Dismissible Spell Question

[Diarmuid]

Does a caster always know that a dismissible spell is still in effect?

[aeauseth]

I don't think the rules adress this. I'd think in order to dismiss a spell you would need line of signt and line of effect. Under those conditions it would be obvious if your spell was still in effect.

[Diarmuid]

Glyph of warding doesn't have an obvious visible effect to know whether or not its there or not.

Is the line of effect/line of sight thing just your opinion or is that actually spelled out somewhere.

[Emperor Tippy]

Is the line of effect/line of sight thing just your opinion or is that actually spelled out somewhere.
Spelled out.


(D) Dismissible

If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell’s effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell’s verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

A spell that depends on concentration is dismissible by its very nature, and dismissing it does not take an action, since all you have to do to end the spell is to stop concentrating on your turn.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration

[Diarmuid]

So, would it be safe to assume that if you were within range/sight of an effect you would be able to determine that it was still active?

[aeauseth]

So, would it be safe to assume that if you were within range/sight of an effect you would be able to determine that it was still active?

Just because it is YOUR spell doesn't necessarily mean you KNOW if it is active. If the spell effect wasn't obvious there are spellcraft checks, detect magic, sense motive checks, etc to determine if the spell is still active. The DM may grant a circumstance bonus to the Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) check (normally 20 + spell level) since it is your spell.

Feel free to share the specific spell you had in mind. I'll use Charm Person for my example. If you case Charm Person on someone, how do you KNOW it worked? Perhaps they are bluffing? If someone casts dispel on the charmed individual, how do you know if they are still charmed or not? Again, they could be bluffing.

[Diarmuid]

Charm Person isnt "Dismissible" so not a great example. Glyph of Warding is specifically the spell I had in mind.

The DM's in my group have always waffled on whether Detect Magic can/should be able to discern magical traps. I think it should by RAW, but they generally feel it goes against the spirit of the traps and makes them too easily avoided. My character also lacks the trapfinding skills to locate a magical trap in place.

Certainly I can simply use the passcode to not trigger the Glyph, but I'm going to be interested to know if it has been triggered or not without resorting to triggering it myself.

[hymer]

Glyph of Warding should be easy to see once you open the chest or whatever. The spell description mentions tracing a glyph, and even what you're using to make it.

[Diarmuid]

I'm talking about after it's in effect. Yes you trace the glyph and use materials, but once in place they are not obvious,



Note: Magic traps such as glyph of warding are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for glyph of warding

[aeauseth]

I'm talking about after it's in effect. Yes you trace the glyph and use materials, but once in place they are not obvious,

My understanding of the Glyph of Warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) spell is that you weave a tracery of faintly glowing lines around the warding sigil. A glyph can be placed to conform to any shape up to the limitations of your total square footage. When the spell is completed, the glyph and tracery become nearly invisible. The warding sigil remains visible. I'd equate a sigil to a visible design in the material. The sigil is obvious and might even be a universally known sign for "keep out". The glyph (magic spell portion) is traced over the mundane warding sigil. When complete the warding sigil is still visible, the magic glyph is not.

I admit that the statement of "you weave a tracery of faintly glowing lines around the warding sigil" is vague. Does that mean you trace the sigil or you draw around (not on) the sigil? In my games I've always assumed you traced over the visible warding sigil.

From a game play point of view the DM might say there are some ruins carved into the stone. Or the door mantle has evil markings around the casing. Regardless I've always assumed the Glyph had to be traced over a visible marking of sorts.

Detect Magic should see the glyph. I understand your quote of " A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it". I read this as only a rogue can use the search skill to find the glyph, not that the only way to find the glyph is to search for it. I believe the reason they say "rogue only" is that only a class with the trapfinding ability can search for traps with a DC over 20.

[Diarmuid]

I agree the wording is vague. Tracing a glyph or rune doesnt necessarily leave anything once you're done.

I also agree that Detect Magic should be able to spot the glyph, but as I mentioned above, most of the DM's I game with feel this is unfair to rogues and so they dont let DM spot any kind of magical trap "otherwise what's the point" in their mind.

I've tried explaining that DM doesnt go "bloop bloop, that's a trap", it merely says A) There's magic over there, B) There's X magic's over there, and C) The magics over there are this strong, and then a successful Spellcraft check can help identify the school of magic. So at best, the caster of DM would know that there was a Faint magic on that spot on the wall of Abjurative type.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable use of a resource in my opinion, but they dont necessarily see it that way and it's not a big enough deal to make a stink over so I just roll with it.

So, assuming it's still active...and I'm within the Glyph spell's area (assuming I've given the passphrase) and we assume I cannot physically perceive the spell in any way...am I as the caster able to determine that the spell is or isnt still in place and have the option of dismissing it?

[aeauseth]

So, assuming it's still active...and I'm within the Glyph spell's area (assuming I've given the passphrase) and we assume I cannot physically perceive the spell in any way...am I as the caster able to determine that the spell is or isnt still in place and have the option of dismissing it?

I clearly see your quandary now. You create a glyph of warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) to protect your chest of valuables. You travel for awhile, come back home. Now you want to know if your glyph is still intact? Perfectly reasonable question and you SHOULD easily be able to answer it.

However, your DM has ruled that detect magic won't work on Glyph's, making this question very difficult to answer. Intentionally triggering the trap is an obvious solution, but far from ideal. Re-casting the Glyph of Warding avoids the issue, but it doesn't tell you if someone's been snooping in your things.

The range on Glyph of Warding is touch. You might be able to determine if the spell was still in effect by simply touching the glyph or associated warding sigil. You might also be able to dismiss the spell by touch. Seems like a reasonable solution, you'll have to consult your DM.

Without Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm) you can't really apply a Spellcraft check because you can't see or detect the effects of the spell.

Have you discussed this particular issue with your DM? At some point he must realize the he has to provide some practical mechanism for you to determine if someone has triggered your Glyph of Warding.

[nyjastul69]

I'd talk to your DM about the unintended consequences of his house rule. Detect Magic should certainly be able to detect a spell that's in effect. It might not be able to detect all magical traps, but it certainly should be able to detect a glyph of warding.

[TuggyNE]

My understanding of the Glyph of Warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) spell is that you weave a tracery of faintly glowing lines around the warding sigil. A glyph can be placed to conform to any shape up to the limitations of your total square footage. When the spell is completed, the glyph and tracery become nearly invisible. The warding sigil remains visible. I'd equate a sigil to a visible design in the material. The sigil is obvious and might even be a universally known sign for "keep out". The glyph (magic spell portion) is traced over the mundane warding sigil. When complete the warding sigil is still visible, the magic glyph is not.

As far as I can tell, the warding sigil is the glyph. The terms are synonymous, and there are only ever two visible components of the spell: the glyph (or warding sigil) and the tracery. Both are hard to detect when the spell is complete.