Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Kurald Galain]

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is an estimate of the characters' stats; this was first kept by Runolfr, Wrecan, and Chrismith. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS; RMS Oceanic will update the post with the other characters.

The aim of this thread is that we give D&D statistics for the characters in the comic based on the events and statements made in the comic, plus statements by The Giant in the forum and his books. For this purpose, we assume that the comic strictly follows the 3.5E D&D rules. We are aware that The Giant has stated that he doesn't always follow the rules, because his goal is to write a story and not to write session reports from a D&D campaign. Nevertheless, in this thread we assume the rules are being followed anyway, and see what stats, feats, and skills could explain what happens. Essentially, that means we're taking the rules side of the comic more seriously than its author does; if you like, you can assume a little footnote on every factoid of this thread that says "* or The Giant used a houserule". Why? Well, because it's Geekery. If Star Trek fans can do it, then so can we :smallwink:

Please read the thread rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229756) by Mark Hall.

[Kurald Galain]

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Which source books are used in the comic?

Player's Handbook 1 and Dungeon Master's Guide 1
Book of Vile Darkness (certain monsters; Boost Spell Resistance feat)
Complete Adventurer (ninjas)
Complete Arcane (warlocks; Tsukiko's and Zz'dtri's spells)
Complete Warrior (hexblade)
Dungeonscape (Thog; the acid-breathing shark; note that The Giant co-wrote this book)
Expanded Psionics Handbook (blue; mindblade)
Fiend Folio (certain monsters)
Magic of Incarnum (mentioned by Redcloak's lackey)
Monster Manual (mentioned by Celia and Vaarsuvius)
Monster Manual 2 (certain monsters)
Oriental Adventures (other samurai class, and mentioned by Xykon)
Spell Compendium (numerous spells that aren't from the PHB1)
uncertain: Epic Level Handbook (a feat and spell from this book are mentioned, but most epic characters or spells in the comic don't follow the rules from this book)


Q: In which comic do the characters demonstrate having leveled?
{table]Level|:roy:|:belkar:|http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png|:elan:|:haley:|:vaar suvius:
9|12|12|12|12|12|12
10|124|125|124|124|124|124
11|251|???|201|???|???|186
12|???, 665|249|???|???|477|???
13|485, 862|???|556|393|511|397
14|886|???|859|647|???|627
15|936|860| - |904|615|716
16| - |936| - |936|936|935[/table]

Q: Which characters are included in this thread?
(1) All named members of the Order, Team Evil, the Linear Guild, the Order of the Scribble, and Team Tarquin.
(2) Any frequently occurring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
(3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.
This means that Daigo and Kazumi would be next in line, but we don't have a lot of material on either character.

Q: Which material is covered by this thread?
All comics on the web and in print (including SSDT, Gygax magazine, and the Kickstarter bonus stories), as well as anything written about the comic by The Giant. However, not included are any one-panel joke comics, such as used for incentives, t-shirts, or the fundraiser.
Note that even though the characters have stated they aren't sure whether this is the same continuity, certain items and abilities have been shown to carry over. We're listing all of it here for the sake of convenience, but any material from (e.g.) SSDT is clearly marked as such so that people can distinguish it from the main online comics.

Q: I've heard there was a fight over some topic years ago, and now we're not allowed to discuss it any more. Is that the case?
No; this thread does not have a banned topic list (of course, the forum as a whole has one; please see the board rules for details).

Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

Q: If a character makes a special attack like grappling, and his victim does not make an attack of opportunity, can that be evidence of a feat like Improved Grapple?
Yes, assuming the victim is armed, and otherwise capable of making AOOs. It is clear that the rules for attacks of opportunity are used in the comic, and there is no reason to assume that grappling/tripping/sundering is an exception.

Q: If somebody doesn't say the name of a spell while casting it, does that mean he has the Silent Spell feat?
Not necessarily. We know that Vaarsuvius doesn't have that feat, and yet V still occasionally casts spells while talking about something else.

Q: What does "Core" mean?
The three "Core" books in 3E D&D are the Player's Handbook 1 (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide 1 (DMG), and Monster Manual 1 (MM). This is an official term defined by WOTC, who put the word "Core" in big letters on the cover of these three books. No other books are Core, and there is no such thing as "partially Core", "almost Core", or "semi-Core" - every book is either Core or non-Core. Note that both the OOTS comic and this thread contain numerous non-Core elements.

Q: Does The Giant use house rules?
Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there.

Q: A character undertook this heinous/awesome/dutiful/impulsive/meh action. Does that mean they are now evil/good/lawful/chaotic/neutral?
No. As seen in a thousand forum threads, people have different ideas about alignment, and what defines and changes them. The alignments posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their alignment, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which has an alignment restriction. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's action changes their alignment, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers.

Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?
No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Improved Spell Capacity, the feat Sudden Maximize, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.

[Kurald Galain]

:roy: Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), Human male Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) 15 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16752837&postcount=1353)).
Str 24+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html) (Unmodified strength 20+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0004.html)) *)
Dex 13+ (required for Improved Grapple)
Int 14-17 (“very good"*, but V's Int is "higher"*)
Wis 14+ (“very good"*)
Cha 12+ (“decent*), modifier less than Elan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html).
Age: 29 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html).
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html), Horace Greenhilt's Mage Slayer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html), Improved Grapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html), Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Improved Unarmed Strike (prerequisite for Improved Grapple), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (sleeps in armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html) without getting fatigued).
Skills (60+): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html),
Knowledge (Arcana) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html), Knowledge (Geography) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), Profession (Goatherd) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spellcraft (OOPC), Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html), Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html).
Items: Magical armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), club (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html), newspaper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), +5 Greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html), formal suit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0310.html), shillelagh oil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Belt of Giant Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html), book, sextant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html).
*

:belkar: Belkar Bitterleaf aka Ali S. Fakenamington (KS:US), aka the Belkster, aka Death's Li'l Helper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html)
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) male Ranger 11+ / Barbarian (forum), total level 16 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16752837&postcount=1353)).
Str 14-17 (jump exceeds movement, forum, and carrying capacity in SSDT).
Dex 13+ (prerequisite for Spring Attack).
Int <10 (OOPC).
Wis <10 (ability score penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
Cha <10 (without any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)).
Age: 28+ (ranger for three years, over a year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)).
Feats (11): Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (all ranger bonus feats); Bounding Attack, Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), Dodge (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Mobility (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Spring Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html); no feats related to special attacks (SSDT).
Skills (89): Balance 5+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html), Craft: Trapmaking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html), Handle Animal 0 (NCPB), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html), Move Silently 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html), Profession: gourmet chef 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Sense Motive 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Speak language: halfling (racial), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html), Survival 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html), Use Magic Device (SSDT).
Abilities: Halfling racial abilities, ranger and barbarian class abilities, animal companion: Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html), scent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).
Items: Unholy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html), Ring of Jumping +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html), quill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), chef hat, Mama Bitterleaf's secret ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), clothespin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), 3 small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) (which are at least +4 and +2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16461748&postcount=668
)), mimic (SSDT), wand of dispel clothing (SSDT), book: Dune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), bucket and spade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), bag of holding full of money (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html). Either has dex 15+ or wears light or no armor (to use two-weapon pounce).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/MrScruffy.png Mr. Scruffy
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889) (forum), Cat male, animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html).
Str 6 (animal companion).
Dex 18 (animal companion).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 2 (racial).
Wis 12 (racial).
Cha 7 (racial).
Age: 7 (WXP).
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16, Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3 (all racial skills).
Abilities: Low-light vision, scent (both racial abilities); natural armor +4, link, share spells, evasion, devotion (all animal companion abilities); 3 tricks, including attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) and come (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html).
Items: String (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html) male non-theistic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15060436#post15060436) (forum) Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) 14 (based on spells cast in a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html)).
Str 20-25 (can carry Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html); +6 as vampire).
Dex <14 (dex penalty, SSDT; +4 as vampire).
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~12 (no evidence; +2 as vampire).
Wis 19-25 (required for 7th-level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html), and to lose his best 7th-level spell to Enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html); +2 as vampire).
Cha <14 (low modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html); +4 as vampire).
Age: 55+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html).
Feats (5): Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html), Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html); Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
Skills (31+): Knowledge: Religion not maxed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html), Listen 0 (OOPC), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Speak language: dwarf (racial) and giant (SSDT), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, vampire abilities.
Items: Candles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html), deck of cards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), heirloom shield and warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html), parcheesi board (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), religious vestments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html), scroll of Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), belt pouch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html), flask of liquor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), 10,000+ gp of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html), Staff of Obscure Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html), healing potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html).
Spells: Standard cleric list, plus domain spells as listed above, plus Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0027.html), Control Winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html), Cure Itchy Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), Heathen Smiting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), Mass Death Ward with backdoor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html), Mass Resist Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html), and Tumor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html).
Before becoming a vampire, Durkon was Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), had Con ~12 (racial), the ability Turn Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), the Good domain (required to cast Holy Smite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)), and the spells Thor's Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html) and Might of Thor (which is assumed to be the standard cleric spell Righteous Might).

:elan: Elan
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html), Human male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 13 (required to get these spells at level-up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)) / Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), total level 16 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16752837&postcount=1353)).
Str <20 (can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), and the same as Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955&postcount=47), forum).
Dex 13-17 (required for Dodge, and to get a four on Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html)).
Con same as Nale.
Int 4-10 (too low to cast cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), but higher than Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html).
Wis <10 (not even a smidgen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)).
Cha 22+ (required for 5th level spells at level 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), +2 from belt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)).
Age: 22+ (WXP).
Feats (6): Dodge, Mobility (both prerequisites for Spring Attack), Spring Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html).
Skills (85+): Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen (higher than Sir Francois, OOPC), Move Silently <3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), Perform: sing 12+ (required for Inspire Greatness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html)), Perform: string instruments 15+ (required for Song of Freedom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html)), Perform: kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), Ride 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Spellcraft 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0324.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html).
Abilities: Bard class abilities, charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), dramatic instincts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html), glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html).
Items: Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html) rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), ceremonial meat costume (OOPC), dice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html), Boots of Elvenkind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html), yoyo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html), toothbrush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html), silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) +3 keen rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html), lute (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), Belt of Charisma +2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), treasure chest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), drawing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), The Stick the Order was named after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html), letter, Chaos Sabre (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html), evil sword (SSDT), castanets and sombrero (SSDT), no armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html). Elan still has his old equipment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8484548&postcount=12) (forum).
Spells: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Lesser Confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), Mass Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html), Neutralize Poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html), not Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), or Break Enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).

:haley: Haley Starshine aka Mistress Nightingale, aka The Red Blur (OOPC), aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html)
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), Human female Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) 16 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16752837&postcount=1353)).
Str 13-19 (high enough to drag the cart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html), but can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html)).
Dex 20-21 (modifier of +5, forum).
Con 9+ (higher than Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)).
Int 12+ (received bonus languages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html)).
Cha 12-19 (with any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html); and with maxed out Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html), for Hide to be her best skill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
Age: About 25 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12254291&postcount=24) (forum; was 24 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), and that was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) over a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html) year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)).
Feats (9+): Dodge (SSDT), Improved Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Precise Shot (prerequisite for IPS), Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html).
Skills (180+): Appraise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html), Bluff 18+ (maxed out) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), Forgery (OOPC), Hide 18+ (best skill) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html), Knowledge: Religion low (forum) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15175785&postcount=48), Open Lock 15, Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Search (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html) not maxed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), Sense Motive 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Spellcraft 9+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0108.html), Use Magic Device 7+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html), Use Rope 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html).
Abilities: Rogue class abilities; two special rogue abilities, both spent on a feat.
Items: Two gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html), 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), towel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), hair dryer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), +5 Air Freshener of Pineness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html), a lot of clothes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), +5 longbow of Icy Burst (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Crystal's +4 blade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html), magic leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dyed Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) of Speed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11095086&postcount=2) (forum), at least 200,000 gp in cash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html), trowel, metal detector (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), 4+ quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) including silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), three potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) (since Belkar took one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)), thief's tools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), wands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), bag of copper pieces (SSDT).

:vaarsuvius: Vaarsuvius
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11664984#post11664984) (forum), Elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) ambiguously gendered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html) Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html): Evoker (DCF) 16 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982)).
Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), and strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html)).
Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
Con 8-12 (required to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html); also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)).
Int 24 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982)).
Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html), and without any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)).
Age: 131+ (WXP).
Feats (11+): Alertness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Extend Spell (SSDT), Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), not Silent Spell (forum), not Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).
Skills (108+): Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), Craft: Alchemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html), Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), Knowledge: Religion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) not high (forum) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15175785), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html), Speak Language: elf (racial), raven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html), not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html), , Use Magic Device 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html).
Abilities: Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), share spells with familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) and Necromancy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686399&postcount=36) (forum; also by elimination).
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th-level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) with a base int of 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) at level 11), doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html), Ring of Wizardry III or IV (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html), many scrolls and spellbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html), Finding Plot Holes for Dummies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), twelve more books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), jar of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), defensive potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html), Tarquin's whip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html), Orange Prism Ioun Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html), two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT), chalice (SSDT).
Spells: Arcane Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Banishment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html), Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html), Bugsby's Clenched Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Bugsby's Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0116.html), Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Distant Inferno (OOPC), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Flamefinger (OOPC), Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html), Greater Invisibility (SSDT), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Heroism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html). Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Overland Flight usable on others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Passwall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0857.html), Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html), Power Word Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Prismatic Spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Protection from Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html), Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), See Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), Stone to Flesh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html), Summon Plot Hole (SWMU), True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html), Wall of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html), at least one sonic spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Blackwing.png Blackwing (Common name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html))
Raven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) male, familiar.
Str 1 (racial).
Dex 15 (racial).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 13 (familiar).
Wis 14 (racial).
Cha 6 (racial).
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7 (racial skills), can use Vaarsuvius's skill ranks (familiar).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), low-light vision (both racial abilities); natural armor +8, improved evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html), empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with birds, spell resistance 18 (all familiar abilities).
Items: Bauble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), sombrero, fake beard and mustache (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), wand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html).

[Kurald Galain]

Probably unnecessary placeholder. Next posts are for Oceanic.

[RMS Oceanic]

Team Evil

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/PimpedXykon.png Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13027771&postcount=5) (forum) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html), Human male lich (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html), Sorcerer 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Wis ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Cha 28+ (casts seven 9th-level spells in one combat, SOD).
Age: 111+ (WXP).
Feats (13+): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), at least one craft feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).
Skills (46+): Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Concentration (required to cast while grappled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)), Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge: Arcana 24+ (required for Epic Spellcasting), Reverse Psychology 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Speak Language: Draconic (NCPB); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), turn resistance, damage reduction (SOD), immunity to cold, electricity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks (all lich abilities).
Items: Soul gem (SOD), Serini's diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html), Widescreen crystal ball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), Dorukan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), unspecified item that gives fire immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).
Spells: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Animate Dead Animal (SOD), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Energy Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), Epic Mage Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Greater Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Invisibility (SOD), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Mass Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Soul Bind (SOD), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Superb Dispelling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), unspecified summoning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), unspecified fire spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), unspecified spell that enables travel to the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Redcloak.png Redcloak, pseudonym (SOD)
Lawful (required for Law domain) Evil (SOD), Goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) male, Cleric (SOD) 17 (can cast 9th spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html)).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 20+ (based on saving throw difficulty class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)).
Cha 12+ (required to use Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) four times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)).
Age: 55+ (WXP), does not age physically (SOD).
Feats (5+): Craft Wondrous Item (Xykon's phylactery in SOD), Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).
Skills (36+): Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), Speak Language (Goblin) Does not speak Draconic (NCPB).
Abilities: Goblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html), Command Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), Destruction domain (required to cast Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html)) and Law domain (required to cast Hold Monster, SOD).
Items: The Crimson Mantle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html), backup unholy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), eye patch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), Xykon's Phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html), Arcane half of the Snarl Ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), Ring of protection from level drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)
Spells: standard cleric list, plus domain spells as listed above, plus Unseal, Greater Obscure Object, Superior Resistance, Hardening (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html)

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Tsukiko (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html))
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57), Human female, Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html): Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11637535) (forum) 3+ / Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) 3+ (required for Mystic Theurge) / Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) 6+, and two more levels of either Wizard or Mystic Theurge (required to cast 6th-level wizard spells).
Int 16+ (required to cast Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) as a wizard).
Wis 15+ (required to cast Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) as a cleric).
Feats (6+): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html).
Skills (42+): Knowledge: Arcana 6+, Knowledge: Religion 6+ (required for Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)).
Abilities: Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), two unknown domains, barred school (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11637535) (forum): Abjuration (by elimination).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unholy symbol (required to cast Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html)), Xykon plushie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Xykon portrait, various books and scrolls, quill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html).
Spells: standard cleric list, plus wizard spells Cold Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html), Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Fire Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Lesser Acid Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Mind Fog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html), Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910)).

:mitd: Monster In The Darkness
Please see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293047) for details.


The Linear Guild

:nale: Nale (Deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html))
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human male, Fighter / Rogue 2+ (required for Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)) / Sorcerer 8+ (required to cast Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html)); total level 15 (Hit by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)).
Str <19 (same as Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955), forum).
Dex 13-17 (same as Elan).
Con ?? (same as Elan).
Int 13+ (For Combat Expertise).
Cha 15+ (required to cast Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)).
Age: 22+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) (same as Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html).
Abilities: Rogue class abilities.
Items: Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Linear Guild Business Cards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), wand of Enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html), Elixirs of Negative Energy protection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html).
Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).

:sabine: Sabine
Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), Succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) female, Racial hit dice 6 / Level adjustment 6 / Rogue (NCPB) 3+ (at least as high as her personal rival (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html)).
Dex ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Int 9+ (higher than Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), lower than Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11883778&postcount=198), forum).
Wis ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~26 (no evidence, racial).
Age: 2000+ (NCPB).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), change shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt, suggestion, greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), summon demon, damage reduction 10 / cold iron or good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), darkvision, electricity and poison immunity, acid cold and fire resistance, spell resistance 18, telepathy, tongues; plane shift 1/day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) (all racial abilities), rogue class abilities, doesn't grow tired (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html).
Items: Cellphone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)

:thog: Thog
Non-lawful (required for rage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Half-Orc male, Fighter 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) / Barbarian 9+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) (required to have 3 attacks a round).
Str 14+ (his highest ability score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html)).
Int <8 (racial, dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)).
Wis <10 (abysmal will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Age: 17+ (WXP).
Feats (3+): Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html).
Skills (6+): Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html).
Abilities: Dungeoncrasher alternative class feature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11982830)), half-orc racial abilities, barbarian class abilities.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/drizzle.png Zz'dtri (Deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html))
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) Drow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) male, Wizard: Transmuter (DCF) 15 (deafened by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Int 17+ (required to cast Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html)).
Cha ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Feats (9+): Lightning Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html), Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=822237)), Boost Spell Resistance, unspecified feat that increases Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html).
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)
Abilities: Spell Resistance 28+ (racial, at least +4 from feats and an item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)); drow racial abilities; barred schools: Enchantment, Necromancy (by elimination).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unspecified item that boosts Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html).
Spells: Baleful Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), Break Enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html), Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), Fly (3.0 version) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html), Locate Object (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html), Magic Circle Against Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Phantasmal Killer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Planar Binding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html), Protection from Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html), Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html), Vitriolic Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html), Wall of Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), unspecified lightning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html).

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7486/hilgya.png Hilgya Firehelm
Non-lawful (worships the god of chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)) Evil (DCF), Dwarf female, Cleric of Loki (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) 7+ (required to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html)).
Wis 14+ (required to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html)).
Skills: Speak Language (Dwarven)
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html), Fire domain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html), one unknown domain.
Items: Horned helmet, armor, shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html), holy symbol (required to use rebuke ability (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)).

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9580/yikyikpy8.jpg Yikyik (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0063.html))
Chaotic Evil (same as Belkar, DCF), Kobold male, Ranger (DCF).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex 12+ (gets additional attack from Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html)).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Feats: Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html), Track (ranger bonus feat).
Skills: Speak Language (Draconic)
Abilities: Ranger class abilities.
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html), Gnome male, Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html) 13+ (required to cast Fire Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 17+ (required to cast Fire Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).
Feats (5+): Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html).
Abilities: Gnome racial abilities, druid class abilities, animal companion (hawk "Kitty" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html), deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Pompey.png Pompey
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57), Half-Elf male, Wizard: Conjurer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) 5+ (required to cast Still Silent Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html)).
Int 14+ (required to cast four 2nd-level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) spells per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)).
Age: 44+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).
Feats (3+): Scribe scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell, Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html).
Skills (35+): Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).
Abilities: Half-elf racial abilities, barred schools: evocation and enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html), Summon Monster I (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html), Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) -- lowest-level possibilities are Mage Armor, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Yokyok.png Yokyok (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html))
Kobold male.
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Skills: Speak Language (Draconic)
Items: Rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html).

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9580/yikyikpy8.jpg Yukyuk (Deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html))
Kobold male, Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) 4+ (required for an animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)) / Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Abilities: Ranger and rogue class abilities, animal companion (riding dog "Sir Scraggly" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)).
Feats (4+): Endurance, Track (ranger bonus feats).
Skills: Speak Language (Draconic)
Items: Two Crossbows of Quick Loading (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html).

[RMS Oceanic]

The Sapphire Guard

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human male, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) 11-12 (three attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), but was lower level than Roy during the battle at Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), and hasn't leveled up since (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)).
Age: 26+ (WXP).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities, Summon Conscience (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), paladin mount: dire wolf "Argent" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html).
Items: Cold-iron katana, silvered katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html); magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/lien.png Lien
Lawful Good, Human female, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) 12+ (higher level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Str 13+ (required for Cleave).
Int 10+ (good, not dumb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html)).
Age: 29+ (three years older than Hinjo, DSTP).
Feats (6+): Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Weapon Focus: Longspear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities, paladin mount: large shark "Razor" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html).
Items: Longspear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html); magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); ring of waterbreathing (DSTP).

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html))
Lawful Good, Human female, Monk 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 10+ (three main-hand attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), and higher level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)).
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html); the DMG states that a katana is a masterwork bastard sword; wielding it in one hand requires a feat, wielding it in two hands does not).
Dex 17+ (required for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).
Wis 11+ (required to cast Cure Light Wounds in the Miko fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html)).
Age: 28+ (WXP).
Feats (6+): Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (two off-hand attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)), Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html), Quick Draw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html), Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html), Two-Weapon Fighting (prerequisite for ITWF).
Skills (30+): Knowledge: the Planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html), Spellcraft 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html), Survival +1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html).
Abilities: Monk class abilities, unavailable paladin mount: horse "Windstriker" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).
Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); katana, wakizashi (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.png O-Chul
Lawful Good, Human male, Fighter / Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) 3+ (has Aura of Courage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)), total level 12+ (higher than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Str 11+ (can carry Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)).
Con ~25 (WXP).
Cha <10 (dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)).
Age: 29+ (fighter for twelve years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), and minimum age for a fighter is 16).
Skills (45+): Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Swim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Shojo.png Shojo (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html))
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), Human male, Aristocrat 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html).
Str / Dex / Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
Int / Wis / Cha ~13 (no evidence, age).
Age: 72+ (WXP).
Feats (6): Improved Paranoia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html).
Skills (68+): Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), Perform (puppetry) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html).

Team Tarquin

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Tarquin
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), Human male, level 21+ (for Infinite Deflection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html)).
Str 16+ (can carry Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)).
Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
Dex 25+ (required for Infinite Deflection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html)).
Int, Wis, Cha ~11 (no evidence, age).
Age: 51+ (adventuring for 35 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html)).
Feats: Quick draw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html), [Dodge and Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit] (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Combat Reflexes, Infinite Deflection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html), Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html)
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html), Ride (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html)
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html)
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html), helmet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html), two Rings of Regeneration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), Ring of True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), Glamoured Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html), mask that says "Nope" on it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html), whip, Extra Strength Keoghtum Ointment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png Malack (Deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html)), pseudonym (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)
Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715754&postcount=56), Lizardfolk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) male vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html), Cleric of Nergal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) 12 (required for Craft Staff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html), but no higher spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715754&postcount=56)).
Age: 200+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html).
Str ~18 (no evidence, racial).
Con n/a (undead).
Dex ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Int ~10 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 20+ (from spells per day (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15716359&postcount=751)).
Cha ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Skills: Speak Language (Draconic)
Feats (5+): Craft Staff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html); Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
Abilities: Vampire abilities, Cleric Domains (Death and Destruction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715919&postcount=61)).
Items: Holy Symbol.
Spells: Standard cleric list, plus Death and Destruction domain spells, Protection from Daylight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html).

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/8008/978c.png Laurin Shattersmith
Evil Human Female, Psion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) 13+ (To be level drained (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html) but still manifest Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html))
Str, Dex, Con ~7 (No evidence, age)
Int 16+ (To manifest Disintegrate)
Wis, Cha ~12 (No evidence, age)
Age: 58+
Items: Headband, Red Ioun Stone, Green Ioun Stone, Orange Ioun Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)
Powers Known: Body Adjustment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html),
Control Body (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html), Dispel Psionics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html), Specified Energy Adaptation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html), Mental Disruption (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Mind Probe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html), Telekinetic Force (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html), Unspecified Attack Power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html), Wormhole (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html)

http://imageshack.us/a/img199/803/f5bb.png Miron Shewdanker
Evil Human Male, [Wizard 15+ or Sorcerer 16+] (To cast Horrid Wilting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html))
Str, Dex ~9 (No evidence, age)
Con 6+
Int [18+ or ~11]
Wis ~11 (No evidence, age)
Cha [~11 or 18+]
(Intelligence or Charisma depends on which class he is)
Age: 38+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16361374&postcount=218)
Spells Known: Baleful Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html), Horrid Wilting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Unspecified Defensive Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Kilkil.png Kilkil
Lawful Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) Winged Kobold male, level 5-10 (paralyzed by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html)).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Items: Glasses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html).
Skills: Speak Language (Draconic)
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html).

[RMS Oceanic]

The Order of the Scribble

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SoonKim.png Soon Kim (Deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html))
Lawful Good, Human Sacred Watcher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) Male, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) 21+ (Low Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331)).
Str 13+ (For EWP (Katana))
Con n/a (Deathless)
Cha ~14 (No Evidence, Sacred Watcher)
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html), Paladin Abilities, Sacred Watcher Abilities, Deathless Abilities
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)
Skills:
Items: Enchanted Armor, Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html).
Spells: Standard Paladin Spells.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Lirian.png Lirian (deceased, SoD)
Neutral Good, Female elf Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) 21+ (Low Epic).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, elf).
Con ~8 (no evidence, elf).
Wis 19+ (required to cast Shapechange, SoD)
Skills: Speak Language (Elven, Druidic)
Feats:
Items:
Spells: Standard Druid, plus Divine Half of the Rift Sealing Ritual, Divine Half of the Gate Building Ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), Guardian Virus and Guardian Virus Innoculation

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd40/rtg0922/OotSSmilies/Dorukan.png Dorukan (Deceased, SoD)
Neutral Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57), Human Wizard 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Str/Dex/Con ~4 (No evidence, age)
Int 19+ (required to cast Gate)
Age: 71+
Skills: Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge (Arcana) 24+ (For Epic Spellcasting)
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Craft Wonderous Item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)
Spells: Anti-Second Edition Ward (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), Arcane Half of the Rift Sealing Ritual, Arcane Half of the Gate Building Ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), Cloister, Unspecified Conjuration (Calling) spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), "Pure Heart" Ward (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Sending, Teleport, Prismatic Spray, Meteor Swarm, Gate, Scrying, Unspecified Fire Spell

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u93/Reed_Copperstrand/Girard_new.png Girard Draketooth (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html))
Black Dragon-blooded (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) Human male, Ranger 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)/Sorceror 19+ (Low Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331)).
Cha 19+ (required to cast Microcosm)
Feats: Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), not Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331).
Spells: Microcosm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html), Recorded Message/Booby Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), Invisibility Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), Other Illusions

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/serini-1.png Serini Toormuck
Halfling female, Rogue 21+ (Low Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331)).
Str ~5 (no evidence, halfling, age)
Dex ~9 (no evidence, halfling, age)
Con ~7 (no evidence, age)
Int/Wis/Cha ~12 (No evidence, age)
Abilities: Halfling abilities, Rogue abilities
Skills:
Feats:
Items: Shortbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1264/kraagorhc8.gif Kraagor (Deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html))
Non-lawful, Dwarf Male, Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)
Dex ~8 (no evidence, dwarf)
Con ~12 (no evidence, dwarf)
Int 8+ (Doesn't use Thog-speak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html))
Abilities: Dwarf abilities, Barbarian abilities
Skills: Speak Language (Dwarven)
Feats:
Items: Axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)


Family and other characters

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png Celia
Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)).
Cha 16+ (required to cast four 3rd-level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html) in a day).
Age: 22+ (WXP).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), cast sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), shoot lightning out of her fingers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html) (all racial abilities).
Skills (36+): Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Items: Black eyeliner pencil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html), cell phone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), 'feeblemind causing' blue dress (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0310.html).
Spells: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html), either Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html), no necromancy spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Eugene.png Eugene Greenhilt (deceased, OOPC)
Lawful Good (SOD), Human male ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html), Wizard: Illusionist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) 11+ (required to cast Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)).
Str/Dex ~4 (no evidence, age).
Con n/a (undead).
Int 16+ (required to cast Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)).
Wis ~13 (no evidence, age).
Cha 6+ (required to become a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html)).
Age: 81+ (WXP).
Feats (8+): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Detect Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), Fly (SOD), Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html), Minor Image (OOPC), Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html), Summon Boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0525.html), Teleport (SOD), unspecified chair conjuration (OOPC), unspecified fire spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html).

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/julia.png Julia Greenhilt
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html), Human female, Wizard 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html).
Int 15+ (required to cast Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) from a scroll).
Age: 17+ (five years younger than Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)).
Feats (4): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
Spells: Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html).

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9168/samrg8.png Samantha (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html))
Evil (NCPB), Human female, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) 12 (required to cast exactly three 6th level spells in a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)).
Cha 16-21 (required to cast Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), but has no bonus spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html) at level 6). Also, her charisma is higher than Haley's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).
Age: 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html).
Feats (5): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), not Silent Spell, not Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html).
Spells: Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html).

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8754/qarrnn2.png Qarr
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), Imp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) male, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html) 8-10 (required to cast Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), and to get only two Scorching Rays (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html)).
Dex ~17 (no evidence, racial).
Wis ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha 14+ (required to cast Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html)).
Feats (5+): Dodge, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), poison, detect good, detect magic, invisibility: self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), suggestion 1/day, commune 1/week, alternate form, damage reduction 5/good or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html), darkvision, fast healing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), poison immunity, fire resistance; greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), plane shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), summon devil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) (all racial abilities);
Spells: Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), Lesser Telepathic Bond or Telepathic Bond (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), Extraplanar Phone Connection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html).

[Tass]

Probably unnecessary placeholder. Next posts are for Oceanic.

I was so close to posting "so will it screw things up if I post now?" but I figured I'd play nice and wait 'til Oceanic had a chance to post.

[Kurald Galain]

I was so close to posting "so will it screw things up if I post now?" but I figured I'd play nice and wait 'til Oceanic had a chance to post.

Good for you, otherwise we'd have dispatched a squad of Toxic Dragon Chipmunks to your house!

[RMS Oceanic]

So I guess my first question would be: Do the other characters look better spread out like that? Should I change the order of which they're presented? Should spoiler tags be used more often to hide "dormant" characters? Who would they be?

[Kurald Galain]

So I guess my first question would be: Do the other characters look better spread out like that? Should I change the order of which they're presented? Should spoiler tags be used more often to hide "dormant" characters? Who would they be?

I'm generally against spoiler tags, because they make it require more work to find what you're looking for.

I would suggest listing the various groups in the order in which they appear in the comic, so Team Evil - Linear Guild - Sapphire Guard - Scribble - Tarquin - miscellaneous. I suppose the best ordering within a group is alphabetically with the leader at the top (e.g. Roy - Belkar - Durkon - Elan...), and I don't think there's much point any more in the distinction between current-and-former members of the Linear Guild.

$.02

[zimmerwald1915]

Reading through 904, how does it indicate that Elan is level 15? The justification for making him level 15 is that he ought to be the same level as Nale, who is shown to be level 15 by 860. Thus, should not 860, and not 904, prove that Elan is level 15?

904 does suggest to us that Elan still has only 13 levels of Bard; if he had a fourteenth level, he'd have swapped out one of his spells for another cure spell like he had planned, so he would not have been out of healing. So we can cite 904 as proof that Elan is Bard 13/Dashing Swordsman 2, having first accepted that he has 15 levels, but we cannot cite it as proof that he has 15 levels.

[Living Oxymoron]

Has the possibility of Tarquin being a swordsage been discussed?

This question was made at the end of the other thread, so I felt compelled to answer: yes, it has been discussed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15016938&postcount=148).

[AKA_Bait]

Does anyone have a sense of what power Laurin is using in 927 to hold Roy?

[ti'esar]

and I don't think there's much point any more in the distinction between current-and-former members of the Linear Guild.

Ditto this.

[zimmerwald1915]

Does anyone have a sense of what power Laurin is using in 927 to hold Roy?
I've seen Porthos bandy telekinetic maneuver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticManeuver.htm) about.

[Ramien]

I've seen Porthos bandy telekinetic maneuver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticManeuver.htm) about.

Another option is Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm).

[Hecuba]

Laurin.jpg Laurin Shattersmith
Human Female, Psion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) 17+ (To manifest Wormhole (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html))

I really don't think we have enough information to flag Wormhole as a 9th level power. In fact, given the structure of the 2nd edition science it seems to be updated from, a lower level power that has been heavily augmented would seem more consistent.

We can do math based on the 2nd edition version of the science/power.
Doing so (and counting fewer iterations of wormhole than the previous geekery thread seems have counted up), I arrived at a minimum level of 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16285225&postcount=65) for a 2nd edition character to have sufficient PSP to match her wormhole usage.

To complete the conversion though, we would have to have to account somehow for the difference in how bonus PSP scaled vs how bonus PP scale.

[AKA_Bait]

Another option is Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm).

Control Body is the one I had been thinking about. I'm wondering if the power isn't expected to hold the person up though. I can't quite tell from panel 4 whether Roy is resting on top of the dino's horn or is being levitated.

The problem I see with Telekinetic Maneuver is that it seems to require physical contact and Laurin doesn't look to be touching Roy.

[Porthos]

Another option is Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm).

If she is a nomad (given her spamming of Wormhole, it's a decent enough bet), that would have required her to go 'off list' for two separate powers. Read Thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/readThoughts.htm)/Mind Probe (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindProbe.htm) (I think it is far likelier to be the former than the later, given the circumstances and Nale wanting to protect secrets but not minding 'surface thoughts' to be had) and this one.

I can see her using Expanded Knowledge once to pick up another power. But twice? That seems a stretch. Sure, there are other ways to get powers. But I still think telekinetic maneuver fits the situation as described perfectly.


The problem I see with Telekinetic Maneuver is that it seems to require physical contact and Laurin doesn't look to be touching Roy.

I hate to get into RAW/RAI, but does it actually say that? Given that range is listed as medium, I could see someone arguing that they are simply using their mind to do those options and not their body.

If the person has to be physcially doing those things though, then I suppose it has to be Control Body. With Laurin spamming the Psychic Chirurgery loophole probably.

ETA::: The actual statblock:


Telekinetic Maneuver
Psychokinesis [Force]
Level: Psion/wilder 4
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 7

You can affect a foe by concentrating your mind upon its current status and the status you desire, once per round. You can perform a bull rush, a disarm, a grapple (including a pin), or a trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple attempts), you use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as normally allowed on disarm or trip attempts). No save is allowed against these attempts, but power resistance applies normally.

Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power grants a +1 bonus on your checks involving bull rush, disarm, grapple, or trip attempts.

My emphasis. Seems to me, especially in conjunction with range, that no one has to actually touch the person to do this. It's bascially using the power of your mind to knock someone around the battlefield

[ChristianSt]

Since "Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page" has made it as a Thread title, and I have zero clue what it does refer too, can someone enlighten me? (I think it is probably something D&D related, like you can do something really cool three times per day with lvl 11 - but that is only a guess)

[AKA_Bait]

I can see her using Expanded Knowledge once to pick up another power. But twice? That seems a stretch. Sure, there are other ways to get powers. But I still think telekinetic maneuver fits the situation as described perfectly.

Fair point.



I hate to get into RAW/RAI, but does it actually say that? Given that range is listed as medium, I could see someone arguing that they are simply using their mind to do those options and not their body.

Looking at it again, you are entirely correct. I see now, you are suggesting that Laurin is using the power to pin Roy? That does make sense.


Neither option seems to explain the dizzy symbol over Roy afterward, but I'm not sure that it has to as he doesn't have it while being tossed in the air.

[Mordae]

Since "Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page" has made it as a Thread title, and I have zero clue what it does refer too, can someone enlighten me? (I think it is probably something D&D related, like you can do something really cool three times per day with lvl 11 - but that is only a guess)

With base attack bonus +11, you get three iterative attacks with your primary hand (at +11/+6/+1 respectively).

[Porthos]

Looking at it again, you are entirely correct. I see now, you are suggesting that Laurin is using the power to pin Roy? That does make sense.

Yep. :smallsmile: I said Laurin was very probably pinning Roy in the last thread, but didn't mention it again here, since zimmerwald ninjaed me whilst I was making the latest iteration of the Stick Awards.

[Flame of Anor]

"Erradicated" still has an extra r.

[Shale]

And apparently always will:


The latter is deliberate: It's what I call someone who was unmade by the Snarl.

And yes, I know it's spelt wrong; it's a reference to Might and Magic VI. :smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

I really don't think we have enough information to flag Wormhole as a 9th level power. In fact, given the structure of the 2nd edition science it seems to be updated from, a lower level power that has been heavily augmented would seem more consistent.

We can do math based on the 2nd edition version of the science/power.
Doing so (and counting fewer iterations of wormhole than the previous geekery thread seems have counted up), I arrived at a minimum level of 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16285225&postcount=65) for a 2nd edition character to have sufficient PSP to match her wormhole usage.

To complete the conversion though, we would have to have to account somehow for the difference in how bonus PSP scaled vs how bonus PP scale.

Admission: I have never played 1/2E and am trying to parse textbooks, so my assumptions here could be horrible.

The primary reason I think Wormhole is 9th Level is because of its functional similarity to Gate, its main difference being the permissible destination is inverted. Also Psions get Greater Teleport as a Level 8 power, so in my mind the next logical power boost is to allow travel in two directions

In addition, the sort of augmenting to increase a Psychoportation's maximum distance and paying to maintain it over several rounds doesn't appear to exist anywhere I can see in 3.5. The best example is 2E's Dimensional Door becoming 3.5's Psionic Dimension Door: The latter's only augmentation is for manifestation time, and any difference in range is due to manifester level. In addition, Dimensional Door could be learned by a first level Psion, whereas they now need to be level 7 to get it.

Finally the base cost of DD was 4 PSP before augmentation, where Wormhole starts at 24, indicating a significantly higher level power.

But, if enough people think that reasoning doesn't hold water, I can correct it.

[ChristianSt]

With base attack bonus +11, you get three iterative attacks with your primary hand (at +11/+6/+1 respectively).
Thanks - that's a pretty nice bonus to have :)

So I guess my first question would be: Do the other characters look better spread out like that? Should I change the order of which they're presented? Should spoiler tags be used more often to hide "dormant" characters? Who would they be?
I'm fine with spreading them out (personally I think I would add a bigger separator between the groups, either making the Group-name bigger/standing more out and/or adding some kind of free space/divider line between them)

And yeah, I don't think this thread needs spoiler tags for the content (The only useful usage would imo to spoiler each group, but I don't think it is really necessary)

I'm generally against spoiler tags, because they make it require more work to find what you're looking for.

I would suggest listing the various groups in the order in which they appear in the comic, so Team Evil - Linear Guild - Sapphire Guard - Scribble - Tarquin - miscellaneous. I suppose the best ordering within a group is alphabetically with the leader at the top (e.g. Roy - Belkar - Durkon - Elan...), and I don't think there's much point any more in the distinction between current-and-former members of the Linear Guild.

$.02
I would use the same sorting type for sorting the groups and sorting within the groups. So I would list them both alphabetically or both with first appearance (with tiebreaker being alphabetically).

[Ramien]

If she is a nomad (given her spamming of Wormhole, it's a decent enough bet), that would have required her to go 'off list' for two separate powers. Read Thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/readThoughts.htm)/Mind Probe (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindProbe.htm) (I think it is far likelier to be the former than the later, given the circumstances and Nale wanting to protect secrets but not minding 'surface thoughts' to be had) and this one.

I can see her using Expanded Knowledge once to pick up another power. But twice? That seems a stretch. Sure, there are other ways to get powers. But I still think telekinetic maneuver fits the situation as described perfectly.

There is one problem with telekinetic maneuver: It uses the grapple rules. After the first successful grapple attempt, Roy would not be fully locked down - it would take a second grapple check to pin. (as well as two actions to actually complete the lock down).
A secondary problem I have with both of them, looking at the descriptions, is that either one plays to Roy's strength - either a strength based grapple check or a fort save. But since both are at a disadvantage there, it's a bit of a wash.

[Porthos]

A secondary problem I have with both of them, looking at the descriptions, is that either one plays to Roy's strength - either a strength based grapple check or a fort save. But since both are at a disadvantage there, it's a bit of a wash.

Laurin would get to use her INT mod for the grapple check though, so I don't think that's as big of a deterrent. Plus she could augment them up the wazoo.

[AKA_Bait]

There is one problem with telekinetic maneuver: It uses the grapple rules. After the first successful grapple attempt, Roy would not be fully locked down - it would take a second grapple check to pin. (as well as two actions to actually complete the lock down).

I think that there is a fair chance the grapple rules would be hand-waived by the Giant. After all, I don't even think that most 3.5 players use them.

[Porthos]

I think that there is a fair chance the grapple rules would be hand-waived by the Giant. After all, I don't even think that most 3.5 players use them.

Grapple rules (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0232.html) are famous for being nigh-incomprehensible and overly complicated (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0233.html). :smalltongue:

NOTE:::: I am sure there are plenty of people on this thread who understand them backwards and forwards and could recite them in their sleep. Even so, the meme persists. :smallwink:

Personally, I don't see pinning as being a deal breaker here.

[Kornaki]

Why does it need to be a pin? I feel like the mere act of successfully entering a grapple there would be sufficient for the page.

[Porthos]

Why does it need to be a pin? I feel like the mere act of successfully entering a grapple there would be sufficient for the page.

I suppose it doesn't. It's just being pinned is worse than being grappled.


Grappling Consequences
While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited.

No Threatened Squares
You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.

No Dexterity Bonus
You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)

No Movement
You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling.


If You’re Pinned by an Opponent

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

[RMS Oceanic]

A bit more reshuffling.

Post 1 - Team Evil, Linear Guild. LG Members unspoilered
Post 2 - Sapphire Guard, Team Tarquin
Post 3 - OOTScr, Other. Extracted Qarr from LG as he unceremoniously resigned and was working directly for the IFCC anyway. So was Sabine, but she has actual loyalty to Nale.

[Ramien]

Why does it need to be a pin? I feel like the mere act of successfully entering a grapple there would be sufficient for the page.

A pin makes you immobile and gives you a much higher penalty than just a grapple - it does not, however, make you helpless, which is one of the reason I argue for Control Body - it can apply the helpless condition, while telekinetic maneuver does not.

Edit - mostly ninja'd by Porthos, appropriately enough.

[Porthos]

A pin makes you immobile and gives you a much higher penalty than just a grapple - it does not, however, make you helpless, which is one of the reason I argue for Control Body - it can apply the helpless condition, while telekinetic maneuver does not.

Whose downside is a fort save which is not augmentable (telekinetic maneuver, as I noted, is augmentable which means that Laurin could theoretically pump up the checks to blow by Roy's str mod). I see your point, I just think it has more check marks against it than TM.

Now if Laurin had said, "He's helpless now", I'd conceed the point. But since she 'only' said "He's locked down", it seems to me to be overkill. Much like Mind Probe is overkill for the power manifested in 913 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html).

[Sniffnoy]

For what it's worth, Girard's "Sorceror 19+" link both has "sorcerer" misspelled and doesn't actually go anywhere.

[Chronos]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but add my voice to those that say that Tarquin's epic. He's displayed an ability for which epic levels are the only in-game explanation. Yes, we do still have to ask why he was able to deflect any arrows at all, but we have to ask that regardless of his level, so it doesn't provide any relevant evidence. And he's already known to be higher-level than the already near-epic Order, and he seems to think that he's significantly higher-level than Roy ("Like something I'd have done when I was your level" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html) seems to suggest considerably more than one level difference), and he's known to have at least one associate of epic ECL. Put it all together, and we have good evidence for a claim that isn't all that extraordinary anyway.

I also agree that Wormhole is likely to be lower-leveled and augmentable. Transporting an army would require it to be the equivalent of a 9th-level power (i.e., costing at least 17 PP), but transporting a triceratops and three riders wouldn't. This is reinforced by the fact that the original 2nd edition version was, effectively, augmentable, though that's admittedly weak evidence given how different the 2nd and 3rd edition psionics systems are. In any event, it's certainly possible that it's a lower-level augmented power, which makes it problematic to prove any lower bounds using it.

And I have no strong opinion one way or the other about the layout of the different groups.

[Ramien]

Whose downside is a fort save which is not augmentable (telekinetic maneuver, as I noted, is augmentable which means that Laurin could theoretically pump up the checks to blow by Roy's str mod). I see your point, I just think it has more check marks against it than TM.

Now if Laurin had said, "He's helpless now", I'd conceed the point. But since she 'only' said "He's locked down", it seems to me to be overkill. Much like Mind Probe is overkill for the power manifested in 913 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html).

Completely understandable. I think I'm just weighing the downsides differently, and trying to conserve Laurin's PP - and considering both are the same level power, I wouldn't consider either one overkill.

[Kornaki]

I actually no longer think that telekinetic maneuver or control body is sufficient. Roy is gored on the lower middle horn - in the fourth panel it looks like he's being held up by a horn, but it's the wrong horn. He's actually levitating in the air it seems.

[Porthos]

I actually no longer think that telekinetic maneuver or control body is sufficient. Roy is gored on the lower middle horn - in the fourth panel it looks like he's being held up by a horn, but it's the wrong horn. He's actually levitating in the air it seems.

Psionic Levitate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/levitatePsionic.htm) could work if Laurin was a nomad (and indeed was my first guess)..... except it can't be used on unwilling people. :smallsigh: :smallsigh:

I would subscribe horn discrepancies to either art errors/limitations/perspective tricks or the possibility that Roy is being bounced around.

[Ramien]

I actually no longer think that telekinetic maneuver or control body is sufficient. Roy is gored on the lower middle horn - in the fourth panel it looks like he's being held up by a horn, but it's the wrong horn. He's actually levitating in the air it seems.

If you're really going to get into the way it looks, then you can also include the fact that the power is only encompassing Roy's head, not his whole body like you'd expect from a telekinetic power (which both powers under discussion are). While that would indicate something like Brain Lock, it has all the same weakness in its argument that Control body does except it targets Will - but is a lower level power, so Roy might be able to save anyways. That and it's still not going to lift Roy when it happens.

[Mike Havran]

Laurin's avatar is still missing and Pompey's seems to be messed up.

[Porthos]

Laurin's avatar is still missing.

From the Order of the Stick Smilie Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5294429) :smallsmile:

http://imageshack.us/a/img199/803/f5bb.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img4/8008/978c.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img841/164/qxdy.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/5797/i0m2.png

And the currently working Pompey one:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Pompey.png

[zimmerwald1915]

Psionic Levitate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/levitatePsionic.htm) could work if Laurin was a nomad (and indeed was my first guess)..... except it can't be used on unwilling people. :smallsigh: :smallsigh:

I would subscribe horn discrepancies to either art errors/limitations/perspective tricks or the possibility that Roy is being bounced around.
Take a look at Tarquin's left boot. It is on top of Roy's left arm. To me, this indicates that Roy's arm is resting on something solid. It must be, in order to support Tarquin's weight. The only thing underneath Roy is the triceratops' frill. I would argue that Roy's whole body is resting on the frill and the base of the triceratops' left horn, with Roy's head in the middle of the frill, his pelvis on the horn, and his legs dangling.

Also, not that it matters, it suggests a preliminary timeline of actions for one round and the beginning of another:

Miron casts baleful polymorph on Bloodfeast.
Roy stands up.
Trike gores Roy, who drops his sword.
Haley fires an arrow ineffectually, then flies up.
Durkon and Belkar hold their actions.
Laurin grapples Roy with telekinetic maneuver.
Tarquin pins Roy, makes a big dramatic declaration that he's dead [next round].
Elan casts lesser confusion on Trike, causing her to buck and throw everybody on top of her to the ground.
V casts prismatic spray, plane shifting Trike, burning Laurin, and electrocuting Miron.

Roy picks up his sword and stands up again.

[Gift Jeraff]

Would crafting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) the Talisman of Dorukan count as evidence that he has Craft [Epic?] Wondrous Item?

Also, I suppose the runes that ward off the monsters should go in his spell list.

[Dark Matter]

Tarquin took 40-or-80 points of damage... but he's untouched, so it's probably 0. Evasion?

[Ramien]

Tarquin took 40-or-80 points of damage... but he's untouched, so it's probably 0. Evasion?

It was only 20 or 40 depending on if he made his save or not. Debate continues on if it were evasion (which would require light or no armor) or a magic item that provided spell resistance or acid resistance.

[b_jonas]

Could you modify Durkon's entry so it lists Durkon's current domains explicitly, or, if we don't know the domains, explicitly say that.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think the absence of domains is explicit enough for us to infer we don't know what they are. For the arcane casters we generally don't say that we don't know what spells they have. And that indeed is where we stand with Durkon: Until a scene where he refreshes his spells comes along, we don't know where he stands, and maybe not even then.

[Coat]

.... While that would indicate something like Brain Lock, it has all the same weakness in its argument that Control body does except it targets Will - but is a lower level power, so Roy might be able to save anyways. That and it's still not going to lift Roy when it happens.

Brain Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/brainLock.htm) looks perfect to me for Laurin's attack on Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html), though.



Wormhole gives you all the battlefield mobility of Greater Teleport, which is lvl 8 for a Psion, but unlike Teleport, doesn't require you actually move to the target point - so you can open up a wormhole for a rogue to make a sneak attack, and then close it again before the enemy gets a chance to respond, or without the rogue or caster having to enter a hostile environment.

And unlike teleport, you could stick one end in a volcano, and use it to pour lava all over your foes, or their city. Or you can use it to put an army inside the enemy banqueting hall. Or...

And unlike a wizard or sorcerer, who only get a couple of castings of their level 9 powers, a Psion can manifest theirs, as we've seen, a LOT of times. For a powerful battlefield control and utility spell like this, that's a huge edge.

For a Wizard, with the ability to cast it say 3 or 4 times per day, and needing to ration its use - yeah, maybe lvl 8. For a Psion: lvl 9.

Why do you think Psionic Greater Teleport is a level higher than the arcane version?

[Chronos]

We don't actually know that Wormhole has no chance of landing off-target. Teleport might be the proper comparison, not Greater Teleport.

[zimmerwald1915]

We don't actually know that Wormhole has no chance of landing off-target. Teleport might be the proper comparison, not Greater Teleport.
Come on. Laurin has planted more than six wormholes precisely to her satisfaction (Miron is another matter). Tarquin assumed she'd be able to precisely intercept the Order, and that's just what she did. The 2E description says nothing about going off-target. I think we can safely say there's no off-target chance.

[Living Oxymoron]

Come on. Laurin has planted more than six wormholes precisely to her satisfaction (Miron is another matter). Tarquin assumed she'd be able to precisely intercept the Order, and that's just what she did. The 2E description says nothing about going off-target. I think we can safely say there's no off-target chance.

Tarquin even assumes that Laurin could open a Wormhole to the next dungeon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html), which probably she never saw or went to!

[halfeye]

Thanks for gathering the information together.

There are a few thing which could be improved. Kilkil isn't a member of Team Tarquin yet, he was in the Linear Guild, before that he was a functionary in the Empire of Blood, and presumably still is.

There isn't yet an entry in Team Tarquin for Miron, or tiger girl, though we know both their names (but I forget the latter), nor for pauldron guy, whose name isn't yet known.

Again thanks, and I'm sure these will be added as time goes by.

[Flame of Anor]

Kilkil is effectively a member of Team Tarquin, because he's Tarquin's personal aide.

[RickDaily12]

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1264/kraagorhc8.gif Kraagor (Erradicated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html))
*snip*

I object to this status under Kraagor.

Because of the current knowledge we have of the rifts (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html),) we don't actually know if his soul no longer exists... or if he is even dead.

I think a better status would be: Kraagor (Missing In Action (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html))

[Flame of Anor]

I think a better status would be: Kraagor (Missing In Action (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html))

I second this.

[RMS Oceanic]

I object to this status under Kraagor.

Because of the current knowledge we have of the rifts (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html),) we don't actually know if his soul no longer exists... or if he is even dead.

I think a better status would be: Kraagor (Missing In Action (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html))

Something, if not the Snarl, has killed from those rifts before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), In addition, 276 indicates that the eyewitnesses believe Kraagor to be dead, and Girard's jab at Soon doesn't make much sense to me if he didn't believe Kraagor was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html). Kraagor may turn out to be King of Snarlworld, but since everyone believes he's dead and nothing currently contradicts that, that's why I'd personally keep it as is until we learn otherwise.

[Pip]

Something, if not the Snarl, has killed from those rifts before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), In addition, 276 indicates that the eyewitnesses believe Kraagor to be dead, and Girard's jab at Soon doesn't make much sense to me if he didn't believe Kraagor was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html). Kraagor may turn out to be King of Snarlworld, but since everyone believes he's dead and nothing currently contradicts that, that's why I'd personally keep it as is until we learn otherwise.

I would say 'dead'. His being eradicated is mere hearsay.

[Hecuba]

Admission: I have never played 1/2E and am trying to parse textbooks, so my assumptions here could be horrible.

The primary reason I think Wormhole is 9th Level is because of its functional similarity to Gate, its main difference being the permissible destination is inverted. Also Psions get Greater Teleport as a Level 8 power, so in my mind the next logical power boost is to allow travel in two directions

In addition, the sort of augmenting to increase a Psychoportation's maximum distance and paying to maintain it over several rounds doesn't appear to exist anywhere I can see in 3.5. The best example is 2E's Dimensional Door becoming 3.5's Psionic Dimension Door: The latter's only augmentation is for manifestation time, and any difference in range is due to manifester level. In addition, Dimensional Door could be learned by a first level Psion, whereas they now need to be level 7 to get it.

Finally the base cost of DD was 4 PSP before augmentation, where Wormhole starts at 24, indicating a significantly higher level power.

But, if enough people think that reasoning doesn't hold water, I can correct it.

I believe wormhole actually started at 15 PSP (for range less than or equal to 100 ft).

I wouldn't bat an eye at wormhole being updated like you're presuming, but I also wouldn't bat one at a lower level scaling implementation.

I simply don't think we have enough information to to draw a solid conclusion. (Actually, I think the Giant might have intentionally avoided giving us definitive information).

[Dark Matter]

Do Epic fighters continue to get feats (i.e. epic feats) every other level?

[RickDaily12]

Something, if not the Snarl, has killed from those rifts before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), In addition, 276 indicates that the eyewitnesses believe Kraagor to be dead, and Girard's jab at Soon doesn't make much sense to me if he didn't believe Kraagor was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html). Kraagor may turn out to be King of Snarlworld, but since everyone believes he's dead and nothing currently contradicts that, that's why I'd personally keep it as is until we learn otherwise.

Just because the Order of the Scribble believe Kraagor is dead doesn't actually mean that he is. In which case, Girards jab at Soon still makes plenty of sense.

After what Soon told the party happened to his wife, and at this rift, it makes sense to me that the Order of the Scribble would instantly think that if a member of the party fell in, then death is inevitable. Notice how we still have the body of Mijung and yet, Kraagor is missing...

Don't forget, that as portrayed by V and Blackwing, somebody among the Gods, The Order of the Scribble, the Sapphire Guard, or Redcloak/Dark One (their knowledge on his end missing) is lying about what they say about the Snarl and its rifts. Or in the case of our paladin, maybe somebody lied and/or he is mistaken? With the facts as unclear as they are, even if it seems probable, we don't have a solid basis of what actually happens in the rifts, ans until we do, proclaiming Kraagor as dead strikes me as premature, much less "eradication". But "Missing in Action"? This strikes me as fairly accurate, regardless of the truthness of the facts. Kraagor is not deceased due to old age; he is a dwarf. So unless we have a Word of Giant stating otherwise (which I doubt he will, given what foreshadowing we see in the rift episodes) we cannot assume Kraagor to have died.

Otherwise, we may as well go ahead and decease Thog.

[halfeye]

Kilkil is effectively a member of Team Tarquin, because he's Tarquin's personal aide.
Is he though? He's something (chancellor?) in the Empire of Blood, and he seems to answer to General Tarquin of the Empire of Blood, but does he work in the other empires?

[137beth]

Do Epic fighters continue to get feats (i.e. epic feats) every other level?

Yes. They get an additional list of (mostly bad) epic fighter feats (the ELH strongly encouraged you to homebrew feats...sticking to the list in the ELH gives a fighter similar to the core-only fighter, with even fewer options, creating all the normal issues that come with it). They can get Epic Leadership and Ledgendary Commander as fighter feats (if they can get their charisma up enough).

[Emanick]

Just because the Order of the Scribble believe Kraagor is dead doesn't actually mean that he is. In which case, Girards jab at Soon still makes plenty of sense.

After what Soon told the party happened to his wife, and at this rift, it makes sense to me that the Order of the Scribble would instantly think that if a member of the party fell in, then death is inevitable. Notice how we still have the body of Mijung and yet, Kraagor is missing...

Don't forget, that as portrayed by V and Blackwing, somebody among the Gods, The Order of the Scribble, the Sapphire Guard, or Redcloak/Dark One (their knowledge on his end missing) is lying about what they say about the Snarl and its rifts. Or in the case of our paladin, maybe somebody lied and/or he is mistaken? With the facts as unclear as they are, even if it seems probable, we don't have a solid basis of what actually happens in the rifts, ans until we do, proclaiming Kraagor as dead strikes me as premature, much less "eradication". But "Missing in Action"? This strikes me as fairly accurate, regardless of the truthness of the facts. Kraagor is not deceased due to old age; he is a dwarf. So unless we have a Word of Giant stating otherwise (which I doubt he will, given what foreshadowing we see in the rift episodes) we cannot assume Kraagor to have died.

Otherwise, we may as well go ahead and decease Thog.

We have no reason to believe that Kraagor is missing, rather than simply dead. The fact that there is a claw descending towards Kraagor's head - just like the claw that killed Mijung, whose body remained outside the rift - in the panel before the former's death strongly implies that Kraagor was killed outside of the rift, not by somehow falling in. And a corpse is a corpse, whether killed by the Snarl or anything else.

[RickDaily12]

We have no reason to believe that Kraagor is missing, rather than simply dead. The fact that there is a claw descending towards Kraagor's head - just like the claw that killed Mijung, whose body remained outside the rift - in the panel before the former's death strongly implies that Kraagor was killed outside of the rift, not by somehow falling in. And a corpse is a corpse, whether killed by the Snarl or anything else.
Um...

We do not have a corpse, nor was that fight scene even remotely a moment before death, my friend. A claw coming out at Soon and Kraagor (in a scribble description, much less an absolute scene of the moment) does not instantly mean someone is about to die. How was that ever established in what we were given?

[Emanick]

Um...

We do not have a corpse, nor was that fight scene even remotely a moment before death, my friend. A claw coming out at Soon and Kraagor (in a scribble description, much less an absolute scene of the moment) does not instantly mean someone is about to die. How was that ever established in what we were given?

It was implied extremely strongly that that panel was the climactic moment of the fight, with Lirian about to seal the rift on Soon's orders while Kraagor's life hung in the balance. Hence why Girard blamed Soon for Kraagor's death, etc. The only reasonable conclusion to draw from that scene is this is how Kraagor died, or at least how the Scribblers claimed he died. But since this event apparently led to the breakout of their Order, it strains credibility that they would have acted in collusion to lie about this event, especially since the accusation Girard's recorded illusion levels at Soon lines up pretty much exactly with what is depicted in that panel, and Soon evidently believed strongly in honor. Why would he lie to his own paladins about what took place?

The fact that you don't think the scene at Kraagor's Gate takes place a moment before the aforementioned dwarf's death indicates to me that you really don't understand what that panel is supposed to convey anyway, so maybe you should reread it before we continue this conversation.

My apologies if this post is a bit snippy, it's nearly 5 AM here and I'm not too great at being amiable in the predawn hours. No offense intended.

[RustyVenture]

I guess the sense I always got about Kraagor's possible demise and why Girard was so upset is that he wasn't necessarily killed by the snarl but somehow sealed or something by the Gate-creation spell cast by Lirian and Dorukan on Soon's orders. So I guess my vote - which given I'm not really active here probably counts for naught - is not for "erradicated" or even dead, but just "Fate Unknown." As a dwarf, he certainly could still be alive in the current time, but he may have been trapped in that rift world by the Gate without a means of escape due to the gates, or he may have been killed by the snarl or killed by the Gate process or sealed up in some soul-bind type of situation by the Gate-creation spell. As I don't believe there's enough evidence to support any one theory, I think leaving it as unknown is best.

On an unrelated note, what about adding Aarindarius, V's former master, to the thread? He appears in OOPCs and as I recall he also is mentioned and even possibly appears in the main comic around Darth V time. We even have a spell of his, Bixby's evicting hand. Given their proximity to the elven lands, I think it may be worthwhile to pop him in...

[Flame of Anor]

So I guess my vote is not for "erradicated" or even dead, but just "Fate Unknown."

Which is what "Missing in Action" means. I agree, there simply has been too much doubt cast on what actually happens with the Snarl and the rifts. Remember, everyone, the Snarl has never even been seen by the reader or by any living, mortal character in the comic. All we have is hearsay.

[Steven]

Clearly Kraagor is just pining for the fjords.


... I'll see myself out.

[ChristianSt]

I don't want to end this discussion about Kraagor's status (ok, maybe I do want to end it :smallwink:), but from the rules of this thread it is imo pretty clear:


Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

The only information we have is from Shojo (and through him from the Order of the Scribble): He is dead (ok - I think the word "dead" doesn't appear anywhere, but they speak of sacrifice and a tomb; and I think if they thought he where only "missing in action" they would have searched for him).
And using "er(r)adicated" as killed by Snarl instead the normal "deceased" (by the way: I would streamline that, some entries say "deceased", other say "Deceased") is a fine alteration.

But using something like "missing in action" is wrong, because we have no indication that "dead" is not true.

[RickDaily12]

Allow me to suggest that all the following are consistent statements:


Something, if not the Snarl, has killed from those rifts before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), In addition, 276 indicates that the eyewitnesses believe Kraagor to be dead, and Girard's jab at Soon doesn't make much sense to me if he didn't believe Kraagor was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html).

It was implied extremely strongly that that panel was the climactic moment of the fight, with Lirian about to seal the rift on Soon's orders while Kraagor's life hung in the balance. Hence why Girard blamed Soon for Kraagor's death, etc. The only reasonable conclusion to draw from that scene is this is how Kraagor died, or at least how the Scribblers claimed he died.

Just because the Order of the Scribble believe Kraagor is dead doesn't actually mean that he is. In which case, Girards jab at Soon still makes plenty of sense.

After what Soon told the party happened to his wife, and at this rift, it makes sense to me that the Order of the Scribble would instantly think that if a member of the party fell in, then death is inevitable. Notice how we still have the body of Mijung and yet, Kraagor is missing...

But since this event apparently led to the breakout of their Order, it strains credibility that they would have acted in collusion to lie about this event, especially since the accusation Girard's recorded illusion levels at Soon lines up pretty much exactly with what is depicted in that panel, and Soon evidently believed strongly in honor. Why would he lie to his own paladins about what took place?


Don't forget, that as portrayed by V and Blackwing, somebody among the Gods, The Order of the Scribble, the Sapphire Guard, or Redcloak/Dark One (their knowledge on his end missing) is lying about what they say about the Snarl and its rifts. Or in the case of our paladin, maybe somebody lied and/or he is mistaken?

We do not have a corpse, [...] A claw coming out at Soon and Kraagor (in a scribble description, much less an absolute scene of the moment) does not instantly mean someone is about to die.

Which is what "Missing in Action" means. I agree, there simply has been too much doubt cast on what actually happens with the Snarl and the rifts. Remember, everyone, the Snarl has never even been seen by the reader or by any living, mortal character in the comic. All we have is hearsay.

We have what we know now in the rifts from Vaarsuvius, and we know the stories the Order heard from Shojo are misleading at best. In the case of every paladin who cannot lie, lying is NOT being misled by someone first.

As has been pointed out, fate unknown (I.e. Missing in Action) seems to be able to fit the bill since the facts that we have been told by Shojo are being called into question. All we know is, someone lied, and everyone who knows of this story are telling the same lie.

And the only reason I accept Mijung's death is because her corpse was visibly left behind to Soon (I don't necessarily accept that she was killed by the Snarl, this is what Soon believes; I merely accept that she has died). With Kraagor, this is not the case.

To base Kraagor as eradicated based on what we see, is again going to be grounds that we eliminate Thog. If we do not see enough cause to do the second, I claim we cannot the first either.

[dps]

Is he though? He's something (chancellor?) in the Empire of Blood, and he seems to answer to General Tarquin of the Empire of Blood, but does he work in the other empires?

Tarquin referred to him at one point as "my accountant", which doens't directly answer the question, but regardles, I don't think he should be listed as a member of Team Tarquin. He's clearly not an adventurer, and while he seems to pretty much know what's going on with the shadow game Tarquin and company are playing, he's also clearly not one of the 6 members of the adventuring group. He's more of a hireling/minion/follower type.

[ChristianSt]

And the only reason I accept Mijung's death is because her corpse was visibly left behind to Soon (I don't necessarily accept that she was killed by the Snarl, this is what Soon believes; I merely accept that she has died). With Kraagor, this is not the case.

I think if someone accepts Mijung's death, they also should accept Kraagor's death: They both are "hearsay": The complete Crayons of Time is only a story told by Shojo. Nothing necessarily happened as shown (the same is true for the crayon part in SoD).

And from what was told by Shojo both characters are dead.
Thinking that one is dead and the other not, because it might be plausible that one still lives, isn't sound reasoning (I wouldn't be shocked to see Kraagor living - but for the purpose of this thread he should be listed as "dead/deceased/er(r)adicated/anything that shows he is dead")




On an unrelated note, what about adding Aarindarius, V's former master, to the thread? He appears in OOPCs and as I recall he also is mentioned and even possibly appears in the main comic around Darth V time. We even have a spell of his, Bixby's evicting hand. Given their proximity to the elven lands, I think it may be worthwhile to pop him in...
He is at 2 appearances in-comic (630 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) and 634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)) + 1 appearances print-only.
From the current thread rules it is clear that this isn't enough (btw, have we anything to say about the :roach:? Going with the Number of Appearance thread, they are frequent characters :smallcool:).
Maybe we could change the rule to include "mentors" and such (because I think if we include Aarindarius we should also include Julio Scoundrél and Sir Francois, which had both more appearances).

If Aarindarius will show up in the future then he might be included for other reason.

[Kornaki]

Everything in the crayons story is hearsay - how do we even know this alleged Kraagor even existed? It's all hearsay, they could have just never had a dwarf in the party and made up an elaborate lie afterwards.

[Chronos]

Remember, everyone, this is just electrons, not stone engravings. So we list Kraagor as killed by the Snarl, for now, because that's the best information we have available to us right now. When and if we get better information that contradicts that (note: Actually contradicts it, not just casting doubt on it), then we can edit the entry. The entry can be edited at any time, not just when we get the first hint of doubt.

And on another note, Dorukan certainly has at least Craft Wondrous Item, to make his Talisman. He probably also has Craft Epic Wondrous Item, but I don't think we have solid evidence that the Talisman is an epic item.

And we don't know nearly enough about Aarindarius to justify an entry on him, just one single spell.

[AKA_Bait]

And on another note, Dorukan certainly has at least Craft Wondrous Item, to make his Talisman. He probably also has Craft Epic Wondrous Item, but I don't think we have solid evidence that the Talisman is an epic item.

What about the headband? Has a consensus been reached as to whether cloister is an epic level spell?

[Emanick]

We have what we know now in the rifts from Vaarsuvius, and we know the stories the Order heard from Shojo are misleading at best.

We actually don't know this. Nothing we've seen inside the rift contradicts anything that Shojo said. True, the Snarl isn't visible inside it, and there is a world inside - either the first world, the one the Snarl evidently destroyed, or one that was rebuilt somehow after the initial destruction, possibly by the Snarl itself or whatever else lives in the rift. The Snarl could easily be within SnarlWorld, the way it is shown in the memorable Scribble panel in which Thor kicks World 2.0 and Loki warns him not to taunt the god-killing abomination. Or a number of other theories could be true. All we know for sure is that our information is incomplete.

I'm loath to start invalidating things that characters have said that are currently considered sound for the purposes of this thread, because once we open that can of worms it's going to be almost impossible to close it again. It's extremely difficult to input new information under the burden of proof we already use. Let's keep the lines drawn where they are.

[evilbob]

I'll chime in and agree that Team Tarquin seem to be closer to level 20. Depending on how the narrative goes, at least so far we can sort of assume Team Evil is a higher level (since they're the "final boss"), but I doubt it's by much. Retiring and running a country is something you do as more of an epic character. Plus - and I don't know if anyone's mentioned this so far - but my recollection of psionics is that you spend power points on your powers, and opening ~half a dozen probably-level-9 wormholes seems like it'd eat up a lot of points. Assuming that's not her only use in battle - and I think that's a safe assumption - Laurin has got to have tons and tons of them. (Anyone have any numbers on how much that would have cost so far?) I think V's comment about drawing out the battle was a much better tactical move than we've realized so far: they spent a ton of effort on merely catching up.

Also, it seems to be semi-accepted that old-school Team Tarquin are using a lot of 2E rules while the younger OotS are using 3.5. That's hilarious. One more level of awesome. :)

[Shale]

What about the headband? Has a consensus been reached as to whether cloister is an epic level spell?

Celia specifically describes it as epic magic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) But does the spell focus for an epic spell need to be an Epic Wondrous Item? Legitimate question, I haven't the slightest clue.

[Kornaki]

On the SRD the epic magic rules make it sound like its not even possible to have a focus, unless you have a divine focus when using the life and heal seeds (which the spell/focus are clearly not examples of). I think the cloister headband is pure homebrew but I could be wrong.

[hamishspence]

While "expensive focus" is not on the list of Mitigating Factors- there may be existing epic spells with such a Mitigating Factor listed in the description.

[orrion]

Off-the-current-topic question while I was cruising the characters for the heck of it:

In Zz'dtri's section it says he has Magic Circle Against Evil, and then links to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html

I see absolutely nothing in that comic about a Magic Circle. What am I missing? All I see is a Summon Monster spell (which isn't listed in Zz'dtri's spell list, either).

[hamishspence]

I think the idea is that he's supposed to be using the circle, focussed inward, to control monsters bound by planar binding-type spells:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm

[Shale]

Zz'ditri and Durkon are summoning fiends, not monsters. That requires one of the Planar Binding variants, and the only way to get a creature summoned through Planar Binding to obey you is to summon it into a Magic Circle Against [its alignment], which acts as a trap from which it cannot be released until it agrees to aid you.

[hamishspence]

Actually, if Durkon was 17th level, he could get a barbed devil via Summon Monster IX instead of Planar Ally.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIX.htm

However, since he prepared planar ally earlier

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html

it's far more likely that he is using that spell. Especially since there's no indication of him being 17th level, and possibly some indications against it.

[Shale]

Yeah, somehow I forgot about him having Ally prepped. It's divine only, though, so the point holds for Zz'ditri.

[SavageWombat]

Actually, if Durkon was 17th level, he could get a barbed devil via Summon Monster IX instead of Planar Ally.


Not to mention that he said the spell would last all day, instead of the 17 rounds Summon Monster would last. He even refers to the terms of the bargain. So it's clearly Planar Ally.

[hamishspence]

Yeah, somehow I forgot about him having Ally prepped. It's divine only, though, so the point holds for Zz'ditri.I'm not sure if the piscoloth in Fiend Folio (what Zz'dtri appears to be summoning) is summonable via the Summon Monster line of spells.

But even if it was, given the extremely short duration of those spells, Planar Binding makes far more sense, especially since he wouldn't need the Circle otherwise.

[orrion]

Zz'ditri and Durkon are summoning fiends, not monsters. That requires one of the Planar Binding variants, and the only way to get a creature summoned through Planar Binding to obey you is to summon it into a Magic Circle Against [its alignment], which acts as a trap from which it cannot be released until it agrees to aid you.

Ah, got it.

Thanks for clarifications.

[Kurald Galain]

Remember, everyone, this is just electrons, not stone engravings. So we list Kraagor as killed by the Snarl, for now, because that's the best information we have available to us right now. When and if we get better information that contradicts that (note: Actually contradicts it, not just casting doubt on it), then we can edit the entry. The entry can be edited at any time, not just when we get the first hint of doubt.
Yes, this. It has been stated outright in the comic that Kraagor is deceased. There is all kinds of speculation that he might still be alive, but this thread is about in-comic evidence.

[Flame of Anor]

Eh, I suppose you're right.

[Reddish Mage]

I'll chime in and agree that Team Tarquin seem to be closer to level 20. Depending on how the narrative goes, at least so far we can sort of assume Team Evil is a higher level (since they're the "final boss"), but I doubt it's by much. Retiring and running a country is something you do as more of an epic character. Plus - and I don't know if anyone's mentioned this so far - but my recollection of psionics is that you spend power points on your powers, and opening ~half a dozen probably-level-9 wormholes seems like it'd eat up a lot of points. Assuming that's not her only use in battle - and I think that's a safe assumption - Laurin has got to have tons and tons of them. (Anyone have any numbers on how much that would have cost so far?) I think V's comment about drawing out the battle was a much better tactical move than we've realized so far: they spent a ton of effort on merely catching up.

Also, it seems to be semi-accepted that old-school Team Tarquin are using a lot of 2E rules while the younger OotS are using 3.5. That's hilarious. One more level of awesome. :)

I don't have a psionics handbook anymore, but the right Laurin seemed to be burning through her powers seems incredible. What is the upper limit of Power Points a 20th level Psion would have?

Where is the old-school 2E rules other than (possibly) some a Psionic power?

[orrion]

I don't have a psionics handbook anymore, but the right Laurin seemed to be burning through her powers seems incredible. What is the upper limit of Power Points a 20th level Psion would have?


Going by the srd20 tables, she could have a maximum of 493 at 20th level (343 base, 150 for an Intelligence of 40-41). I doubt she has an Intelligence score that high, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

Going by the srd20 tables, she could have a maximum of 493 at 20th level (343 base, 150 for an Intelligence of 40-41). I doubt she has an Intelligence score that high, though.
At level 20, she could have an intelligence as high as 34 using reasonable bonuses (18 base + 5 level + 6 enhancement + 5 inherent). The only thing to suggest she's higher than level 17, however, is circumstantial: she might be as high as level 23, which was Malack's ECL. At level 17, she could have an intelligence as high as 33. At that level, and with that intelligence, she would have a pool of 343 power points (250 base + 93 intelligence). Her minimum stats, assuming wormhole is a level 9 power, are level 17, intelligence 19. At that level, and with that intelligence, she would have a pool of 284 (250 base + 34 intelligence).

So Laurin, assuming wormhole is a level 9 power, could have between 284 and 343 power points.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I don't have a psionics handbook anymore, but the right Laurin seemed to be burning through her powers seems incredible. What is the upper limit of Power Points a 20th level Psion would have?

Where is the old-school 2E rules other than (possibly) some a Psionic power?


Going by the srd20 tables, she could have a maximum of 493 at 20th level (343 base, 150 for an Intelligence of 40-41). I doubt she has an Intelligence score that high, though.

Take home message: Laurin used a lot of power doing that, but she probably has a lot more. Having a lot of "juice" is a benefit of being a psion, with the drawback that you get a limited choice of powers, even more limited than a sorceror.

[hamishspence]

Going by the srd20 tables, she could have a maximum of 493 at 20th level (343 base, 150 for an Intelligence of 40-41). I doubt she has an Intelligence score that high, though.

Since it's a calculation (and the table just expresses the results of that calculation) - psychic characters with manifesting stats higher than 41, continue to increase in amount of bonus power points.

A 20th level psion with an Int of 42-43 will have 160 bonus power points, if Int 44-45 will have 170 power points, and so on.

[warrl]

A few things regarding Kraagor:

We've been told in-comic that he's dead - but only by characters of questionable reliability and characters with second-hand information passed through characters of questionable reliability.

And even if the original source characters honestly believe he's dead, that isn't necessarily the case. He could have been taken through the rift just before it was sealed, so everyone on this side is assuming the Snarl killed him - but it didn't, and he is actually quite healthy.

Also: what if he was IN the rift - partly through it, and partly not - when it was sealed? Perhaps he was killed, not by the Snarl, but by the sealing, which was done on Soon's explicit order. This would add some small measure of justification to Girard's dislike of Soon.

(My opinion? My opinion - which I am absolutely 100% certain is correct - is that I don't know.)

[orrion]

A few things regarding Kraagor:

We've been told in-comic that he's dead - but only by characters of questionable reliability and characters with second-hand information passed through characters of questionable reliability.

And even if the original source characters honestly believe he's dead, that isn't necessarily the case. He could have been taken through the rift just before it was sealed, so everyone on this side is assuming the Snarl killed him - but it didn't, and he is actually quite healthy.

Also: what if he was IN the rift - partly through it, and partly not - when it was sealed? Perhaps he was killed, not by the Snarl, but by the sealing, which was done on Soon's explicit order. This would add some small measure of justification to Girard's dislike of Soon.

(My opinion? My opinion - which I am absolutely 100% certain is correct - is that I don't know.)

And you would suggest he get changed to be alive based on what conclusive evidence? Oh, right - you don't have any.

As has been said elsewhere, he's dead until there's proof he isn't.

[Porthos]

We only know that Kraagor existed by the people telling his story*. They claim he's dead.

We should go with their story until given proof otherwise.

It really is as simple as that, IMO.

* Technically he gets a crayon flashback in Start of Darkness. But the person telling the tale has no idea about Kraagor at the time and it's just an incidental cameo.

[warrl]

And you would suggest he get changed to be alive based on what conclusive evidence? Oh, right - you don't have any.

I suggested changing something? Where did I do that?

[SavageWombat]

I don't know - I see your point about trusting the scribblers, but I think the story made it clear that Kraagor stayed behind to block the Snarl's path, and the implication is that the gate was sealed with him still off-plane. So they would logically assume he was dead, whether they had proof or not.

The fact that so many readers see an obvious "how do we know" plot possibility suggests that ambiguity might be better here.

[orrion]

I suggested changing something? Where did I do that?

That what did you do? Post a bunch of random information without a premise?

[ChristianSt]

I don't know - I see your point about trusting the scribblers, but I think the story made it clear that Kraagor stayed behind to block the Snarl's path, and the implication is that the gate was sealed with him still off-plane. So they would logically assume he was dead, whether they had proof or not.

The fact that so many readers see an obvious "how do we know" plot possibility suggests that ambiguity might be better here.

But with listing him as "eradicated" it even suggests a bit ambiguity - because he is the online "dead" character not listed as "deceased". Also it links directly to the panel in question, so everyone can see what kind of proof that is.

If we listed him as "MIA", where is the proof that all other "deceased" characters are still dead? Some of them could certainly be resurrected in the meantime and pop up next strip. [Sure the likelihood of it being Kraagor is much higher than for Miko or Yokyok, but it still is in each case a likelihood, which could certainly be greater than 0]


Edit: and as Porthos said: When we don't trust Shojo/Order of the Scribble that Kraagor is dead, why should we even trust them that an entity called Kraagor has existed/exists at all? We have only seen him in Crayon drawings and Serini's diary.

[halfeye]

If we listed him as "MIA", where is the proof that all other "deceased" characters are still dead? Some of them could certainly be resurrected in the meantime and pop up next strip. [Sure the likelihood of it being Kraagor is much higher than for Miko or Yokyok, but it still is in each case a likelihood, which could certainly be greater than 0]
The main thing about MIA is that it is a catch all that could well include the subject being dead, but might also mean they are running around free somewhere else, held as a prisoner or anything. It mainly means "at this point in time, we don't know". That seems pretty appropriate for Kraagor at this time, because clearly, we don't know, and there is something strange going on, which may or may not affect his live/dead status, and there is a lot of doubt. It's not a case of there's room for doubt that he might be dead, it's more that the odds of him actually being spirit killed in the way we were told he was looks likely to be less than 50%. He could be dead some other way, or alive, but the actual given explanation is looking like less than 50% likely to be true, and that's why I'd vote for MIA as his current description.

[Porthos]

Edit: and as Porthos said: When we don't trust Shojo/Order of the Scribble that Kraagor is dead, why should we even trust them that an entity called Kraagor has existed/exists at all? We have only seen him in Crayon drawings and Serini's diary.


And as I said in another thread, it is almost certain that Girard thought he was dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html).

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u93/Reed_Copperstrand/Girard_brow_new.png: "It should have been you that died in that rift, you cowardly son of a bitch."

So Girard thinks he's dead as well.

Do I think he's dead? Well, I lean to the idea that we haven't been told the full story and that Kraagor might very well be alive. But 'mights and maybes' don't fly in this thread. Direct evidence does. And the direct evidence we have is: Kraagor dead.

Now it may come to light that the people giving us that information turned out to be incorrect or that they themselves made faulty presumptions. Until that time comes where there is direct evidence that shows Kraagor is in fact not dead (or at least not killed there), then by the standards of this thread we should say that he is in fact dead.

....

Let me put it another way. We know for a fact that a skeleton was indeed in Girard's tomb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html). We're pretty darn sure (as in 99.99999% sure) that it is indeed Girard. But there has been a persistent, if exceedingly minor, theory running through the board that someone else's body was stuffed in there and it wasn't Girard at all. Should some sort of proviso be in the thread acknowledging the possibility of being wrong since we didn't see the on-screen death? I think not.

Now the idea that isn't Girard's skeleton is a pretty outlandish one. But it isn't that far from "We didn't see it happen, therefore we really don't know" that seems to the main thrust of the Kraagor stuff.

In the end, we've been told that Kraagor died. We have some reason to doubt that we've know the whole story as of yet. But until that day, I think we should go with what the primary evidence tells us and revise it when new direct evidence comes to life.

Heck, said evidence could indeed be a person in-comic claiming he's alive or the Order running into some direct evidence that shows that Kraagor was doing things after he supposedly died. But until then I say leave him on the dead list.

[Steven]

I for one think that Nale isn't dead. T just had a fancy teleport dagger that switched him with a corpse that was magically altered to resemble him.

Now I could be wrong but I think my random theory is of equal weight as the in comic reactions of the characters so if we could just change his status to MIA plzkthnx. :smallannoyed:

[Porthos]

I'm going to try, this time hopefully simply :smalltongue:, to sum up the argument here.

This thread is NOT about predicting the future of the comic, nor 'guessing' things. It is simply describing what we have seen and have been told. There is some amount of extrapolation since Rich isn't in the habit of spelling out each and every mechanical point of the characters, but it is still grounded on facts delivered by the comic.

If the thread holds wrong information, it gets changed when new information comes to light.

At the moment, we've been told that Kraagor is dead. No one in comic has suggested he is alive.

No. One.

If information comes to light that shows he is in fact, not dead. Or in fact, even missing, then the information in this thread gets revised. It'll happen pretty quickly I bet, as well. :smallwink:

Until then, stick with what the comic has told us. No pun intended. :smallwink:

[ChristianSt]

Let me put it another way. We know for a fact that a skeleton was indeed in Girard's tomb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html). We're pretty darn sure (as in 99.99999% sure) that it is indeed Girard. But there has been a persistent, if exceedingly minor, theory running through the board that someone else's body was stuffed in there and it wasn't Girard at all. Should some sort of proviso be in the thread acknowledging the possibility of being wrong since we didn't see the on-screen death? I think not.

To go even one (extreme) step further: Do we even have a real proof that that this was in fact Girard's Gate?
It could be possible that Girard is working secretly with the IFCC and after they told him about Familicide he build a fake-Gate with a dead fake-family and the Gate is still somewhere else, because he was able to move it somehow (If it even exists!).

So by discarding Kraagor's death imo we should also discard all other things which might be false - since we don't know any probabilities which scenario is how likely.

Sure, I really would not be surprised to see a living Kraagor: I would give it an probability of around 50%. But that is only a guess. Some other probability guesses I would say are: There is no Kraagor: around 0.1%, Girard alive around 1%, the crazy scenario I described earlier: around 0.0000000001% (and probably that is even way too high, but I don't want to spam countless 0's or do some advanced math to get a really small number - maybe I should simple use some epsilon for it :smallconfused:).

But since that are all guesses (and nobody here can do better than guess other scenarios and numbers), I think we should either discard all of them or include all of them. Including all is just simply crazy and a bad idea and would make this thread just crazy rumbling. So we should just discard them all, which leads to Kraagor's status being dead for now.

[Flame of Anor]

I'm okay with listing Kraagor as dead, but can we at least list him as "dead" and not "er(r)adicated"? Even if the Snarl did kill him, we have no solid evidence about under what circumstances it eradicates people. Maybe it only happens if they fall into the rift, and it just kills them normally if they're outside.

[orrion]

I'm okay with listing Kraagor as dead, but can we at least list him as "dead" and not "er(r)adicated"? Even if the Snarl did kill him, we have no solid evidence about under what circumstances it eradicates people. Maybe it only happens if they fall into the rift, and it just kills them normally if they're outside.

Then why wasn't Mijung resurrected by Soon?

[Flame of Anor]

Then why wasn't Mijung resurrected by Soon?

We don't know. Isn't that the point that people have been making here? We shouldn't be unnecessarily specific.

[Taelas]

The main thing about MIA is that it is a catch all that could well include the subject being dead, but might also mean they are running around free somewhere else, held as a prisoner or anything. It mainly means "at this point in time, we don't know". That seems pretty appropriate for Kraagor at this time, because clearly, we don't know, and there is something strange going on, which may or may not affect his live/dead status, and there is a lot of doubt. It's not a case of there's room for doubt that he might be dead, it's more that the odds of him actually being spirit killed in the way we were told he was looks likely to be less than 50%. He could be dead some other way, or alive, but the actual given explanation is looking like less than 50% likely to be true, and that's why I'd vote for MIA as his current description.

We've been told straight-out that Kraagor is dead. It may be incorrect, but it is still what we have been told.

If he, at some future point, turns out not to be dead, we can simply update his entry then. There's little reason to try and cover every possible scenario; that's a futile effort, no matter how far we could get.

[orrion]

We don't know. Isn't that the point that people have been making here? We shouldn't be unnecessarily specific.

We shouldn't be unnecessarily ambiguous, either.

We've been told the Snarl unmakes people. All the evidence we have points to Kraagor and Mijung being killed by the Snarl, ergo they were unmade.

[Flame of Anor]

Should Tarquin be listed with Handle Animal? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html)

[Codyage]

I think it would be best to change Kraagor's status as "Unmade/In the Rift".

Soon's wife was hit by the snarl, and died. All though the narrator does not say they found a body, the visual shows Soon holding her.

I believe Soon holding his dead wife, might be for a more visual impact, rather than what exactly happen. (Being caught by the Snarl in the rift, and unable to be resurrected.)

Because immediately after, Lirian is looking for missing wildlife. Why would the Snarl leave Soon's wife, but unmake everything else?

From what we know we have had goblins, chickens, other animals, and, dwarves all get affected by the rift. Why would Mijung be the one exception to this?

If we go by the idea that the Snarl, unmakes/pulls everything into the rift, then that would be a good standard to hold to.

If it is changed to "Unmade/In the Rift", it would hold the idea that Kraagor could be unmade, and unable to be returned to life, or he is in the rift and unable to be saved.

It would be a better neutral term, since we aren't sure if anything can survive in there, and if required it can be changed later.

[ChristianSt]

Soon's wife was hit by the snarl, and died. All though the narrator does not say they found a body, the visual shows Soon holding her.

All crayon drawings are also content of the narration - it makes no difference if it is in one narrator-box inside the Crayon of Time strips or visually shown. So Mijung's body could be a random story enhancement Shojo added because it makes the story better.

The only informations we have about Kraagor's status is:
Shojo told in the Crayons of Time that Kraagor died (And I don't think we can realistically conclude anything like "He might be inside Snarl-world" from that passage). We have nearly zero other information about Kraagor's status (and none of that information contradicts "Kraagor is dead").

Personally, before changing Kraagor's status to "MIA", I would completely remove his entry.

[ReaderAt2046]

I'd like to cast a vote for Wormhole being a level 9 power. Also, Laurin's avatar still doesn't work.

[halfeye]

Personally, before changing Kraagor's status to "MIA", I would completely remove his entry.
That seems very severe. What does missing in action mean to you that's so bad?

Prisoners of war from the West during WW2 were told it was their duty to escape and return to their own side. POWs from the Soviet Union were apparently at serious risk of being tried and shot as enemy infiltrators if they escaped and returned home.

Being from the west, MIA is just a collection of all the "we don't know" outcomes to me. Does it mean something different or dishonourable to you?

[ChristianSt]

That seems very severe. What does missing in action mean to you that's so bad?

Prisoners of war from the West during WW2 were told it was their duty to escape and return to their own side. POWs from the Soviet Union were apparently at serious risk of being tried and shot as enemy infiltrators if they escaped and returned home.

Being from the west, MIA is just a collection of all the "we don't know" outcomes to me. Does it mean something different or dishonourable to you?

I have nothing against the term "MIA". It is possibly the term I would find suited best (or maybe using the complete form "missing in action") if it where "true" (in-comic).
I have something against using speculated/derived information. If Shojo would have said "and Kraagor was not seen again and they thought he was dead" then the right choice would to list him as "MIA" (or "status unknown" or whatever else that somebody might call it) - since in this case Shojo would have said he might be still alive.

But he said he is dead. And "MIA" != "dead".

And nobody (in-comic! Other forum-users are no evidence) said something that says otherwise or contradicts.

I only said that before stating false*/speculative claims, I would remove the entry complete.
(* Technically "MIA" includes "dead", so it isn't really false, but it implies that "dead" is not true. And in-comic evidence says he is "dead".)

[Also I think it isn't necessary to open a potential can of worms, so I think we shouldn't use real world analogues, even only to define terms]

[orrion]

All crayon drawings are also content of the narration - it makes no difference if it is in one narrator-box inside the Crayon of Time strips or visually shown. So Mijung's body could be a random story enhancement Shojo added because it makes the story better.

The only informations we have about Kraagor's status is:
Shojo told in the Crayons of Time that Kraagor died (And I don't think we can realistically conclude anything like "He might be inside Snarl-world" from that passage). We have nearly zero other information about Kraagor's status (and none of that information contradicts "Kraagor is dead").

Personally, before changing Kraagor's status to "MIA", I would completely remove his entry.

All other drawings are also content of the narration, so anything could be a random story enhancement. Like Roy never died, everyone just hallucinated for months because the IFCC cast high powered illusions on everyone in an effort to orchestrate V's deal so they could make a play for the gates we don't even know are real anymore.

We're told a bit more than that. We're told Kraagor dies during the fight to seal the final rift. Now, what could kill someone trying to seal a rift? Oh, right, the Snarl. Sure, it could have been something else that killed Kraagor, but if it was why not say so? I mean, we see the "Holey Brotherhood" guarding one rift. Wouldn't have been much of a stretch to lie and say some other group was guarding the last rift and killed Kraagor.

[137beth]

And nobody (in-comic! Other forum-users are no evidence) said something that says otherwise or contradicts.
To be fair, Blackwing suggested (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html) that everything they were told about the snarl has a decent change of being wrong, and V agreed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

All other drawings are also content of the narration, so anything could be a random story enhancement. Like Roy never died, everyone just hallucinated for months because the IFCC cast high powered illusions on everyone in an effort to orchestrate V's deal so they could make a play for the gates we don't even know are real anymore.

Nope, I don't see what you are getting to here. You may want to work on your similes, since I don't see how your example relates to your point, sorry.


We're told a bit more than that. We're told Kraagor dies during the fight to seal the final rift. Now, what could kill someone trying to seal a rift? Oh, right, the Snarl. Sure, it could have been something else that killed Kraagor, but if it was why not say so? I mean, we see the "Holey Brotherhood" guarding one rift. Wouldn't have been much of a stretch to lie and say some other group was guarding the last rift and killed Kraagor.

It is implied he might have died from friendly fire, when Soon ordered the magicians in the team to blast the rift with them in/near it.

Regardless, I agree with ChristianSt. There is no evidence that Kraagor is anything other than dead. You can quibble with the appropriateness of "erradicated" as the description (although since it is a reference, I rather like it the way it is), but while I could accept changing it for "dead", I would not accept changing it to "MIA" or "unknown".

Grey Wolf

[Fitzclowningham]

The only thing to suggest she's higher than level 17, however, is circumstantial: she might be as high as level 23, which was Malack's ECL.

How did you arrive at 23 for Malack? I get C12 + 1 LA (Lizardfolk) + 8 (Vampire) = 21. Is there something else?

[Living Oxymoron]

How did you arrive at 23 for Malack? I get C12 + 1 LA (Lizardfolk) + 8 (Vampire) = 21. Is there something else?

You forgot to add 2 racial HD from lizardfolk, that also counts in this calculation.

[Fitzclowningham]

Figured it had to be something. Thanks!

[Porthos]

Here's the real problem with MIA. It's elevating a forum theory over an established fact from the comic. Now the fact might be wrong. But until it is, I say we go with what the comic tells us until then.

What I don't get is, since we can change the info when the situation is warranted, why are some people so insistent on changing it now. Honestly, this isn't written in stone, as was pointed out earlier. We see Kraagor alive, or someone claims he is alive we change it.

Why is it so important to change it now? I just don't see it. Especially since it isn't the job of this thread to predict things.

Do we really want to open up this thread to various forum speculations? Personally, I'd rather have information that is likely to be wrong, but it is wrong because that is what the comic wants us to believe is true, than start putting our own guesses into it.

[Porthos]

All other drawings are also content of the narration, so anything could be a random story enhancement. Like Roy never died, everyone just hallucinated for months because the IFCC cast high powered illusions on everyone in an effort to orchestrate V's deal so they could make a play for the gates we don't even know are real anymore.

We're told a bit more than that. We're told Kraagor dies during the fight to seal the final rift. Now, what could kill someone trying to seal a rift? Oh, right, the Snarl. Sure, it could have been something else that killed Kraagor, but if it was why not say so? I mean, we see the "Holey Brotherhood" guarding one rift. Wouldn't have been much of a stretch to lie and say some other group was guarding the last rift and killed Kraagor.

Well, I will point out that Rich has said that the Crayon Drawings are what people believed happen and not necessarily what happened. Think Rashomon as an extreme case.

We can be 100% certain that the events depicted in non-crayon form actually happened as the way we saw them, allowing for illusionary magics, deception, and the like. We can't be as certain that the Crayon Drawings have a similar 100% accuracy rate.

But it doesn't matter in the context of the current debate. People who ought to know have said that Kraagor is dead. Until concrete evidence arises that they were mistaken, it ought to be good enough for this thread.

...

And if it isn't, people can always mentally insert MIA or perhaps alive or whatever there preferred objection is when reading Kraagor's entry in this thread. :smallwink:

[AKA_Bait]

Do we really want to open up this thread to various forum speculations? Personally, I'd rather have information that is likely to be wrong, but it is wrong because that is what the comic wants us to believe is true, than start putting our own guesses into it.

I just want to echo this sentiment. For some of us this thread is a go-to resource on what we know about the characters mechanically from what has been (a) shown in comic or (b) expressly stated by the author. For the thread to serve that purpose, it has to be narrowly confined to what it can establish from one of those two sources. If speculation about future events in the comic, without evidence from one of those two sources begins to be permitted, it will cease to perform that function. So, if we have only been shown one thing, e.g. Kraagor is dead, in those two sources then that is what the thread should reflect.

This thread is a special case in that regard. We can argue all we want about being mislead by the evidence so far regarding Kraagor or anything else. We should just do it on a different thread.

[SavageWombat]

I'm not clear on when exactly the strip said that the Snarl "unmade" things it kills. Soon's wife doesn't look "unmade" to me. I found where it says the Snarl "unmade" the first world, but that could be interpreted as "destroyed".

Can I get a link to a better reference?

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm not clear on when exactly the strip said that the Snarl "unmade" things it kills. Soon's wife doesn't look "unmade" to me. I found where it says the Snarl "unmade" the first world, but that could be interpreted as "destroyed".

Can I get a link to a better reference?

It's in Start of Darkness:

Right-Eye: [If the plan to use the Snarl fails], we'll be dead.
Redcloak: Oh, in that case? Definitely. Worse than dead, actually, since the Snarl destroys the souls of all those it kills.

[Kurald Galain]

I think it would be best to change Kraagor's status as "Unmade/In the Rift".The thing is that one of these is based on in-comic evidence, and the other is based on fan speculation.


Do we really want to open up this thread to various forum speculations?No, we really don't. The whole point of this thread is that it's not about speculation. We have a whole forum here in which people can speculate to their heart's content about anything they like; it's just the point of this thread to ask what we can infer from the actual rules.


I'd like to cast a vote for Wormhole being a level 9 power.
And I'm afraid that includes this. I'm not sure what evidence we have for Wormhole being 9th or some other level, but we're not going to decide a power's level by voting on what people think it might be. Sorry, that's just not what this thread is for.

[AKA_Bait]

And I'm afraid that includes this. I'm not sure what evidence we have for Wormhole being 9th or some other level, but we're not going to decide a power's level by voting on what people think it might be. Sorry, that's just not what this thread is for.

Are you saying here that we shouldn't peg Wormhole as 9th level, or that we shouldn't do so by nature of a vote?

[orrion]

Are you saying here that we shouldn't peg Wormhole as 9th level, or that we shouldn't do so by nature of a vote?

A little of both, but most certainly the last. A vote is majority, and the compilation is for coming to see what is, not what people vote is.

[ChristianSt]

Are you saying here that we shouldn't peg Wormhole as 9th level, or that we shouldn't do so by nature of a vote?

I think he means that we shouldn't peg Wormhole at all, since we can't know what it is. From what I have read here [I don't play D&D], it is some kind of homebrewed version, and only thing that is "sure" it that is non-epic (since that implies she is level 60+).
And since we don't know how that version work, we should only say she has that spell, but we can't say what level that spell is. (From what I read, it should be somewhat 6/7+, so listing any level for it would be guessing)

[AKA_Bait]

I think he means that we shouldn't peg Wormhole at all, since we can't know what it is.

If that's the case, then we would also need to adjust Laurin's level because it is pegged at 17+ based on her ability to use a 9th level power.

That said, I'm not sure that we should determine that we can't peg a homebrew power's level and draw conclusions from that where the evidence is strong enough to support pegging it at a particular level. Certain pieces of evidence, such as the level being mentioned by the Giant or mentioned in panel, would clearly be enough to demonstrate the spell or power's level.

I admit, inferences are harder to justify in this case. I tend to think that based on what the Wormhole power can do when compared to 8th level and 9th level powers and spells and how it looks (just like Gate) that its a pretty safe bet that it is 9th level. However, it is a bet.

[ChristianSt]

Ok, if the only reason is Laurin is listed at 17+ would be Wormhole is lvl 9, then it should be either Wormhole is lvl 9 or Laurin at ??+ (I don't know what the next minimum level would be) and Wormhole lvl ??.

Stating Laurin is 17+ based on a spell which we don't have a lvl for seems sketchy. And certainly it is possible to figure out a lvl of a spell (easiest way would be the Giant's word on it), but I've heard here on the forum that it could certainly be a lower lvl spell that can be augmented.
Or does augmenting the spell require some caster lvl? E.g. if Wormhole is a lvl 8 spell that needs to be augmented to transport the army, does this means that Laurin is 17+? If that is the case then it could be reasonable to say Laurin is 17+ and we don't know where to put the base lvl of Wormhole.

[RMS Oceanic]

I've dropped the assumption that Wormhole is a level 9 power. It just felt so obvious to me that I jumped the gun on it. Now the highest confirmed power of Laurin's is Disintegrate.

[RyanM]

I hope this hasn't been shot down before, but I think strip 515 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html should be listed as Belkar's level 13 (I doubt it would be level 14), on the chart thingie. Unless negative levels from energy drain are permanent in the OOTS-verse? Don't think they are, so Belkar would regain the level eventually, even with a Cha penalty.

[zimmerwald1915]

I hope this hasn't been shot down before, but I think strip 515 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html should be listed as Belkar's level 13 (I doubt it would be level 14), on the chart thingie. Unless negative levels from energy drain are permanent in the OOTS-verse? Don't think they are, so Belkar would regain the level eventually, even with a Cha penalty.

If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
There's no particular reason to believe Belkar succeeded on his Fortitude save.

[RyanM]

There's no particular reason to believe Belkar succeeded on his Fortitude save.

Gah, I remembered the rule wrong. Oh, well. Still, both Ranger and Barbarian get "good" fortitude saves, so it's at least a possibility.

[Codyage]

The thing is that one of these is based on in-comic evidence, and the other is based on fan speculation.

Which one?

The Snarl unmaking things is what we have been told it does from the story through narration. Does this mean since we haven't seen it on screen it is fan speculation?

Or are you referring to the in the rift part? I am not going by the fan theory they could be alive in the rift, just that when everything is unmade or has disappeared, they went inside the rift. All though, this thread doesn't keep track of bodies, so had he died in the battle, it would still be made deceased.

All though in retrospect, making it Unmade/In the Rift, does make it sound that they could be unmade, or still alive, which was not my intent.

[orrion]

Which one?

The Snarl unmaking things is what we have been told it does from the story through narration. Does this mean since we haven't seen it on screen it is fan speculation?

Or are you referring to the in the rift part? I am not going by the fan theory they could be alive in the rift, just that when everything is unmade or has disappeared, they went inside the rift. All though, this thread doesn't keep track of bodies, so had he died in the battle, it would still be made deceased.

All though in retrospect, making it Unmade/In the Rift, does make it sound that they could be unmade, or still alive, which was not my intent.

He's referring to the "Kraagor is dead" and "Kraagor might be alive" debate.

We have solid evidence in-comic that Kraagor is dead. Shojo's story says so, and Girard's illusory self in the desert spells it out. We have only speculation that he might be alive.

[Flame of Anor]

I don't especially like the misspelling of "eradicate". Not enough people will get the reference, and I don't feel like an irrelevant in-joke is worth the confusion.

[ti'esar]

I don't especially like the misspelling of "eradicate". Not enough people will get the reference, and I don't feel like an irrelevant in-joke is worth the confusion.

Ditto, plus I'm not sure why we can't just list him as "dead".

[RMS Oceanic]

Okay, I've dropped the erradicated thing, he is now deceased.

Also I've fixed Pompey's image and given Laurin one. If it turns out to be someone other than Laurin, that's because imageshack is blocked at my work and the filenames were non-indicative. :smallbiggrin:

[ChristianSt]

Also I've fixed Pompey's image and given Laurin one. If it turns out to be someone other than Laurin, that's because imageshack is blocked at my work and the filenames were non-indicative. :smallbiggrin:

Pompey works, but the smiley of Laurin is the one of Miron ;)

Correct one is this: http://imageshack.us/a/img4/8008/978c.png

[RMS Oceanic]

That's better. :smalltongue:

[DaveMcW]

I've dropped the assumption that Wormhole is a level 9 power. It just felt so obvious to me that I jumped the gun on it. Now the highest confirmed power of Laurin's is Disintegrate.

Wormhole might not be a level 9 power, but I am pretty sure augmenting it to transport an entire army cost at least 17 power points. I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise.

You can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#augment)

[RMS Oceanic]

Wormhole might not be a level 9 power, but I am pretty sure augmenting it to transport an entire army cost at least 17 power points. I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise.

You can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#augment)

Well since it's functionally similar to Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), we can take a look at its duration, namely "Concentration, up to 1 round/level". This is guesswork, but it would make sense that Wormhole would have a similar duration, so the main question is how many rounds did it take for the army to march through. If Wormhole was augmented, then it would most likely have been for its width. But Gate also includes variable dimensions in its description. It all depends on what is included in the manifestation of Wormhole.

[DaveMcW]

Incidentally, I agree with you that it is 9th level like Gate.

But for those who do not, I am arguing that the big Wormhole is still evidence that Laurin is 17+.

[Silverionmox]

Ditto, plus I'm not sure why we can't just list him as "dead"."Missing in action" would qualify too, since it's not totally implausible that he became trapped on the wrong side of the gate when Soon ordered Dorukan to seal it.

[ChristianSt]

Dorukan s listed with (Deceased, SoD) - which is certainly true because he died in SoD.

But wouldn't it be better to provide an online-strip source that he is dead? Since there is at least one which states that he is dead, that would be easy to change: In 196 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) the dialogue in the first panel states that Xykon has killed Dorukan. (If we have one for Lirian imo the same applies, but I don't know if it was stated online)

[SavageWombat]

"Missing in action" would qualify too, since it's not totally implausible that he became trapped on the wrong side of the gate when Soon ordered Dorukan to seal it.

Missing: Presumed Dead would be the more accurate phrasing. But the whole "do we know for sure" question seems unpopular with some posters.

[Kornaki]

What's crazy is that we've been told explicitly in comic that Kraagor died and people don't want to put it up, but the evidence we have for Girard's death is they found somebody's skeleton and Haley said 'yeah probably Girard'.

To list one as deceased and the other as missing in action on the basis that for plot reasons if Girard was live we probably would have seen him by now is to defy the whole purpose of this thread - either both are dead or both are missing: presumed dead.

[ChristianSt]

What's crazy is that we've been told explicitly in comic that Kraagor died and people don't want to put it up, but the evidence we have for Girard's death is they found somebody's skeleton and Haley said 'yeah probably Girard'.

While I agree with both being dead (at least for the purpose of this thread), a large part of evidence for Girard's death is also Familicide. It is a really overpowered spell and Girard needs a good reason to life through it.

[SavageWombat]

What, no discussion of 928 yet?

1) Add Horrid Wilting and Contingency to Miron, almost-but-not-quite cementing him as a wizard

2) Discussion on Laurin's power? I favor Ultrablast at first, but someone suggested that should have killed Belkar outright.

[Porthos]

Laurin has an unspecified healing power.

Whatever the power is that Laurin used in the last panel, also needs to target Tarquin, which rules a lot of them out.

[AstralFire]

Laurin has an unspecified healing power.

Whatever the power is that Laurin used in the last panel, also needs to target Tarquin, which rules a lot of them out.

I no longer have Complete Psionic, but there was a very augmentable healing power that could be picked up via expanded knowledge there.

Though, does it NEED to also target Tarquin? He was not visibly damaged.

[Ramien]

I no longer have Complete Psionic, but there was a very augmentable healing power that could be picked up via expanded knowledge there.

Though, does it NEED to also target Tarquin? He was not visibly damaged.

He's got the glowy bits around his head that makes it look like something's happening.

[AstralFire]

He's got the glowy bits around his head that makes it look like something's happening.

Not in the panel where she's casting a healing power, though.

[Porthos]

I no longer have Complete Psionic, but there was a very augmentable healing power that could be picked up via expanded knowledge there.

Though, does it NEED to also target Tarquin? He was not visibly damaged.

I was talking about two separate powers there. :smallsmile:

I've seen references to chaining powers. Chaining to Tarquin to reach others, confident that Tarquin will easily make whatever save makes sense. Especially if he has Spell/Power resistance. Doubly so if they've pulled off this maneuver before.

[Matt620]

Looking at Tarquin's face, I think he was pretty clear that he would be immune to the power Laurin dished out and was okay with it hitting him.

Perhaps it's some sort of nightmare power? I'm sure there are psionics out there that can cause it. If so, Tarquin's Ring of True Seeing could have prevented it from affecting him.

With Miron having Contingency, he's got to be an arcane caster. Probably Sorcerer, since he's a big ditz. Horrid Wilting is possible for water domain clerics, but contingency is all arcane. Although if he could cast that Teleport, why did Laurin need to open a Wormhole? Kilkil, perhaps?

[Shreav]

Looking at Tarquin's face, I think he was pretty clear that he would be immune to the power Laurin dished out and was okay with it hitting him.

Perhaps it's some sort of nightmare power? I'm sure there are psionics out there that can cause it. If so, Tarquin's Ring of True Seeing could have prevented it from affecting him.

Psionic Blast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicBlast.htm), perhaps? That would plausibly explain why nobody (and in particular, Belkar) isn't injured further by it, but everyone except Tarquin and Durkula has a pained expression on their face. The yellow "rays" could also be a visual presentation of "the air ripples with the force of your mental attack".

[AstralFire]

Most things that'd give Tarquin immunity to any of the candidate powers would work for all candidate powers.

Psionic Blast is the wrong shape, though, it's a cone and this affected people in a burst from what we can see.

[zimmerwald1915]

What, no discussion of 928 yet?

1) Add Horrid Wilting and Contingency to Miron, almost-but-not-quite cementing him as a wizard.
Thanks to contingency, Miron must be an arcane caster. Thanks to horrid wilting, Miron must be level 15 or higher (time to add him to the first post, or should we wait for confirmation of his class?). Which means the spell his contingency activated was almost certainly teleport. Does that in turn mean that Miron knows teleport? Does your contingent spell have to be a spell you know?


Laurin has an unspecified healing power.
I think body adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm) fits rather well, don't you?

[Porthos]

Thanks to horrid wilting, Miron is now level 15 or greater. Which means the spell his contingency activated was almost certainly teleport. Does that in turn mean that Miron know


Contingency
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: At least 10 minutes; see text
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: One day/level (D) or until discharged
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

Material Component
That of the companion spell, plus quicksilver and an eyelash of an ogre mage, rakshasa, or similar spell-using creature.

Focus
A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.

Does casting from a scroll fit that definition?


I think body adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm) fits rather well, don't you?

I'll have to look at that when I'm not about to run out the door. But at first glance, it seems right.

[zimmerwald1915]

Does casting from a scroll fit that definition?
No idea. That's why I asked :smallwink:

[AstralFire]

Contingency can be used in conjunction with UMD, so yes, scrolls work.

Though I must express that I feel it exceedingly unlikely that Mr. Burlew would let someone do that.

[Matt620]

If Miron's spell was teleport, he must be Lvl 15 minimum, since teleport is 5 and Contingency requires the spell to be 1/3 your level or less.

Miron may not have chosen to specialize in a school: He's cast Abjuration (GDM), Evocation (Contingency), Conjuration (Teleporting spell for said contigency, and that mage armor type spell from blocking Haley's arrow) and Necromancy (Horrid Wilting). Since you can't choose divination to lose, that might be a thought

[Matt620]

Does casting from a scroll fit that definition?



I'll have to look at that when I'm not about to run out the door. But at first glance, it seems right.


That only works on yourself, though. Maybe I read the wrong thing, but it looked to me like Laurin was healing all three of them.

[zimmerwald1915]

That only works on yourself, though. Maybe I read the wrong thing, but it looked to me like Laurin was healing all three of them.
Laurin's dweomer only manifested around herself. If she had been healing Miron and Tarquin as well, her dweomer would have manifested around them.

[Chronos]

Quoth zimmerwald1915:

There's no particular reason to believe Belkar succeeded on his Fortitude save.
There's even less reason to believe he failed. All of his levels are in classes that have good Fort progression, he has at least two such classes, he probably has decent Con, and there are a lot of things you can do to boost a save that you know is coming (Rage, Resistance, Guidance, maybe Conviction if the Azure City clerics use Spell Compendium, etc.). Yes, either one is possible (if nothing else, saves auto-succeed or fail on a natural 20 or 1), but we're definitely not certain he failed.

On Miron, all we can say for sure is that he has some sort of teleportation power. It could be Teleport, or it could be something like Dimension Door maximum range straight up (a common Contingency choice).

On Laurin, while I personally agree that transporting the army would require at least a 17 PP expenditure, I don't think that that matches the standards of this thread. Consider that we didn't even use his genocidal sacrifice-farm plans as evidence of his alignment-- If that's not proof, then neither is "Yup, that power looks pretty powerful".

On the big blasty power she's using this strip, is it possible that it's something that affects both enemies and allies, but in a different way? There are a few spells that do that, such as Prayer, but I don't know if there are any powers. And I'm guessing that it's a fear effect, from the look on Belkar's face.

[orrion]

There's even less reason to believe he failed. All of his levels are in classes that have good Fort progression, he has at least two such classes, he probably has decent Con, and there are a lot of things you can do to boost a save that you know is coming (Rage, Resistance, Guidance, maybe Conviction if the Azure City clerics use Spell Compendium, etc.). Yes, either one is possible (if nothing else, saves auto-succeed or fail on a natural 20 or 1), but we're definitely not certain he failed.


Does he still get the Con bonus after being blood drained? 'Cause that's Constitution damage.

[zimmerwald1915]

Does he still get the Con bonus after being blood drained? 'Cause that's Constitution damage.
Does it matter? Chronos was referring to the abortive discussion of whether Belkar kept the level Tsukiko's wight drained off him almost two books ago.

[orrion]

Does it matter? Chronos was referring to the abortive discussion of whether Belkar kept the level Tsukiko's wight drained off him almost two books ago.

Oh, then carry on. The mention of Laurin and Miron in that same post threw me off on the timeline.

[ti'esar]

Psionic Blast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicBlast.htm), perhaps? That would plausibly explain why nobody (and in particular, Belkar) isn't injured further by it, but everyone except Tarquin and Durkula has a pained expression on their face. The yellow "rays" could also be a visual presentation of "the air ripples with the force of your mental attack".

Durkon doesn't have a pained expression, but he does have a shocked one (the same as Belkar, in fact, except that his mouth isn't open). Given his notable lack of reaction to most things since being vamped, I'd take that as strong evidence he was also affected.

Can we guess anything about what Miron's dodge effect in panel 4 is representing?

[Slayer Lord]

I'm surprised Miron and Jucinda the catgirl aren't up yet for Team Tarquin. Is it because their classes haven't been confirmed yet?

[Matt620]

Can we guess anything about what Miron's dodge effect in panel 4 is representing?

That doesn't look like anything more than a successful save dodging V's ranged touch attack

[zimmerwald1915]

Can we guess anything about what Miron's dodge effect in panel 4 is representing?
When the Giant described the Order's second fight with Miko he mentioned that V had "no real attack bonus on rays". V misses with disintegrate about as often as she hits even when not trance-deprived. In this particular case she was making a ranged attack into melee, and taking the requisite -4 penalty to her roll. I see no reason to read anything into the scene other than V simply rolling low.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[Emanick]

Durkon doesn't have a pained expression, but he does have a shocked one (the same as Belkar, in fact, except that his mouth isn't open). Given his notable lack of reaction to most things since being vamped, I'd take that as strong evidence he was also affected.

Can we guess anything about what Miron's dodge effect in panel 4 is representing?

I don't think that gives us anything definitive. It could be as simple as V failing to succeed on a touch attack with Disintegrate. It's assumed, after all, that even with AC 10 people are actively trying to dodge attacks.

ARRRRRRRGHHH DOUBLED NINJA'D :smallfurious:

[ti'esar]

I figured as much, but we usually see that represented with a "miss" unsound effect, not the target dodging.

Incidentally, I think we can now peg Miron as an arcane caster (I'm guessing sorcerer, but still no proof on that) at level 15+.

[runeghost]

On Miron, all we can say for sure is that he has some sort of teleportation power. It could be Teleport, or it could be something like Dimension Door maximum range straight up (a common Contingency choice).

People seriously do that? I've spent far more time in 1st and 2nd ed than the more modern flavors of D&D, but setting than up seems to be asking, if not begging, to get kicked when you're down.

[runeghost]

Is there any reason to think Laurin's attack isn't a massively augmented Inflict Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inflictPain.htm)? It can be augmented to hit multiple targets, but all targets need to be within 15 feet of another target, nicely explaining the need to hit Tarquin. It's a debuff, not damage, so it won't kill Belkar (or risk killing Elan or Haley).

[Emanick]

Is there any reason to think Laurin's attack isn't a massively augmented Inflict Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inflictPain.htm)? It can be augmented to hit multiple targets, but all targets need to be within 15 feet of another target, nicely explaining the need to hit Tarquin. It's a debuff, not damage, so it won't kill Belkar (or risk killing Elan or Haley).

I don't think the Order would react that strongly to a -4 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks. It looks more like a mass paralysis effect to me.

But of course, all bets are off until 929 comes out.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't think the Order would react that strongly to a -4 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks. It looks more like a mass paralysis effect to me.

But of course, all bets are off until 929 comes out.

Someone in the main thread suggested Mental Disruption (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mentalDisruption.htm). That one makes the most sense, but its the only mass "paralysis"-like ability I saw that is 360 degrees.

[Shale]

I don't think the Order would react that strongly to a -4 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks. It looks more like a mass paralysis effect to me.

But of course, all bets are off until 929 comes out.

Speaking as the one who suggested Mental Disruption, Inflict Pain seems like the best fit so far. It doesn't cause damage, but it still makes the targets feel like they're getting hurt, thus the expressions on everybody's faces (and Tarquin, who knows the strategy, would be ready for it). It also explains the effect chaining from Tarquin to Durkon, because each target has to be no more than 15 feet from either the caster or another target.

[Porthos]

How's this:



Energy Burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyBurst.htm)
Psychokinesis [see text]
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: 40-ft-radius burst centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 5
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create an explosion of unstable ectoplasmic energy of the chosen type that deals 5d6 points of damage to every creature or object within the area. The explosion creates almost no pressure. Since this power extends outward from you, you are not affected by the damage.

Cold
A burst of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold burst is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.

Electricity
Manifesting a burst of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.

Fire
A burst of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.

Sonic
A burst of this energy type deals -1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.

This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.

Augment
For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

A Reflex save allows Belkar to live if he makes it with Evasion. It targets everone within an area, thus having the chance to get Tarquin (who is unconcerned because of feats/magic items/whatever). It can be augmented to include lots and lots of d6s.

What doesn't fit:

The possible chaining effect seen.
The pained expression on Laurin.

[tyckspoon]

How's this:

Energy Burst...


What doesn't fit:

The possible chaining effect seen.
The pained expression on Laurin.

Unlikely, at best - the Energy-Whatsit powers are psionics' versions of Fireball/Lightning Bolt/Meteor Swarm/etc, and we've seen those kinds of blasty abilities plenty of times in the comic already. Whatever Laurin used doesn't look anything like that. The art suggests that what is going on here is a targeted effect, not an indiscriminate area like a Burst would be (again, compare to various Fireballs and other spells that cover a swath of panel regardless of whether there is anything to hit there), and having it go straight from Laurin's head to the target's heads and nowhere else implies a mind-affecting power. At least to me.

[RMS Oceanic]

Looking through the SRD's power list, I see only three Psionic Powers that heal your own hit point damage, and two of them are Psychic Warrior vampiric buffs for your weapons. I think we can safely conclude Laurin has Body Adjustment, unless she decided to attack Miron. :smallsmile:

Mental Disruption looks like a good fit: Easily augmentable to enhance range and save DC, it can also spare certain creatures its effects, hence why Tarquin was left alone. Also since it's an area of effect power, it explains those stray bolts of psionic power. However I haven't finished my read through of the power list, so I'm planning on waiting until either I finish or someone comes up with an even better fit.

I don't think it's Energy Burst. When Laurin disintegrated Nale, the only psionic display was around her head as the green beam sprang forth, whereas when she used that power on Haley, the display reached all the way to her. I think Energy Burst would be demonstrated with a display around Laurin's head, follower by fire/lightning/what have you.

Meanwhile Miron is definitely level 15 with the revelation of Horrid Wilting in his repertoire, and arcane with his Contingency, but it's still up in the air whether he's a wizard or a sorcerer. Unfortunately it may be we never get to find out now he's left the battlefield. :smallfrown:

[ti'esar]

Mental Disruption looks like a good fit: Easily augmentable to enhance range and save DC, it can also spare certain creatures its effects, hence why Tarquin was left alone. Also since it's an area of effect power, it explains those stray bolts of psionic power. However I haven't finished my read through of the power list, so I'm planning on waiting until either I finish or someone comes up with an even better fit.

I see no reason to make a call now, since we'll almost certainly get more details next strip.

[Leirus]

Ok, this is probably nonsense, but... up until this last strip, I thought Miron was sporting some kind of light cloth, all beduin-like. But V called it a scarf, and that paired with the spell he attempted made me wonder if he could be a necromancer or some related prestige class. Who wears a scarf in a desert? Someone whose body has started to go cold, maybe.

I do not know much about D&D, but I was curious enough about the idea to ask here... I dunno, those seem the kind of hints the Giant would use.

[Flame of Anor]

Although if he could cast that Teleport, why did Laurin need to open a Wormhole?

To take the dinosaur, Tarquin, and Laurin, he'd need to be 18th level; maybe he's not quite that high-level (though personally I find it unlikely). Or, more plausibly, he didn't prepare enough teleport spells to be useful.


Which means the spell his contingency activated was almost certainly teleport. Does that in turn mean that Miron knows teleport? Does your contingent spell have to be a spell you know?

It does, but it could theoretically be greater teleport too.

[zimmerwald1915]

It does, but it could theoretically be greater teleport too.
Not unless greater teleport stopped being a level 7 spell. Contingency can only activate spells of level 6 or lower, and can only activate spells that strong if the caster is level 18 or higher.

[Flame of Anor]

Not unless greater teleport stopped being a level 7 spell. Contingency can only activate spells of level 6 or lower, and can only activate spells that strong if the caster is level 18 or higher.

Okay, yeah. It's definitely teleport then.

[Porthos]

I'm really rusty on some of my 3.5 foo having not played in years, but does 928 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html) show that Belkar has Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack)? Or could he have pulled off that maneuver without it? Say with some sort of Tumble shenanigan?

[Coat]

Given that Psionic Greater Teleport is lvl 8, I think unless there is evidence of at least one restriction for Wormhole that does not apply to Psionic Greater Teleport, we should assume lvl 8 for it as a minimum.

I agree that Inflict Pain is an excellent candidate for Laurin's attack power in 928. The chaining fits, the targeting of Tarquin, and if you look carefully at Durkon, he is surprised, but his mouth-shape is not noticeably altered - there's no evidence he is suffering from it, which would be consistent with his immunity to mind-affecting powers. There's no lightning or fire or anything on any of the people affected, suggesting that there's no elemental damage - particularly considering the art for the prismatic spray in 927.

Miron has eaten a lot of damage here, with no visible healing - any chance we can establish a baseline CON bonus?

[Matt620]

Miron has eaten a lot of damage here, with no visible healing - any chance we can establish a baseline CON bonus?


He probably has damage reduction from his stuff, and possibly Toughness. Not a bad choice for a squishy caster who doesn't have a lot of long-range spells

[AKA_Bait]

He probably has damage reduction from his stuff, and possibly Toughness. Not a bad choice for a squishy caster who doesn't have a lot of long-range spells

Toughness is always a bad choice. It's kind of the go-to example of a horribly underpowered feat. I'm not saying he didn't take it, given the Giant's statements about optimization, but I don't think we should put it in the running for anything unless it's explicitly mentioned.

[Chronos]

Wait, why are people saying that Tarquin has immunity to mind-effecting? I don't think we've seen any evidence of that, and the only item I know of that grants it sits prominently in the middle of the forehead, where we would have noticed it.

I agree with Porthos that Belkar has Spring Attack. He also appears to be tumbling in those panels, but tumbling won't let you move both before and after you attack, and he definitely appears to have moved afterward (he's nowhere near him when Haley pegs him).

Even more interesting is the fact that, even with movement, he still got at least two attacks in (one with each dagger). Anyone have an explanation for that? I don't think any Pounce ability would work here, since those only work on a charge, and I don't think you can combine a charge with a Spring Attack.

Oh, and we have enough information to list Miron. We don't know whether he's a wizard or a sorcerer (I'd guess wizard, since a sorcerer is unlikely to carry Contingency, but that's only a guess), but we do have a decent number of spells for him, and a minimum level high enough to be at least somewhat meaningful.

[RMS Oceanic]

Point of order concerning Sorcerers and Contingency: Xykon has it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). :smallsmile:

I'd still prefer to see if anything shakes loose concerning Miron before making a final commitment. At this level of knowledge he's either Wizard 15 or Sorceror 16, with an Intelligence or Charisma of 18. That feels a bit vague to me, but I may be mistaken.

[Kakuro]

Would Xykon's hypnotizing of the MiTD in SOD,count as usage of it?.

Also, how much damage is Haley dealing with her arrows, if we take the icy burst effect into account?. And is the "frozen in ice" effect only available on critical hits, as it hasn't seen use since she took on the thieves guild?.

[Shale]

The block of ice (2d10 ice damage) only shows up on critical hits. The rest of the time she's dealing 1d6 base damage + 1d6 frost damage + 5 magic damage + Dex modifier. So, in summary, ow.

[hamishspence]

Actually in D&D 3.5 you don't add Dex modifier to the damage of weapons like bows.

[RMS Oceanic]

Would Xykon's hypnotizing of the MiTD in SOD,count as usage of it?.

Also, how much damage is Haley dealing with her arrows, if we take the icy burst effect into account?. And is the "frozen in ice" effect only available on critical hits, as it hasn't seen use since she took on the thieves guild?.

1d8 +1d6 cold damage (+8d6 Sneak Attack) +5 enhancement.

A critical hit with her bow triples the 1d8+5 part and adds another 2d10 cold damage.

[Shale]

Actually in D&D 3.5 you don't add Dex modifier to the damage of weapons like bows.

This is what I get for trying to keep three different systems straight in my head.

[Kornaki]

Laurin could have been using True metabolism

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueMetabolism.htm

and wasn't complaining about having time to use her power, but having time to regenerate.

I believe Laurin's last power is Ultrablast

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ultrablast.htm

which nicely explains why she appears to be letting out a silent shriek of horror and some of the Order covering their ears.

(It's possible that as a joke Laurin's healing line could be the "psionic grumbling" which would be kind of funny)

[RMS Oceanic]

Laurin could have been using True metabolism

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueMetabolism.htm

and wasn't complaining about having time to use her power, but having time to regenerate.

So she was expecting Tarquin to wait the two rounds it took for her Fast Healing to undo the damage the Red Spray did? That doesn't make much sense to me.


I believe Laurin's last power is Ultrablast

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ultrablast.htm

which nicely explains why she appears to be letting out a silent shriek of horror and some of the Order covering their ears.

(It's possible that as a joke Laurin's healing line could be the "psionic grumbling" which would be kind of funny)

The problem with that power is it does 13d6 (or 6.5d6) damage to everyone, which could easily have killed Belkar, and doesn't explain why Tarquin would just smile it off. You'd think he'd at least frown or grunt in pain.

[hamishspence]

The problem with that power is it does 13d6 (or 6.5d6) damage to everyone, which could easily have killed Belkar, and doesn't explain why Tarquin would just smile it off. You'd think he'd at least frown or grunt in pain.It says "All enemies within the area" not "All creatures within the area".

Still wouldn't explain Belkar.

[Shale]

Which runs into the problem of why his head is glowing like he's been targeted.

Unless somebody can come up with a power that matches what we're seeing and has friendly fire, the only good explanation I've seen for why the spell would hit him is that she's bouncing Inflict Pain to Durkon and Tarquin is the only one close enough to chain from.

[AstralFire]

I think it's plausible (though not MOST plausible, just plausible) that mind-affecting powers which fire in a burst but pick friend or foe are depicted as "scanning" a mind before deciding whether or not to attack it.

[Jezequel]

How does this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) show that Belkar has three magic daggers (as it says on the front page)? I can count only 2.

[Shale]

Second page, the panel right after he snogs Jenny. He tosses two daggers into the blond thief's torso, while holding on to a third that's visible at his waist.

[hamishspence]

In panel 9 on the second page, Belkar has just thrown two daggers into his enemy while kissing Jenny- yet still has one dagger visible.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[Jezequel]

Ah yes, thanks!

[Kurald Galain]

Added Spring Attack to Belkar, defensive potions to V (from comic 923).


Miron may not have chosen to specialize in a school: He's cast Abjuration (GDM), Evocation (Contingency), Conjuration (Teleporting spell for said contigency, and that mage armor type spell from blocking Haley's arrow) and Necromancy (Horrid Wilting). Since you can't choose divination to lose, that might be a thought
Always a useful checklist. Well, he could still have dropped Transmutation, Illusion, and Enchantment.


On Miron, all we can say for sure is that he has some sort of teleportation power. It could be Teleport, or it could be something like Dimension Door maximum range straight up (a common Contingency choice).
The range of Dimension Door is about 1000 feet, or 300 meters. Given the location they're in, that would mean he'd still be visible and in the combat.

I would be in favor of adding him and Jacinda to the top posts, even if we know next to nothing about the catgirl yet; this is to include the complete team there. After all, we also have alisting for the MITD.

Speaking of Team Tarquin, we can say something about Laurin's age. Minimum age for a human psion is 17, and she was already psion'ing 22 years ago, when Nale was a baby. So that would make her 39+ years old.


I think it's plausible (though not MOST plausible, just plausible) that mind-affecting powers which fire in a burst but pick friend or foe are depicted as "scanning" a mind before deciding whether or not to attack it.
I don't think that's consistent with how spells have been depicted elsewhere in the comic. I'm leaning towards Inflict Pain as well.


Second page, the panel right after he snogs Jenny. He tosses two daggers into the blond thief's torso, while holding on to a third that's visible at his waist.
Come to think of it, it would be interesting to check if this is also in the printed book :)

[Kurald Galain]

And on another note, Dorukan certainly has at least Craft Wondrous Item, to make his Talisman.
Indeed.


For what it's worth, Girard's "Sorceror 19+" link both has "sorcerer" misspelled and doesn't actually go anywhere.
Whoops :)

Also, I thought of something. In his battle with Malack, Durkon said that he couldn't use Thor's Might because the ceiling was too low; that means he did have it prepared. However, right now he's saying he doesn't have magic any more. That indicates that he can no longer use Thor's Might.

Also also, Laurin has another unspecified attack power in comic 927, which is different from the UAP she used earlier.

[Jezequel]

Come to think of it, it would be interesting to check if this is also in the printed book :)

Just checked. Yup, still there.

[AstralFire]

There is a possibility that Thor's Might was the spell he converted to heal instinctively.

[Porthos]

I agree with Porthos that Belkar has Spring Attack. He also appears to be tumbling in those panels, but tumbling won't let you move both before and after you attack, and he definitely appears to have moved afterward (he's nowhere near him when Haley pegs him).

Even more interesting is the fact that, even with movement, he still got at least two attacks in (one with each dagger). Anyone have an explanation for that? I don't think any Pounce ability would work here, since those only work on a charge, and I don't think you can combine a charge with a Spring Attack.

Setting aside the two attacks bit for a moment, I also think Belkar has too many feats if he does have Spring Attack. For Spring Attack, he needs to have Dodge and Mobility as pre-reques.

In his statblock he has as listed:

Craft Disturbing Mental Image
Great Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html)
Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html)
Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder)
Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)

If we include (and as has now been updated :smallsmile:) Spring Attack and the prereques:

Spring Attack
Dodge
Mobility

That's eight feats. At lvl 15 he should have six feats, correct? OK, as funny as it is, Craft Disturbing Mental Image can go on the chopping block as a 'real' feat. Maybe he got it for free or sumthin. :smalltongue:

There's still one too many feats unless I am massively messing up somewhere.

As I look about, I see that Rangers can choose Two Weapon Pounce if they meet certain requirements. But it doesn't appear as if they can choose it as part of their improved weapon style.

So does something go on the chopping block here? Or do we fold in Two Weapon Pounce as an Alternative Class Feature of Rangers for Belkar?

We could also possibly knock out Great Cleave if all we are going on is Belkar's comment about "I'm gonna try for two now." After all, just because he could try doesn't mean he could succeed. And on-screen evidence should trump attempted non-screen evidence.

And all Improved Sunder lets one do is make an attack against a Hydra's head without an Attack of Opportunity. That could be explained away as the Hydra just missed and Rich didn't depict it in the combat explicitly.

Is there evidence for Great Cleave later on in the comic? Or Improved Sunder? If so, Alternate Class Feature for Two Weapon Pounce could be our only alternative. Though I may be missing something pretty big, due to my rust. :smallwink:

ETA::: We could also always open up the can of worms of One Flaw Equals One Feat variant rule. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) And if any character in the OotS has feat flaws it'd be Belkar. :smalltongue:

For instance, Inattentive [You are particularly unaware of your surroundings --- You take a -4 penalty on Listen checks and Spot checks]would certainly work. So to could Weak Will [You are highly suggestible and easily duped --- You take a -3 penalty on Will saves]. Either of them would help explain how he seems to be so lacking in Wisdom, even though he looks to have no worse than a 9 due to various reasons that are better not rehashed for the thousandth time.

Listed just as examples, not as suggestions to add it to the block.

[Psyren]

Sorry if this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but are we not adding Miron? He's almost certainly a sorcerer, and a pretty high-level one if he has Horrid Wilting and Contingency.

[Taelas]

I think the possibility he may also be a wizard is what is delaying his inclusion.

[ChristianSt]

I would include Miron as soon as possibly now (I think we know more of him than of Kilkil). As for class: can't we list him just as "Arcane Spellcaster"?

Or it will crop up every other post :smallamused:

[Flame of Anor]

Setting aside the two attacks bit for a moment, I also think Belkar has too many feats if he does have Spring Attack. For Spring Attack, he needs to have Dodge and Mobility as pre-reques.

In his statblock he has as listed:

Craft Disturbing Mental Image
Great Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html)
Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html)
Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder)
Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)

If we include (and as has now been updated :smallsmile:) Spring Attack and the prereques:

Spring Attack
Dodge
Mobility

That's eight feats. At lvl 15 he should have six feats, correct? OK, as funny as it is, Craft Disturbing Mental Image can go on the chopping block as a 'real' feat. Maybe he got it for free or sumthin. :smalltongue:

There's still one too many feats unless I am massively messing up somewhere.


What's more, you've left out Cleave, which is a prerequisite for Great Cleave. So there's definitely something fishy going on. I agree that we should take a hard look at just how sure we are that Belkar has Great Cleave. I would say that maybe he took a Fighter dip, but that probably would have come up in the dialogue.


I would include Miron as soon as possibly now (I think we know more of him than of Kilkil). As for class: can't we list him just as "Arcane Spellcaster"?

Or it will crop up every other post :smallamused:

Just list him as Sor/Wiz, I'd say.

[Kornaki]

So she was expecting Tarquin to wait the two rounds it took for her Fast Healing to undo the damage the Red Spray did? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Well it doesn't make much sense to say 'wait I need to finish healing' immediately after you finish healing either, but that's the world we live in.


For ultrablast there are two components to it: the pyschic grumbling that everyone can hear, and the damaging component. The yellow lines shooting out could be the psychic grumbling, after which only enemies are affected by damage. As for Belkar surviving, let's see what happens in the next comic. If the Order was dealt damage then I think ultrablast is clearly the power in use.

I don't understand why Belkar is being given Great Cleave actually..... he can attack multiple heads because he has multiple attacks, cleaving doesn't seem to be necessary for that strip.

[Psyren]

As I said in the last two iterations of this thread - Belkar's build runs on pure phlebotinum and Rule of Cool. You may as well give him custom feats that let him add Dex to damage and boost Dex when raging. About the only things we really know about him are his classes, alignment, and that his Will save is somewhere just north of Thog's.

[Emanick]

What's more, you've left out Cleave, which is a prerequisite for Great Cleave. So there's definitely something fishy going on. I agree that we should take a hard look at just how sure we are that Belkar has Great Cleave. I would say that maybe he took a Fighter dip, but that probably would have come up in the dialogue.



Just list him as Sor/Wiz, I'd say.

Agreed. Listing him as "arcane spellcaster" implies that he could be a bard or some other non-core arcane class (wu jen, etc.), which is pretty clearly not the case.

[illyahr]

Has anyone discussed the possibility that the power Laurin manifested was Empathic Transfer, Hostile? Her remaining injuries would be transferred to her target, and it goes from touch to 20' radius burst by augmenting. Tarquin would smile because he's used to it, Durkon would look surprised because it would actually hurt him. It wouldn't kill Belkar because Laurin's HP damage would be divided evenly, and it's a Will save for half, so the high-Will characters could demonstrate a lesser effect.

[Kornaki]

I'm willing to go on the record as saying that it is probably ultrablast and Belkar will be dead or unconscious in the next comic, with the full knowledge that if I'm right I get to pretend I'm king of the internet for a day even though nobody really cares, and if I'm wrong refer to that nobody really cares point.

[Kurald Galain]

Tarquin appears to have a stunning attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html).

Also, do we have a link for Lirian's alignment?

[Taelas]

I think the closest we have to Lirian's alignment is that she's a druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), which requires her to be some form of Neutral. Not sure how much that helps.

[orrion]

Tarquin appears to have a stunning attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html).

Also, do we have a link for Lirian's alignment?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889

It's linked in the Index of the Giant's Comments thread.

Lirian is Neutral Good.

Dorukan's alignment link is the same post.

[zimmerwald1915]

Miron has eaten a lot of damage here, with no visible healing - any chance we can establish a baseline CON bonus?
Yes. Let us assume that Miron went into this fight buffed with stoneskin, resist cold and resist electricity. Let us further assume that he took the minimum damage possible on each attack that visibly left a wound. Those attacks were as follows:

2 arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html)
1 lightning bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html) (he has a wound on his head that was not there in the last strip, and which Haley's arrows couldn't have left)
1 yellow ray from prismatic spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html)
1 greatsword, 2 daggers, 4 arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)

Those attacks dealt damage as follows, again assuming minimum damage modifiers (i.e., no Power Attack for Roy or Rage for Belkar, and assuming Belkar's daggers are each +1, but giving Belkar the benefit of Favored Enemy [human] taken 3 times so he can bypass the DR I've given Miron):

1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
10d6 electricity (ref halves)
80 electricity (ref halves)
2d6+15
1d3+9
1d3+9
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold

Resolving each attack so that it does at least one damage, and minimum damage, to Miron, we get the following:

11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
31 electricity => 1 electricity (Miron failed his save, but V only rolled 31 on her damage dice; if Miron had made his save, he would have taken no damage, because V's maximum damage on a lightning bolt that had been saved against would have been 30)
40 electricity => 10 electricity
17 => 7
11 => 1
11 => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1

All told, it is possible that Miron could have taken as little as 26 damage before his contingency activated. This is terribly unlikely, as it is achieved by giving Miron buffs we don't know he has (but can't be sure he doesn't have), and assuming the Order did the absolute minimum damage possible on each successful hit. It doesn't jive with the art showing him covered in wounds, including what look like severe wounds caused by Roy and Belkar. But it is possible.

At minimum, Miron is a level 15 Wizard. If he rolled 4s on all his HD, and is in fact a level 15 Wizard, he would have 60 HP before Constitution. So it's possible, though again, terribly unlikely, that the Order has yet to deplete even half his HP. This sort of thing isn't unprecedented; as I've argued in earlier threads, in order to have survived her fight with Xykon, V needed to have rolled almost all 4s on her HD, have a Constitution penalty of no less than -1, and made all her saves while Xykon did minimal damage. But we don't need to assume Miron's Constitution is average. We want to find a minimum value.

Again assuming Miron to be level 15, and to have rolled all 4s on his HD, in order to find his minimum Constitution we need to give him a penalty that will leave him with no less than 27 HP. That penalty is -2. So Miron, if he is a level 15 Wizard, must have a Constitution of 6 or higher. If he is level 28 or above (which we have absolutely no reason to believe), his Constitution could be as low as 4.

Since we have no reason to believe Miron is anywhere near level 28, we can say with some confidence that his Constitution must be 6 or higher.

[orrion]

That's a greatsword, 2 daggers, and 4 arrows, Zimmer.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's a greatsword, 2 daggers, and 4 arrows, Zimmer.
Thanks for the correction, but it doesn't change the conclusion. Miron's Constitution is still either 6 or higher.

[Bird]

Agreed. Listing him as "arcane spellcaster" implies that he could be a bard or some other non-core arcane class (wu jen, etc.), which is pretty clearly not the case.
Playing devil's advocate, is it? I agree he's not a bard or wu jen, but are there any other arcane primary-casting classes that could fit? (I admit I'm not familiar with the entire panoply of non-core classes.)



Since we have no reason to believe Miron is anywhere near level 28, we can say with some confidence that his Constitution must be 6 or higher.
You are good. High five.

[Emanick]

Playing devil's advocate, is it? I agree he's not a bard or wu jen, but are there any other arcane primary-casting classes that could fit? (I admit I'm not familiar with the entire panoply of non-core classes.)


You are good. High five.

The only other arcane spellcaster classes I can think of that are remotely within the mainstream (i.e. not one of the dozens of classes that may exist within the nebulous world of third-party sourcebooks) are the warlock and the warmage. Miron is definitely not a warlock, as they don't even cast spells, per se. I'm pretty sure he's not a warmage, either, since their spells are pretty tightly focused on military combat, but I can't say for sure, as my copy of Complete Arcane is currently on another continent.

[hamishspence]

Wu Jen have access to Teleport, Horrid Wilting, and lots of other spells. Not Contingency, though.

[warrl]

What's crazy is that we've been told explicitly in comic that Kraagor died and people don't want to put it up, but the evidence we have for Girard's death is they found somebody's skeleton and Haley said 'yeah probably Girard'.

To list one as deceased and the other as missing in action on the basis that for plot reasons if Girard was live we probably would have seen him by now is to defy the whole purpose of this thread - either both are dead or both are missing: presumed dead.

I agree. While we can construct means by which Kraagor could be alive, that are consistent with available evidence, we have no identified reason to suspect that he is alive.

Don't forget that untrustworthy tale-tellers can't be trusted - just when you're certain you have them dead to rights, you catch them telling the truth.

[Fish]

I agree. While we can construct means by which Kraagor could be alive, that are consistent with available evidence, we have no identified reason to suspect that he is alive.
I would argue this: how you define the answer depends on how you believe readers are using this thread. And I do mean readers; obviously the compilers are using this thread to reverse-engineer the character sheets based upon the available evidence. What do readers hope for and expect when they start reviewing your handiwork?

If readers are using this thread to remind themselves of narrative things that happened, then I'd put "missing, declared dead." Ah, look, I knew I'd seen Vaarsuvius cast that spell before. Does Belkar have Evasion? What kind of boots is Haley wearing?

If people are using this thread because are more interested in your guesses than the events themselves, then put "status unknown." Hmm, I wonder what that spell could be. What level is Roy? How many spells could Durkon have left? How many more hits can Belkar take?

Personally, I think the second method is an information-poor way to categorize Kraagor. "Status unknown" is one possible conclusion among many from the evidence provided, to wit, given what we know, we have concluded we know nothing. How useful is that to the average reader of the thread, do you think? I reckon it'd be more useful to say what you do know than to put "unknown."

[Flame of Anor]

Alright, I move to take Craft Disturbing Mental Image and Great Cleave off of Belkar's stat block, because the first one is a joke and the evidence for the second one is very, very tenuous. I believe that will bring him down to a legal number of feats.

[Living Oxymoron]

Alright, I move to take Craft Disturbing Mental Image and Great Cleave off of Belkar's stat block, because the first one is a joke and the evidence for the second one is very, very tenuous. I believe that will bring him down to a legal number of feats.

Agreed. Especially about that Craft Disturbing Mental Image.

[SpacemanSpif]

Now that we're considering taking Great Cleave off the list, I'm not sure what the logic behind Improved Sunder is, either. What am I missing?

[Living Oxymoron]

Now that we're considering taking Great Cleave off the list, I'm not sure what the logic behind Improved Sunder is, either. What am I missing?

Improved Sunder is required (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) to behead Hydras (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html) without taking attacks of opportunity.

[Porthos]

It's way late at night, and I don't want to think about this too much. I hadn't had the chance to go back and check earlier, but I think the strip where Belkar goes to town against the Thieves Guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) is probably a better indicator of Great Cleave.

Which puts us back in the realm of going for flaws unless we just say Rich didn't show any attacks of opportunity in the Hydra fight.

[Coat]

Yes. Let us assume that Miron went into this fight buffed with stoneskin, resist cold and resist electricity. Let us further assume that he took the minimum damage possible on each attack that visibly left a wound. Those attacks were as follows:

2 arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html)
1 lightning bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html) (he has a wound on his head that was not there in the last strip, and which Haley's arrows couldn't have left)
1 yellow ray from prismatic spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html)
1 greatsword, 2 daggers, 4 arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)

Those attacks dealt damage as follows, again assuming minimum damage modifiers (i.e., no Power Attack for Roy or Rage for Belkar, and assuming Belkar's daggers are each +1, but giving Belkar the benefit of Favored Enemy [human] taken 3 times so he can bypass the DR I've given Miron):

1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
10d6 electricity (ref halves)
80 electricity (ref halves)
2d6+15
1d3+9
1d3+9
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold
1d8+5+1d6 cold

Resolving each attack so that it does at least one damage, and minimum damage, to Miron, we get the following:

11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
31 electricity => 1 electricity (Miron failed his save, but V only rolled 31 on her damage dice; if Miron had made his save, he would have taken no damage, because V's maximum damage on a lightning bolt that had been saved against would have been 30)
40 electricity => 10 electricity
17 => 7
11 => 1
11 => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1
11+1 cold => 1

All told, it is possible that Miron could have taken as little as 26 damage before his contingency activated. This is terribly unlikely, as it is achieved by giving Miron buffs we don't know he has (but can't be sure he doesn't have), and assuming the Order did the absolute minimum damage possible on each successful hit. It doesn't jive with the art showing him covered in wounds, including what look like severe wounds caused by Roy and Belkar. But it is possible.

At minimum, Miron is a level 15 Wizard. If he rolled 4s on all his HD, and is in fact a level 15 Wizard, he would have 60 HP before Constitution. So it's possible, though again, terribly unlikely, that the Order has yet to deplete even half his HP. This sort of thing isn't unprecedented; as I've argued in earlier threads, in order to have survived her fight with Xykon, V needed to have rolled almost all 4s on her HD, have a Constitution penalty of no less than -1, and made all her saves while Xykon did minimal damage. But we don't need to assume Miron's Constitution is average. We want to find a minimum value.

Again assuming Miron to be level 15, and to have rolled all 4s on his HD, in order to find his minimum Constitution we need to give him a penalty that will leave him with no less than 27 HP. That penalty is -2. So Miron, if he is a level 15 Wizard, must have a Constitution of 6 or higher. If he is level 28 or above (which we have absolutely no reason to believe), his Constitution could be as low as 4.

Since we have no reason to believe Miron is anywhere near level 28, we can say with some confidence that his Constitution must be 6 or higher.

Zimmerwald, that's awesome.

Can we please include Con 6+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16363630&postcount=235) in Miron's stat block? Even if it doesn't tell us anything very surprising, I think that amount of effort should be recognised!

[Taelas]

It's way late at night, and I don't want to think about this too much. I hadn't had the chance to go back and check earlier, but I think the strip where Belkar goes to town against the Thieves Guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) is probably a better indicator of Great Cleave.

Which puts us back in the realm of going for flaws unless we just say Rich didn't show any attacks of opportunity in the Hydra fight.

He isn't required to have Great Cleave to do any of that. As an 11+ level Ranger, he's got 6 attacks (3 main hand, 3 off-hand). He kills three people with two daggers in a single round, attacking all three once each, and that's the only frame which might indicate Great Cleave somehow.

[illyahr]

Zimmerwald, that's awesome.

Can we please include Con 6+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16363630&postcount=235) in Miron's stat block? Even if it doesn't tell us anything very surprising, I think that amount of effort should be recognised!

I second this. Zimmer's methods and reasoning are sound enough, IMO. :smallcool: