Running Away !

[CyberThread]

So Realism Vs DM Mercy


Something that should have been an easy fight, turns into a disaster, due to bad rolls not bad tactics or player interactions.


Players decide to flee ( pretend they just free don't think on location or difficulties of terrain ). How realistic should the chasing be, and how much mercy should a DM show in monster habits or fudging dice rolls in detecting or giving up on chasing the fleeing players.

[holywhippet]

It's highly situational IMO. Is the monsters intelligent or stupid? For the former, will the monster see a problem with allowing you to live - like you might bring back reinforcements or tell others where they can be found. For the latter, are they hungry or have you angered them enough that they will pursue you?

Are you in the monsters territory? Are you fleeing to an area they might feel threatened? Is their movement speed faster than yours? How badly hurt are they and how hurt are you?

If you need to flee, keep spells like summon monster and grease in mind. You can in something to keep your enemy distracted or delayed for a round or two while you get a head start.

[Zweisteine]

Depends on stuff like this:
Niceness of DM
Niceness of party
Cheesiness of party
Monster intelligence
Monster/party speed
Encounter environment
Other stuff

[fishyfishyfishy]

I feel it depends on what they are fleeing from. I try to RP monsters according to their alignments/personalities and their motivations. If it's just a few hungry dire wolves, they are probably not going to let the PC's get away without taking one of them down for snacking on. And they would probably come back for more later after tracking them back to their new camp sight. If the PC's are retreating from a big Red Dragon that has little interest in the PC's, and was only fighting them to defend it's horde, it might make a passing attempt to slay them and take their stuff but would probably let them get away if they seem terrified enough.

I should note that I don't pull any punches with my players. If their character survived at -9 HP and stabilized there, it's not because I was taking it easy on them. The dice just worked out that way.

[Mountain]

How far a monster will pursue is really situational. If you walked into a bear cave, the bear might just chase you to the exit, and then go back to sleep. If you were caught stealing from a dragon's hoard, it will chase you for the rest of its life, or yours.

As a DM, I don't fudge the dice. I hate it when the DM does that when I'm playing. I want to survive (or not) on my own merit.

As for adjudicating the chase, there is actually a precedent for creatures of the same speed racing against one another. They make an opposed DEX check, and the winner gains slightly on the other. Of course, if the monster is faster (they often are) it will catch the party and finish them off.

[ArcturusV]

Honestly depends. Say for example my party fails against some Elves, and decides to run away. Are the elves unscathed? They probably are going to press the chase until their objective is accomplished. If it's merely "Keep the adventurers out of our sacred grove" they'll probably just pace the adventurers until they are certain they aren't coming back.

If the adventurers dispatched some elves but ran away because they might lose/die or suffer a Pyrrhic victory, they might not chase but decide to take the reprieve they were given and get some reinforcements, maybe track down the dangerous adventurers after they get some boys together, some dogs to track, etc.

Just the things I tend to keep in mind:

Morale: Not all enemies want to fight to the bloody end, and may decide to take a break themselves. A bandit band that is decimated but not destroyed before the players cut and run might decide to just cut and run themselves.
Objectives: If their goal is just "Defend a place" they don't really have a directive to fight to the death if the enemy is running.
Resources: Determines what their most logical course of action might be. For example getting extra allies, or expending magic to top themselves off for an immediate chase, etc.

[Zweisteine]

And don't forget that even a predatory animal might give up on a prey that is hard to catch.

[ArcturusV]

I tend not to use animals. Because nothing ruins epic heroic fantasy quite like quests to kill rats, spiders, and dogs...

[CyberThread]

Spiders?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S5A-g_EOstI/AAAAAAAACBA/2zoWZe3PUkU/s400/SPIDER9.png

[Isamu Dyson]

Because nothing ruins epic heroic fantasy quite like quests to kill rats, spiders, and dogs...

Even Dire Paragon Rats?

[ArqArturo]

It also depends of the creature, it could be the legendary black beast of AAAAAGGH!!! (http://youtu.be/LJfowXTXOfU).

[Averis Vol]

Spiders?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S5A-g_EOstI/AAAAAAAACBA/2zoWZe3PUkU/s400/SPIDER9.png


Holy **** **** dude. Yea, thats messed up.

On a similar tangent, nothing ruins a heroic story like getting killed by a swarm of rats because the party was unprepared.

EDIT: right, there was another point to this thread. I'll mimic others and say that if my party were to ever flee (They aren't bright; they will stay and die before running) it would depend on the enemy. Right now they are deep deep deep in Gnoll territory, so the chances of them being chased are much greater then simply by one of the many bandit holds on the road.

I actually think, ultimately, the CR of the creature is what determines if they run. Normally a large sized+ dragon won't chase a group of adventurers; its more hazardous to them, and being that powerful generally means they're wise enough not to chase. Equally I don't see a beholder going far out of its comfort zone for the PC's.

Highwayman on the other hand make their living off of robberies, so they are far more inclined to chase these rich looking folk down if they already have them on the run.

[holywhippet]

On a similar tangent, nothing ruins a heroic story like getting killed by a swarm of rates because the party was unprepared.


Yeah, the local government hitting the party with taxes until they go bust would ruin a campaign wouldn't it?

[ArcturusV]

Actually I'd think a Dragon would always chase adventurers. A) Those monkeys ALWAYS come back for my lucky charms. They never give up on it. B) A dragon's ideal fighting circumstances is outside it's lair, out in the open where it can use it's mobility to full effect, rain down spells and breath weapons, etc. Even "stupid" dragons (like an 11 int white dragon) are smart enough to piece that together.

[ChaoticDitz]

Yeah, the local government hitting the party with taxes until they go bust would ruin a campaign wouldn't it?

You are a monster of the worst sort for making such a good joke out of such a small spelling error.

[Cirrylius]

Speaking as a player who virtually always has a crap movement rate compared to virtually every monster he faces, I would like to see fleeing made into a viable combat tactic once in a goddamn while.:smallyuk:

[Averis Vol]

Yeah, the local government hitting the party with taxes until they go bust would ruin a campaign wouldn't it?

ahhhh, what you did there, I see it. Egg all over my face here.

[Spore]

Speaking as a player who virtually always has a crap movement rate compared to virtually every monster he faces, I would like to see fleeing made into a viable combat tactic once in a goddamn while.:smallyuk:

I'd make a sequence of obstacles that let the dices decide. We bought those cards (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8yst) after testing the concept with custom made ones.

It's like: You have an old withered wooden bridge across the river or you can swim through the river. DC 10 Swim check or DC 15 Acrobatics (or "insert cleverly chosen roll from PC a"). Failure of one PC doesn't mean death but it means the followers gain some time as you have to help your heavily armored BSF out of the water. (Plus, if you know you are followed by evil demonic knights, just cut the bridge after you).

It is honestly a great concept, it is immersive and if you decide to show mercy, the DM fiat isn't as visible.

[Fouredged Sword]

Dire Rate Swarm
- Tiny Legal structure (Incorporeal, Swarm)
- HD 4d4 (10)
- Space/Reach - 10ft, 1 government
- Attacks - +0 audit (1d1-1 + taxes)
Attributes - Str 4, Dex 20, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 4

Special attacks - Each time a Dire Rate Swarm attacks an target, it looses 1d4* target's level in gp. If the target lacks the currency, it now owes that amount to the local government.

They move in groups of 1-10 swarms, accumpanied by an evil tax accountant (always evil) or two.

[Amphetryon]

What's the (generic term) monster's reason for fighting? Is the fight in defense of territory or young? Is the fight for food - either in the form of the PCs, or scarce resources? Is the monster intelligent, and - if intelligent - is it malicious? Is the monster familiar with the terrain at all (I know you said to discount the PCs' knowledge of terrain, but the monster's knowledge of it matters)?

The answers to all of these things, combined with the general expectations of the Players in your group, are varied, leading to no single answer being correct here.

[Marlowe]

What if the party knew they outmatched from the start and their entire plan for the encounter was to flush the boss out with molotov cocktails, then whittle it down with acid flasks and crossbow bolts while running in different directions everytime it got close?

"We all have "Expeditious retreat" prepared tonight."

"...really?"

"Really."

[Zweisteine]

I wasn't just talking about animals. Even the Tarrasque might stop chasing a party if they run past a herd of elephants.

[Emperor Tippy]

Depends on level, the monster, the situation, and the method of running.

If the party flees via something like teleport or plane shift then no, generally bad guys won't chase them down. This is because the stupid bad guys who would just chase them tend to lack the ability to follow the PC's and the smart bad guys that do have the ability and resources to track down and follow the PC's are also the ones smart enough to realize that the PC's probably fled back to a location that is very heavily secured and is basically a death trap for anyone else trying to invade.

Honestly, unless you have Wish then there is no real universal way to follow after a fleeing enemy at higher levels. Greater Teleport on, say, Earth means that you could be hiding out in the middle of the Andromeda Galaxy just as easily as you could be hiding out a mile away. Plane Shift randomly drops an individual in a five hundred mile radius area on another plane; not easy to track. Then by the time you have used divination's to track down your foe, said foe has probably been all healed up and its basically an entirely new fight except your foe knows your tricks.

At lower levels it's actually somewhat practicable to track a fleeing foe but even then you have the problem of alternative movement methods, ambushes, traps, and other magic. This is especially likely if none of the adventurers have actually died in a conflict. They get beat up, making it look good, and then flee from you for a mile or so back to where they have a few hundred level 1 archers standing around in prepared positions and with readied actions to shoot you full of arrows.

Now sure, lots of PC's are too stupid to run the reverse ambush but that is no reason to play NPC's and enemies equally stupid.

[unseenmage]

It has been my actual factual play experience in 3.5 that fleeing always fails when the opponents have bows. Even when the flee-ees manage to round corners the pursuers manage to catch up and riddle their backs with bolts, arrows, and range: long magics.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It has been my actual factual play experience in 3.5 that fleeing always fails when the opponents have bows. Even when the flee-ees manage to round corners the pursuers manage to catch up and riddle their backs with bolts, arrows, and range: long magics.

Yeah, and a lot of monsters are faster than them. Unless you're specifically preparing for the possibility of retreat, it's likely that you won't be able to.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, and a lot of monsters are faster than them. Unless you're specifically preparing for the possibility of retreat, it's likely that you won't be able to.

Note the "lots of PC's are too stupid" bit in my post.

Smart PC's prepare for failure, fast retreats, and things not going to plan.

[Ranting Fool]

Not to mention that running away just isn't that easy unless you've got a higher base speed / speed spell handy.

Straight up fleeing = tends to mean AoO + shot in the back (and if you're wounded enough to run this can finish you off) or Withdraw (at half movement) and then get charged on their turn.

Running only works if you have someway/ally to slow your foe down.

[Mountain]

Smart PC's prepare for failure, fast retreats, and things not going to plan.

This. I never play a character who doesn't have at least two methods of reliably escaping from a CR appropriate encounter. At low levels, sanctuary is fairly reliable. Later on, it's all about teleporting. (with teleportation, I can save a few friends too.)

[Karoht]

Intelligent creatures, especially casters, are probably going to let the party run, but actively hunt them later.
Especially if that creature is a caster with access to things like Scrying, Locate Creature, etc.

Why later you might ask?
Okay, so your party broke in and wrecked up the place a bit, killed off some minions, the caster burned some resources in the combat which scared off the party.
The caster is now down resources. And may not necessarily have sufficient resources to pursue. If it is a prepared caster, the advantage is entirly for the caster to wait, scry for a day or two, and then prepare a spell list designed to cripple or kill the party as quickly as possible, and preparing any other tactics or instructions with any minions the caster wants to bring along with.

Then there's Steve the Aboleth.
"Go ahead. Come back with other adventurers and equipment. I'll wait."

[GybeMark]

DM kills off party = game over.

My own thoughts for an ideal outcome would be something along the lines of "give the party a chance to escape to heal/return later, but it has to cost the party something". Maybe the escape tunnel isn't wide enough to fit the 10,000gp sack of coins the party found, or the monsters agree to ransom the party's lives for the +2 longsword the leader is carrying, or something.

[Amphetryon]

DM kills off party = game over.

My own thoughts for an ideal outcome would be something along the lines of "give the party a chance to escape to heal/return later, but it has to cost the party something". Maybe the escape tunnel isn't wide enough to fit the 10,000gp sack of coins the party found, or the monsters agree to ransom the party's lives for the +2 longsword the leader is carrying, or something.

The potential problem here is that the above attitude re: party mortality can lead some Players to behave as if their Characters are fundamentally invincible. In turn, this can lead to quite the impressive hissy fit when belief in that invincibility is shown to be in error.

It gets more fun when some of the Players at your table want that "I am invincible" escapism, when an equal number of Players at the same table want the portrayal of "combat and life are ugly, brutish, and short, with mistakes painfully - and sometimes fatally - punished by the adversary."

What, me bitter?

[Karoht]

The potential problem here is that the above attitude re: party mortality can lead some Players to behave as if their Characters are fundamentally invincible. In turn, this can lead to quite the impressive hissy fit when belief in that invincibility is shown to be in error.

It gets more fun when some of the Players at your table want that "I am invincible" escapism, when an equal number of Players at the same table want the portrayal of "combat and life are ugly, brutish, and short, with mistakes painfully - and sometimes fatally - punished by the adversary."
What, me bitter?
Been there, done that.
Party encountered a CR appropriate encounter.
The party barbarian (who had been turned into a Vampire) nearly flipped the table (by which I mean he half lifted it, then his girlfriend stopped him), when he was defeated by said encounter. He was killed inside of one standard action, his gripe was that he had no chance to act or defend himself.

He's a vampire. He was forced into mist form, and was back in his coffin within a minute. He didn't even have to pay for a res.

The cost of a res was also complained about. This in a party where WBL was absolutely shattered to the point where one character was sitting on 170K (at level 12ish) and was whining that he couldn't figure out how he wanted to spend it. The 10-25K price for a res was apparently too much.



DM kills off party = game over.
My own thoughts for an ideal outcome would be something along the lines of "give the party a chance to escape to heal/return later, but it has to cost the party something". Maybe the escape tunnel isn't wide enough to fit the 10,000gp sack of coins the party found, or the monsters agree to ransom the party's lives for the +2 longsword the leader is carrying, or something.
When first the party failed to kill Steve the Aboleth, he got fed up with the survivors and instructed them to just leave. Which they did.
When second the party failed to kill Steve the Aboleth, he stripped them of pretty much the majority of their wealth (gold, a weapon, and a ring of protection), and then instructed them to just leave. Which they did.
When third the party failed to kill Steve the Aboleth, and Steve again took most of their wealth, Steve opened up an item shop shortly thereafter.

The party thrice tried to kill the Steve. But the Aboleth struck them down, to the ground!

"In Soviet Dungeon, Aboleth farms you!"--Karoht, in regards to Steve the Aboleth

[Marlowe]

It gets more fun when some of the Players at your table want that "I am invincible" escapism, when an equal number of Players at the same table want the portrayal of "combat and life are ugly, brutish, and short, with mistakes painfully - and sometimes fatally - punished by the adversary."

What, me bitter?

Oh, you mean you've had that 2-weapon fighting...Fighter who insists on going and charging the Ogre Barbarian when it's perfectly obvious to the rest of the party that the appearance of the Ogre Barbarian was a sign to skedaddle?

[unseenmage]

DM kills off party = game over.

My own thoughts for an ideal outcome would be something along the lines of "give the party a chance to escape to heal/return later, but it has to cost the party something". Maybe the escape tunnel isn't wide enough to fit the 10,000gp sack of coins the party found, or the monsters agree to ransom the party's lives for the +2 longsword the leader is carrying, or something.

Which is why I intentionally made my own post participant neutral.
Regardless of the pursuer or the pursue-ees PC membership the results will usually be the same. Either those chased find cover quick, or they die horrible deaths with pointy ouchy thing-wounds in their backs.

Then again, Alignment is a part of the rules here, as is Diplomacy-style attitude. Those things could factor in to how successful an escape might be.
Now I'm seeing a Lupan the Third style game where Diplomacy rolls are only used to enable dramatic and ridiculous escapes.

[Angelalex242]

Depends on the PC party too.

Rogue:Eek, we're outgunned, RUUUUN!
Paladin:Yeah, sorry, code of ethics says fight to the death or be a fighter with no feats. Charge
Cleric:Sigh. I'll back you.
Wizard:Friggin' ethics...well, I'm not going to abandon my noble comrades...

Rogue:Screw you all, I'm hella outta here, yo!

[Emperor Tippy]

Depends on the PC party too.

Rogue:Eek, we're outgunned, RUUUUN!
Paladin:Yeah, sorry, code of ethics says fight to the death or be a fighter with no feats. Charge
Cleric:Sigh. I'll back you.
Wizard:Friggin' ethics...well, I'm not going to abandon my noble comrades...

Rogue:Screw you all, I'm hella outta here, yo!

That is why all Paladin's must have a Craft Contingent Temporal Stasis on them with a triggering condition of "any of these individuals say this word" and auto fail the save.

Can't let those pesky programming flaws make the Paladin go out of control, always make sure that you have an emergency override.

Actually played with a rogue type character who wished one of those onto the Paladin.

[Scumbaggery]

Yeah, the local government hitting the party with taxes until they go bust would ruin a campaign wouldn't it?

Genius. My next BBEG is going to be a lord with ridiculous taxes.

"How much would it be to buy a small meal and some wine?"
"6,400 gold."
"Wait, what?! Why?"
"Times are tough."

[Angelalex242]

Why, Tippy, does that vaguely remind me of Inuyasha's necklace of subjugation?

"Sit Paladin!"

[ArcturusV]

Though that isn't really how a Paladin should act, generally. I don't remember the part of the code of conduct that said "Be suicidal". I mean yeah, Honor is in there, like not stabbing people in the back (Literally, as in not running down someone who is running away), but nothing about Valor and having to take up every challenge offered to them. Even the vague ones like "help those in need" or "Punish those who harm innocents" don't necessarily demand throwing your life away on a hopeless fight. After all, if you go feed your level 4 Paladin ass to a great wyrm red dragon... you didn't help anyone, or punish the dragon at all.

[Angelalex242]

Oh, yeah that's right.

Even under 2e Rules, withdrawal with honor was possible when the enemy doubled your HD, and if you belonged to an elite organization, it was triple your HD.

[ArcturusV]

Granted in 2nd edition the Paladin was a real beast of a character as well, even limited to just 10 magic items and having to tithe 10% of their wealth.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Even with things like the wealth restrictions dropped, the magic item restriction dropped, the code being looser, etc. They're still weaker.

But yeah. It's always weird when there's some misconception over that. I've had to deal with it before as a DM, reminding the Paladin "Yeah... your code isn't actually THAT demanding".

[Angelalex242]

And that's a separate thread. Just why is the 2e paladin so much stronger then his 3e brethren? And what can be done to grant the 3.5e version his 2e strength?