Do You Think: Question

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Do you think a Cleric or Wizard would actually benefit or be more fun to play if they where run off Magicka or something based on a point system like the Psionics?

Imagine a Wizard but without spell slots instead they pay magicka or mana points to fuel their spells. Each spell level costs as much or maybe a little more then the powers of the same level. But can be reused so long as you have the magicka or mana to fuel them?

Also.. why would the cleric be that much worse of if it was a spontaneous caster class? I don't get why prepared is such a powerful class feature

[Benthesquid]

Also.. why would the cleric be that much worse of if it was a spontaneous caster class? I don't get why prepared is such a powerful class feature

Given that the cleric already draws from the full spell list... yes, yes it would.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

That was my point, the ability to spontaneously cast any spell on your list at will so long as you have the slots or points to use it

How is that a bad thing?

The problem with Sorcerers and the like is their limited spells known. A Cleric who knows ALL their spells how is that bad?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also.. why would the cleric be that much worse of if it was a spontaneous caster class? I don't get why prepared is such a powerful class feature
In a word, "versatility." There are hundreds of spells in the game that are situationally powerful, even necessary. There's no way a spontaneous caster can access all of them on his own. (When was the last time you picked Water Breathing as a sorcerer?). But a prepared caster can get exactly the spells he needs when, oh, an underwater adventure comes up. Or an investigation. Or a long overland trip. Or a social situation. Or... (you get the idea). Meanwhile, the spontaneous caster has to try to cover all of those things in one short list.

EDIT:

The problem with Sorcerers and the like is their limited spells known. A Cleric who knows ALL their spells how is that bad?
Leaving aside the possibility of players digging through a dozen splatbooks looking for exactly the right spell... it's too versatile. You will never, ever not have a good spell... and spells, in 3.5, solve all problems. All of them. The only problem you can solve with spells is someone with more spells than you.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

So in short its because of a small spell known list.

So a Cleric who knows ALL of his spells of his available levels casting spontaneously, or a Wizard who can learn any spell casting spontaneously is not underpowered at all.

So its not so much Prepared Vs Spontaneous its Unlimited Spell Known vs Spell Known List.

EDIT:
So if you moved the Wizard/Sorcerer, Cleric and the like to a Psion like system how would that effect them?

[Benthesquid]

So a Cleric who knows ALL of his spells of his available levels casting spontaneously, or a Wizard who can learn any spell casting spontaneously is not underpowered at all.


Wizards and Clerics are very rarely considered underpowered in any case, so no, making them full-list spontaneous casters doesn't make them less powerful.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

As some of my other threads talk about, I enjoy playing the character who is very bookish and loves to learn spells, bu the prepared thing always bugged me due to the fact that if I prepared a spell and it was not needed I wasted a resource. If I thought the villain was gonna have X type minions and instead he has Y type, but all the spells I prepared are to damage X then all those spell slots are useless. Now sure thats never gonna be your full spell list for the day but it still makes the smart guy who has all these spells look inferior to the guy who can cast spells for the situation at hand.

[Benthesquid]

Prepare a wider range of spells. Invest in some scrolls or wands to increase your versatility.

[Captnq]

It's called a handy haversack and a bunch of scrolls.

The scroll I want is always on top and can be drawn as a move action. Ask your DM if an Efficient Quiver with scrolls instead of arrows could be drawn as a free action (since arrows can) then combine the two items. yeah, 3,800 gp. Small price to pay for free action access to your scrolls.

[Benthesquid]

It's called a handy haversack and a bunch of scrolls.

The scroll I want is always on top and can be drawn as a move action. Ask your DM if an Efficient Quiver with scrolls instead of arrows could be drawn as a free action (since arrows can) then combine the two items. yeah, 3,800 gp. Small price to pay for free action access to your scrolls.

Arrows can be drawn as a free action anyways, though.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I know to use scrolls but still those are one shot burners, that you need to buy to get more of.
Now if the Sorcerer or something could change their spells known each day then this would be a good way to handle that weakness but once you know spells you need to buy scrolls of other spells or have someone else scribe them.

Also wouldn't the scroll thing make the Warlock like Tier 1 due to it being able to scribe any arcane scroll without needing to know the spell.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As some of my other threads talk about, I enjoy playing the character who is very bookish and loves to learn spells, bu the prepared thing always bugged me due to the fact that if I prepared a spell and it was not needed I wasted a resource. If I thought the villain was gonna have X type minions and instead he has Y type, but all the spells I prepared are to damage X then all those spell slots are useless. Now sure thats never gonna be your full spell list for the day but it still makes the smart guy who has all these spells look inferior to the guy who can cast spells for the situation at hand.
Personally I dislike prepared casters, but I'm told that trying to figure out what spells you'll need for the day is the fun/challenging part of playing such a character. If it bugs you that your superhumanly smart wizard always seems to be caught unprepared...

A wizard can leave spell slots "open" and prepare spells in them later in the day.
The spell "Mnemonic Enhancer" lets you prepare more spells in the middle of the day.
Use divinations to get an idea of what you'll need.

[ryu]

As some of my other threads talk about, I enjoy playing the character who is very bookish and loves to learn spells, bu the prepared thing always bugged me due to the fact that if I prepared a spell and it was not needed I wasted a resource. If I thought the villain was gonna have X type minions and instead he has Y type, but all the spells I prepared are to damage X then all those spell slots are useless. Now sure thats never gonna be your full spell list for the day but it still makes the smart guy who has all these spells look inferior to the guy who can cast spells for the situation at hand.

Pick spells to prepare that are applicable in a hilariously wide range of scenarios. If wizard pick up spontaneous divination to spend unused slots on planning for tomorrow just before bedtime. At that point there are no wasted resources. Only resources the DM forced you not to use for future days with actually difficult encounters.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Which I agree with entirely, I just don't like the feel of prepared casters, maybe because I got my start as a Bard and thus learned to love the on the spot casting feel but the prepared caster is powerful and when I use it right can be very powerful but it always seems so silly to have to go through my spell list and write down notes on which spells are filling which spell slots.
The Homework is not horrible and I do like the deep thought involved at times.

But the idea I posed just feels more fluid and less restrictive. Now of course you cannot cast spells of a level if you don't have points to power the spell.

But seriously how does a Wizard not immediately befriend a Warlock once they hit level 12 nothing the GM can do is gonna cause them a problem if he sticks to CR level of the party (If he goes after the Wizard then the party suffers for the Wizard's power right?)

[ryu]

Which I agree with entirely, I just don't like the feel of prepared casters, maybe because I got my start as a Bard and thus learned to love the on the spot casting feel but the prepared caster is powerful and when I use it right can be very powerful but it always seems so silly to have to go through my spell list and write down notes on which spells are filling which spell slots.
The Homework is not horrible and I do like the deep thought involved at times.

But the idea I posed just feels more fluid and less restrictive. Now of course you cannot cast spells of a level if you don't have points to power the spell.

But seriously how does a Wizard not immediately befriend a Warlock once they hit level 12 nothing the GM can do is gonna cause them a problem if he sticks to CR level of the party (If he goes after the Wizard then the party suffers for the Wizard's power right?)

You think a wizard needs a warlock to make that happen? Have you seen what a wizard can do with sixth level spells?

[DwarfInTheFlask]

No I know, but I was more meaning the fact that a Warlock can scribe scrolls of EVERY SPELL and the Wizard can just learn them all.

[ryu]

No I know, but I was more meaning the fact that a Warlock can scribe scrolls of EVERY SPELL and the Wizard can just learn them all.

The wizard can just learn all the good ones anyway. This isn't expensive or anything. Hell that goes several times over when you have access to planar binding if you really wanna be stingy with spell learning.

[Ortesk]

If you make it magicka based thats gonna be alot of work tailoring it to be equal to the spell slots. Its honestly less trouble to just take the tried and true method of slots, frankly your gonna be just fine. Focus your slots on non blasty speels. Blasty is bad. Really bad

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I got told a story by a friend of my DM

He was playing a Warlock but decided he wanted to play a wizard so he made the wizard and introduced it as an NPC to the party (GM allowed this) so they had down time between adventurers so his Warlock spent that time to fill the Wizard's spell book with virtually every spell in the book so when his Warlock was retired he brought in his Wizard and had a new character with every spell in the book literally (not sure how he handled the XP costs and so forth.)

EDIT:
It just feels unnecessary to have it prepared and so forth. Don't get me wrong not calling the Wizard useless but its just the casting style bugs me

[Ortesk]

I got told a story by a friend of my DM

He was playing a Warlock but decided he wanted to play a wizard so he made the wizard and introduced it as an NPC to the party (GM allowed this) so they had down time between adventurers so his Warlock spent that time to fill the Wizard's spell book with virtually every spell in the book so when his Warlock was retired he brought in his Wizard and had a new character with every spell in the book literally (not sure how he handled the XP costs and so forth.)

A wizard can have 20000 spells at the ready as a free action if he wants. Can a warlock do that

[DwarfInTheFlask]

A Warlock can have every spell in the game ready given enough time to prep.

And how can a Wizard do that?

[ArqArturo]

Basically Warmages.



A Warlock can have every spell in the game ready given enough time to prep.

And how can a Wizard do that?

Leadership.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

What about Warmage?

How does Leadership do that?

[Ortesk]

Planar binding, mind rape, ect and so forth. Leadership helps of course, but the fact you can make an army of servants all with spells and have there own action in the combat

[Grod_The_Giant]

What about Warmage?

How does Leadership do that?
Warmages (and beguilers, and dread necromancers) have thematically limited lists, but know all the spells on their lists and cast them spontaneously. Leadership would let you acquire a warmage or artificer cohort, I guess?

In any case, while we obviously can't tell you how to play your game, we can say that wizards and clerics are already two of the most powerful classes in the game, and it probably won't do balance any good to remove their only real limit.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

If its a Spell that can be scribed then how can a Warlock not do it?

But anyway. how will it be hard to tailor it? Use the same point systems as the Psions do for their 1-9th level powers.

[Ortesk]

If its a Spell that can be scribed then how can a Warlock not do it?

But anyway. how will it be hard to tailor it? Use the same point systems as the Psions do for their 1-9th level powers.

A warlock can do it in time, by time i mean decades where a wizard can just dedicate slots per day. So the warlock needs a week to make one planer binding, the wizard can do it 5 times a day. 35 summons compared to 1. See where the distance grows?

Ryu knows more about this than i do though, he can give you the fine points

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Well from what I keep seeing that limit is not limiting anything. Also you would be limited by your magicka points and how much you have to spend each time for each power for example Unravel Psionics is a 9th level psionic power in Pathfinder, it costs 17 pp each time its used with a Will Save to Negate.

Because the Erudite is a Tier 2 and runs much like that granted it has a limiter in the UPD, but since that can be argued at 11 each level by level 20 how is that at all a restriction from goin all out. I mean its literally a Wizard who can cast more powers each turn from every level then two wizards.

EDIT: How do you figure it would take years for someone to craft a scroll?
In fact the Feature doesn't actually say he expends EXP in the normal text just in failure text.

If the Wizard is Instantly God level, why is it a class? Why is it not Auto banned at every table?

[ryu]

A Warlock can have every spell in the game ready given enough time to prep.

And how can a Wizard do that?

Better. A high level wizard can have every GOOD spell in the game across all three general tier one spell lists available as purely mental or immediate actions. Would you like to hear the story of the thousand contingency-filled, fine-sized, robe-dwelling ice assassin dragon pets?

Edit: Sorry for not noticing your edit. I follow many things at once even within this forum and usually go by the little button turning green. Why is the wizard not immediately banned? At some tables it actually is. Have you read the tier system and its variants? If so imagine what is described in this post as frighteningly high tier one power to relatively decent tier zero power.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Ok
So if a Wizard can do all that and basically win the campaign simply by making a wizard... how?

A Wizard of such power would remove any competition and you all know this. If they can literally warp the universe to the point they can single handily slaughter gods they could easily remove all references of the spells from the world. In fact there is a psionic power that removes memories.. do that to every arcane caster and thus you have no Wizard class, just 1 Wizard who is now the One Above All.

So by that logic there is no such class as a Wizard and cannot be.

[ryu]

Ok
So if a Wizard can do all that and basically win the campaign simply by making a wizard... how?

A Wizard of such power would remove any competition and you all know this. If they can literally warp the universe to the point they can single handily slaughter gods they could easily remove all references of the spells from the world. In fact there is a psionic power that removes memories.. do that to every arcane caster and thus you have no Wizard class, just 1 Wizard who is now the One Above All.

So by that logic there is no such class as a Wizard and cannot be.

That's actually a variant of the tippyverse. Evil wizard took over and rules the populace. Also I added in a response by edit while you were making this to explain the level of power that trick holds.

As for how? The first step in my method involves successfully casting ice assassin on something with wish as an SLA. I prefer solars because angle summoner. There are countless easy ways of doing this at high level. Then you make it wish for a scroll of ice assassin to make a copy of itself. You then repeat this as far as you like. Then you can begin wishing up ice assassin dragons for thematic pleasure and also polymorph any objecting them fine. At this point you craft contingent spells onto those dragons, solars, yourself, and any party members as you please. Where do you get non wizard spells? If you don't have party mates with the desired lists make ice assassins of people who do in the setting. Suddenly unrivaled power.

Also Ort I totally cut out the mindrapes and saved on five level nine scrolls on my focused specialists. Sweet eh?

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I see, so its a work around with powers.

Doesn't that mean a Disciplined Spell to Power Erudite can do it to?
In fact would a DStP Erudite be better?

[ArqArturo]

Warmages (and beguilers, and dread necromancers) have thematically limited lists, but know all the spells on their lists and cast them spontaneously. Leadership would let you acquire a warmage or artificer cohort, I guess?

In any case, while we obviously can't tell you how to play your game, we can say that wizards and clerics are already two of the most powerful classes in the game, and it probably won't do balance any good to remove their only real limit.

Actually the Leadership bit was that a Wizard with Leadership could get a warlock cohort, making scrolls of every spell posible, so the wizard can just add them.

[ryu]

I see, so its a work around with powers.

Doesn't that mean a Disciplined Spell to Power Erudite can do it to?
In fact would a DStP Erudite be better?

All tier ones and many tier twos can reach this point using native powers in one way or another if not many. That's just the game.

[Ortesk]

A bad player will use all this power and make the dm cry. A good player will play as a superman, i will only use the amount of power needed to meet the current situation. A great player will have all the power ryu mentions, and only use AoE spells and let your comrades beat everything with ease

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I just like the studious type of player who is not just doing it for RP, so it has a benefit that the party sees. Otherwise you're just the pain in the backside who is hunting down 'magic' items or whatever to learn magic but still casting the same spells over and over.

I like the Wizard but I want a more natural flow for powers. I guess that means a DStP Erudite.

[ryu]

A bad player will use all this power and make the dm cry. A good player will play as a superman, i will only use the amount of power needed to meet the current situation. A great player will have all the power ryu mentions, and only use AoE spells and let your comrades beat everything with ease

Alternatively everyone's on the same page and things just get funny. So good. Have you ever played in an entire party of tier one's not holding back deliberately Ort? It's glorious. How glorious? Two tier ones in this state is like two scoops of raisins. Now imagine five or six.

[Ortesk]

Alternatively everyone's on the same page and things just get funny. So good. Have you ever played in an entire party of tier one's not holding back deliberately Ort? It's glorious. How glorious? Two tier ones in this state is like two scoops of raisins. Now imagine five or six.

Honestly in my groups anything i build is told to hold back, i have to put a collar on each build i make. I build a grappler and have to hold back. I cant fathom getting to unleash all the power i can use at my disposal

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Quick Questions
The Other Alternate Feature for the Erudite is the Favored Discipline, now it says it adds all the powers from that discipline to your list. It treats Arcane magic as a Discipline so in theory it could give you the Discipline Arcane Magic and thus allow you level 9 spells from the Arcane family.

But can you use a scroll of a spell you don't have access too yet, or for psions is not on your discipline list or the regular psion/wilder list?

[ryu]

Honestly in my groups anything i build is told to hold back, i have to put a collar on each build i make. I build a grappler and have to hold back. I cant fathom getting to unleash all the power i can use at my disposal

Think of it terms of the ultimate expression of thinking like batman. when both sides have unlimited resources the one that plans more contingencies wins.

[Ortesk]

Think of it terms of the ultimate expression of thinking like batman. when both sides have unlimited resources the one that plans more contingencies wins.

I built a maybe tier 4 guy who was a one trick pony. He grappled at level 15 around 86 or so, before rolling a dice. He was killed off for power levels. I made a dual wand wileder who beat him, at level 7. Thats the group i play with

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Can either of you two answer my questions?

[ryu]

with enough UMD literally any magic item can be used from level one. UMD is also fairly easy to obtain. If it's on your class' spell list and not specifically banned you don't even need UMD. A level one wizard who hasn't banned conjuration can cast a scroll of gate from level one if he somehow finds one.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Hmm

Ok so lets say I somehow talked my GM into letting me get Psychic Chirurgery from an NPC who used it on me and so forth. Then I could cast it from a stone right? Since a stone is like a scroll for a psionic?

Couldn't you then teach it to someone and have them empty their powers into your head regardless of disciplines?

[ryu]

Hmm

Ok so lets say I somehow talked my GM into letting me get Psychic Chirurgery from an NPC who used it on me and so forth. Then I could cast it from a stone right? Since a stone is like a scroll for a psionic?

Couldn't you then teach it to someone and have them empty their powers into your head regardless of disciplines?

I don't psionic often. I'm basically working on the law of transparency and what I'm familiar with in terms of normal magic. I do know that one way or the other there are ways of achieving exactly that result and sillier ones.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I was thinking a Psion with that would be interesting.

But I kinda want to Build a StP Erudite now.

But I need to know about the Discipline thing, if that would work as it treats all Spells converted to Powers as a discipline

[Big Fau]

EDIT:
It just feels unnecessary to have it prepared and so forth. Don't get me wrong not calling the Wizard useless but its just the casting style bugs me

Two words: Uncanny Forethought.

[Menzath]

Seems like this thread has gotten slightly de-railed.
But I would like to mention that UA(Uneathed Arcanna) goes over changing magic to a point system similar to psionics and casters still have to prepare spells usable that day, but are not limited to a single casting of said spells.
So it is a lot like changing your spells known list everday if you were to compare it to psionics.
And of course the bonus for sorcerers(or favored souls) is that they get more magic "points" under this system.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Yes it has, and thanks for the information.