PF Sorcerer/Wizard

[Bakuiel]

Hi, I am creating a Arcane/Abberant Sorcerer for a pathfinder game I'm in which is going to multiclass into wizard eventually. I know ots not optimal but we are going into epic levels and then I will be a level 20 sorcer plus whatever level wizard. So I want to focus mostly on sorcerer. The arcane bloodline means my familiar progresses as if I had one class and I'm half elf and both my favored classes are sorcerer and wizard. My questions are what kind of wizard would work best, and also how many levels of wizard should I take before epic? I'm thinking teo levels of wizard but not sure.

[Spore]

Why do you hate fun? What purpose do the wizard levels hold?

I would suggest the EARLIEST you should take other things than your main caster class is reaching Lv 6 spells. So 12 levels of sorcerer before you take on wizards.

Casters tend to start blooming around level 4-6 spells, so please do yourself a favor and add the wizard levels as late as can be.

[Karoht]

I don't understand the purpose of the Wizard levels. Can you elaborate? What is the benefit of the Wizard levels exactly?

If you want an Int based Sorcerer, take the Sage Archetype with the Arcane Bloodline.

Also, why not multiclass into something that actually gives you something different?
IE-Paladin or Antipaladin both grant you Charisma to saves with a 2 level dip.

[Spore]

If you want somehow to deviate from the classic arcane spell lists, use Empyrial bloodline + Cleric + Mystic Theurge. That is a 3 level hurt on your spell progression as sorcerer, but it gives you variety.

[Bakuiel]

Well the purpose of the wizard levels is twofold, first his mother was a powerful wizard and he wants to emulate her, the second reason is more just for utility spells, that way I can pretty much ignore most of these with the socerers known spells. He also has UMD for the second point but it really was more a roleplay thing.
I see the point on 6th level spells so I'll definately hold on until level 12.

Part of my reasoning with this build is I don't see the point in continuing to progress as a sorcerer once I hit level 20 but I really just want a spellcaster.

[Bakuiel]

If you want somehow to deviate from the classic arcane spell lists, use Empyrial bloodline + Cleric + Mystic Theurge. That is a 3 level hurt on your spell progression as sorcerer, but it gives you variety.

I actually can't change my bloodlines now, the DM already approved them.

[Spore]

You emulate her by being a sorcerer already. What you want, is imitation. Which is cute when a 6 year old does it, but a grown up adventurer? Idk.

[Karoht]

Are you a half elf?
Are you planning on using Paragon Surge to never have to worry about not having a spell to hand?

Paragon Surge-Gives you any feat you qualify for, for 15 minutes.
Paragon Surge to pick up Expanded Arcana. It gives you 2 spells known at any spell level lower than your highest, or 1 at your highest.

If you have 3 metamagic feats, you can Paragon Surge to get Spell Perfection on any spell already on your list, whenever you want.

Ask your Dungeon Master if Paragon Surge is right for you!
*Warning* Side effects of Paragon Surge include but are not limited to:
-Being the swiss army knife/deus ex machina of the party
-Overshadowing the rest of the party
-Overstimulation caused by maximus optionous or 'absurd amounts of options available in a standard action'
-Coughing, sneezing, dry mouth, cancer, erectile disfunction, pnematic pnemonia, liver failure, kidney failure, heart failure, lung failure, kneecap failure
-If you experience feelings of awesomeness that persist for more than 4 hours, consult your DM immediately.

[Bakuiel]

Are you a half elf?
Are you planning on using Paragon Surge to never have to worry about not having a spell to hand?

Paragon Surge-Gives you any feat you qualify for, for 15 minutes.
Paragon Surge to pick up Expanded Arcana. It gives you 2 spells known at any spell level lower than your highest, or 1 at your highest.

If you have 3 metamagic feats, you can Paragon Surge to get Spell Perfection on any spell already on your list, whenever you want.

Ask your Dungeon Master if Paragon Surge is right for you!
*Warning* Side effects of Paragon Surge include but are not limited to:
-Being the swiss army knife/deus ex machina of the party
-Overshadowing the rest of the party
-Overstimulation caused by maximus optionous or 'absurd amounts of options available in a standard action'
-Coughing, sneezing, dry mouth, cancer, erectile disfunction, pnematic pnemonia, liver failure, kidney failure, heart failure, lung failure, kneecap failure
-If you experience feelings of awesomeness that persist for more than 4 hours, consult your DM immediately.

I never heard of paragon surge before, I really like this idea. I think I will make it my next level 3 spell. Its an awsome spell.

I see the points people are making about sorcerer wizard but I don't see any way to progress as an epic spellcaster by staying pure sorcerer. Any ideas on how to progress. One thing I want is to have my familiar gain levels too so as to get familiar spell.

[Karoht]

I never heard of paragon surge before, I really like this idea. I think I will make it my next level 3 spell. Its an awsome spell.

I see the points people are making about sorcerer wizard but I don't see any way to progress as an epic spellcaster by staying pure sorcerer. Any ideas on how to progress. One thing I want is to have my familiar gain levels too so as to get familiar spell.

Going Wizard levels on top of Sorcerer 20 won't get you further spellcasting progression. More Sorcerer levels will, that's sort of how epic works. Or a Prestige Class that advances your spellcasting. Mind you, Pathfinder doesn't really have an epic system (yet), they use the Mythic rules as an optional set of rules.

www.pathfindersrd.com
scroll down until you see Mythic on your left hand side.


As far as your sorcerer trying to emulate a wizard, I still highly recommend the Sage Archetype with the Arcane Bloodline. You could Prestige Class very well into Cypher Mage. Fluff-wise it would great to see mother and child, both highly intellectual, and yet both still approaching magic in completely different ways. The Cypher Mage prestige class benefits strongly from preparation if you have the time, much the way a Wizard does. Check it out, you get some really neat stuff in there, including the ability to add double your Int mod to the DC of a spell you cast via a scroll, in addition to having your caster level +1 when using a scroll. It becomes very worth while to make scrolls.

[Bakuiel]

Yeah I'll ask my DM about going into cyphermage instead, and I'm not sure how he plans to do epic.

[Karoht]

Yeah I'll ask my DM about going into cyphermage instead, and I'm not sure how he plans to do epic.Really really research the prestige class first.
Consider in advance, that your build will probably want Scribe Scroll. You might not need it right away, but you will want it eventually.

[grarrrg]

If you want somehow to deviate from the classic arcane spell lists, use Empyrial bloodline + Cleric + Mystic Theurge. That is a 3 level hurt on your spell progression as sorcerer, but it gives you variety.

As long as it's an Epic game, make that Sorc + Oracle + Mystic Theurge.
Then you don't have to mess with your Bloodlines any, and you're entirely CHA based.

And it doubles the "fun" of Paragon Surge, withOUT resorting to Eldritch Heritage shenanigans.

[ArqArturo]

If you can, take Ultimate Magus from 3.5, if you're still adamant in the Wizard/Sorcerer thing. And, it has to be from the Arcane Bloodline, of the Sage variant.

[cosmicAstrogazr]

If you can, take Ultimate Magus from 3.5, if you're still adamant in the Wizard/Sorcerer thing. And, it has to be from the Arcane Bloodline, of the Sage variant.

I second this; it's really the only way to get any good mileage out of sor/wiz and I say that as someone who has played that combo. Fortunately for me, my DM made the mistake of letting me play an Ultimate Magus, and it was.

Well.

Let's go with fun.

Otherwise, just stick with sorcerer; the hit you take to caster level alone is just not worth it.

[Splendor]

Note - If you played a human instead of a half-elf you could use the human's Alternate Favored Class Option for Sorcerer: "Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast." - Advanced players guide pg 23.

This really opens up your spells known and allows you to have many more utility spells.

[grarrrg]

Note - If you played a human instead of a half-elf you could use the human's Alternate Favored Class Option for Sorcerer:

According to the recent ruling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c), Half-Elves can already take the Human Favored Class bonuses.

[Spore]

According to the recent ruling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c), Half-Elves can already take the Human Favored Class bonuses.

BRB, overpowering my half orc character. :)

[ArqArturo]

According to the recent ruling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c), Half-Elves can already take the Human Favored Class bonuses.

*Looks at the Sorcerer favored class option for humans*

You have got to be EFFING kidding me! This is too much power :smalleek:. Then again, this is coming from a DM's PoV.

[Urpriest]

Yeah I'll ask my DM about going into cyphermage instead, and I'm not sure how he plans to do epic.

You really shouldn't be planning for epic then. Epic can go in a lot of different ways based on the rules in play, given that Pathfinder doesn't have epic rules to begin with. Has your DM said there's even going to be an epic?

Anyway, to emulate a Wizard as a Sorceror without Paragon Surge cheese, I'd recommend picking up a bunch of Pages of Spell Knowledge. They give you access to utility spells, while still being wizardly thematically and meshing well with your Sorceror casting.

[AttilaTheGeek]

As long as it's an Epic game, make that Sorc + Oracle + Mystic Theurge.
Then you don't have to mess with your Bloodlines any, and you're entirely CHA based.

I strongly recommend this build. Even at just 20, you can spontaneously cast more than a hundred different spells. That doesn't even count your Pages of Spell Knowledge, scrolls to cast with your auto-succeed UMD, or Paragon Surge. Personally, I think Paragon Surge is cheese, but your DM may think otherwise. If you play Sorcerer 4 / Oracle 4 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Sorcerer 4, then you're just into epic (22) and can learn Time Stop. You could pick any other spell, but when you can spontaneously cast a hundred different spells I really don't know why you wouldn't want to get more spells per spell. You may be interested in the Oracle's Dark Tapestry mystery if your Sorcerer is Aberrant.