Need a better understanding (Psionics)

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Ok so I am wanting to build a Erudite with replacement features. The Favored Discipline and Spell to Power, it says bonus feat, both the bonus and the psicrystal feat are bonus feats so both can be removed at least from what I have read.

What I am curious of is this. An Erudite can learn spells as power from unconscious or willing arcane spellcasters. It can only be of the level that he can currently cast. This cost some EXP if I recall correctly.

Now I know the Thought Bottle Trick (Read a full thread on it on this very forum)

But I found this feat as well, and when researching it found a post somewhere that pointed something out to me.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Transference_%283.5e_Feat%29
I know its DandDwiki but take it with a grain of salt.

Now it says that is cannot be forced on someone, but only those willing. Doesn't D&D count unconscious foes as willing for the effects of other spells and effects? So couldn't you use this feat for the purposes of the Exp loss?

Now I know Psychic chirurgery can also give powers from other disciplines and the like. So I am curious if I found a Psion 17 and asked them to teach me powers, they would lose EXP or I would its a choice. If I had someone unconscious with me I could use that Transference feat correct? To pay off the EXP cost?

If I thought bottled my victim and then kept then knocked out in a bag of holding with a bottle of air stuffed in their mouth could I farm them for EXP?
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Now to the Favored Discipline question. Arcane spells are counted as Discipline powers when learned via StP, however it does not give a name. So its an untyped Discipline or one could assume the Arcane Discipline of the Psion/Erudite. If I took Favored Discipline as one of my feat replacements do you think that would work? This would in theory allow me to learn level 9 arcane powers as I would treat them as part of my Psion/Wilder List.

Now that that is out of the way.
I need help with a Guide/Build for a Erudite, what race is best. Since this is gonna be in a PF game my GM lets me use +1 LA races for free due to the boost in power. Or +2/+3 with a GM Given Fault/Flaw.

What are the best psion/wilder powers to take at level 1, what gear should he get for himself? What weapons should he carry?

[Psyren]

I've seen bad feats on DandDwiki before but ugh.

Anyway, knocking them out would count as forcing them in my book.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Unconscious foes count as willing for every other feature in the game.

What makes it so bad, doesn't most creation feat already use this, little bit of mine, little bit of yours method?
Also what about the rest of it?

[Rubik]

Unconscious creatures "automatically count as willing," which is pretty creepy, if you ask me.

[TuggyNE]

If I had someone unconscious with me I could use that Transference feat correct? To pay off the EXP cost?

No. It's not item creation, not even a little.

The feat is a terrible one, but it's not that stupid.


What makes it so bad, doesn't most creation feat already use this, little bit of mine, little bit of yours method?

No, they don't.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

[Psyren]

Unconscious foes count as willing for every other feature in the game.

Other features don't have "Under no circumstances can another creature ever be forced (even through a wish spell) to succumb to this effect." The intent (if that word even means anything for DDW material) is clearly that you cannot inflict this on someone by any means, they have to volunteer.

I'm not sure NPCs even have XP to steal in this method, unless you're planning on knocking out party members or something.




Also what about the rest of it?

Psion Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=10238.0)

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Yes I noticed this, but I do not think that should be that hard to work or wait till the debuff fails.

EDIT: I was thinking that if they have class levels they must have EXP as they are the appropriate level for those classes. So a lvl 10 Sorcerer for example as the EXP of a LVl 10 Sorcerer by default.

But yes I agree no other one does, however Knocked out or straight Unconscious foes are not being Forced, they are helpless and are not being forced they are compliant which works normally like a volunteer.
I believe that text is to prevent people from doing the Planer Bind stuff to get force slaves to do it.

[TuggyNE]

Yes I noticed this, but I do not think that should be that hard to work or wait till the debuff fails.

EDIT: I was thinking that if they have class levels they must have EXP as they are the appropriate level for those classes. So a lvl 10 Sorcerer for example as the EXP of a LVl 10 Sorcerer by default.

But yes I agree no other one does, however Knocked out or straight Unconscious foes are not being Forced, they are helpless and are not being forced they are compliant which works normally like a volunteer.
I believe that text is to prevent people from doing the Planer Bind stuff to get force slaves to do it.

The question is entirely academic, since the trick wouldn't do what you wanted even if it worked.

[Psyren]

There's really no point in arguing about it - if you're using DanDwiki then you may as well just houserule whatever you want to happen. It's not like you were in RAW to begin with, nor even 3rd party.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

What if it was to create Power stones. I would create the spell from them as a power. At least I could argue I could. I mean I can learn the spell as a power and I can inscribe powers into stones, which as long as I am not learning it into my repertoire I shouldn't have to pay the EXP cost. Then I could learn it from the stone.

I do need to reread the Erudite on this one.

It does say it is using OGL wouldn't that make it 3rd party?
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But forget the feat thought bottle handles this from what I read.

what about the rest of my OP?

[Rubik]

What if it was to create Power stones. I would create the spell from them as a power. At least I could argue I could. I mean I can learn the spell as a power and I can inscribe powers into stones, which as long as I am not learning it into my repertoire I shouldn't have to pay the EXP cost. Then I could learn it from the stone.

I do need to reread the Erudite on this one.Can't you learn from the person himself? Just pay someone to share his knowledge with you, share favors (of whatever flavor), or knock him unconscious and do it then.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I have every intent on learning them from people myself. This was more asking if a trick would work that would allow me to use my enemies as resources to learn them. I could always do the Thought Bottle or just regular expending EXP. This idea was just funny to me, to use the baddy to make myself more powerful.

Also the Feat comes from a thing called DnD Netbook of Feats
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Netbook_of_Feats
They claim to be using OGL and that they put it on DnDWiki for people to easily see. So wouldn't that be 3rd Party?

Anyway I would love advice on what to do with an Erudite, and whether my other question works? The Discipline question, I know loads recommend the Magic Mantle version though.

[Rubik]

You could always just Dominate them and make them create the power stones yourself, assuming you didn't want to just use them directly. Of course, the Mindrape spell will let you know everything they do, meaning you get all of their spells and/or powers. Observe:


The caster enters the mind of a creature, learning everything that creature knows.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Its a level nine arcane spell

Unless my discipline idea indeed does work StP Erudites cannot cast Lvl 9 Spells.

[Rubik]

Its a level nine arcane spell

Unless my discipline idea indeed does work StP Erudites cannot cast Lvl 9 Spells.This is what scrolls and power stones are for. It's not even that expensive, and it saves you a potential ton of XP.

[Psyren]

Erudites can learn 9th-level spells/powers post-epic. All you need to is craft an epic power, which counts as a 10th-level power for any purpose where power level is important.

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I am just saying he could never learn it himself. He would have to go to a wizard or whatever to buy the 9th level scroll which is no that much but could be a hassle if you're not near a city to get access to one. (Kingmaker for example)

But yeah this would be a great way to bypass that 1 at a time power/spell thing.

[Rubik]

If you had Heighten Spell (qualifying for it via the Magic Mantle, with the easy-as-anything conversion from slots to power points, via mind mage, if nothing else), wouldn't you be able to learn 9th level powers as soon as you hit ML 19?

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I believe that is close to the trick mentioned with magic mantle. The Discipline idea was just more simple. Since it says the spells are treated as a discipline power, just add that discipline to your list, thus you can learn lvl 9s.

[Ortesk]

Generally dnd wiki is fairly bad. I use only flaws and traits from it personally, generally a player homwbrewed it, went super OP because it fit what he was playing at the time, and he put it on dnd wiki.


So you wanting to have all powers/spells known? Easy enough, if you use and abuse UMD

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Erudites can learn from Scrolls and the like, so this is not an issue it was more to get the 9th level arcane spells without having to jump around with magic mantle

[Ortesk]

Erudites can learn from Scrolls and the like, so this is not an issue it was more to get the 9th level arcane spells without having to jump around with magic mantle

UMD as class skill, Skill focus Umd, take a level dip in marshall or feat Extra Minor Aura (Charisma), item familiar at level 3, by level 10 your have 13+13+8+3+2 (Synergy) +D20/ It costs you very little to do, and you can basically take 10 and get 49 each time. Bam level 9 spells at level 10

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I might use that if someone could tell me if my discipline idea wouldn't work.

I am curious because it should work I think.

[Eldaran]

While that feat is terrible, it's based on equally terrible WotC material (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a).

[DwarfInTheFlask]

Ok I don't get it but I don't want to side track this thread much more.

Why is it so terrible an idea that if you're crafting a magic item for someone that you get them to help offset the XP cost or take it entirely after all they want the item so dang bad.

[Ortesk]

Ok I don't get it but I don't want to side track this thread much more.

Why is it so terrible an idea that if you're crafting a magic item for someone that you get them to help offset the XP cost or take it entirely after all they want the item so dang bad.

If there willing they can help you out at making the item, but generally any dm who sees a guy going i wanna make a magic item using slaves xp is gonna laugh and say Nope

Heres a mild scenario

I buy 10000 Hobgoblin slaves for 300000 gold They can give me say 1500 XP each. so 15000000 XP. Using it on items i can make 750,000,000 GP worth of items. See the issue?

[DwarfInTheFlask]

So basically do what PF does and remove XP cost from the game entirely right?
Couldn't you also do the same thing by yourself with just a lot of time and bugging the hell out of the GM for XP (Gaming constantly to renew the lost xp)

Did I mention this is PF so I was more just curious since XP cost don't exist in PF its just a gold cost right?

[Ortesk]

So basically do what PF does and remove XP cost from the game entirely right?
Couldn't you also do the same thing by yourself with just a lot of time and bugging the hell out of the GM for XP (Gaming constantly to renew the lost xp)

Did I mention this is PF so I was more just curious since XP cost don't exist in PF its just a gold cost right?

If no exp cost and only gold, make a factory of sombies making something, sell and fund magic item building with that. Then you do the next logical step, UMD your own little plane of existance where 1 minute Material realm = 1 year Dwarf in the Flask's happy place. Then have undead making you magic items why'll you adventure. In about a month you should by theory just buy the world