How good is this Class (the sequel)

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Spellcaster - Generic Class UA (http://dndtools.eu/classes/spellcaster/)

This class seems to be very good even without messing with it.

If I where to convert it to PF would it be to powerful?

What if I gave it a Spell Tome rather then spell known?

What if I changed the first feat to a Companion or Familiar feature?

[Kudaku]

From what I can remember the generic classes were never meant to be compared to the traditional classes like fighter or wizard - they're a completely separate class system designed around very (very) basic and broad class features to allow many character concepts without getting tied up in the class specifics. Playing UA's generic 'spellcaster' next to, say, a sorcerer will be wildly unbalanced.

That said I don't think porting generic classes to pathfinder should be particularly hard.

As for your specific suggestions:

By spell tome I assume you mean a spellbook function like the witch's familiar or the wizard's spellbook? If anything making this class prepare spells and use a spellbook instead of limiting it to spontaneous casting makes the class more powerful, not less.

A familiar is not quite as good as a free bonus feat (in my opinion) but it's still a viable feature, especially in Pathfinder.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Well unbalanced in which direction?

In favor of the Generic or against?

Remember all the core classes got a power boost in PF.

[Kudaku]

Heavily in favor of generic classes.

The UA version of the 'spellcaster' is an arcane spellcaster who freely chooses what casting ability they rely on (int, wis or cha) with the sorcerer spell progression who gets bonus feats and can freely choose spells from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard list.

Quoting D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) since my UA copy is stored in a loft somewhere:


If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

But otherwise has no class features, a horrible HD, Skills, Skill Points, Stunted progression.

With what I have seen browsing it seems there is a lot more open to the Sorcerer then the Spellcaster.

Should is a recommendation. I doubt the Generic would overwhelm a wizard, cleric, or druid

[Mystral]

Spellcaster is tier 2. High tier 2 of course, but not stronger then a Wizard.

[Kudaku]

I get the feeling that you've already made up your mind. Which is fine, I'm not trying to sell you anything :smallsmile:

However, I would never (ever) allow generic classes and normal class in play together - the optimization potential is far too large.

[DarkSonic1337]

Personally I think in a 3.5+pathfinder game a Human Sorcerer is stronger than a Spellcaster. They get a ton more spells because of favored class bonuses and get the Sorcerer only spells from 3.5 (Wings of Cover and the Arcane Fusions are REALLY REALLY GOOD). And they could cast of Int if they wanted to with an archetype.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Again this is not for me this is for my GF but I am looking into it because I am curious and don't know.

What do you mean by Sorcerer Only spells?
I wasn't aware 3.5 had sorcerer only spells.

Where can they be found?

[DarkSonic1337]

They're not all in one book, there are some in Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon. http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4941.0. Also sorcerers have an archtype that makes them dragonblooded, and being dragon blooded has some nice perks for some 3.5 spells.

The biggest ones imo are

Wings of Cover 2nd-Immediate action spell that provides TOTAL COVER. If you're dragonblooded you can also shield allies with it.

Wings of Flurry 4th-1D6/CL 30-ft.-radius force damage burst with no caster level limit that also dazes. Dragonblooded casts it at +1CL

Arcane Fusion 5th-Cast a 4th level spell and a 1st level spell in the same standard action

Arcane Fusion, Greater 8th-cast a 7th and a 4th level spell.

Some others that I personally like are the "primal_____" series. They're small 24 hour duration buffs that when stacked together give uncanny dodge if you have more than one up (improved uncanny dodge if you have all 4). Out of the 4 I like...

primal instinct! 3rd-+5 competence bonus to initiative and survival checks
primal hunter 2nd-mostly just to combo with primal instinct and get uncanny dodge. +5 competence bonus on Climb, Jump, and Swim checks.


There are also 3.5 alternative class features and racial substitution levels for sorcerer if your DM is okay with using those. A note worthy one is rapid metamagic (lose familiar. Apply metamagic without increasing casting time 3+int times per day).

The extra feats are nice for spellcaster (though PF is a little nicer to sorcerer when it comes to feats), and the extra spell lists are potentially powerful but...honestly the Wiz/Sorc list is already the best spell list in the game, and adding the Cleric and Druid lists on top of it doesn't significantly increase your power as a spontaneous caster (barring things like Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) to learn new spells on the spot).

I'm playing a Spellcaster/Swiftblade in a 3.5 game and honestly most of my spell list are still wizard and sorcerer spells. Sure I'm gonna pick up divine power from the cleric list, and bite of the were tiger from the druid list a level earlier, and maybe grab Flame Blade or Ice Axe instead of wraithstrike, but it's not more powerful than having Wings of Cover and Arcane Fusion to work with.

[visigani]

Why wouldn't a spellcaster have access to those spells?

[eggynack]

Some others that I personally like are the "primal_____" series. They're small 24 hour duration buffs that when stacked together give uncanny dodge if you have more than one up (improved uncanny dodge if you have all 4). Out of the 4 I like...

primal instinct! 3rd-+5 competence bonus to initiative and survival checks
primal hunter 2nd-mostly just to combo with primal instinct and get uncanny dodge. +5 competence bonus on Climb, Jump, and Swim checks
Yeah, primal spells are pretty sweet. I prefer them on a druid though, because spending spells known on completely unspammable 24 hour buffs seems like a waste, while spending spells prepped seems reasonable. Nerveskitter might just be better on a sorcerer, especially because the initiative bonus stacks with a belt of battle. Also, the ten foot blindsense you get if you have the (dragonblood) subtype might make senses worth it. Primal instinct gets you a +5 to a knowledge in that case too, but the other two are absolutely useless reductions in casting time, because it's a 24 hour buff anyways.

[eggynack]

Why wouldn't a spellcaster have access to those spells?
The generic spellcaster pulls off the wizard/sorcerer list. That generally means that they can't access things on the sorcerer list, that aren't on the wizard list.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Well it draws from Wizard/Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric spells. So its likely able to get those spells as well.

[DarkSonic1337]

Why wouldn't a spellcaster have access to those spells?

The same reason that Wizards don't? And the same reason that Beguiler and Warmage can't pick them up with advanced learning?

They are Sorcerer only spells, from the Sorcerer list, not the Wizard/Sorcerer list. They are even listed differently (Sorcerer 2, instead of Wiz/Sorc 2 for wings of cover). iirc Wizards have a couple Wizard only spells too (something about changing out what spells you have prepped).

You'd have to use some ability that lets you grab spells from ANY arcane list, not just the Wiz/Sorc list.

[MirddinEmris]

But otherwise has no class features, a horrible HD, Skills, Skill Points, Stunted progression.

With what I have seen browsing it seems there is a lot more open to the Sorcerer then the Spellcaster.

Should is a recommendation. I doubt the Generic would overwhelm a wizard, cleric, or druid

That's wrong, because the have base Craft, Profession and Knowledge(all) skill list with ability to put here another 4 skills of your choosing and you can freely take Int as your casting stat, meaning that Generic variant will probably have much better skills than Sorcerer. And bonus feats can be taken from Generic feat list ( or just any other feat that you can take ) which actually have some class features, like Evasion, Sneak Attack, Smite and Turn Undead (the list is short and this are probably the best features from it, but still it's a nice things to have). So it's high Tier 2, much better than Sorc but still not so good compared to Triad High (wizard, cleric, druid).


BTW, Rapid Metamagic is a feat (req. Spellcraft 12, so lvl 9 or higher only) that allows spontaneous casters to cast metamagic spells using their "normal" casting time , Sorc has ACF that called Metamagic Specialist that allows him to cast metamagic spells Int mod + 3 time per day without increasing casting time. So, depending on whether Rapind metamagic allows you to cast Quicken Spells, Generic spellcaster can be better than Sorc even there (ha can afford to spend a feat, he got more of them than Sorc). Though sorcerer only spells are really sweet, i wouldn't argue that