save vs. petrify. However, even if you don't get the SoL off, the spell still does untyped Xd6 damage with no save, whereas a failed SoL/SoD like flesh to stone or baleful polymorph generally leaves the target just as strong as it was before you cast the spell. The spell also offers two features that flesh to stone doesn't do: the target's equipment is still intact, and you can sell the salt as a trade good.



For 5th level spells, I think that baleful polymorph, or the less commonly discussed dire hunger (SpC, 65) make for better fortitude based SoL's. Also, at 6th level, you get mummify (Sand, 118), which I think fills the save or die, and suck no matter what slot better.

Edit: Also, boreal wind (Frost, 89) is definitely the best 4th level blasting spell. It just has so many applications, and the fact that one of those applications is reasonable damage in a huge area is a good thing.

Thank you for the suggestions! I am considering adding dire hunger and mummify.

I'm still looking at boreal wind... it's like gust of wind, only useful! I was hoping for a little more "oomph" from a 4th level spell. Xd4/CL (max 15) with a Fort negates is a little underwhelming damagewise, but on the other hand it's a 20' wide area effect that lasts several rounds and can be redirected with a move action. I think that warrants adding it to my list.

[eggynack]

The text from Dragon magic doesn't mention prepared or spontaneous casting at all:

"A character who learns this spell gains resistance to fire 3..."

Wizards can also learn spells. PHB p. 56: "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level".

You may have a point with clerics and druids, which automatically "know" (and thus "learn") every spell on their spell list as soon as they can cast them. However, I can't find any language in the core rules that defines "learning a spell" as a mechanic unique to spontaneous or arcane casters.

As a DM, you may rule that way, and even feel strongly enough about it to argue that others should do so as well. But I can't find any RAW (Rules As Written) support that clerics/druids don't "learn" new spells when the level up and get access to more spells.
It's not a ruling, actually. Check out the second paragraph on page 60, and it's pretty explicit. Probably should have cited my source on that one. I'm usually so good about that stuff, too. :smallbiggrin:


This is a good point, and I probably should have said the spell makes a great "finishing move" after softening up a larger creature (such as extract water elemental), but as a first-round SoL against a fresh opponent, it's not a very good "I Win" button, as you're unlikely to get enough damage to trigger the Fort save vs. petrify. However, even if you don't get the SoL off, the spell still does untyped Xd6 damage with no save, whereas a failed SoL/SoD like flesh to stone or baleful polymorph generally leaves the target just as strong as it was before you cast the spell. The spell also offers two features that flesh to stone doesn't do: the target's equipment is still intact, and you can sell the salt as a trade good.
The spell would be really good if it did Xd6 untyped damage with no save, especially because that'd have a good chance of triggering the save. Unfortunately, it only does 1d6/2 levels, which isn't much damage at all. I mean, sure, that's technically still Xd6, but in practice it's a lot less. Practically a little over Xd3 or so. Ultimately, what you're left with is a below par damage effect tied to a below par save or die effect, when I'd really rather be getting a good version of one or the other. Alternatively, I wonder if call avalanche's burying effect qualifies as a save or lose. I've never found the way you stop being buried, but it's gotta be somewhere.



Thank you for the suggestions! I am considering adding dire hunger and mummify.
Dire hunger is a pretty sweet one that I've never seen mentioned. It's basically baleful polymorph with some minor advantages and disadvantages, if you think about it.


I'm still looking at boreal wind... it's like gust of wind, only useful! I was hoping for a little more "oomph" from a 4th level spell. Xd4/CL (max 15) with a Fort negates is a little underwhelming damagewise, but on the other hand it's a 20' wide area effect that lasts several rounds and can be redirected with a move action. I think that warrants adding it to my list.

It's really less about the damage, and more about the fact that you're doing damage while simultaneously controlling the battlefield, and filling one of your utility slots at the same time. There's a lot of competition for the wind slot though, and boreal only covers the gust half of the wind equation. There're just so many awesome wind spells that it's ridiculous (gust of wind, favorable wind, wind's favor, boreal wind, wind wall, eye of the hurricane, passage of the shifting sands, control winds, and sandstorm are the ones I've found worth mentioning).

[Darrin]

It's not a ruling, actually. Check out the second paragraph on page 60, and it's pretty explicit. Probably should have cited my source on that one. I'm usually so good about that stuff, too. :smallbiggrin:


Better than I am, apparently, because you're entirely correct, it's right there in black-and-white. Ok, haze of smoldering stone is off the list.



The spell would be really good if it did Xd6 untyped damage with no save, especially because that'd have a good chance of triggering the save. Unfortunately, it only does 1d6/2 levels, which isn't much damage at all. I mean, sure, that's technically still Xd6, but in practice it's a lot less.


I considered it the equivalent of a Xd6/CL spell that offers a "Ref save for half". Compared to a 20th level lightning bolt, you get 20d6 damage but a successful Ref save cuts that to the equivalent of 10d6. A 20th level flesh to salt would do 10d6 damage, no save, it's untyped, and Evasion does diddly-squat for you. If your target already has a good Ref save or various energy resistances, you might be better off with flesh to salt.

But you've got a good point: if you want direct damage, there are better spells. If you want SoD/SoL, there are better spells. Heck, if all you want is to sell the salt for GP, wall of salt does that better. So... I'm reconsidering, but I may keep it on there just for the humiliation-factor ("Not only are you dead, we get to keep your equipment, and sell your body as loot!")



Alternatively, I wonder if call avalanche's burying effect qualifies as a save or lose. I've never found the way you stop being buried, but it's gotta be somewhere.


I'm not sure I follow you. You avoid being buried by making a Ref save.



Dire hunger is a pretty sweet one that I've never seen mentioned. It's basically baleful polymorph with some minor advantages and disadvantages, if you think about it.


I think of it as more of a charm/dominate monster type thing, but with the added benefit that it's not an enchantment or [mind-affecting] effect.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure I follow you. You avoid being buried by making a Ref save.
What I meant was, I dunno what happens to a person when they fail their save. I checked the rules for avalanches, and it mentions that being buried deals damage that starts non-lethal and grows lethal, but I can't find any mention of what being buried does to you. Are you just completely stuck there until you're freed? Can you just walk right out of an avalanche? What you're left with is a spell that might be pure damage, might be a straight up save or lose that hits a massive area (in which case, holy crap), or it might hang out somewhere in between. There're rules for traversing deep snow, bu they don't seem to apply.


I think of it as more of a charm/dominate monster type thing, but with the added benefit that it's not an enchantment or [mind-affecting] effect.
I can definitely see that use of the effect, but the bite attack is a bit underwhelming, and the potential for the guy attacking you is too high for me to consider the spell a straight up side switch. It's close, and just having a body interfering with the enemy is great, but you're not really dominating. It might look more like a straight domination on a more beat your face type enemy, though in that case their fort save is probably high, and I'd rather have a will save or die like hibernate (Frost, 97), or maybe sleep mote (Sand, 121) if we're talking about a medium sized beat stick. Also, my druid knowledge shall soon encompass all of existence. The spell section of my mighty druid project is hanging out at 19,108 words, and that's not including my cool little section on sanctified and corrupt spells.

[Darrin]

What I meant was, I dunno what happens to a person when they fail their save. I checked the rules for avalanches, and it mentions that being buried deals damage that starts non-lethal and grows lethal, but I can't find any mention of what being buried does to you. Are you just completely stuck there until you're freed? Can you just walk right out of an avalanche?


The DMG describes what happens with Cave-Ins and Collapses on page 66. The 1d6 nonlethal damage per round comes from there. However, the rules never explicitly state what a "buried" creature can or can't do... probably because the designers thought the effects were obvious, but this falls into the "healing by drowning" or "I can still act because the 'dead' condition isn't really defined" area of the rules. Presumably, a buried character is immobilized and helpless, but could probably still take mental actions (psionics FTW).



Also, my druid knowledge shall soon encompass all of existence. The spell section of my mighty druid project is hanging out at 19,108 words, and that's not including my cool little section on sanctified and corrupt spells.

I wish to bask in your glory. Handbook link?

[eggynack]

I wish to bask in your glory. Handbook link?
It's currently hanging out in an incomplete google docs format, but I can PM that to you if you like. The whole thing's hanging out at 35,598 words right now, though it's expanding in size on a daily basis.

[eggynack]

The DMG describes what happens with Cave-Ins and Collapses on page 66. The 1d6 nonlethal damage per round comes from there. However, the rules never explicitly state what a "buried" creature can or can't do... probably because the designers thought the effects were obvious, but this falls into the "healing by drowning" or "I can still act because the 'dead' condition isn't really defined" area of the rules. Presumably, a buried character is immobilized and helpless, but could probably still take mental actions (psionics FTW).
Yeah, that seems to be how it works. It does say that you can free yourself with a DC 25 strength check in the cave in section, but it's a bit unclear if the freed character just leaps bodily out of the rubble, or needs to spend the same amount of time working as a character on the outside. My logic brain says the latter, and that means that the enemy is out of combat for at least a minute.

Even in the worse possible scenario for call avalanche, which is that it follows cave in rules to the letter, and has the trapped guy able to free himself completely in a round, the spell still seems crazy powerful. It's basically a save or lose that hits several enemies at once (the radius frigging scales), deals unconditional damage, doesn't touch SR at all, has its effect based on a reflex save (you don't get many of those on an effect like this), and can last forever. It's size limited, and only works outside, but those aren't the biggest problems in the world. The real problem is how weird and shrouded in mystery its main effect is. Your evaluation seems like a correct one, but the RAW is still wonky, and the mystery lurks around every corner.

[Dimers]

Thanks for all the help, guys. Very useful -- and I'd love a link to that guide as well, eggynack. I found yet another question, though ...

The DM will allow me to pick my animal companion's feats if I make the creature intelligent somehow. I could take Exalted Companion as my exalted feat at next level-up, applying the celestial template to my riding dog (and one level later to its dire bat replacement). In addition to the Int score, the critter gets d10 HDs, elemental resistances and full base attack, none of which suck (and SR, which kinda does). So the Exalted Companion feat wouldn't do anything for the rest of my team but it'd be so good for my companion it's worth considering.

So the question is -- Any suggestions on feat and skill choices for the animal companion? Vow of Poverty seems like a good move considering my own lack of funds, but there could be something much better, I just don't know. And then of course there's flavor choices, too. What would a celestial dire bat want out of life?

[Darrin]

So the question is -- Any suggestions on feat and skill choices for the animal companion? Vow of Poverty seems like a good move considering my own lack of funds, but there could be something much better, I just don't know. And then of course there's flavor choices, too. What would a celestial dire bat want out of life?

Flyby Attack to start with. Hover and Wingover might also be nice. Maybe Air Heritage (Planar Handbook) or Wing Expert (Races of the Dragon).

[Coidzor]

Thanks for all the help, guys. Very useful -- and I'd love a link to that guide as well, eggynack. I found yet another question, though ...

The DM will allow me to pick my animal companion's feats if I make the creature intelligent somehow. I could take Exalted Companion as my exalted feat at next level-up, applying the celestial template to my riding dog (and one level later to its dire bat replacement). In addition to the Int score, the critter gets d10 HDs, elemental resistances and full base attack, none of which suck (and SR, which kinda does). So the Exalted Companion feat wouldn't do anything for the rest of my team but it'd be so good for my companion it's worth considering.

So the question is -- Any suggestions on feat and skill choices for the animal companion? Vow of Poverty seems like a good move considering my own lack of funds, but there could be something much better, I just don't know. And then of course there's flavor choices, too. What would a celestial dire bat want out of life?

If you're broke then you want your AC taking VoP too, or at least that's my understanding. Touch of Golden Ice isn't great but it is decent on a natural weapons build if your AC has several natural attacks.

Skill wise... Spot and Listen are obligatory, I suppose you could use the AC to take care of the Survival skill and maybe even tracking as well? I don't see even an Exalted Companion becoming a Diplomancer though. UMD is always good, I suppose, though I can't think of any ways for an Animal Companion to get better than half-ranks in the skill.

[Just to Browse]

Ziegander is the DM, so you should probably be a fighter. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

If you're broke then you want your AC taking VoP too, or at least that's my understanding. Touch of Golden Ice isn't great but it is decent on a natural weapons build if your AC has several natural attacks.

Honestly, if it's an available option, VoP is probably the best choice for the animal companion, even if you do have the cash to outfit it. I mean, what are you really going to be doing with an animal companion that you need to layer it with money for? If VoP is roughly equivalent in value to WBL, and it kinda is, then putting VoP on the animal companion is like doubling your wealth. It's approximately infinitely better if you can't outfit the AC anyway, because there really aren't many feats in the game with as much value added as VoP if there's no WBL cost associated with it.

[Ruethgar]

Try for the optothorp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822) to execute the hive mind at least. That would get you a decent network of scouts. You or your followers could be anthropomorphic murders of crows. They have good stats for a druid, -6 str, +2 dex, +6 wisdom. If you wanted to go with a storm druid(a dragon variant but one that actually weakens the class) you could focus on casting and be Mr. Stormcrow with literally swarms of scouts sending out conjured birds and telepathically communicating back to you. A were-raven might be more acceptable than an anthro murder, but LA hurts and you would have to ask your DM how a partial HD would add and you would have to be small.

If you try for the fey druid, Magic Blooded is a great template, -2 wisdom +2 charisma.

As to the AC improvements, totem druid is a powerful option, focused animal being the weaker version. Wild cohort can theoretically stack with AC and beast master is a good 1-level dip. VoP is awesome for an AC. Hidden talent is a fun one and shape soulmeld is pretty good as well. Martial study and stance can be potent options depending on what you pick.

[danzibr]

Rich Burlew had a fey druid variant on this site that cast based on charisma (which should help a great deal with Leadership.) It shouldn't have used a feat though...it should be an ACF.

Your cohort should probably be for utility, you have the raw power. perhaps Go wizard for all the spells you might want that you can't replicate as a druid.

I'm currently playing a fey druid with vow of poverty (but not leadership) in a campaign. She is here:
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=47777
I'm glad I saw this, if only for becoming aware of thetangledweb.

Neat character, btw.

[Dimers]

I don't see even an Exalted Companion becoming a Diplomancer though.

:smallbiggrin:


UMD is always good, I suppose, though I can't think of any ways for an Animal Companion to get better than half-ranks in the skill.

Moot point -- a VoP character can't even use other people's scrolls and wands. I had to reject UMD for the druid himself even though he has high Charisma and the skill is merged with UPD.


Ziegander is the DM, so you should probably be a fighter. :smalltongue:

I ... I think you're thinking of Pickford?


Try for the optothorp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822) to execute the hive mind at least.

Even if I get nothing out of it for this game, that thread has me cackling and howling! Thanks for the link as well as the suggestions.