Play testers needed!

[Hovannes]

Point System Gaming (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules)

Looking for play testers!


It’s been a long time coming, but the system is ready for testing. Although my friends and I have worked, reworked, and rewritten 6 times now, we need input from a fresh sets of eyes.

Point System Gaming (PSG) is a new non-level based fantasy gaming system. A complete set of rules that, hopefully, cover all the needed topics to run a campaign are free on the website (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/home). Additionally there are several dozen downloadable PDFs, most of which are free, that cover everything from Alchemy to a World Map.

Areas that need testing are;

Character generation (could use some help with character sheet development here)
Combat (easy to use, understand, with enough detail – or – to deadly?)
Magic system (ten different ‘schools’ accessed by both arcane and divine casters)
Psionics (designed to be simple yet functional)

For more experienced GMs and gamers, the section on the Nine Hells (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/the-nine-hells)could be an interesting setting. I am still working on the rules for actually PC devil or half-devil characters. Great fun for a Halloween gaming weekend.

Although all the core rules have already been added, I am still adding advance rules almost on a daily basis.

Comments, insight, and criticism are always welcome.

Thanks in advance;

[Morph Bark]

Interesting. I have some questions before reading into it.

1. Does the system presume a pre-generated campaign setting? Examples being Creation from Exalted and DnD's Forgotten Realms.

2. How much of the system is based on DnD?

3. How complex are the rules? They're easy to use, but are they easy to learn? How much ground do they cover? Do they require the DM making up a lot of things as he goes, are there easy-to-use mechanics that are used for everything, or do various actions have different mechanics tied to them?

4. How is the balance of non-magical characters versus magical characters? Do you have to pick at character creation whether your character can ever learn magic?

[Hovannes]

Morph;

1. Does the system presume a pre-generated campaign setting? Examples being Creation from Exalted and DnD's Forgotten Realms.

I have a complete and detailed world called Equran, and am currently putting together a ‘Module’ adventure for starting players. My objective was to see if the actual system is functional, rather than the setting at this stage of play testing.

2. How much of the system is based on DnD?

Let’s face it, even with its imperfections, DnD was the most popular role playing game. So yes, it is similar to DnD – the older editions (my favorite). The key difference is the lack of actual levels, and everything that goes with levels. The second difference is non-static stat dice. Stat dice focus on the potential (gauged by different sided dice (d4-d12)) rather than a flat stat rating like Str:13, Int:11 etc. The third major difference is the magic systems, though a series of spells are pre-written, the system encourages the players to modify or write their own.

3. How complex are the rules? They're easy to use, but are they easy to learn? How much ground do they cover? Do they require the DM making up a lot of things as he goes, are there easy-to-use mechanics that are used for everything, or do various actions have different mechanics tied to them?

Several questions here –
Complexity – Stats, in concept are the same with the addition of perception, appearance, and luck for a total of 9 stats. They are broken down into three categories, physical, mental, and social/spiritual. From these are derived the character’s resistances and stats are paired with skill and combat checks for the foundation of the mechanics. Most players pick it up in about 20-30 minutes. The magic system takes a bit longer to read and digest (2-3 hours on average).
Are the rules complete? – Yes, they cover virtually everything that DnD does, with additional rules to make the GM’s job easier under the GM’s section/pages. Many of the rules have built-in optional rules (in blue) that can be used by a GM to ‘set’ his own ‘house rules’, but most of these arbitrations can be done during game play.
Mechanics – I have tried to keep them consistent throughout the system. Lower dice (D4) often signify a basic/marginal ability, skill, or resistance value, while a higher dice (D12) the exceptional. Stats and skills (including combat skills) are commonly rolled as a set. Example: A character with a D8 in dexterity and a D4 in Climbing skill would roll D8 + D4 to achieve a Target Difficulty (TD) set by the GM for success. Meeting or exceeding the TD indicates success. Of course, these base rolls can be modified (+1, +2, etc.) for magical items, situational modifiers, etc.

4. How is the balance of non-magical characters versus magical characters? Do you have to pick at character creation whether your character can ever learn magic?

Balance is a tough concept in role-playing games; each GM sees the world, and rules, a bit differently. One of the major aspects of play testing is determining balance, and our group has done much to minimize the disparities between classes. That said, races, vocations, and abilities are NOT created equal. What is equal, is the ability to make choices for a given character and his/her development. Each such choice will open up new areas, while at the same time remove some options. If anything, individual choice is the hallmark of this gaming system.

A character can learn magic or psionics as the game progresses, though it is a bit easier during character generation.

[Hovannes]

Just Added the First Adventure Module - Ancient Blood (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/world-of-equran/module-ancient-blood) to the website. It is designed as a beginning module for the gaming system. Set along a river that winds its way through a lush forest, it allows the adventurers to visit villages and encounter creatures as they travel. The goal of the module is to deliver a ransom and retrieve a nobleman’s daughter from pirates. Witches and assassins make thing a bit more interesting.

Although I have played and DMed many such modules, this is my first attempt at creating one.

I welcome your opinions and comments.

[Hovannes]

Just completed the 2nd Adventure Module: Hidden Treasure (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/world-of-equran/hidden-treasure). With a few months for the character to recover from the first adventure, Ancient Blood, this adventure takes them to a tropical island filled with strange lizards into the underground caves. These magically augmented lizards are the product of the secret Brotherhood of the Serpent outpost.

I have also added several pre-generated characters for Ancient Blood (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/world-of-equran/module-ancient-blood), which will be updated for Hidden Treasure in a few days.

[Soliloquy]

I would recommend making a PDF for the core rules, and not just have it on the site.
Race tables say Pre instead of Per

[Hovannes]

Good idea Soliloquy, I will work put some downloadable PDF's, perhaps in book format, on each page. That should make things easier to print out and do game prep.

[Hovannes]

Based on player feedback I have updated all the magical spells and rituals on the website.

Lots of other areas that needed minor corrections, and most of those have also been updated.

Thanks to all those that wrote in and provided insight.

[Kamai]

I'm trying to make a test character, and I have a couple of thoughts/questions.
1) Having a list of Enhancements/talents that are sorted by type would be really helpful. More so if you could fit a short description with them.
2) Is the Bard a complete class? I found the Vocation enhancement, I found a couple of enhancements that starting level characters probably can't get their hands on, but I can't find any of the Bardic effects.
2a) Even with the Bardic effects, it seems like I would be spending 2 skill points to get basic proficiency in Bard abilities, one for the mundane artform, and one for the bardic artform. I'm not sure if this is intended or not.
3) The first thing I was wanting to jump to was the sling (because Halfling), but looking at that group, I see no reason to actually use a sling. Is there something I'm missing?
4) You really should take another pass at your armors. Since they all give the same Deflection/Resistance bonuses within a class, it's a matter of picking the least penalties that you can afford. [In light, Padded, Medium, Hide, Heavy Splint or Banded unless you're a dwarf] What's the point of having the rest of the armors around?
5) I'm frankly not sure how I'm supposed to get in the "flavor" skills that you suggest people having, but at the same time, also get skills to be competent. Even with 3 everyman skills, and 3 other skills, it seems incredibly difficult to do.

Some things I like at first glance:
Magic. I do really like the Mage the Awakening style of Magic, flowing in multiple schools to build an effect, while still having some prebuilt spells. It's also nice that Mages have to invest in more ability scores than mundanes to have a variety of big things.
Combat seems pretty simple for the most part.
You seem to have borrowed a lot of the cool old parts, especially what looks like a decent henchmen system.

I might have more to say after I finish making a first character.

[inuyasha]

Some questions, this is a cool system though

1. Where are the monster stats :eek: I don't see hard stats, but i might just not be looking hard enough.
2. once i've learned the system by studying (i probably can't playtest idk) can I homebrew for it?

[Hovannes]

Kamai;

First of all, thank you very much for your interest and insightful questions. I will try to answer them all.

I'm trying to make a test character, and I have a couple of thoughts/questions.

1) Having a list of Enhancements/talents that are sorted by type would be really helpful. More so if you could fit a short description with them. Will Do, should have it up on the website (downloads) today.

2) Is the Bard a complete class? I found the Vocation enhancement, I found a couple of enhancements that starting level characters probably can't get their hands on, but I can't find any of the Bardic effects. Yes, I am still working on these presently. I will post an old copy of a couple of effects that have been completed as a reference. I will try to get all of the effects posted within a few days. The PDF can be downloaded at the bottom of the Bard’s page (Bard – Songs).

2a) Even with the Bardic effects, it seems like I would be spending 2 skill points to get basic proficiency in Bard abilities, one for the mundane artform, and one for the bardic artform. I'm not sure if this is intended or not. Bard Magical Mastery (bard only magical function) requires the direct expenditure of experience points to progress. Each field (singing, dancing, strings, woodwinds, etc) also has a corresponding skill that is required. So you are correct, both are required to actually ‘create’ magical effects. Considering that Bards can employ these effects at will, the total experience cost for these abilities are lower than Arcane and Divine casters.

3) The first thing I was wanting to jump to was the sling (because Halfling), but looking at that group, I see no reason to actually use a sling. Is there something I'm missing? Are you referring to the amount of damage the sling produces compared to the crossbows in the group? Or, perhaps you are saying that you do not wish to take the entire group of weapons when you only intend to use the sling in-game? I do agree that Sling is perhaps not the best addition to this group. What would your recommendation be for a different group for the sling? Finally, there is a Talent (weapons of choice) that can be used to gain proficiency with two different weapons from any group. This may be preferable in this case rather than taking two entire weapon group proficiencies.

4) You really should take another pass at your armors. Since they all give the same Deflection/Resistance bonuses within a class, it's a matter of picking the least penalties that you can afford. [In light, Padded, Medium, Hide, Heavy Splint or Banded unless you're a dwarf] What's the point of having the rest of the armors around? Sharp eye here, as you have already deduced the difference between various types of armor within a category do not seem to be great, and min-maxing will take place in some games. However, even a small difference in movement, skill checks, or magical casting can be an area of concern. My goal with armor was to make the armor class and physical damage reduction calculations very easy – to facilitate combat rolls. Perhaps I made them too simple?

5) I'm frankly not sure how I'm supposed to get in the "flavor" skills that you suggest people having, but at the same time, also get skills to be competent. Even with 3 everyman skills, and 3 other skills, it seems incredibly difficult to do.

Starting characters receive a basic proficiency (D4 rating) in all 10 everyman skills, and are able to ‘boost’ three of those to higher ratings. Non-humans receive 1, and in most cases, 2 additional racial specific skills. Humans gain a bonus skill (or slot if you will) of choice. Finally, all races receive three free skill (slots) at the start of the game. Oh, almost forgot, many races also gain a bonus language as well.

A starting character gains a total of 10 (everyman base) + 3 (everyman boosts), +1 to +2 racial skills + 3 skills of choice. He will have a minimum of 12 different skill if he uses all of his slots to boost skill to their maximum ratings at start. Alternately, he could have a total of 14 (or 15 if non-human) different skills at D4, with 3 everyman skills at D6. To be honest, I love having lots of skill when I create a character, and this is the first area of concern when experience points are gained after the start of the game. Skills often give the biggest bang for the buck with respect to improvement experience costs. Some talents and enhancements also grant bonuses to skills, and some of these can be taken at the start of the game.

Some things I like at first glance:
Magic. I do really like the Mage the Awakening style of Magic, flowing in multiple schools to build an effect, while still having some prebuilt spells. It's also nice that Mages have to invest in more ability scores than mundanes to have a variety of big things.
Combat seems pretty simple for the most part.
You seem to have borrowed a lot of the cool old parts, especially what looks like a decent henchmen system.

I might have more to say after I finish making a first character.


Again thanks for the input. I can also e-mail you my old bard-songs list (v6.0, 30+ magical effects if memory serves) if you want them prior to the updated posting on the website.

[Hovannes]

Inuyasha;

You can find a complete list of ‘monsters’ with the standard 9 stats as a downloadable PDF here (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/core-rules---downloads). I will be posting additional downloads (dragons) soon. Further, a download pack (with extensive societal information) for Lizardmen, Nagas, Orcs, Gnolls, and a few other races that have been modified for play on Equran will also be available very soon.

I also have a list of Devils that control the Nine Hells here (bottom of the page) (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/the-nine-hells/hierarchy-9-hells). The full ‘monster’ profile for these creatures I can send, if you wish, in an e-mail.

Any input/suggestions you have for monsters, spells, rituals, etc. - let me know. All insight/criticism is helpful and new additions welcome.

[Kamai]

Kamai;

2a) Even with the Bardic effects, it seems like I would be spending 2 skill points to get basic proficiency in Bard abilities, one for the mundane artform, and one for the bardic artform. I'm not sure if this is intended or not. Bard Magical Mastery (bard only magical function) requires the direct expenditure of experience points to progress. Each field (singing, dancing, strings, woodwinds, etc) also has a corresponding skill that is required. So you are correct, both are required to actually ‘create’ magical effects. Considering that Bards can employ these effects at will, the total experience cost for these abilities are lower than Arcane and Divine casters.

I believe you when you say it balances out. There's just 0 indication of there being any access to any of the abilities to start with, which is where I assumed it was an extra skill that unlocked by having ranks in the mundane skill and Bardic Talent.



3) The first thing I was wanting to jump to was the sling (because Halfling), but looking at that group, I see no reason to actually use a sling. Is there something I'm missing? Are you referring to the amount of damage the sling produces compared to the crossbows in the group? Or, perhaps you are saying that you do not wish to take the entire group of weapons when you only intend to use the sling in-game? I do agree that Sling is perhaps not the best addition to this group. What would your recommendation be for a different group for the sling? Finally, there is a Talent (weapons of choice) that can be used to gain proficiency with two different weapons from any group. This may be preferable in this case rather than taking two entire weapon group proficiencies.

I'm using the weapon slots from the vocation to get these weapon slots. Unless I'm misunderstanding, weapon slots give the whole group when going for the d4 and d6 level, and then specialize for the d8+ level. I don't mind it being part of the group, but between 2 damage (which means you can't add strength dice), and shorter range than the crossbow, and no armor piercing. Given how a sling works and your mechanics, maybe just give it d4 (d4-1 with rocks instead of specially prepared bullets).

As far as groups, I would put it closer to a thrown weapons group, but since one doesn't exist, the closest would be small or blunt.



4) You really should take another pass at your armors. Since they all give the same Deflection/Resistance bonuses within a class, it's a matter of picking the least penalties that you can afford. [In light, Padded, Medium, Hide, Heavy Splint or Banded unless you're a dwarf] What's the point of having the rest of the armors around? Sharp eye here, as you have already deduced the difference between various types of armor within a category do not seem to be great, and min-maxing will take place in some games. However, even a small difference in movement, skill checks, or magical casting can be an area of concern. My goal with armor was to make the armor class and physical damage reduction calculations very easy – to facilitate combat rolls. Perhaps I made them too simple?


Maybe a bit too simple. Even something as simple (in the light armor's case) of having a 1/1, 2/0, and 0/2 armor makes there be choices, all of which are still inferior to medium armor's 2/2 (which it seems like you've tried a bit with Ring Mail). Basic things like Rule of 7 against you becomes Rule of 8, your wounds are easier to treat (soft model of subdual damage), or you don't take penalties on specific skills start to distinguish them as sidegrades.

To just emphasize the problem, why would I ever wear a suit of full plate? It's iconic in this sort of fantasy, but it is the worst heavy armor. Now if Full plate was 3/2 with 1 point of Universal Damage Reduction? Now we might be on to something. Still not amazing, but a reason for existing now.

[Hovannes]

Finally finished the Talents & Enhancements index PDFs. They are ordered by category and each items has a description for quick reference (see the download page (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/core-rules---downloads)). You are correct Kamai, they do make things easier.

Crunching numbers on the Sling & Armor, modifications forthcoming.

[Hovannes]

Finally completed and uploaded Bard Magical powers on the Bard Page (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/core-rules---special-vocations/bard). An index ordered by category and a complete description of powers listed alphabetically can be downloaded. A total of 45 powers exist currently, but I am open to submissions should anyone want to add to the list.

I have also clarified the rules regarding the acquisition of bard magical powers, most of which are highlighted on the same page.

Thanks, Kamai for your suggestions on this topic.

[Kamai]

Just a quick thing that I suspected, Martial Competence requires 13+ hit points to take. I tried looking at your prebuild to figure out how I could get the requirement without the vocation, and even he only has 9 hit points without the vocation bonus (8 base, +1 Athletic). It would probably be clearest to drop it to 8 hit points required.

Speaking of hit points, Bard's lore requirement is nasty at 17 hit points, especially with how few things outside of Martial Competence give hit points. If it were me, I'd look at Gather Information d8 + 2 local history at d6. Puts it as a higher level enhancement, without using the weird hp progression. On this note, you may want to pass through class enhancements/talents again, and just make sure that people are progressing on hp enough to be able to take high level talents without too many oddities. I'd be worried specifically about the Stealthy Pilfering class.

Finally, bardic music concepts:
A focusing song, probably within strings. Affected allies not in combat can reroll 1s, 2s at d10+.
There's nothing that really feels like the Pied Piper (drawing in animals). Ideally, this should be a large area of effect (maybe scaling to 1/2 mile at d12), drawing in a specific type of non-domesticated animal, and only giving the command "Come to me".
Maybe a song (Woodwind or Storytelling class, depending on whether you can just change the shape or make the fire itself move or a danger to nearby things) that gives the bard some control over an already existing fire?
A dance that focuses on yourself (and some allies at higher rank) dodging projectiles?
Conversation shroud: A quietly talked conversation within the range is drowned out by the bardic music, changing the Listen DC to the bard's activation roll. Louder conversations decrease the listen DC.
Light step: The bard (and only the bard) gets to ignore some amount of difficult terrain, and is treated as some percent lighter for walking over traps/weak surfaces.

I'll keep looking here and there. Once it gets past some oddities besides typos (which I'm still seeing a lot), I might try to see if I can get some others to look at it, and maybe run a one-shot.

[Hovannes]

You are correct, the HP requirement is difficult, especially at character generation. And, I thought about dropping it to 8 before, but would rather find a way to provide extra hit points at start, perhaps through a background talent or enhancement. Then one would run into a shortage of enhancements to flush out the vocation chosen. It may be easier to simply give everyone 10 or 12 hit points at start rather than 8. That would increase survivability as well.

I have also been looking at some of the HP requirements for various abilities, and they do seem a bit elevated (bard lore is a good example). I do not want to force player to ‘purchase’ hit point generating talents or enhancements just to gain access to these abilities. If players think they can survive with a smaller number of hit points then it’s their choice. Perhaps a combination of methods can be employed to make things fit a bit better. I want to review all the vocations and clarify the bonuses and abilities gained.

Bard music concepts:
To be honest, this is not a fully completed list. I had already decided to add more. Give me a week or so and you will see your suggestions, which are very good, implemented.

[Kamai]

If I were taking a shot at this, I would look to try to keep requirements like so:
Weapon Combat: HP/Weapon skills
Magic: Number of learned schools/highest school rank/Faith rank
Non-Combat: Ranks in skills

In this setup, that means the people who need hp will have some buffer, and others will basically have to go out of their way to be tough.

You comment on upping base hp for survivability. However, in your basic description, you seem to want a pretty significantly lethal system. At the same time, I think your baseline for damage is d8+d6-1, which averages 7 damage. Nearly 50% of the time, the baseline person's down for the count. I'm not sure whether the right solution is dying-dead thresholds, or more max hp, though.

[Hovannes]

I am currently refocusing on the enhancements, all 279 of them. I am minimizing the HP requirement, and as you suggested keeping them mostly for the Combat enhancements. This coupled with the increase from 8 to 12 starting hit points greatly increases survivability. I have also increased the number of talents and enhancement that grant additional hit points.

Magic enhancements also needed some clarification and many contained typos (which are being corrected).

The average starting Hit Points for characters has been increased by 30-40% and with the additional hit points that can be gained through talents and enhancements; this should provide a overall boost of 45-60% in hit points and consequently survivability.

I should be finished with the corrections to enhancements by the end of this week, with talents to follow a few days later.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

[Hovannes]

Kamai, just added four more bard songs to the list.

Follow Me
Fire Flit
Kamai’s Cascading Cover
Talking Drums

Check them out if you get a chance, and thanks for the great song ideas.

[Hovannes]

Just updated all 146 Talents and over 200 Enhancements for Point System Fantasy. Version 6.22, along with index pages are ready for download here ------->Core Rules – Downloads. (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/core-rules---downloads)

Submissions for additional talents and enhancements are welcome.

[Hovannes]

Kamai;

Just updated the spells to include 5 new ones that were inspired by your suggestions. Have a look and let me know what you think.

Indices and full (168) spell descriptions can be found here  Core Rules – Downloads.
(https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/core-rules---downloads)
Again thanks for your insightful input.

[Hovannes]

Just added a list of professional and non-professional vocational titles to the site. I am looking to expand this list; it currently favors the spell casting vocations. Any suggestions are welcome. Here is the link to the Titles Page (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/faq/character-generation-guide/character-titles).

[Hovannes]

Point System Gaming – Fantasy character sheet is now complete. I developed it in Microsoft Excel and added as may drop down list as possible to make the drudgery of filling out a character sheet less painful. Viewing the character sheet on-line makes it appear more complex that it actually is; downloading is recommended. Character sheets can be found both on the Character Generation Guide (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/faq/character-generation-guide)(bottom) and Core Rules Download (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/core-rules---downloads) pages.

As always suggestions and comments welcome.

[GGambrel]

I am inspired by your website. I had the idea a little while ago to create one for a game that I am currently designing, and am pleased to see someone else engaged in this endeavor (and much further along). :smallsmile:

I think a combat example would be a nice addition to make the rules clearer and illustrate how different aspects of the character sheet are implemented. (Combat Order, Actions, Rolls - and what affects them, Damage, HP, etc.)

I find the large number of optional rules alongside the core rules somewhat distracting. Maybe optional rules could be kept in a separate (or later) section specifically for GMs or more experienced players.

Also I'm curious, once your game is complete, how do you plan to get the word out about it?

[Hovannes]

If you are developing a game you already know that its never truly finished - for me the passion to create is the driving force. Thank you for your kind words.

A combat example is a great idea (I think I have one buried somewhere in the rules), and I will make a hyperlink to it in the character generation section for easy access.

You are not the first to state that the rules can become cumbersome, especially with the optional rules thrown in; my goal was to provide more not less. I should have segregated the optional rules, perhaps in a different column. That way it would not disrupt the reader as easily. The idea is a good one but the sheer number of pages that would have to be modified is quite large and require some time. I have a few other changes in mind as well and will implement them in the next version.

Again thanks for the input;