PF Wizard Help!

[Xar Zarath]

Hi all, recently I started to join a PF game and decided to go cerebremancer, because I like to. Im doing the wizard/psion (I know about erudite, but for the sake of sanity don't want to go there) and plan to be a generalist (don't want to specialize) and take telepath in psion.

The campaign is supposed to go into epic, though I don't know how far. The thing is I also want to take Archmage for my Wizard and to my mind, with all the levels that im going to take, how do I not end up being so bloated in levels. The plan is...

Wizard 17
Archmage 3 (Mastery Shaping,Elements,Spell Power)
Psion 10
Cerebremancer 10

That's a total of 50 levels! I don't know about you guys but for me that seems a little overboard. How do I cut down on some levels making it more 30-40ish at epic without losing the classes that I want, like Archmage etc

P.S The Wizard levels meant to handle the blasting stuff etc while the Psion helps to control, dominate etc

Thanks!:smallwink:

[Firest Kathon]

You can easily get to 40 by double-checking your math: 17 + 3 + 10 + 10 = 40. Done! :smallcool:

[Craft (Cheese)]

There's nothing wrong with making a build plan that says "Here's what I want my character to look like at level 50, assuming we ever make it that far." Your main concern should be asking "When should I be taking what levels?"

Like, for example, what level are you starting play?

[Psyren]

Cut the Psion levels - you don't need to try and hit 9ths with them because you can just boost your ML and augment lower level powers instead (like Charm and Dominate.)

I assume this is a 3.P game since you're running Archmage (which doesn't exist in PF.)

Use traits and feats to boost your ML. Psionic Knack and Practiced Manifester will get you +6 ML back. You can also use Magical Knack or Practiced Spellcaster on the wizard side but you won't need them.

I would look at something like Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Archmage 4. Then do nothing but Cerebremancer in epic levels. This will get you 9th-level spells, which are much more important to have than 9th-level powers. Since there is no epic Cerebremancer you would use the implied progression of full wizard and full psion advancement with each level. With both Psionic Knack and Practiced Manifester you will only be 1 ML behind your character level.

There's also Mind Mage from Dragon Magazine if that is allowed.

[Xar Zarath]

There's nothing wrong with making a build plan that says "Here's what I want my character to look like at level 50, assuming we ever make it that far." Your main concern should be asking "When should I be taking what levels?"

Like, for example, what level are you starting play?

Well, we plan to start at 10-15, though final say is from DM, the plan is to start between those levels.

I plan to start with full wizard first though until I get 17th.

[Xar Zarath]

Cut the Psion levels - you don't need to try and hit 9ths with them because you can just boost your ML and augment lower level powers instead (like Charm and Dominate.)

I assume this is a 3.P game since you're running Archmage (which doesn't exist in PF.)

Use traits and feats to boost your ML. Psionic Knack and Practiced Manifester will get you +6 ML back. You can also use Magical Knack or Practiced Spellcaster on the wizard side but you won't need them.

I would look at something like Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Archmage 4. Then do nothing but Cerebremancer in epic levels. This will get you 9th-level spells, which are much more important to have than 9th-level powers. Since there is no epic Cerebremancer you would use the implied progression of full wizard and full psion advancement with each level. With both Psionic Knack and Practiced Manifester you will only be 1 ML behind your character level.

There's also Mind Mage from Dragon Magazine if that is allowed.

Yes 3.P, no Dragon Prcs since DM doesn't like to use that much.

How do I go into epic with Cerebremancer? I don't feel comfortable going epic into a prestige class that's already defined. (Maybe because of all the extra work into it):smallredface:

[Xar Zarath]

You can easily get to 40 by double-checking your math: 17 + 3 + 10 + 10 = 40. Done! :smallcool:

Well, Cerebremancer adds 10 levels to both Wizard and Psion, so its:

Wizard 17+3=20+10=30

Psion 10+10=20

Total=50

[Psyren]

Well, Cerebremancer adds 10 levels to both Wizard and Psion, so its:

Wizard 17+3=20+10=30

Psion 10+10=20

Total=50

You'll technically have 50 levels but your CL will only be 30 and your ML will only be 20. If you're going to face CR 50 threats you'll probably be creamed, especially if they have SR/PR.



How do I go into epic with Cerebremancer? I don't feel comfortable going epic into a prestige class that's already defined. (Maybe because of all the extra work into it):smallredface:

The rules are in the SRD. First, you have to hit character level 20:


A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher.

Then you add these two rules:


Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern also continues to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate.


Generally, any class feature that uses class level as part of a mathematical formula continues to increase using the character’s class level in the formula. Any prestige class feature that calculates a save DC using the class level should add only half the character’s class levels above 10th.

[Xar Zarath]

You'll technically have 50 levels but your CL will only be 30 and your ML will only be 20. If you're going to face CR 50 threats you'll probably be creamed, especially if they have SR/PR.

Really? Would it then be better to have pure CL30 or pure ML30?

At epic I thought that with both high CL and max(20) ML I could switch to one or the other in combat...since both have different styles...

[Radar]

Well, Cerebremancer adds 10 levels to both Wizard and Psion, so its:

Wizard 17+3=20+10=30

Psion 10+10=20

Total=50
Let's clear up some confusion here:
1. You character level is the sum of all class levels you took plus any racial HD you have (if any). In your example you took 17 levels of Wizard, 3 levels of Archmage, 10 levels of Psion and 10 levels of Cerebremancer, which is a total of 40 levels.
2. Cerebremancer levels add to both wizard and psion levels, when you calculate your caster/manifester level, spells/powers known, spellslots/power points, so you cast as if you were a 30 level Wizard (17+3+10) and a 20 level Psion (10+10), but it has nothing to do with your character level.

Also important: it would probably be good to go into Cerebremancer as soon as possible. Otherwise, when you start taking levels in Psion while you're epic, it will be rather underwhelming and it will take a lot of levels to make the psionics remotly effective.

[Xar Zarath]

Let's clear up some confusion here:
1. You character level is the sum of all class levels you took plus any racial HD you have (if any). In your example you took 17 levels of Wizard, 3 levels of Archmage, 10 levels of Psion and 10 levels of Cerebremancer, which is a total of 40 levels.
2. Cerebremancer levels add to both wizard and psion levels, when you calculate your caster/manifester level, spells/powers known, spellslots/power points, so you cast as if you were a 30 level Wizard (17+3+10) and a 20 level Psion (10+10), but it has nothing to do with your character level.

Oh...then my character level is 40?

[Radar]

Oh...then my character level is 40?
Yup! I wrote an additional bit of information in my previous post.

[Xar Zarath]

I think I will drop the psion and cerebremancer. While they are great classes what Psyren said about my total CL does bother me, and at epic I may be not up to the challenges that may come.

I intend to stay wizard with some archmage classes rolled in, however I want to run some Prc by you guys and see what you think...

Geometer:Not bad, full casting progression, book of geometry is nice...what do you guys think?

Mindbender: Lets me play the whole mind control bit...any ideas?

Master Transmogrifist: this I added simply because I want to spice it up a bit...

The mindbender and MT only add 5 and 6 to my CL respectively though...

Anyone have any suggestions/comments?

[Radar]

Geometer: better then straight Wizard - at least before epic, since epic Wizard gets a lot of bonus feats. Pass Sigil might come in handy from time to time and Book of Geometry is generaly useful, but the cost of scribing spells is negligible at higher levels.

Mindbender: very often used as a single level dip for the telepathy, which is really useful and not that easy to get. In epic levels, you can go all the way without much harm (if you are concerned with your CL, you can pick Practiced Spellcaster feat, to mitigate the dead levels). Mindreading is an interesting ability, but it's actually weaker then the spell Detect Thoughts - the only advantage you get, is that you can use it covertly, but that can be fixed by Silent Spell and Still Spell. The ability to permanently charm or dominate creatures is quite flavorful, but again the equivalent spell does it better (Dominate Person and Dominate Monster have a duration of day per level). If you like to play mindgames, it won't hurt, but it won't give you many new toys to tinker with.

Master Transmogrifist: quite a lot of the polymorph imporvements are already covered by the spell Shapechange, but it does allow more experiments with Polymorph any Object, which might have its uses. Aside from that, Reflexive Change is quite interesting, since it gives you a panic button to use, when things go really bad. It's a shame, you lose your next action, but with properly chosen favored forms, it won't be that much of a problem (gaseous form would make you immune to a lot of attacks for example). Infinite Variety is really nifty - here sky is not the limit anymore.

[Xar Zarath]

Thanks for the advice:smallbiggrin:

Do you know of any other arcane/spellcasting Prc's that are max 5th level? (Only 5 class level not caster level)

[Radar]

Well, there is for example:
Warweaver: you lose one caster level, but you can cast low level single target spells on your whole party at once. You can even store a few buffs for later use. Really good choice - espacialy if you often use short duration buffs.

Thaumaturgist: no caster levels lost and a few interesting summoning-related abilities gained. You can gain an outsider as a cohort, which is really good and scales well with your level (the cohort doesn't gain levels, but you can swap it for a stronger one later, if you want), you also obtain something called Contingent Conjuration, which works more or less as the Contingency spell, but you can only trigger a summoning spell with it. Any form of Contingency is quite potent and this one is no exception.

Abjurant Champion: again no caster levels lost (yay!). Even if you are not interested in improving your martial prowess, the ability to cast all Abjuration spells as a swift action is worth taking all five levels. The other abilities aren't bad, but pale in comparison.

[Xar Zarath]

[
Thaumaturgist: no caster levels lost and a few interesting summoning-related abilities gained. You can gain an outsider as a cohort, which is really good and scales well with your level (the cohort doesn't gain levels, but you can swap it for a stronger one later, if you want), you also obtain something called Contingent Conjuration, which works more or less as the Contingency spell, but you can only trigger a summoning spell with it. Any form of Contingency is quite potent and this one is no exception

This one looks good but I think its for clerics? How can I get it since I don't have lesser planar ally on my spell list...I don't want to multiclass into cleric (Someone else is and I don't want to move in on their shtick)

[Xar Zarath]

Is there any more 5th level arcane spellcasting prestige classes?

[Radar]

This one looks good but I think its for clerics? How can I get it since I don't have lesser planar ally on my spell list...I don't want to multiclass into cleric (Someone else is and I don't want to move in on their shtick)
I must have missed the requirement. A shame really, because the class would easily fit a wizard. Perhaps you could obtain the spell through Extra Spell feat, but I'm not sure, if it allows you to pick spells outside of your list. You could also obtain the spell through Exalted Arcanist class (also 5 levels long), for which unfortunately you would have to jump through additional hoops due to the spontaneous casting requirement (ususaly fulfilled with Spontaneous Divination ACF, which is useful in its own right).

At any rate, I forgot about Fatespinner (gives limited per day abilities to reroll dice, or change spell DC and related) and Nightmare Spinner (a class specializing in fear spells and has a few nice tricks).