[D&D 3.5] Poison User Questions

[Kevingway]

All my searching through the handbook and guides is in vain, so I'd like to ask a few questions here for a more direct response.

1. When poisoning ammunition/a ranged weapon, how many uses of the poison do you get? The handbook hinted toward infinite, but in the same breath hinted toward the standard one, before you have to repoison it (so fire one shot, poison, fire another shot). Which is it?

2a. When using the Minor Creation spell, are people completely ignoring Craft (poisonmaking) and Creating the poison, or are they creating the poison's raw materials and then crafting it out of that? Can you do both?

2b. When crafted from Minor Created raw materials, does the poison only last the duration of the summoned materials? (So at level one, would your poison crafted from Minor Created materials last one hour, or would it be permanent because it isn't technically the same item?)

2c. What else can be said about the benefits/limitations of Minor Creation for poisonmaking? It seems very unclear to be how many raw materials I am allowed to make (I've looked at measurement threads, but I couldn't tell if that was for raw materials or the poison itself, thus the spurring of these questions).

3. When would you make Craft (poisonmaking) checks? I remember reading that you would make these checks at the end of each week to determine how much poison you get for the next week, but I'm certain there are other systems for making checks. How does all of this work?

I hate to ask such inexperienced questions as these; the poison system seems so terribly simple, but straightforward answers seem to be given nowhere.

Thanks to anyone who can help me out!

[Kennisiou]

All my searching through the handbook and guides is in vain, so I'd like to ask a few questions here for a more direct response.

1. When poisoning ammunition/a ranged weapon, how many uses of the poison do you get? The handbook hinted toward infinite, but in the same breath hinted toward the standard one, before you have to repoison it (so fire one shot, poison, fire another shot). Which is it?

If you're applying poison before every shot, you have to actually apply it. Weapons can be poisoned ahead of time and remain poisoned. In the same way that an assassin can carry four daggers, each poisoned, an archer can poison as many arrows as they can carry and keep them stored. This is why ranged weapons/ammunition are generally preferred for poison: you can prepare ahead of time fairly easily.


2a. When using the Minor Creation spell, are people completely ignoring Craft (poisonmaking) and Creating the poison, or are they creating the poison's raw materials and then crafting it out of that? Can you do both?

Per the spell, the materials are just 0 gp of plant matter (like cut some grass or something) in the same volume (not mass, volume) as the thing you're trying to create. For the "complex" creations you have to succeed in a craft check DC = craft DC of the creation to make it. Which means you cannot ignore craft (poisonmaking) and expect to create poisons effectively with the spell (unless you're dealing with low DC poisons and have high int).


2b. When crafted from Minor Created raw materials, does the poison only last the duration of the summoned materials? (So at level one, would your poison crafted from Minor Created materials last one hour, or would it be permanent because it isn't technically the same item?)

The materials are not summoned. You gather them yourself. The poison is permanent, as you have permanently shaped the materials into a poison.


2c. What else can be said about the benefits/limitations of Minor Creation for poisonmaking? It seems very unclear to be how many raw materials I am allowed to make (I've looked at measurement threads, but I couldn't tell if that was for raw materials or the poison itself, thus the spurring of these questions).

Minor Creation (especially psionic minor creation) is great for making poisons. You can make 3k doses of any plant-based poison for just the cost of the spell. Really handy. Considering there's a few very potent plant-based poisons out there, it's actually a strategy that scales nicely until the end of the game, just remember that poison immune enemies will shut you down and to have a back-up.


3. When would you make Craft (poisonmaking) checks? I remember reading that you would make these checks at the end of each week to determine how much poison you get for the next week, but I'm certain there are other systems for making checks. How does all of this work?

I hate to ask such inexperienced questions as these; the poison system seems so terribly simple, but straightforward answers seem to be given nowhere.

Thanks to anyone who can help me out!

You make Craft (poisonmaking) checks any time you make poisons, either from materials you have gathered yourself or from minor creationing them. As for the particular rules, if you're going to just minor creation don't worry too heavily about the crafting rules. Otherwise, making poisons via the craft skill follows all of the standard rules for making anything else with the craft skill except that progress is measured in gp cost of the poison rather than sp cost. This includes meaning you have to either gather exotic materials yourself or be in a place that you could reasonably find them in order to make some of the more complicated poisons without magical aid (similar to how you can't just make a starmetal sword).

[holywhippet]

I think each arrow would need to be poisoned separately and you'd require one dose of the poison for each arrow. You could poison several arrows in advance ie. you don't have to poison each arrow just before shooting.

The material component for that spell is a small sample of the thing you are trying to reproduce. The craft check is in case you were making something complex like a wooden statue. To make poison I suspect you'd need to duplicate plant that the poison is derived from. From there it would be using the crafting rules (complete adventurer, page 97) to make the poison. I suspect if you could craft and use the poison before the spell expires the poison effects would remain. That assumes you can craft it quickly enough.

The rules are kind of vague about using that spell to make poison though. I'd be tempted to say it can't be done.

[Kevingway]

Thanks a lot!

I just have one more question to add on: even though using Minor Creation, will I be paying 1/6 the cost of the poison, or will the poison crafting essentially be free?

Edit: Let's assume it's Psionic Minor Creation

[Kennisiou]

Thanks a lot!

I just have one more question to add on: even though using Minor Creation, will I be paying 1/6 the cost of the poison, or will the poison crafting essentially be free?

Edit: Let's assume it's Psionic Minor Creation

Crafting is essentially free. It's generally just the cost of the spell/power. As written, it doesn't have to be the exact material, so you don't have to go and find the plant the poison is made from, just any plant will do. That said, poisons are complicated so you do have to craft them with craft (poisonmaking). Some DMs may impose stricter regulations, but they are not totally RAW. Be sure to consult with your DM to see what his reading of crafting poisons with the spell/power is, but generally it should be as I said. If he rules you need the specific plant for the poison then it can get costly to make some poisons, although a profession (gardener) or (herbalist) or something like that check could possibly be used to rear the plants so that you only need to buy a few seeds before you have a self-sustaining poison plant farm. There's actually no real rules for the farming/growing of crops via skills in D&D, most DMs just rule it to either be profession or survival. The biggest resource lost if you wind up having to go the second route isn't cost, it's time. You'll have to wait for the plants to grow or for you to be in a place to buy them, which isn't always easy.

[mabriss lethe]

One of the reasons why minor psionic creation is preferred. You don't have to provide a sample, you just will your materials into existence.

[Captnq]

All my searching through the handbook and guides is in vain, so I'd like to ask a few questions here for a more direct response.


Well, did you check out the Weapon Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9053.msg183871#msg183871)? Because poison is something you put on weapons, so if it has ANYTHING to do with weapons, it's in there.



1. When poisoning ammunition/a ranged weapon, how many uses of the poison do you get? The handbook hinted toward infinite, but in the same breath hinted toward the standard one, before you have to repoison it (so fire one shot, poison, fire another shot). Which is it?


One use a dose, period. no exceptions. Except on a Toxic (WSA +1 Bonus) weapon, then you can use it twice. I also suggest Assassination (WSA +1 Bonus) both awesome Poison based WSAs.



2a. When using the Minor Creation spell, are people completely ignoring Craft (poisonmaking) and Creating the poison, or are they creating the poison's raw materials and then crafting it out of that? Can you do both?


Ask your DM. It's a judgement call. I say only plant based poisons and you need a craft roll. I'd let it go with only a single success



2b. When crafted from Minor Created raw materials, does the poison only last the duration of the summoned materials? (So at level one, would your poison crafted from Minor Created materials last one hour, or would it be permanent because it isn't technically the same item?)


Minimum caster level is 7. So 7 hours minimum. Yes, it vanishes. Also, you need a sample of what you are going to make, don't forget that part. Read the material Components.



2c. What else can be said about the benefits/limitations of Minor Creation for poisonmaking? It seems very unclear to be how many raw materials I am allowed to make (I've looked at measurement threads, but I couldn't tell if that was for raw materials or the poison itself, thus the spurring of these questions).


Waste of a 4th level spell? Seriously. I could cast icicle, explosive runes, fang trap, ghoul trap, blast glyph. They last forever until discharged and most at a lower level. I suppose if you really needed to make some of that funky smoke poison from the snake men... but you still need a sample to begin with. The best poisons come from animals, you know.

By the rules, your spell makes more then enough raw materials, so the limit would be your successes on the craft check. Since the craft DC is bound to be high, I doubt you'll even make one dose before the spell ends. So ask your DM. The rules on the spell are vague.



3. When would you make Craft (poisonmaking) checks? I remember reading that you would make these checks at the end of each week to determine how much poison you get for the next week, but I'm certain there are other systems for making checks. How does all of this work?


Just read my poison guide in the Weapon Handbook. It's the file called Poison. Search for "Craft DC". Check down to Amount.

Amount: To figure out how much poison you are able to create in a week, make a Craft (poisonmaking) check at the end of the week. If the check is successful, multiply the check result by the DC for the check. That result is how many gp worth of poison you created that week. When your total gp created equals or exceeds the market price of one dose of the poison, that dose is finished. (You may sometimes be able to create more than one dose in a week, depending on your check result and the market price of the poison.) If you fail the check by 4 or less, you make no progress that week. If you fail the check by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to buy them again.

That's standard poison making rules. That's RAW. Anything else is House.



I hate to ask such inexperienced questions as these; the poison system seems so terribly simple, but straightforward answers seem to be given nowhere.
Thanks to anyone who can help me out!

I think you will find my Poison Sub-Handbook to my Weapon Handbook to be very simple, direct, well laid out, researched and complete. I literally checked every simple offical WotC 3.0/3.5 book for the word "POISON" and read every entry that popped up. (I've got a weird brain.) So if it's a poison, about a poison, a rule about poison, or just poisonous, it's in there.

Oh, if anyone knows the price of Forest Giant Poison from Monster Manuel II Page 111,


Poison (Ex): Forest giants coat their arrows with poison
(Fortitude save DC 22). The initial and secondary damage is
the same (unconsciousness for 4d4 rounds).


I'd be ever so grateful. It's the last poison to add to my handbook, but I can't find a price ANYWHERE and I can't add it without a price. I mean, the drow poison has a price, both kinds. THIS sleep poison is off the chain. But it's apparently an extraordinary ability, as far as I can tell. They just... spit on the arrows or something.

[holywhippet]

One of the reasons why minor psionic creation is preferred. You don't have to provide a sample, you just will your materials into existence.

The spell description in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm says it's the same as the magical version though except where noted as being different.

[Pickford]

Kevingway:

All my searching through the handbook and guides is in vain, so I'd like to ask a few questions here for a more direct response.

1. When poisoning ammunition/a ranged weapon, how many uses of the poison do you get? The handbook hinted toward infinite, but in the same breath hinted toward the standard one, before you have to repoison it (so fire one shot, poison, fire another shot). Which is it?

2a. When using the Minor Creation spell, are people completely ignoring Craft (poisonmaking) and Creating the poison, or are they creating the poison's raw materials and then crafting it out of that? Can you do both?

2b. When crafted from Minor Created raw materials, does the poison only last the duration of the summoned materials? (So at level one, would your poison crafted from Minor Created materials last one hour, or would it be permanent because it isn't technically the same item?)

2c. What else can be said about the benefits/limitations of Minor Creation for poisonmaking? It seems very unclear to be how many raw materials I am allowed to make (I've looked at measurement threads, but I couldn't tell if that was for raw materials or the poison itself, thus the spurring of these questions).

3. When would you make Craft (poisonmaking) checks? I remember reading that you would make these checks at the end of each week to determine how much poison you get for the next week, but I'm certain there are other systems for making checks. How does all of this work?

I hate to ask such inexperienced questions as these; the poison system seems so terribly simple, but straightforward answers seem to be given nowhere.

Thanks to anyone who can help me out!

1. AFB, check DMG.

2a. You have to craft poisons normally to refine them into a usable format, so the check would be required.

2b. The duration of the spell. Also, bear in mind minor creation can only create vegetation based poisons....so nothing from an animal/undead/mineral.

3. Craft (poisonmaking) is the same as any craft ability, you can make the checks weekly or daily (though if daily it's at a slightly slower rate), until the total of the check formula equals the value of the item being crafted.

I'd have to refer you to the PHB for more detail on how crafting works, it's quite explicit in its detail.

[thethird]

relevant to your interests (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=2g8bp2552eo19ofi2b444nael5&topic=2714.0)

[Scotsequences]

Complete Adventurer 3.5, Page 98, has all the DCs for crafting the poisons in the DMG, and expanded skill rules for Craft (Poisonmaking), FWIW. [Edit: Added page number]

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy