Department of Redundancy Department

[Angelalex242]

If someone has a race and a class that give them identical powers, should it be possible to sub those powers out for something the character can actually use?

Take Half Celestial Paladin.

They are immune to disease...twice.
They get 1 detect evil a day at 3rd level, but have it at will as Paladin.

Would it be fair to say double disease immunity leads to, say, poison immunity instead (they already have a bonus vs. poison...)? And maybe that one a day detect evil becomes detect chaos?

[Malroth]

Incarnated construct takes levels in Renagade Mastermaker and warforged Juggernaut

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, it can be done, but you're limited officially.

Let's take, for example, the Half-Celestial Paladin you mentioned. Using the Alternate Class Features (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ts8lkjo0vti07d44srb6pemkp1&topic=7908) thread on the old BG forums (here's (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8732.0) the version on the new BG forums), you can replace Divine Health and Detect Evil if you belong to the Lightbringers in the lands surrounding Castle Ravenloft, giving you bonuses against Undead (Detect Undead at-will and a bonus to attack and damage rolls against undead foes, the latter's damage bonus based on Paladin level). Alternatively, you can replace either Divine Health or Detect Evil with some substitution levels (Berronar Valkyrie, Eternal Order, Golden Lion, Ruby Rose, Vigilant Eye), or if your half-celestial ALSO happens to be a Dragonborn or Warforged (the latter is a bit difficult to justify, though, and the Warforged ALSO grants immunity to disease, so that's triple the redundancy).

However, as you can see, they can be replaced on a case-by-case basis. You can't justify replacing one immunity by other just like that; it'd be a houserule, since it's not entirely official.

[TuggyNE]

In keeping with the subject of the thread, I shall now repeat T.G. Oskar's point: that there are a number of partial ways to accomplish this, but no general solution besides homebrew.

In point of fact, it's probably impossible to make a truly general solution, since if, say, you're a construct paladin, what are you supposed to switch immunity to fear for? There's no obvious general guideline that would cover all cases, except for the uselessly vague "something else you might qualify for or that fits thematically but wouldn't otherwise get".

[Feytalist]

That half-celestial paladin is also amusing in that it gets two different smite evils, both named smite evil but with different mechanics.

Because that's not confusing at all.

[Spore]

That half-celestial paladin is also amusing in that it gets two different smite evils, both named smite evil but with different mechanics.

Because that's not confusing at all.

It's easy. The one's used for if you REALLY want to smite evil, the other is just for plain old evil smitin'.

[Red Fel]

As a rule, I find T.G. Oskar's approach to be best: use ACFs where applicable. Alternatively, if two sources give the same option, you may use the latter option to take an advanced version. (For instance, if two classes grant Uncanny Dodge, you may use the later one to take Improved Uncanny Dodge.)

Sometimes, however certain class/race choices, while highly flavorful, can provide poor mechanical results. As a DM, I would not necessarily give away free replacements. Taking an ACF or an upgrade is one thing, but saying "I get this twice, and I don't need two of them, can I take another thing instead?" just won't fly with me.

Look, I get that your Warforged Paladin is twice-immune to diseases. I'm not going to give you immunity to fire instead. It just doesn't make sense. (Side note, as stated above, there is a very nice ACF to replace that.)

We often make sacrifices for flavor. This, I would argue, is one of them.

[Spore]

As DM, I would pitch in some additional flavor, just to reward those characters with added flavor. I certainly wouldn't want to waste major class features for nothing in return.

(Or I would, but not with classes as "weak" as Paladins are. I have no problem derailing my sorcerers until they end up being tier 3ish.)

[Angelalex242]

Sacrifices for flavor often amount to making a low teir class even lower, in the way that some people make silly feat selections 'for flavor.'

The Warforged Paladin, well, maybe you grab features from pathfinder's Paladin, and he gets immunity to charms&compulsions for it (thus becoming more 'constructlike.')

I suggested poison immunity for the half celestial paladin because he already had a +4 to his poison save anyway, and it amounts to making his 5 percent chance of failure 0.

And giving him detect chaos 1/day instead of detect evil isn't going to break anyone's game.