Pounce/Rake

[kirerellim]

Ok, I've been trying to figure this out but to no avail. According to the dire tiger stats, if the tiger charges it can make a full attack, including to rake attacks. But according to rake, thats only used in grappling. Is it saying that if the tiger charges, then it gets to add the rake attacks anyways?

[ddude987]

Generally how rake attacks work is that if both claw attacks hit then you can attack with a rake. A tiger's rake is also used as its attack in a grapple, sort of like a great octupus doing constricting damage when grappling.

[kirerellim]

O.o It never mentioned that about rake. Bah! Where does it say these things?

[Benthesquid]

Ok, I've been trying to figure this out but to no avail. According to the dire tiger stats, if the tiger charges it can make a full attack, including to rake attacks. But according to rake, thats only used in grappling. Is it saying that if the tiger charges, then it gets to add the rake attacks anyways?

Generally speaking, rake only functions while grappling, but specific trumps general, so yes, the Dire Tiger gets to use its rake attacks on a charge. Odd way to do it, but there you are.

[Benthesquid]

Generally how rake attacks work is that if both claw attacks hit then you can attack with a rake. A tiger's rake is also used as its attack in a grapple, sort of like a great octupus doing constricting damage when grappling.

You're thinking of the similarly named but separate Rend.

[Harrow]

Things with Pounce and Rake generally are able to start a Grapple as a free action if some specified attack of theirs hits. In this case, if a Dire Tiger hits with its Bite attack, it gets to roll a Grapple check. If the Dire Tiger successfully Grapples you, it can then Rake.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The Pounce/Rake thing was finally made very clear in the rules compendium.

If a pouncing creature successfully uses it's attacks to start a grapple it may also make its rake attacks.

So a dire tiger would charge and make a full attack consisting of 2 claws and a bite attack. It has improved grab so if it hits with its bite attack it may also initiate a grapple. If it successfully initiates a grapple it may then make 2 rake attacks. All in one turn.

Edit: so pretty much what harrow said, except I think I said it a little more clearly.

[kirerellim]

Oooohhhhh ok, got it thank you!

[Urpriest]

The Pounce/Rake thing was finally made very clear in the rules compendium.

If a pouncing creature successfully uses it's attacks to start a grapple it may also make its rake attacks.

So a dire tiger would charge and make a full attack consisting of 2 claws and a bite attack. It has improved grab so if it hits with its bite attack it may also initiate a grapple. If it successfully initiates a grapple it may then make 2 rake attacks. All in one turn.

Edit: so pretty much what harrow said, except I think I said it a little more clearly.

Interesting. I hadn't seen the Rules Compendium clarification. That clears things up a great deal actually.

[Zombulian]

I had always assumed that was how it worked because it made sense, but geez it was so confusing.

[kirerellim]

Hmm.. ok, another question I don't see being answered anywhere else lol can pounce be used with flight?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Short answers: Yes

[RedWarlock]

Wait, what? I've got my understanding totally differently.

One of my PCs has a tiger AC.

If the tiger charges, it gets to make a claw/claw/bite/rake/rake. This is independent of any grappling.

If the tiger makes a full attack, it gets to make a claw/claw/bite, and if one of those attacks connects, it can initiate a grapple, and if that succeeds, it can then make one rake.

Two distinct situations that separately make use of the 'rake' special attack.

I'm gonna go check my RC, but AFAIK what I have above is still valid. Is this wrong?

[NeoPhoenix0]

The rules compendium has the authority to overrule anything published before it was. So it's definition of rake and pounce replace the one in the back of the monster manual and the ones right in the monster entries in that book.

Of course some information from the entries is still relevant, like the dire tiger's number of rakes and rake damage.

Take a look at the entries in the RC and tell us what you think then, OK.

Personally, I don't think you have it right based on what I read in the RC.

[Brookshw]

The RC isn't really over ruling anything, I believe this was clearly spelled out in 3.0 but poorly ported, but yes, successful grapple triggers rake. The earlier example if 5 attacks (2 rakes) plus additional rake for grapple I believe is misapplied.

[jaydubs]

Without rules compendium, I'd argue a dire tiger can claw/claw/bite/rake/rake without a grapple check. With the rules compendium, it looks like you have to succeed a grapple check to make those rake attacks.

The more troublesome bit is that dire tigers rely on improved grab to establish a grapple during a pounce. And improved grab only works on creatures at least 1 size smaller, unless otherwise noted.

So a dire tiger, being large, can only get those rake attacks during a pounce against medium and smaller creatures.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Without rules compendium, I'd argue a dire tiger can claw/claw/bite/rake/rake without a grapple check. With the rules compendium, it looks like you have to succeed a grapple check to make those rake attacks.

The more troublesome bit is that dire tigers rely on improved grab to establish a grapple during a pounce. And improved grab only works on creatures at least 1 size smaller, unless otherwise noted.

So a dire tiger, being large, can only get those rake attacks during a pounce against medium and smaller creatures.

Oh wow, I totally missed that bit. It's even in the same area. Good thing this doesn't become relevant for my current character until tomorrow.

[Chronos]

I don't have the Rules Compendium and so can't double-check, but if that's really what the Rules Compendium says, then it's a change in the rules, not a clarification. Being able to use rakes on a pounce is a property of Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce), not of Improved Grab.

Which always made sense to me. The creature can't use its rakes during a normal full attack, because it's standing on its hind limbs. When it pounces, though, it's jumping onto its target, and landing on two of its five pointy bits.

[Urpriest]

I don't have the Rules Compendium and so can't double-check, but if that's really what the Rules Compendium says, then it's a change in the rules, not a clarification. Being able to use rakes on a pounce is a property of Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce), not of Improved Grab.

Which always made sense to me. The creature can't use its rakes during a normal full attack, because it's standing on its hind limbs. When it pounces, though, it's jumping onto its target, and landing on two of its five pointy bits.

That's how I always interpreted it too, but I can understand if the point was that Pounce didn't override the "must be in a grapple" part of Rake, but only the "must begin the turn grappling" part. That is something they could have clarified when they originally wrote the rules, but better addressing it in the Rules Compendium than never.

[Chronos]

Sphinxes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) have Pounce and Rake without Improved Grab. Their descriptions still say that they can rake on a pounce, even though they wouldn't ever be starting a grapple with a pounce. Same for lammasus and griffons. And skum and sahaguins don't have Pounce, but can use their rakes whenever they're fighting while swimming, so there's another example of rakes being used outside of grappling.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I think that they can swap out one or more of their attacks for touch attacks to try to initiate a grapple the old fashioned way, taking attacks of opportunity in the process.