[3.5] Building a wagon chase scene

[Dreadgrim]

Dear GIP forumers,

I am running an urban adventure, with the PGs escorting an item from the city's docks to a guildhouse. They were given an open wagon with four horses, and two drivers.

They are going to be ambushed in the way. First, some random guys with bows, then, I am planning to have an enemy wagon sprint after them and have the bad guys jumping at them.

The wagon is kind of long, 2x6 squares, and I will be relying on the Arms and Equipment guide to see speed and technical stuff (I seem to recall there is such a section there).

Only, I am unsure of how the rules handle this.. How should i handle attacks from a wagon to the other, as the both of them are running? What happens if the two wagons clash? What happens if the drivers die and the horses have no guidance? How much damage should a combatant take if they fall from the wagon?

It's a fair lot of doubts, and I am pretty sure I am chewing on a bone that is a little too hard for me as a DM, but I want to add some excitement to next session! I will be grateful for any insight that you are able to provide.

Dreadgrim

[lytokk]

Actually, I just got done reading the Arms and Equipment guide and most of that informations in there, including what happens when a driver dies, wagon to wagon combat, concentration and balance checks for spells and attacks.

[Dreadgrim]

That's kind of ironic, as I didn't remember about that too, only that there was technical stuff about the wagon itself. So thank you for pointing it out.

till, if somebody wants to add something, it will be very welcome. if nobody does I'll delete the thread in a couple days.

Cheers

[Dr. Azkur]

I'm not sure how much A&E covers, and I don't know how you plan to do it but I'll just speak my mind and say that in case you play with a map and grid, you leave the two wagons still in the map (preferably at the back) and have the road and obstacles move towards the wagons, unless you don't plan in putting many obstacles, and in such case I advice just completely forgoing the grid.

Combat changes little since both carts are moving and not just one, but if you wish, add small penalties to their ranged attacks. And rolling for balance from time to time.

Now I love including small clichés and common tropes in my campaigns, if you share this don't forget to include:

-A part with many innocent bystanders (a mother, baby in her arms at the middle of the road is a classic)

-The death of both drivers (Oh yeah, no one driving just means the horses keep going as if the driver was giving no instruction, so they keep their speed until they start getting tired, and if a turn has to be taken they pick the easiest, they're 4 smart animals, not brainless beasts)

-Have the carts enter some sort of building under construction and the like

-The destruction of a bridge (probably mid-crossing)

-A great jump in the end

Edit: If you're overwhelmed by the scene, just go slower, or tell them you're having a pause to gather your thoughts. Don't worry about the game losing tension because they're still in very much danger (A scene can go for hours and still be exciting if the danger factor is present).

Edit 2: Oh, I'd also love to know how the session/scene goes once you run it. Mind keeping me up to date?

[Evandar]

That is such a cool idea for an urban campaign. I'd love to know how the session goes as well.

If at all possible, the traditional scene where the hero is grasping the back of the villain's vehicle as they try to blast him off with firearms and finger-crunching stomps would be fantastic.

[Dr. Azkur]

That is such a cool idea for an urban campaign. I'd love to know how the session goes as well.

If at all possible, the traditional scene where the hero is grasping the back of the villain's vehicle as they try to blast him off with firearms and finger-crunching stomps would be fantastic.

Classic :smallamused:

[Dreadgrim]

Now I love including small clichés and common tropes in my campaigns

I totally share this, and I made a deck with some random situations that may pop during the chase:

Mob of people: PGs must choose to either slow down or trample some innocents

Low ceiling: Spot to see them coming, and crouch, if this falls it's either Reflex or take damage and fall. Any ideas about DC?

Street crossings and forks: not sure what kind of difference will make choosing a way or the other, but it feels right to include them. Also, there will be ramps to rise in level, as this is taking place in the bottom Sharn (any tips about having height make a difference in this situation?)

Bumpy road: Balance or fall prone, maybe even falling from wagon.

Other wagon coming the opposite way.

Guards approaching.

Friendly organization approaching.

Enemy reinforcements approaching.



That is such a cool idea for an urban campaign. I'd love to know how the session goes as well.

If at all possible, the traditional scene where the hero is grasping the back of the villain's vehicle as they try to blast him off with firearms and finger-crunching stomps would be fantastic.

Thank you. I would like that but I'm unsure of how, in the D&D rulings, could that situation arise. Combatants are unlikely to grapple and pin because those options are awfully handled. Only thing i can imagine is if somebody falls after a failed "bumpy road" Balance check.. I can allow a Reflex save to grab edge.

Anyway I'll make sure to tell you how the session went!


Bonus question: A&E explains things about trampling damage and crash damage, but how do I handle the horses that are in the front? It will be actually them taking and dealing that damage, so I am unsure about how the vehicle rules come into play.

- Dreadgrim

[Dr. Azkur]

Low ceiling: Spot to see them coming, and crouch, if this falls it's either Reflex or take damage and fall. Any ideas about DC?
- Dreadgrim

The DC should change depending on the speed of the wagon (and object, in case the object is moving too). 10-15 should be ok.



Street crossings and forks: not sure what kind of difference will make choosing a way or the other, but it feels right to include them. Also, there will be ramps to rise in level, as this is taking place in the bottom Sharn (any tips about having height make a difference in this situation?)
- Dreadgrim

I love making maps regardless of the campaign, maybe the current party will not go through right now a part of the city or country which I spent an afternoon designing, but maybe they will on the future, or maybe another party will, cause all of my campaigns occur in the same world. The greatest benefit of this is the consistency and feeling of reality it gives.

Otherwise the party could try to do a last-second turn on a fork to lose their pursuers. (After which obviously they come back)

And the difference about having height is that if they fall from the carriage they receive much more damage (PERIL!!!)



I would like that but I'm unsure of how, in the D&D rulings, could that situation arise. Combatants are unlikely to grapple and pin because those options are awfully handled. Only thing i can imagine is if somebody falls after a failed "bumpy road" Balance check.. I can allow a Reflex save to grab edge.
- Dreadgrim

Easy, first decide the reason the hanging hero would have to get in that situation (Maybe he tried to jump to the other carriage because his was on fire, because the bad guys got the item and are trying to get away, because the bad guys know they have no hope so they're trying to escape and the jumping hero tried to prevent that), he doesn't make the jump (make sure they can't fly to the other side, they have to JUMP!!) They fail that jump (you're a DM, you can arrange that), but they make the reflex save, so the hero is now hanging from the ledge with the bad guys pointing at him with weapons and probably goading.



Bonus question: A&E explains things about trampling damage and crash damage, but how do I handle the horses that are in the front? It will be actually them taking and dealing that damage, so I am unsure about how the vehicle rules come into play.
- Dreadgrim

Try to avoid killing, at least until the end, since if the horses die, the scene ends.

But otherwise I don't understand what you mean? The stats for horses are in the Animals chapter of the Monster Manual.

[Dreadgrim]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant to ask how to handle the trampling damage, but then I found it in A&E.

I wanted the enemies to have some construct horses so drivers can't be killed, and also because it fits them (they're a bunch of Warforged). I found the Equine Golem, again, in Arms & Equipment. What a great source! I was underestimating it. Well, just wanted to say it.

[Dreadgrim]

Evandar, as promised, here's how it went..

PCS are in 2x5 big wagon like the one in A&E, only uncovered
Enemies (warforged) are in 2x3 vehicle drew by Equine Golems (because freck it)

First round they have some ranged skirmish, as the enemies are trying to get close while keeping with them (speed was 50ft for both). Wizard wants to Scorching Ray a wheel. First thing unexpected, i think. I say fine. I go look in A&E to see that any piece of a carriage has 10hp and hardness 5 (AGAIN, THANK YOU A&E). Having told that the wheel was covered by a metal plate for protection, he does it anyway. AS it was a good idea and didn't want to see it wasted, i concede the ray to ignore hardness (and probably I should have done it anyway, as it was magic damage. I don't really know, it's the first time someone bothers to attack an inanimate object in the campaign). He manage to dislodge the plate and expose the wheel.

Second round they get close, enemies manage to kill one of the mercenary drivers that was driving the PC wagon. My aim is kill both'em so that the druid has to put to some use that Animal Empathy, for driving. Also, PCs were really wounded and didn't want to pound'em from far. But the wizards does it again, this time aims for the wheel. I again consider the wheel to have 10 hp and hardness 5. This time I take into account the hardness and tell him that he only damaged the wheel enough to slow down the others.

For this reason, third turn I make the two Big Baddies jump while the mooks try and shoot one lost arrow each. Big Baddie Raging Barbarian Warforged gets a 20 on jump check, and has there is no free space on the PC's wagon, he immediately has to overrun the party's warforged. They're both big and adamantine, but the baddie gets the upper hand. PC is knocked prone on the wagon for lack of space to go. The other bad guy (Warforged Soulknife) just gets enough Jump to hang on the carriage.

Fourth turn, party's barbarian attacks the enemy barbarian. 20. Confirm critical: 20. I already did this twice in this campaign, but now I'm pissed off that someone else pulled this on me XD. I remind them that forged have 25% chanche to ignore criticals, I roll but doesn't work. DC 30 Fortitude to not fall unconsious, it's too much. Huge enemy falls before doing anything. (I ruled this to not be instant death, you "just" go to -9) Wizard casts Grease on the edge where the other guy is hanging, I tell him I consider this as casting on an item. The enemy doesn't fall, but he decides to let go anyway, as he's in a horrible position and his ally fell.

So, not really a success I guess but we had fun. It ended too quickly to have me throwing away some of the PCs or have stuff like bystanders running from the front of the vehicles, but whatevs.

As I simulated this when I was home, I can tell you it's not that hard nor rule heavy to fight on a chase scene, just prepare a cheat sheet with technical stuff about the vehicles; if needed, another one about skills like Jump, Concentration (for spellcasting on the run), Animal Empathy or Profession (driver), and Balance; lastly another one about combat actions that are golden in those situations, namely Grappling, Overrunning (both for the characters and the vehicles that may pass through somebody's space), and Bull Rushing.

Hope this was useful. Cheers.

[Captnq]

A cart full of fruit.

You need to knock over a cart full of fruit.

Only one. Or like fourty. One is funny. Two, not so much. Fourty is a running gag.

[lytokk]

I've had that problem in many games. The PCs do things faster than you could have expected them to do. I always hate that.

[Psyren]

I know it's probably too late but Pathfinder has Chase Scene (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/chases) rules you could look at.

[Dreadgrim]

It's fine, Psyren, it will probably be useful for next time. Thank you :smallsmile: