What do you need to start a Pathfinder group?

[McNum]

To make a long story short, me and some other people have been talking about starting up our own RPG group. We could probably be 3-5 people playing, including myself, and I've volunteered to be DM, because I've DM'd in the past, although with room for improvement.

I suggested we pick Pathfinder as our game if we set this up, mostly because we don't have any books and I'm the only one who has played any RPG, in my case D&D 3.5, since I've understood that Pathfinder is sort of 3.5 with some bugfixes and new features. Basically, I should know it already, mostly, so I can help the other players pick it up.

But, what do I need to start a Pathfinder group?

I'm thinking I need a paper copy of the Pathfinder rules, since while it seems to be all open Game content, it's easier to pass around a book than a website at a table. How is that set up? For 3.5 it was Player's guide, DMG, and Monster Manual to have the full core set. What do you need for Pathfinder?

For miniatures, I'll use the Monsters for Every Seasons PDFs from the OoTS Kickstarter. That should work out nicely for starters.

Dice, of course. My old ones have gotten a bit unreadable, so a new set of d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d% would probably be in order. I know some of them have their own dice for playing Magic, so as long as I have my own set, it should work initially. If they like it, they'll probably get their own.

But I know I'm missing some kind of map/battlemat, and I'm sure I'm missing something else completely. So, could anyone help a me get an overview of what I need logistically to pull this off?

Also, starting a new group of pretty much all newbies... what do I need to watch out for? I'm only a rookie-DM. I've done it, but I'm not GOOD at it yet.

[Grollub]

I would recommend at least 1 set of basic books for the group.. ( players guide, dm guide, advanced players guide ), battlemat/ mini's would be nice, 3-4 friends, and an imagination :smallcool:


oh.. and some cheetos!! :smallsmile:

[McNum]

Oh, so that's the core books? Player's guide, DM's Guide and Advanced Player's Guide?

I take it the monsters are in the DM guide?

The imagination, well, I've got an overactive one, but I'm kind of hoping we can agree to a basic framework in the beginning. Something simple so we can spend more time learning how to play than doing complicated story arcs and sandbox play. You know like "You're mercenaries and you're being paid to beat up bandits/orcs/kobolds/elves." Not the biggest imaginary leap, but, it should work well enough to learn the ropes of the game.

Then I can bait them with a plothook later. See if they're up for it.

But first things first. Need to actually found the group before thinking up plots, I'd imagine.

As for snacks, I'll see what the group wants.

[Psyren]

Run them through a short adventure path/module - There's several free ones out there (e.g. Master of the Fallen Fortress) and conversions of 3.5 ones. That should quickly get their feet wet.

The OotS minis are a good idea, just keep in mind that they do need some assembly and work best if printed on cardstock paper.

[Spore]

Dice, a decent character sheet and a laptop with the rules (either in the browser or via purchased searchable pdf).

Some general things on Pathfinder:

1) Traps are stupid. They either KILL people or give experience like a standard encounter for one dice roll. My DMs tend to avoid traps (or work around it - not rewarding XP for circumvented traps). My pal made a snarky comment on how his Lv 10 rogue would get to level 20 safely with the right skill set only on opening doors and disabling traps. The character would have no reasonable argument to go adventuring besides breaking in high security vaults in cities.

2) CR of encounters are just for orientation. One group can kill monsters set for 5 levels above their CR, just because they are creative and help each other out greatly. Other groups barely survive fights that were meant to be easy.

3) Do not try and create everything and every minute detail beforehand. Your party might decide to burn down the town you created in an long evening, because they suspect kobolds hiding in there from the last dungeon. Also do not think your players are not creative. If it is flammable, they WILL find a way to burn it.

4) Adventuring is not always killing monsters for loot. Spice it up. Make detective stories, haunted houses, make intrigues against the local captain of the guard. But remember, Pathfinder is still a system focussed on battle. Do not sink into semi interesting role playing. Your warrior with 2 skill points per level might bore his nuts off.

5) Have fun. You might be the DM but it is also your free time. Have some god damn fun with it.

6) Adventuring without danger is boring. If you have to kill off one of your friend's characters, explain to them why, but for christ's sake do it. Some players hate it like nothing else, when a ravenous zombie bound to eat your delicious brains suddenly feels like it has treated you too harshly and runs away like an embarrassed school girl. Characters might be carefully crafted, too, but they're mortal.

[Red Fel]

I agree: You'll need at least one set of the books, some kind of battlemat, etc.

Bring lots of dice. Everyone should have their own set to use. Passing dice around is a pain.

Make it potluck. This creates a feeling of camaraderie that will carry over. Don't just go with bags of chips, get some real food in there. Even if this is the only time you do real food, you want the players to feel comfortable, at home, and positively disposed. Make it a happy memory.

Consider cheat cards. Little one-page printouts that explain in simple terms different actions the players can take, like how and when to make a skill check, how to cast a spell, and how to trip or disarm.

Consider pre-generated characters. For a first-timer, character generation can be a daunting and time-consuming process. Ask everyone in advance what they want to be, and create a character sheet for each one. That way, when using the cheat cards above, you can have each one's cheat card personalized to his or her character's abilities.

As for what to watch out for, several things:

1. Watch out for boredom. Some people get in over their heads, or feel neglected by the plot, or don't find what they're looking for. One bored player can derail the campaign. When you see yawns, or wandering eyes, find a way to get the player engaged again.

2. Watch for lawyers. Some players, even those who have never played before, have a natural instinct for rules or mechanics. Some will leap into the rules, figuring out loopholes and exceptions and "but the rules say" arguments. They are evil, soulless monsters who need to be made to understand, as quickly and politely as possible, that sometimes the DM may bend or suspend the rules for the enjoyment of the players.

3. Watch for wine and cheese. Although these are unrelated, I put them together because it's funny. Sometimes, players will whine and beg. Once you give in to that, you create an expectation that it will work. Be willing to yield to a reasonable request, but never yield to whining. With regard to cheese, look above at the lawyers example. Some players have a natural ability to recognize mechanics that can quickly become overpowering. If a player attempts to capitalize on a broken mechanic or combination of mechanics, be prepared to nip it in the bud quickly. Otherwise, you have to...

4. Watch for shadows. Some players will overshadow others. Some players will be fine being overshadowed, but others will not. Those who don't like being overshadowed may grow bored. Find a way to give each player their chance to shine. Pre-generated characters are a great way to ensure this, by giving each character a blend of in-combat and out-of-combat utility based on what the player wants. If one player becomes the star, the rest of the table may lose interest. Don't let this happen.

These are just some basic tips. There are plenty of others, and I'm very sure there are some "How to DM" guides out there. Most importantly, make sure everyone has fun - including you. If the players don't have fun, the evening was a waste. If the DM doesn't have fun, the players won't have fun, but more importantly, the DM won't DM for long. So make it fun for you too!

[Psyren]

If it's their first time go a little easy on them too. If you drop a character into negatives, have the monster move on to the others so they have a chance to go revive their comrade.

Traps on their own are indeed not very useful, but combined with monsters - especially monsters who are resistant to or can take advantage of their effects - they can make for very memorable fights. For example, a trap that shoots darts isn't much of a challenge on its own, but a trap that shoots darts with a beetle swarm in the same room (the darts fly through the swarm without damaging them) can quickly become harrowing for low-level PCs, especially if the rogue has to get around the monster somehow to disable the trap.

[McNum]

I'm of the Legend of Zelda/Indiana Jones school of traps, anyway. If a trap isn't an event or something everyone has to consider, then... why is it there? If I want to do damage, I can send in a monster that everyone can fight. I'll make sure the Rogue gets to try his hand at either disarming or mitigating some of the traps, of course.

I used traps exactly twice. One was an alarm made from a string across the room and a little bell, and the other was a flame jet that fired every other turn. The point of the first was to let the PCs get a surprise round if they didn't trigger it, and the other was simply to make them examine the room before hurrying through. Both did their job. I wanted to do the giant boulder thing, but never got around to it. Gotta respect the classics. As long as I don't abuse the classics. Also, I should consider replacing the boulder with a Golem. It can walk up stairs. Eh, details, details...

As for the people skills, I've never been good at reading people. And as I've recently learned, I never will be. That might be a problem for me, but I'll try to keep an eye out for people taking the spotlight too much or too little. I already know which one is going to be the rules lawyer. I've played Magic with several of them, after all. I could probably even pick out their preferred classes from their decks...

The Pre-generated characters might be a good idea. Although character creation is also pretty fun, so I'd have to take that up with them if they want to do it either way. I do like the idea of cheat-sheets with the basic rules on and for whoever plays magic user, the short version of what their spells do.

It sounds like a bit of work to get set up, but that's the DM's burden, really. That's the price I pay for playing an entire world of NPCs when the players only get one character each.

[jjcrpntr]

I'm really new to table top gaming but so far in my experience a good dm needs to do a few things in addition to what has been said already.

1) craft a story that makes sense. My group has only done 1 mini campaign and at the end we were all scratching our head because nothing we had to do made any sense. By the end the DM basically jumped us to the end because we were all so confused people were getting annoyed.

2) Don't be a jerk to the players. Make things hard/challenging sure. I'd like a bit of detective work in a campaign. But, for example, our group last weekend was walking around a dungeon aimlessly for 2 real life hours because we couldn't figure out a riddle. After the game the DM told us that we were never going to get the riddle anyway (riddle was 1+1=? apparently the answer was fish) because it was taken from the Fairy Oddparents kids show. He also got annoyed at us playfully poking fun at stuff (like having a metal door that our dwarf couldn't identify the metal of, or the fact that a roll after bonus of 22 on a perception check couldn't hear a giant beast charging at us) so he went and got monsters that were way above our level that damn near one shotted the entire group.

3) This kind of goes with #2 and as someone already said look out for people yawning or getting bored. But when you plan out your campaign, try to avoid major mechanics that are just there to annoy the players. Having an annoying street kid is one thing but having elements that you specifically design to annoy people or that you see they are finding incredibly annoying/frustrating can kill things fast. Challenge is great, but the line between challenging and annoying can be blurred fast. The line between annoying and flat out not fun can be crossed.

Again these are my brief thoughts having played 4 games so far. But to me these are things I wish my DM would take note of.

[Alefiend]

Definitely a copy of the Core Rulebook plus the APG. I'd also recommend having at least one Bestiary on hand. If there are any subsystems you really want to use (Words of Power from UM or kingdom building and downtime from UC) then you're better off having the books than using the online PFSRD or PRD, but it's not essential.

In my ideal world, I would have the money and space to own all the books and their PDF equivalents, but that's not in the cards for me right now.