PF - Is paragon surge better than a wizard?

[Talya]

We can probably all agree that a half-elf sorcerer who takes Paragon Surge is definitely tier 1. They are definitely more versatile than a wizard with it. However, I'm not sure that they're necessarily better.

(1) Paragon Surge takes an action that you may not have. If you didn't have the right spell readied before the fight, the sorcerer has to take an action and waste a spell slot to get it ready.
Counter argument: That's still better than a wizard, who if they didn't have the spell memorized before the fight, isn't going to use the spell in that fight. Outside of combat, it takes them 15 minutes to ready the spell if they left an empty spell slot.
Counter argument rebuttal: The sorcerer is more likely to need to use paragon surge. The wizard can prep his spells with the likely encounter details already in mind. The sorcerer cannot.

(2) almost half the time the sorcerer is an entire spell level behind the wizard.
Counter argument: I got nothin. It must be the price of phenomenal cosmic power better than yours.

(3) Arcane Bond and bonus feats. Sorcerers don't get them.
Counter-argument: Bloodline powers, which if chosen well can be very powerful. Arcane bond is a possible granted power of the bloodline.

(4) I'm still smarter than you and have more skills!
Counter argument: Shut up, geek. And stop staring at my gorgeous ass. I'm way out of your league.


yes, I'm arguing with myself.

[Psyren]

It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

[Talya]

It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

One side of it. I think my right brain definitely prefers sorcerer, but the left brain remains convinced.

[Frosty]

One argument FOR Paragon surge goodness: Spell Perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection)

At level 15, it's now a swift action to know any spell you need. Paragon Surge is even BETTER for an oracle!

[Squirrel_Dude]

If the sorcerer is stronger than the wizard, it would only be barely. I don't think it's stronger because it takes so long to fully come-online for them.

That said, Paragon Surge Oracle is Tier 0 in my opinion.

[The Random NPC]

(4) I'm still smarter than you and have more skills!
Counter argument: Shut up, geek. And stop staring at my gorgeous ass. I'm way out of your league.

There's an archetype that makes the Sorcerer Int based. Wildblooded (Sage), replaces Arcane Bond of the Arcane Bloodline.

[Sir_Thaddeus]

We can probably all agree that a half-elf sorcerer who takes Paragon Surge is definitely tier 1.

So... I'm probably missing something big, but what's so good about Paragon Surge? I looked it up, and while it is a good spell (+2 Dex and Int, extra feat), I'm not seeing how this makes them as versatile as a wizard. Is there an Extra Spell feat in pathfinder? That's the only thing I could think of that would make this as powerful as you all seem to be saying.

[Talya]

Is there an Extra Spell feat in pathfinder?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana


There's an archetype that makes the Sorcerer Int based. Wildblooded (Sage), replaces Arcane Bond of the Arcane Bloodline.

I'm not trading this hotness for your geekiness!

[Slipperychicken]

So... I'm probably missing something big, but what's so good about Paragon Surge? I looked it up, and while it is a good spell (+2 Dex and Int, extra feat), I'm not seeing how this makes them as versatile as a wizard. Is there an Extra Spell feat in pathfinder? That's the only thing I could think of that would make this as powerful as you all seem to be saying.

Bingo. That's why Paragon Surge is broken as all hell.


In my opinion, Wizard is still better in terms of optimization power because Paragon Surge makes you blow a 3rd level spell slot each time you want to use it (and those things aren't cheap). Of course, Wizards are harder to break in PF than in 3.5.

When you include ease-of-use, then sorcerer becomes more preferable to me. They can break the game without nearly as much paperwork :smalltongue:

[Sir_Thaddeus]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana

Ah, okay. I really must spend more time on the SRD, I didn't know about this.

[Alefiend]

(1) Paragon Surge takes an action that you may not have. If you didn't have the right spell readied before the fight, the sorcerer has to take an action and waste a spell slot to get it ready.
Counter argument: That's still better than a wizard, who if they didn't have the spell memorized before the fight, isn't going to use the spell in that fight. Outside of combat, it takes them 15 minutes to ready the spell if they left an empty spell slot.
Counter argument rebuttal: The sorcerer is more likely to need to use paragon surge. The wizard can prep his spells with the likely encounter details already in mind. The sorcerer cannot.

Response to rebuttal: The wizard has a class feature that lets him have all his spells at hand, all the time. It's called the Scribe Scroll feat, which they all get at level 1. Using it in combat is likely only a move action to get the scroll out, then the zapping and the screaming.


(4) I'm still smarter than you and have more skills!
Counter argument: Shut up, geek. And stop staring at my gorgeous ass. I'm way out of your league.

Point of information: Pics or it didn't happen. :smallwink:

[Frosty]

Ah, okay. I really must spend more time on the SRD, I didn't know about this.
For the oracle, that doesn't work if you want Sorc/Wizard spells. You want Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane bloodline) for the 9th level bloodline power. It grants you a wizard/sorc spell known.

[Psyren]

In my games the spell is nerfed - you can't select any feat that would grant you additional spells known. That still leaves metamagic on demand, item creation on demand, combat feats on demand, teamwork feats on demand etc; plenty left to justify its use.

[Spore]

1) You "waste" a turn casting it.
2) Your uses of Lv 3 spells are limited (Fly, Dispel Magic, Fireball, I am looking at you).

It brings the sorcerer closer to the wizard, but they're not en par. That said, an unprepared wizard is always worse than a sorc.

[Khosan]

item creation on demand

Would it actually help though? You only get the feat for minutes per level, and item creation takes at least two hours (for scrolls worth 250gp or less, everything else takes more than a day). I think you'd need to cast it multiple times just to make one thing.

[Frosty]

In my games the spell is nerfed - you can't select any feat that would grant you additional spells known. That still leaves metamagic on demand, item creation on demand, combat feats on demand, teamwork feats on demand etc; plenty left to justify its use.
One of my DMs ruels that I can get new spells known, but each time I cast Paragon Surge I get the same spells known, and I can only switch the spells every time I level up.

[Slipperychicken]

Along the same lines as scrolls: Arcane Bond lets Wizards cast one known spell spontaneously each day. I think this is a potential advantage worthy of consideration.

Also, Wizards are more likely to be allowed in an real life game.

[Frosty]

XD

True, there is the chance of getting the Advance Races Guide thrown at you.

[Talya]

The funny thing about that... "Oh, it's cheesy" "I don't allow it" "my DM puts this restriction on it..."

And yet we're still able to debate whether a sorcerer using it is as good as a wizard.

[Psyren]

"As good as a wizard" is a nearly pointless measure however. A wizard can vary all the way from god clad in flesh to utterly useless. A wizard played to maximum potential, using divinations and his own deity-level intelligence to accurately predict exactly what and how much of everything he needs to prepare - such a person would have no need for paragon surge at all, much less to expend resources making it better/faster.

What you can say is that, in actual play - since the wizard's player likely has an Int score nowhere near that of his character - the wizard will often mess up and not prepare the right thing. In which case a safety net like paragon surge would be useful. Which is why "I would ban/alter it" is relevant, because ultimately all of these godlike characters are tied to our own fallible and mortal decisionmaking, and what this spell does is remove a key limitation of a sorcerer for minimal investment. The fact that the wizard has superior potential doesn't matter because he is unlikely to realize it in-game, unless he's being run by Tippy or Treantmonk or somebody else with the experience necessary to coax out the extent of its powers.

[Saidoro]

Wizard is still better. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/magaambyan-arcanist)

[Fable Wright]

"As good as a wizard" is a nearly pointless measure however. A wizard can vary all the way from god clad in flesh to utterly useless. A wizard played to maximum potential, using divinations and his own deity-level intelligence to accurately predict exactly what and how much of everything he needs to prepare - such a person would have no need for paragon surge at all, much less to expend resources making it better/faster.

One thing that's been bugging me for a while now: What, exactly, are the divinations being used for these predictions? I've read through Tsuyoshi's Guide to Divination and a number of Wizard handbooks, and not once has it ever been explained: How do Wizards know everything that's going to come at them for the day?

[Bhaakon]

The funny thing about that... "Oh, it's cheesy" "I don't allow it" "my DM puts this restriction on it..."

And yet we're still able to debate whether a sorcerer using it is as good as a wizard.

To me, "cheese" is not just about the final power level of the build, but also about whether the player is using loopholes and unforeseen combinations in the rules to work around a very intentional limitation.

A barbarian using internal fortitude and a flawed scarlet and green cabochon ioun stone to rage cycle with no downside is being cheesy, even if the end result isn't more powerful and versatile than virtually any casting class.

Of course the problem here is endless arguing over what constitutes a loophole. Unfortunately, it's more a matter of opinion than fact. As a DM, I wouldn't necessarily ban something just because it's a little cheesy--some intentional limitations are punitive or dumb, and I might even DM fiat them away if there wasn't a cheesy RAW workaround. But I don't have much taste for character sheets marinated in a fondue pot, either.

[Psyren]

One thing that's been bugging me for a while now: What, exactly, are the divinations being used for these predictions? I've read through Tsuyoshi's Guide to Divination and a number of Wizard handbooks, and not once has it ever been explained: How do Wizards know everything that's going to come at them for the day?

In most games, they don't.

But if you were to play a strictly-RAW, Tippy-style game, the big one would be Contact Other Plane, wherein you have an 88% chance of knowing what will happen up to 20 weeks in advance; all you have to do is optimize your Int check.

Note that unlike similar effects (like Divination or Speak With Dead), CoP does not include the "asking the same question gets you the same answer" clause. So if you ask multiple times or in multiple different ways, you can discover any lies the deity attempts to tell. And because it is only blocked "rarely," most of your attempts will get through.


To me, "cheese" is not just about the final power level of the build, but also about whether the player is using loopholes and unforeseen combinations in the rules to work around a very intentional limitation.

A barbarian using internal fortitude and a flawed scarlet and green cabochon ioun stone to rage cycle with no downside is being cheesy, even if the end result isn't more powerful and versatile than virtually any casting class.

Of course the problem here is endless arguing over what constitutes a loophole. Unfortunately, it's more a matter of opinion than fact. As a DM, I wouldn't necessarily ban something just because it's a little cheesy--some intentional limitations are punitive or dumb, and I might even DM fiat them away if there wasn't a cheesy RAW workaround. But I don't have much taste for character sheets marinated in a fondue pot, either.

Pretty much this. I would rather fix a problem than let the player RAW their way around it with multiple varieties of limburger.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

So you interrogate a god? And what happens if you tick off said god?

[Psyren]

So you interrogate a god? And what happens if you tick off said god?

Then Mystra/Boccob cuts them off from the Weave for breaking the laws of magic.

[Squirrel_Dude]

@DM of Darkness.

I've always assumed that it was either the high level spells like contact other plane, Legend Lore, or Vision that let you know about an enemy before you fight them, or a combination of simple scouting spells like arcane eye that let them take 15 minutes to prepare the proper spells before they round the next corner.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Noob Question: Who? and cut off Whom the caster?

Can the God lie?

[ryu]

@DM of Darkness.

I've always assumed that it was either the high level spells like contact other plane, Legend Lore, or Vision that let you know about an enemy before you fight them, or a combination of simple scouting spells like arcane eye that let them take 15 minutes to prepare the proper spells before they round the next corner.

Alternatively just wish up an ice assassin scroll of your target and demand it willingly fail its save against a mind rape. Now you know EVERYTHING the target knows including their defenses, offensive tactics, current location, any plans for the future they have, and a whole host of other fun things. It's literally the only thing I actually like in enchantment.

[Psyren]

Noob Question: Who? and cut off Whom the caster?

Can the God lie?

Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm)

A greater deity can only lie if you roll between 91-99 on a d%, per the spell. But the roll is made secretly. So the idea is to optimize your Int check so it can't fail (it's an ability check, ergo you won't fail on a natural 1) and then cast the spell multiple times, minimizing the probability that you act on a lie.

[Fable Wright]

And how do you boost your Int check outside of actually boosting your Int to around 40? Moment of Prescience won't work (as it isn't an opposed check) and I'm not aware of any other ways of boosting the check.

[grarrrg]

Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm)

PSSST! Pathfinder thread! Use this one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/contact-other-plane) instead!
(yes, I know it's the same exact spell)


Wizard is still better. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/magaambyan-arcanist)

Yes and no.
I assume you are referring to the Spell Mastery abilities.

Assuming 10 levels of the PrC:
INT times a day, as a Full-Round action you can re-prepare your spell slots, but only to 'Mastered' spells.

Twice a day, you can Spontaneously cast any Mastered spell by sacrificing a same or higher spell slot.

Once a day you can cast any Mastered spell 'for free'. No spell slot, no prep (no metamagic).

While the number of uses is comparable to how many 3rd level slots a Sorcerer has, the big limit is the Spell Mastery feat.

Unless your Wizard wants to burn almost all of his feats on Spell Mastery (and/or has an impossibly high INT score), he will have a relatively limited pool of spells to draw from.

Whereas a Paragon Surge Sorc can always pull from the entire Wiz/Sorc list on a moments notice.

[JoshuaZ]

Slippeychicken, it would be powerful even if one couldn't use it to get extra spells known. You can use the feat for almost anything. Need a specific metamagic?. Need a bump to a specific skill that doesn't have any easy spell to bump the skill by? Skill Focus. Need a really high AC? Arcane Shield. Need to bump save DC? Spell Focus. Need to duel another mage? Improved Counterspell.


Actually one thing I'm wondering about is what it would do to a witch's power level since they can use it to get the Extra Hex feat. They will still be lower in the Tier than a wizard but that might be enough to make a witch with paragon surge essentially on part with a wizard without it.

[Raven777]

Alternatively just wish up an ice assassin scroll of your target and demand it willingly fail its save against a mind rape. Now you know EVERYTHING the target knows including their defenses, offensive tactics, current location, any plans for the future they have, and a whole host of other fun things. It's literally the only thing I actually like in enchantment.

So these shenanigans are OK but Paragon Surge is cheese?

[Squirrel_Dude]

So these shenanigans are OK but Paragon Surge is cheese?Ryu probably doesn't think that paragon surge is cheese. He's all about the chedder when it comes to casters.

[Bhaakon]

Actually one thing I'm wondering about is what it would do to a witch's power level since they can use it to get the Extra Hex feat. They will still be lower in the Tier than a wizard but that might be enough to make a witch with paragon surge essentially on part with a wizard without it.

The list of hexes isn't really that large, and many of them can be replicated with spells anyway. A normal witch can get all the really useful ones without resorting to paragon surge. So unless you happen to come across a situation where you really, really, REALLY have to sniff out some children and cook them, I'm not seeing much benefit.

[Saidoro]

Yes and no.
I assume you are referring to the Spell Mastery abilities.

Assuming 10 levels of the PrC:
INT times a day, as a Full-Round action you can re-prepare your spell slots, but only to 'Mastered' spells.

Twice a day, you can Spontaneously cast any Mastered spell by sacrificing a same or higher spell slot.

Once a day you can cast any Mastered spell 'for free'. No spell slot, no prep (no metamagic).

While the number of uses is comparable to how many 3rd level slots a Sorcerer has, the big limit is the Spell Mastery feat.

Unless your Wizard wants to burn almost all of his feats on Spell Mastery (and/or has an impossibly high INT score), he will have a relatively limited pool of spells to draw from.

Whereas a Paragon Surge Sorc can always pull from the entire Wiz/Sorc list on a moments notice.

Intoned recollection lets them prepare a spell provided they have mastered it or has her spellbook in hand. So they can grab any spell as a full-round action just as a sorcerer can. Arcane Bond can let them cast any spell they know once per day from level one. And they can paragon surge up more spell masteries just as a sorcerer can grab more expanded arcanas if they really need to. Granted, wizard is more work, but it can totally compete with Paragon Surge Sorcerers for moment-to-moment versatility.
Protip:Select something other than wizard as your favored class and paragon surge up multitalented mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/multitalented-mastery-half-elf) or eclectic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/eclectic) selecting the human wizard bonus whenever you want a spell not in your spellbook. Also good for learning spells in your downtime.

[JoshuaZ]

The list of hexes isn't really that large, and many of them can be replicated with spells anyway. A normal witch can get all the really useful ones without resorting to paragon surge. So unless you happen to come across a situation where you really, really, REALLY have to sniff out some children and cook them, I'm not seeing much benefit.

Yeah, I think you are correct here. The obvious ones to take are just not that long a list. Presumably as Pathfinder expands more the general power level provided by Paragon Surge will start working more for everyone including witches.

[ryu]

So these shenanigans are OK but Paragon Surge is cheese?

Dude I play high tier 1 to low tier 0 games. Cheese is an assumed part of the exercise. Also I prefer a good old fashioned fondue made from several kinds of cheese to one simple flavor.

[The Random NPC]

Protip:Select something other than wizard as your favored class and paragon surge up multitalented mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/multitalented-mastery-half-elf) or eclectic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/eclectic) selecting the human wizard bonus whenever you want a spell not in your spellbook. Also good for learning spells in your downtime.

I don't believe those work, both feats specify that you get 1 HP or 1 Skill point.

[grarrrg]

Intoned recollection lets them prepare a spell provided they have mastered it or has her spellbook in hand. So they can grab any spell as a full-round action just as a sorcerer can.

You'll find I mentioned that.
It takes a Full-Round and can be used INT times a day. That was the first ability I listed.
Paragon Surge takes either a Standard Action (which is better than a Full-Round), OR with Spell Perfection, only takes a Swift (which is a LOT better than a Full-Round).

And regardless of how many spells are in their spellbook, I highly doubt they'd have EVERY spell in their spellbook.



Protip:Select something other than wizard as your favored class and paragon surge up multitalented mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/multitalented-mastery-half-elf) or eclectic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/eclectic) selecting the human wizard bonus
I don't believe those work, both feats specify that you get 1 HP or 1 Skill point.

What he said.
The feats specifically mention HP or Skill.
And neither came out before "alt favored class bonuses" were a thing, so there is no "grandfathered in".

[Saidoro]

You'll find I mentioned that.
You'll find that you did not.

What he said.
The feats specifically mention HP or Skill.
And neither came out before "alt favored class bonuses" were a thing, so there is no "grandfathered in".
There are three possible readings that I can see of the hit point or skill line in multitalented mastery. The first, which you seem to be using, is that it is a restriction on favored class options. Under this reading, a character who takes the feat can never take alternate favored class options for any class since all classes are included under the feat, and loses any they have already taken since the feat is applied retroactively. Since this came out after alternate favored class bonuses, and would be a fairly important downside to the feat, one assumes they would have mentioned somewhere if this were the intended reading rather than just implying it. The second, which I am using, is that the line is a clarification detailing what typically happens when you get a favored class bonus and that it can be deviated from by any technique that would work normally. The third, which is rather silly, is that the hit point and skill point are in addition to the normal favored class bonuses. This last one is obvious munchkinry and will be ignored.

[grarrrg]

You'll find that you did not.


Yes.
I did.

Assuming 10 levels of the PrC:
INT times a day, as a Full-Round action you can re-prepare your spell slots, but only to 'Mastered' spells.

And yes, I did get a couple details wrong, some in your favor, some in my favor.
After re-reading the ability:
"At 3rd level, by performing a special ritual, a Collegiate arcanist can prepare a spell into an open arcane spell slot with 1 minute of preparation. The open spell slot cannot have been one that was filled previously that day and was expended; it must have purposefully been left empty at the beginning of the day when the Collegiate arcanist prepared her spells. She must be able to read her spellbook or have mastered the spell with the Spell Mastery feat in order to prepare it with this ability. She doesn't need to rest for 8 hours beforehand, but all other requirements of the preparation process still apply.

At 9th level, she can do this as a full-round action, provided she has her spellbook in hand or has mastered the spell with the Spell Mastery feat. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier."

So yes, INT times a day you can FILL ONE EMPTY SPELL SLOT as a FULL ROUND action.
Even worse than I initially thought.

[JoshuaZ]

Yes.
I did.


And yes, I did get a couple details wrong, some in your favor, some in my favor.
After re-reading the ability:
"At 3rd level, by performing a special ritual, a Collegiate arcanist can prepare a spell into an open arcane spell slot with 1 minute of preparation. The open spell slot cannot have been one that was filled previously that day and was expended; it must have purposefully been left empty at the beginning of the day when the Collegiate arcanist prepared her spells. She must be able to read her spellbook or have mastered the spell with the Spell Mastery feat in order to prepare it with this ability. She doesn't need to rest for 8 hours beforehand, but all other requirements of the preparation process still apply.

At 9th level, she can do this as a full-round action, provided she has her spellbook in hand or has mastered the spell with the Spell Mastery feat. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier."

So yes, INT times a day you can FILL ONE EMPTY SPELL SLOT as a FULL ROUND action.
Even worse than I initially thought.

Wasn't left open at the beginning of the day. It didn't exist then.

[Saidoro]

So yes, INT times a day you can FILL ONE EMPTY SPELL SLOT as a FULL ROUND action.
Even worse than I initially thought.
Consider an actual adventuring day by an actual wizard. How often in that day will the wizard find themselves in a sharply time-sensitive encounter in which they do not already have one of the most powerful responses available in their top 3 spell levels assuming they maintain a basic amount of diversity in selecting their spells? I'm going to estimate somewhere less than the 4 times per day they have from arcane bond and the spell masteries(possibly with help from paragon surge). And that wizard was already leaving some of their slots open because they are assumed to be basically competent and that's what competent prepared casters do, so that's no extra burden. I'm not arguing that the wizard is perfectly and absolutely better than the sorcerer in all situations just as I wouldn't argue that about the wizard and the fighter. I'm arguing that the tools the wizard possesses better equip them to solve problems than do those the sorcerer possesses. The difference is far, far slimmer than it once was but it still exists.

[grarrrg]

How often in that day will the wizard find themselves in a sharply time-sensitive encounter in which they do not already have one of the most powerful responses available in their top 3 spell levels assuming they maintain a basic amount of diversity in selecting their spells? I'm going to estimate somewhere less than the 4 times per day they have from arcane bond and the spell masteries(possibly with help from paragon surge).

"Competent Sorcerers" are also likely to have powerful responses available in their top 3 spell levels.
Paragon Surging Spell Masteries wastes a spell slot just the same as a Sorcerer 'wastes' a spell slot on Paragon Surge. Yes, a Wizard can then prepare the spell for "later", but the whole point is what spell do you need _now_.


And even assuming your 'trick' with Multitalented Mastery works, you'll note that it benefits a Sorcerer much the same as it would a Wizard.

[Slipperychicken]

And regardless of how many spells are in their spellbook, I highly doubt they'd have EVERY spell in their spellbook.


Actually, Blessed Book (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/book-blessed) makes this affordable by high levels, since he doesn't need to pay the materials cost (only the cost to borrow spells from other Wizards).

Using the table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Adding-Spells-to-a-Wizard-s-Spellbo)* for spellbook-borrowing costs, and the Sorc/Wiz list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---sorcerer-and-wizard), I calculated** that to learn every Wizard spell in Pathfinder from levels 0-9, it would take 4 Blessed Books (3473 pages) worth of spells, for a total of (counting the Blessed Books' cost) 145,745gp. This number does not include free spells per level, and would certainly be lower if it did (too tired to do it now. I might come back to this during the weekend).

By 11th level, a Wizard has the WBL to know every spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list from 0th-5th level (that is every spell he can cast at that level), with a little extra left over (costs about 79,930 gold out of 82,000 WBL). After that, the cost to know all castable spells becomes relatively manageable compared to WBL. Before 11th level, he'll just have to settle for knowing all the worthwhile spells he can cast :smalltongue:


*Bear in mind that NPC wizards usually charge half the costs listed the table (as those are the costs to write into a spellbook) to let a PC wizard copy spells from them. I used the half-value in my calculations the goddamn spreadsheet I needed to do this.

**I counted the spells in each level manually, so my numbers are probably definitely off somewhat.

[stack]

The list of hexes isn't really that large, and many of them can be replicated with spells anyway. A normal witch can get all the really useful ones without resorting to paragon surge. So unless you happen to come across a situation where you really, really, REALLY have to sniff out some children and cook them, I'm not seeing much benefit.

EVERY game man, every game.

[Frosty]

EVERY game man, every game.
Maybe next game I don't bring Abigail back. Instead I bring back Cruella de Vil who ALSO eats babies! :smalltongue:

[Raven777]

Maybe next game I don't bring Abigail back. Instead I bring back Cruella de Vil who ALSO eats babies! :smalltongue:

Like the hypothetical offspring of Cruella Deville and Sauron...

[grarrrg]

EVERY game man, every game.

Hey don't forget the 12 step program man!
Don't fall off the wagon!
We're here for you man.

[stack]

Maybe next game I don't bring Abigail back. Instead I bring back Cruella de Vil who ALSO eats babies! :smalltongue:


Evil campaign!

[Renen]

In my games the spell is nerfed - you can't select any feat that would grant you additional spells known. That still leaves metamagic on demand, item creation on demand, combat feats on demand, teamwork feats on demand etc; plenty left to justify its use.

You can grab crafting feats with it? Dont they need to be there all the time throughout the time you are crafting?