Imprisoning spellcasters in low-magic societies?

[Isamu Dyson]

Asides from binding hands, breaking fingers and gagging mouths, what methods can be employed by low-magic/poorer societies to prevent criminal spellcasters from working their magic?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Summary and messy execution was popular historically.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Intimidation. The threat of death can go a long way towards preventing the practice of D&D magic, but it will never outright stop it. A few low level spell casters might still be practicing their art in secret, and probably wouldn't reveal themselves to anyone, even other casters. Such a society would be completely at the mercy of any higher-than-7th-level spell casters however.

[ryu]

Intimidation. The threat of death can go a long way towards preventing the practice of D&D magic, but it will never outright stop it. A few low level spell casters might still be practicing their art in secret, and probably wouldn't reveal themselves to anyone, even other casters. Such a society would be completely at the mercy of any higher-than-7th-level spell casters however.

And that's character level not spell level by the way.:smallamused:

[asnys]

Intelligence-draining poisons.

Keep them indefinitely unconscious.

Hostages.

[Der_DWSage]

For the majority, taking their spellbooks and spell component pouches work wonders. Then, shackles on the arms. Maaaaybe a heavy blow upside the head, depending on how cruel the jailers are, for a circumstance penalty to encourage concentration checks for the spells they could still cast.

That still leaves the obvious problems of Eschew Material + had an escape spell prepared for today + Silent Spell, but it seems like that'd handle those that weren't expecting to get thrown into a prison that day.

[Grinner]

That still leaves the obvious problems of Eschew Material + had an escape spell prepared for today + Silent Spell, but it seems like that'd handle those that weren't expecting to get thrown into a prison that day.

On the other hand, that sort of spell is exactly the sort of spell a practitioner living in a repressive society would memorize.

Edit: I'm going to second drugs.

[fishyfishyfishy]

And that's character level not spell level by the way.:smallamused:

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.

[Ravens_cry]

Keep them unconscious and fed constant doses of nauseating substances, encased in something like an iron maiden but without spikes. OK, maybe a couple spikes in non lethal but painful places.

[demigodus]

How would ovl 4 spells put such a society at your complete mercy?

They could still have Tome of Battle classed guards

[Carth]

Plenty of mental ability score poisons to go around (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison). The works for casters that you've already caught, but as mentioned, for world building purposes, any spellcasters you do have running around would probably go to the trouble of actually using feats like spell mastery and eschew materials in this world.

[Galvin]

Once a spellcaster gets to a certain level, it is simply implausible to even think of imprisoning them. If it was a poorer society, I doubt they could afford intelligence poisons, or at least enough of it to keep them unconscious forever. I'd make some sort of iron gauntlet that forced there hands into a fist, and a gag. Clean the cells regularly so they can't get their hands on any little bit of junk they could use as a spell component.

But again, at a certain level, a wizard will have contingencies for his contingencies, and it would be impossible to capture him.

[Grollub]

you forgot, blinding, and cutting out their tongues

[fishyfishyfishy]

How would ovl 4 spells put such a society at your complete mercy?

They could still have Tome of Battle classed guards

Short Answer: Subtlety. Lesser Planar Bind/Ally a Succubus and go from there. Who cares what class the guards are? You aren't going to fight them, you're going to become their new leader.

You don't get a long answer. It would derail the thread too much.

[ryu]

How would ovl 4 spells put such a society at your complete mercy?

They could still have Tome of Battle classed guards

If the mere existence of fabricate and the hilarious things it can and will do to a kingdom of mundanes doesn't scare you I don't know what will.

[Isamu Dyson]

and cutting out their tongues

Ow...:smalleek:.

[Jack_Simth]

Short Answer: Subtlety. Lesser Planar Bind/Ally a Succubus and go from there. Who cares what class the guards are? You aren't going to fight them, you're going to become their new leader.

You don't get a long answer. It would derail the thread too much.

If the mere existence of fabricate and the hilarious things it can and will do to a kingdom of mundanes doesn't scare you I don't know what will.
Note: Both of those are 5th level spells, and the context is a 7th level Wizard.

But yes, your basic Fly + Fireball combination will do some massive damage to a town from far enough a way that hiding while casting is feasible despite no ranks and a negative dexterity modifier.

[ryu]

Ow...:smalleek:.

And if the mage is high enough level that still won't have any long term effect. Crafted contingent clerical mojo to grow the tongue back at mental command. Also teleportation, and freedom of movement contingencies.

Edit: Your wizards don't have ninths at first level? I just wanted seven for the extra slots.

[Isamu Dyson]

And if the mage is high enough level that still won't have any long term effect. Crafted contingent clerical mojo to grow the tongue back at mental command. Also teleportation, and freedom of movement contingencies.

At which spell/caster level does the Silent Still Feat become problematic?

[Ravens_cry]

How would ovl 4 spells put such a society at your complete mercy?

They could still have Tome of Battle classed guards
Charm person would be one. Hey, suddenly the king is your friend! Sure, they won't do something stupid like give you their throne, but if you can't find a way parlay friendship with powerful people into fame and fortune, you aren't even trying.

[ryu]

At which spell/caster level does the Silent Still Feat become problematic?

In this world? Level one with cheese, Mid teens without it.

[asnys]

you forgot, blinding, and cutting out their tongues

If you're bothering to keep him alive, rather than just killing him straight off, you presumably want him for something. That suggests a reversible option is probably best.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Whats wrong with breaking fingers, binding hands and gagging? Crime and Punishment was not nice in the medieval era. They really did used to cut off fingers or even hands for stealing. So smashing your hands with a hammer for criminal use of magic doesn't seem out of the question.

Putting out theirs eyes could also work fairly well. If they're actually removed instead of damaged remove blindness won't help.


If you're bothering to keep him alive, rather than just killing him straight off, you presumably want him for something. That suggests a reversible option is probably best.

If you saw an 8th level wizard hobbling down the street begging for alms because he was stripped of all his possessions and had his eyes plucked out. That might send a message not to break the law. Cutting of limbs and removing eyes was a punishment for thousands of years in Real Life.


And if the mage is high enough level that still won't have any long term effect. Crafted contingent clerical mojo to grow the tongue back at mental command. Also teleportation, and freedom of movement contingencies.
If he's that high enough level then he wouldn't have been caught to begin with. If Crafted contingent clerical mojo is available then your probably not in a low-magic society. In which case your simply Geased to guard the prison for two decades.


Charm person would be one. Hey, suddenly the king is your friend! Sure, they won't do something stupid like give you their throne, but if you can't find a way parlay friendship with powerful people into fame and fortune, you aren't even trying.

Which is why the King never meets directly with random dudes.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Note: Both of those are 5th level spells, and the context is a 7th level Wizard.


You are correct about Lesser Planar Binding, I often forget that because Lesser Planar Ally is 4th. I specified "spell caster" so as to include the cleric. I don't see why the Evil Deity of an Evil Cleric would have a problem sending a Succubus to serve you in your conquest.

[ryu]

You are correct about Lesser Planar Binding, I often forget that because Lesser Planar Ally is 4th. I specified "spell caster" so as to include the cleric. I don't see why the Evil Deity of an Evil Cleric would have a problem sending a Succubus to serve you in your conquest.

And as specified in an above post I typically use accelerated spell level shenanigans. I just wanted seventh for the staying power the extra slots provide.

[awa]

i get by fine on 6-7 hours of sleep every night a wizard needs a solid 8 hours of rest to regain spells. Any interruptions adds an additional 1 hour rest requirement. Thus don't let them get a good nights sleep let them nap during the day so long as no nap is a hour in length and they will be rested enough for it not to be torture but not enough to cast spells.

clerics are even easier find out the only time during the day they can renew spells and scheduled that to be under heavy supervision.

[Ravens_cry]

Which is why the King never meets directly with random dudes.
Oh, please, you can be more subtle than that. First you make a minor Lord or Lady your friend, perhaps even marrying them for extra clout, and work up. Eventually, you meet the King as Lord or Lady Not-a-spellcaster and, bam, King Dude is your friend.

[Red Fel]

Consider why the society is low-magic. Especially if you have Tier 1-2 casters around, there must be a reason why that society is low-magic and continues to exist. Having anti-magic sentiments won't cut it, since any sufficiently powerful caster could sweep in there and bend the entire ruling government over one knee.

Perhaps the society is low-magic because their chief export is a locally-mined stone known for generating antimagic fields. Perhaps, due to the frequency of this stone in the area, magic simply doesn't function easily, discouraging its study. Perhaps they construct each of their jail cells with one of these stones embedded in the center of the floor, to ensure that no magic will function within the cell.

Of course, "object generating an antimagic field" is an easy solution. Almost a cop-out really. But it bears mention.

I would suggest using classic Geas/Quest torture, but since the society is low-magic, you can't very well imprison a magic-user with magic.

[Ravens_cry]

Consider why the society is low-magic. Especially if you have Tier 1-2 casters around, there must be a reason why that society is low-magic and continues to exist. Having anti-magic sentiments won't cut it, since any sufficiently powerful caster could sweep in there and bend the entire ruling government over one knee.


Maybe it's like E6, you can't get higher level than a certain level, the spells simply don't exist except, perhaps, as spell-like abilities of monsters that mortal magic simply can not replicate.

[ryu]

Consider why the society is low-magic. Especially if you have Tier 1-2 casters around, there must be a reason why that society is low-magic and continues to exist. Having anti-magic sentiments won't cut it, since any sufficiently powerful caster could sweep in there and bend the entire ruling government over one knee.

Perhaps the society is low-magic because their chief export is a locally-mined stone known for generating antimagic fields. Perhaps, due to the frequency of this stone in the area, magic simply doesn't function easily, discouraging its study. Perhaps they construct each of their jail cells with one of these stones embedded in the center of the floor, to ensure that no magic will function within the cell.

Of course, "object generating an antimagic field" is an easy solution. Almost a cop-out really. But it bears mention.

I would suggest using classic Geas/Quest torture, but since the society is low-magic, you can't very well imprison a magic-user with magic.

Also as we demonstrated a while back antimagic fields don't prevent all magic. Instantaneous conjurations like teleport still work. That was actually a fair part of my power while surviving as a wizard in a world where all non-living objects generated antimagic fields until I could break all of the rules at level seventeen or so.

[mabriss lethe]

The society could be populated by mostly Karsites. It would explain the low magic setting as well as grant them some ability to cause casters grief.

As an aside, spellthieves can be employed somewhat effective guards at low - mid levels. They have very little magic of their own, but can strip away the magics and protections of prisoners.

[Captnq]

Holy crap.

You guys are TOTALLY over thinking this.

Sonic Snap. 0 level cantrip. Never miss. No saving throw to avoid damage. SR: yes. always does 1 point of damage.

Fell Drain +2 level adjustment Metamagic.
Drains 1 level away from target. Each time the target loses a level, he also forgets his highest cast spell. The level drain only lasts like, 3 hours. Ping him down to 1st level. When it wears off, repeat. Put in zone of truth 2nd level spell. Ask him:
Do you have any spells memorized?
If the answer is yes, PING AGAIN.
If the answer is finally no, ask:
Do you have any ability to memorize more spells?
If the answer is no, throw him in jail with his hand and feet shackled to the wall.
If yes, find out how.

Now, a spontanous caster, you might just need to cut off his hands, but the clerics and wizards aren't that hard to take care of, and with only two 2nd level spells.

[ryu]

Holy crap.

You guys are TOTALLY over thinking this.

Sonic Snap. 0 level cantrip. Never miss. No saving throw to avoid damage. SR: yes. always does 1 point of damage.

Fell Drain +2 level adjustment Metamagic.
Drains 1 level away from target. Each time the target loses a level, he also forgets his highest cast spell. The level drain only lasts like, 3 hours. Ping him down to 1st level. When it wears off, repeat. Put in zone of truth 2nd level spell. Ask him:
Do you have any spells memorized?
If the answer is yes, PING AGAIN.
If the answer is finally no, ask:
Do you have any ability to memorize more spells?
If the answer is no, throw him in jail with his hand and feet shackled to the wall.
If yes, find out how.

Now, a spontanous caster, you might just need to cut off his hands, but the clerics and wizards aren't that hard to take care of, and with only two 2nd level spells.

Immunity to energy draining effects is cheap at even moderate levels. Also contingencies. You'll have to do better than that to take on a real high level caster.

[ArqArturo]

Recite Vogon Poetry.

[Isamu Dyson]

How do you create an area of low sanctity that would impede divine spellcasters?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Also as we demonstrated a while back antimagic fields don't prevent all magic. Instantaneous conjurations like teleport still work. That was actually a fair part of my power while surviving as a wizard in a world where all non-living objects generated antimagic fields until I could break all of the rules at level seventeen or so.

Any spell cast within an antimagic field is immediately suppressed, the exemption for instant conjurations "because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect." is referring to spells cast BEFORE the antimagic field is in place are unaffected such as wall of stone. Not any spells cast within the field as they are in effect at some point.
Show me the line that says the "casting" of instantaneous conjuration spells are affected.


Maybe it's like E6, you can't get higher level than a certain level, the spells simply don't exist except, perhaps, as spell-like abilities of monsters that mortal magic simply can not replicate. Which makes imprisoning them a lot more straight forward.

No one is talking about high level casters for a high level caster you hire adventures to either kill him or at least make screwing around in the magical sticks not worth his effort. A low magic area should hold no interest to a high level caster

[ryu]

Any spell cast within an antimagic field is immediately suppressed, the exemption for instant conjurations "because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect." is referring to spells cast BEFORE the antimagic field is in place are unaffected such as wall of stone. Not any spells cast within the field as they are in effect at some point.

Which makes imprisoning them a lot more straight forward.

The RAW on that interpretation is a bit fuzzy at best. The RAI is perfectly clear, but the language isn't nearly as specific as it should be.

[Der_DWSage]

Holy crap.

You guys are TOTALLY over thinking this.

Sonic Snap. 0 level cantrip. Never miss. No saving throw to avoid damage. SR: yes. always does 1 point of damage.

Fell Drain +2 level adjustment Metamagic.
Drains 1 level away from target. Each time the target loses a level, he also forgets his highest cast spell. The level drain only lasts like, 3 hours. Ping him down to 1st level. When it wears off, repeat. Put in zone of truth 2nd level spell. Ask him:
Do you have any spells memorized?
If the answer is yes, PING AGAIN.
If the answer is finally no, ask:
Do you have any ability to memorize more spells?
If the answer is no, throw him in jail with his hand and feet shackled to the wall.
If yes, find out how.

Now, a spontanous caster, you might just need to cut off his hands, but the clerics and wizards aren't that hard to take care of, and with only two 2nd level spells.

There's still some problems with this, though.

1)If this is a 1st level person you're interrogating, they die. Negative levels do that. And that was one of the things the OP was wanting to avoid. It's also difficult to tell when an uncooperative caster is 'pinged' down to 1st level, especially if they have illusions covering their behinds.
2)It depends on how 'low magic' this is. If it's low enough that they can't rely on a 3rd level spellcaster in every jail (Or indeed, even in special 'mage jails') then this stops being feasible.
3)Zone of Truth has a Will save attached to it. The save that every caster is likely to make.


In truth, none of these suggestions are that likely to hold a mage that deals with being thrown in jails often. Even without Ryu's vaunted cheese, Knock gets them out of their bindings while Invisibility keeps them from being found until they're in the clear, if you're going with a Lawful Good society that wants to rehabilitate rather than maim.

You could start cutting out tongues and cutting off fingers, but that gets to the slippery slope of things were mages start being justified in their paranoia. And even then, Still/Silent spell is on the table, if they can't find someone to Regenerate their lost limbs. All of this is mitigation, not a fullproof way of stopping mages without special antimagic items.

[asnys]

Immunity to energy draining effects is cheap at even moderate levels. Also contingencies. You'll have to do better than that to take on a real high level caster.

I don't think it's practical to take on a real high-level caster except with another real high-level caster, which rather violates the terms of the OP.

What I think you could do is drastically reduce the odds of more high-level casters appearing. Most Wizard-1's aren't going to be super-optimized, with four flaws and six obscure feats that synergize to give them instantaneous auto-escape from everything. Most Wizard-1's aren't even going to have more than 13 Intelligence and may not even have any combat spells.

So most Wizard-1's won't escape. And of the ones who do escape, most will retire somewhere quietly and pretend to be a cobbler and never gain any XP. Of the ones who do go adventuring, most will die before they hit mid-levels. And of those who do make it to mid-levels, some - perhaps most - won't bother trying to take on the society that oppressed them. So, net it out, relatively few people will make it from apprentice wizard to threat-to-the-state. And of the ones who do, most will get unlucky at some point along the way and get killed in the process of trying to take revenge.

It won't work forever. Somebody with a big enough grudge will eventually survive long enough to tear the whole structure down - a setup like this has a half-life. But it could work for a while, and be a fun premise for a setting.

[ryu]

I don't think it's practical to take on a real high-level caster except with another real high-level caster, which rather violates the terms of the OP.

What I think you could do is drastically reduce the odds of more high-level casters appearing. Most Wizard-1's aren't going to be super-optimized, with four flaws and six obscure feats that synergize to give them instantaneous auto-escape from everything. Most Wizard-1's aren't even going to have more than 13 Intelligence and may not even have any combat spells.

So most Wizard-1's won't escape. And of the ones who do escape, most will retire somewhere quietly and pretend to be a cobbler and never gain any XP. Of the ones who do go adventuring, most will die before they hit mid-levels. And of those who do make it to mid-levels, some - perhaps most - won't bother trying to take on the society that oppressed them. So, net it out, relatively few people will make it from apprentice wizard to threat-to-the-state. And of the ones who do, most will get unlucky at some point along the way and get killed in the process of trying to take revenge.

It won't work forever. Somebody with a big enough grudge will eventually survive long enough to tear the whole structure down - a setup like this has a half-life. But it could work for a while, and be a fun premise for a setting.

The one problem with this idea is that high level casters likely already exist, and how the hell are you going to bring THEM down? For anti caster sentiment to be a thing casters can't exactly have just happened five seconds ago.

[asnys]

The one problem with this idea is that high level casters likely already exist, and how the hell are you going to bring THEM down? For anti caster sentiment to be a thing casters can't exactly have just happened five seconds ago.

They killed each other off in a horrible Brothers' War, in which armies of constructs and spellfire devastated the countryside, culminating in the use of a terrible superweapon that altered the climate and destroyed civilization outside of a few small holdouts? With the few high-level spellcasters who survived disinterested in meddling in mundane affairs?

I always liked the backstory for the The Dark and Ice Age Magic: The Gathering sets.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The one problem with this idea is that high level casters likely already exist, and how the hell are you going to bring THEM down? For anti caster sentiment to be a thing casters can't exactly have just happened five seconds ago.

This isn't an anticaster sentiment, its how do you imprison criminals, strip a mundane class of its equipment throw them in stone cell with a solid door and there isn't much they can do to escape. If its a high level caster terrorizing the community you hire adventures to kill them thus kicking off an adventure module.



In truth, none of these suggestions are that likely to hold a mage that deals with being thrown in jails often. Even without Ryu's vaunted cheese, Knock gets them out of their bindings while Invisibility keeps them from being found until they're in the clear, if you're going.
A mage who deals with being thrown in jail often will likely be executed. Or they just serve their time if its a minor offense. If extreme measures are going to be taken then the caster either committed a severe crime or resisted arrest.

Locks can be solved by not having them, instead of prison doors use portcullis(which are exempt from knock). That iron mask that renders the mage blind.... its bolted on. Same for those shackles on your hands that prevent you from using somatic components. Guard dogs could actually help with invisibility.

[Ravens_cry]

Which makes imprisoning them a lot more straight forward.

No one is talking about high level casters for a high level caster you hire adventures to either kill him or at least make screwing around in the magical sticks not worth his effort. A low magic area should hold no interest to a high level caster
While I agree with most of this, I am not so sure about that. Being a big fish in a small pond has its advantages if you are the conquering type.
Lack of competition for one.

[Lord Vukodlak]

While I agree with most of this, I am not so sure about that. Being a big fish in a small pond has its advantages if you are the conquering type.
Lack of competition for one.

But what did you do to attain all that power? you didn't do it by being a big fish in a small pond. You did it by being a big fish in the ocean. If your looking to Lord it over some tiny low magic area that sounds like retirement not conquest. Which makes it more likely you'd become that really high level Inn keeper who could solve the town's problem in five minutes but you'd rather watch some green adventurers fumble at it for a week.

[ryu]

But what did you do to attain all that power? you didn't do it by being a big fish in a small pond. You did it by being a big fish in the ocean. If your looking to Lord it over some tiny low magic area that sounds like retirement not conquest. Which makes it more likely you'd become that really high level Inn keeper who could solve the town's problem in five minutes but you'd rather watch some green adventurers fumble at it for a week.

Are you joking? Cheap, easily taken over land? It's full of free test subjects, and easy labor without having to worry about competition. Free goodies are free goodies.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Are you joking? Cheap, easily taken over land? It's full of free test subjects, and easy labor without having to worry about competition. Free goodies are free goodies.

Test subjects yes, but the magical regents you need in order to make use of those test subjects no because the area is a low-magic society. So you either need to make frequent trips to resupply or have them shipped to you. Either way your competition will learn of your little lab and come looking...

Or you'll be torn to shreds by adventurers because if your the high level caster taking over the tiny town that's whats going to happen to you. Then you have issues if needing guards and those guards need support and then of course lab assistances whose life expectancy is only slightly longer then the test subjects and before you know it your nice little low-magic zone has been magically gentrified

[Ravens_cry]

But what did you do to attain all that power? you didn't do it by being a big fish in a small pond. You did it by being a big fish in the ocean. If your looking to Lord it over some tiny low magic area that sounds like retirement not conquest. Which makes it more likely you'd become that really high level Inn keeper who could solve the town's problem in five minutes but you'd rather watch some green adventurers fumble at it for a week.
Retirement? Perhaps. But a retirement of ultimate power over a cowering population who wishes not to offend their God Emperor by doing anything like disobeying?
Like I said, if you are the conquering type but don't have the wherewithal to really take on (and win that is; you could still mess things up pretty badly, as any high level caster is a one man WMD) against the ocean, sounds like fun.
If any busybodies from the high magic parts of the universe start thinking about interfering with your little patch of personal paradise, remind them you could be out being all villainous to their kith and kin back home, but you are perfectly content to stay here in this insignificant part of the world, and not interfere with them and theirs.
Provided, of course, they do likewise.
EDIT:

Test subjects yes, but the magical regents you need in order to make use of those test subjects no because the area is a low-magic society. So you either need to make frequent trips to resupply or have them shipped to you. Either way your competition will learn of your little lab and come looking...

That depends, is low magic a lack of knowledge and/or capability of the local population, or is it a physical limitation in that part of the world?
If it's the latter, even your regents are unlikely to work.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Retirement? Perhaps. But a retirement of ultimate power over a cowering population who wishes not to offend their God Emperor by doing anything like disobeying?
That isn't retirement, that's sending up a signal flare for adventures they won't care that you decided to scale back your villainy. Your old rivals might think your lying about the town being insignificant or you lost your edge and got weak.
Reminding them "I could be terrorizing hundreds of thousands instead of just thousands like I am now" isn't going to deter them. If your going to retire to lord over a small community might as well be worshiped. That way if adventures come sniffing around the townsfolk will honestly say how wonderful you are not knowing. Not knowing you spend your weekends as a super villain in the next kingdom over.



That depends, is low magic a lack of knowledge and/or capability of the local population, or is it a physical limitation in that part of the world?
If it's the latter, even your regents are unlikely to work.

If its a physical limitation in that part of the world then its would be a place high level caster would avoid.

So it would need to be a lack of capacity, if the magical regents aren't rare in that area then it will attract spell casters and soon it wouldn't be a low magic area.

[Ravens_cry]

That isn't retirement, that's sending up a signal flare for adventures they won't care that you decided to scale back your villainy. Your old rivals might think your lying about the town being insignificant or you lost your edge and got weak.
Reminding them "I could be terrorizing hundreds of thousands instead of just thousands like I am now" isn't going to deter them. If your going to retire to lord over a small community might as well be worshiped. That way if adventures come sniffing around the townsfolk will honestly say how wonderful you are not knowing. Not knowing you spend your weekends as a super villain in the next kingdom over.
Worshipped, feared. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
Any self-righteous adventurers you can show what a real high level spell caster is, no holds barred, and your true rivals will likely be as pragmatic as you, and happy you aren't tearing it up back in the Real Parts of the world, where stuff they actually care about is happening.

[Spore]

Isn't there some kind of circle magic, that can push the cast level up to where it has to be for permanent anti magic zones? You basically take a bunch of Lv 1 acolytes and a prison master wizard/cleric and cast that. Take the CL from the acolytes, pay a bit of gold and voila. Your magic prison is done.

That or promise the souls of the casters to your god and pray for a guardian that keeps them around. Depends on your low magic setting tho (why are you allowing spellcasters in there in the first place?).

[Erberor]

I think there is point to be made that it is likely impossible to create the perfect prison & punishment system for casters of any level. It just can't be done. I think this is aimed more at making a punishment/imprisonment system for low-mid (lvl 1 up to maybe lvl 10) level casters, and even then it can't be perfect.

Also, I don't think common npc casters have knowledge of many of the absurd tricks that can be pulled off by high level casters, especially if its a low magic society

With regard to Anti-magic field, I think the idea is to suppress all magic and prevent it from ever happening. The thought I have is that it would prevent magical effects from continuing or beginning, and instant conjurations still require magic to occur, and as such should be cancelled by the field. I'm not basing this off of the rules, but rather what I think is a logical interpretation of the desired effect of the spell.

[Maginomicon]

My main campaign is "sci-fi"...ish in that magic is shunned but psionics is glorified. For the purposes of world-building, two broad concepts keep spellcasters in check in my setting:

1. No matter what kind of spellcaster you are, if the entire populace of a planet except for you and your pure-blooded kin are genetically incapable of spellcasting, the latent resentment, jealousy, fear, and even hatred that comes from groupthink will work together over the generations to make spellcasters become an endangered species one way or another.

2. I have high-level tippyverse-like world-changing spells and powers require a new component for casting/manifesting them: a context-specific ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307549) that can't be modified by just anyone.

[fluke1993]

If you absolutely MUST imprison a spell caster:

Upon Defeat/Surrender...

1; Bind hands, blindfold and gag with a ring gag.

2; strip the subject naked, check all orifices for hidden objects. (I do mean all, it's certainly possible to hide a meta-magic rod in certain unpleasant places)

a: if possible check the subject with detect magic.

3; Induce vomiting (this is to prevent things like spellbooks being kept in stomachs.)

4; Use whatever means necessary to render subject unconscious.

5; If available, use whatever means necessary to reduce subjects mental stats below 10, reduce to less than 4 if possible.

6; Until proven otherwise the subject is to be treated as if capable of casting from all three stats at all times. Even if proven otherwise operate under this assumption if possible.

During holding...

1; Subject is to remain blindfolded, deafened and gagged at all times...

a: The gag and blindfold should be two pieces. The gag should be a ring gag with a removable center piece to keep the mouth from being accessed. The Blindfold should not be removable without removing the gag as well. (this is to prevent idiots removing the subjects blindfold so the subject can "see the face of their tormentors" or other such nonsense.

2; Subjects arms, hands, fingers and legs should remain completely immobilized at all times.

3; If possible, keep the subject suspended above the floor. If suspended subject should not be able to swing at all.

4; Cell should be maintained daily. Restraints should be maintained weekly.

5; Atleast four guards should be stationed inside the cell at all times. Such guards should trained in sign-language and should be deafened and muted at all times. (this is to prevent interaction between subject and guards.) A guards identities should be as obscured as possible and all guards must be fully shaved. Two guards should check the prisoners restraints every 30 minutes. At least one guards should be trained to administer emergency sedation, two would be preferable. At least one guard should be medically trained so as to check the subject for unintentional (by the captors) damage. The guards will be changed every hour.

a: Guards are required to report an loss of bodily fluid aside from sweat.

6; All guards will undergo a full cavity search before and after entering the cell (to prevent smuggling items in or out).

a: I possible guards should also be scanned with detect magic before entering and leaving the cell.

7; The cell should be constructed as follows...

a:The walls, roof and floor of the cell are to either be carved or constructed of two layers of solid stone. A sheet of lead is to be sandwiched between these two layers.

b: The only access should be a stone portcullis of similar construction weighing more than 200 pounds, more if possible.

c: The floor of the cell should be sloped towards the exit to make cleaning easier.

d: There should be no air holes larger than half a centimeter in diameter. If possible the only air holes should be the cracks in on the sides of the door.

e: There should be a single hole in the floor that leads to a guard station. Water should be able to flow freely to and from this station through the hole. This tube should be no more than 60 centimeters long and completely vertical. This hole should be plugged with a hollow glass sphere strong enough to withstand pressurization but fragile enough that it can be easily broken when pressurized. In case of emergency this sphere should be broken.

f: At the guard station there should be a monitoring system consisting of a tank (attached via nozzle to the emergency tube mentioned above) containing yellow colored water and blue colored corn syrup pressurized so that completely releasing the pressure would instantly cause a noticeable change in color. The setup should be such that breaking the glass sphere in the cell causes a depressurization of liquids and change the color of it. Needless to say make sure that the guard on duty can see the color change if this happens.

In addition to the above one of the following should be enforced based on what type of caster is most likely being restrained:

1; If the subject is to be held conscious...

a: The subjects mental ability scores should be kept below 4.

b: The subject should be denied more than one consecutive half hour of sleep.

c: This should be the preferred method for holding arcane and spontaneous casters as it prevents them from getting the necessary rest to refresh spells.

2; If the subject is to be held unconscious...

a: Unconsciousness should be induced in multiple ways.

b: Subject's mental ability scores should be kept below 2.

c: Extra attention is to be paid during solar dawn and dusk.

c: this is the preferred method for holding prepared divine casters as it prevents them from praying for spells at the appropriate time.

Caring for the subject...

1; If prestidigitation is available, it should be used daily to clean the subject. If it is not available, subject should be cleaned by more mundane means every three days. No more than a single part of the subjects restraints should be undone at any point during this process.

2; Since characters don't "excrete" in D&D you probably don't have to worry about that. If you do take a look at what hospitals do to take care of such things, I don't feel like going into detail.

3; Subject should be fed the bare minimum to keep healthy. Should be as close to liquid as possible and should be fed through the removable plug in the gag. Even better if you can set up a system to feed the subject without actually removing the gag plug.

In case of emergency...

1; Guard team inside the cell triggers the alarm by shattering the sphere in the center of the cell, causing the color in the tank to change.

2; Upon seeing the color of the water in the tank change, the team at the guard station immediately disconnects the alarm tank. After water has finished draining, these guards imediatly begin pumping inhaled poisons of mental ability damage and unconsciousness into the cell through said hole, knocking the subject and the inner cell guards out cold. These poisons MUST be different than anything used to keep the subjects ability scores low.

3; After enough has been pumped into the cell, the guards at the station will keep pumping small amounts of the poison in to keep the poison/air ratio up. Meanwhile the prison is mobilized to contain the breach.

4; After at least an hour has passed, the cell may be opened. Send at least four of the highest trained guards in to re-establish containment. These guards should be equipped so they can breath the toxins without significant danger of succumbing to it. (high fort saves enhanced by alchemical items. Magic if possible) More guards should be stationed outside of cell just in case.

5: If the compound comes under attack the cell should be gassed just in case.


The following is not part of the above instructions.

Yes I realize that this is excessive. It is intended to be because it has to be. A well built spell-caster only needs to get one third (possible lower) level spell off to escape any hope of recapture. This entire setup is designed to keep a spell caster from casting any spells at all in as many ways as possible. Again I realize that this is overkill for many of the casters that are commonly built but this is the best way I can see to prevent ANY caster from escaping. Keep in mind that the best way to prevent something from escaping is to kill it, trap the soul somehow and then use that soul to fuel the crafting of magical items.

A note on the liquid alarm device, I am no engineer and have only a very rudimentary knowledge of the forces involved in such a thing. Given the level which alchemy is at, the means necessary to make such a device do exist in the default D&D world, I am just not sure if the device would actually work as intended. If anyone has a better idea as to how to set up an alarm that works in a similar manner without all the hassle I am all ears. Keep in mind that is can not be reliant on sound in any way.

[Valwyn]

Asides from binding hands, breaking fingers and gagging mouths, what methods can be employed by low-magic/poorer societies to prevent criminal spellcasters from working their magic?

I think it might be relevant to explain what level and type of caster we're talking about and what kind of resources the town/city has. It's easier to keep a low level bard jailed than a high level wizard.


fluke1993

Seems to me like it works.

Wouldn't it make more sense to keep their mental scores at 2 if they're awake and 4 if they're knocked out?

Now you only have to worry about warlocks. Infinite powah! :smallbiggrin:

[Arbane]

Recite Vogon Poetry.

Please! We're still civilized here.

We'll stick to pre-emptive amputation. So much more merciful. We're sending a MESSAGE to those filthy spellcasters!

...Namely, that they'd better be ready to FIGHT TO THE DEATH if anyone comes after them, as Hell will seem like a nice vacation compared to what awaits them in jail.

[fluke1993]

The reason why I set the minimum mental stats for unconsciousness lower is so that if they somehow do regain consciousness they can be rendered unconscious quicker. I kept it higher in the conscious example so that you can do things like interrogate the prisoner easier. If you just want to keep them conscious you could probably keep their scores lower.

[AlltheBooks]

Most of what's been said. I hope someone mentioned dressing them in armour, normal or otherwise in addition to the common precautions.

Doesn't matter beyond mid level though.

[Elderand]

I do believe the single best way is to find a way to lower ability scores.
Most everything else can be bypassed if the spellcaster plan on it. Even more easily for psionic character.

Altough I'm sure it's possible to make a character that wouldn't be stoppable at all, short of death.

Probably something along the line of necropolitan eidetic wizard/tainted scholar with silent and still spell.